Religious Textualism and the Sabbath

[Reluctant Watchman]

I have two questions to cover with this post, both highlighted in blue below. Here's a bit of background as to where these questions came from.

Yesterday I used the word “Sabbath” in a social media post. This is how my comment began: “A few thoughts to ponder on this Sabbath.” From there, I shared my viewpoint on how we often misinterpret Amos 3:7 and D&C 1:38. The most important aspect being the idea that we should validate the words of any man through a witness of the Holy Ghost. What was strange though was the response I received from one man. He essentially stated that since I was striving to listen to the HG I surely wouldn’t call the 1st day of the week the Sabbath. He was alluding to the fact that I was calling the wrong day the Sabbath.

I responded that I felt the Lord was ok w/ my worshipping on Sunday, and that I was happy that he had chosen a different day to call the Sabbath. He then chimed in stating that he thought I was a “textualist” and proceeded to state his opinion that it was a commandment to worship on Saturday. My responses must have rubbed him the wrong way because he felt it necessary to tell me that he “unfriended” me and then blocked me. (How did we become so fragile btw?)

For context, this is the definition of a Textualist: “a person who adheres strictly to a text, especially that of religious scriptures.”

So here are my questions:

#1: Do you see yourself as being a Religious Textualist and would you ever use that phrase to strengthen your viewpoint on supposed doctrines and worship practices?

#2: How do you define the Sabbath and is a person breaking a commandment by worshipping on a day other than Saturday?

As a footnote, the man I’m referring to is very well-known in certain Mormon circles (he’s not LDS) and is one of the preeminent collectors of Mormon historical artifacts.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The following verses came up in my morning study. This section of the Nemenhah Record teaches about piercing the veil, communing with the Lord, and being born of the Spirit. It then transitions to how parents teach their children to apply those principles. I think all of this is important, but the last verse connects with my heart. We don't just worship one day, but every day becomes a Sabbath unto us:

64) It is for this cause that the mothers and the fathers of the children of the Nemenhah do teach their little ones to set aside all distraction and to ponder and meditate upon holy things.

65) And this exercise is most instructive, for it teaches a great principle. Yea, it gives the young person much experience in casting off the things of the world and in preparing to see the face of the Peacemaker.

66) Wherefore, every Nemenhah sets apart a portion of each day and spends it in this pursuit. Yea, every day becomes a Sabbath to them and every table an altar.

[Cruiserdude]

I have two questions to cover with this post, both highlighted in blue below. Here's a bit of background as to where these questions came from.

Yesterday I used the word “Sabbath” in a social media post. This is how my comment began: “A few thoughts to ponder on this Sabbath.” From there, I shared my viewpoint on how we often misinterpret Amos 3:7 and D&C 1:38. The most important aspect being the idea that we should validate the words of any man through a witness of the Holy Ghost. What was strange though was the response I received from one man. He essentially stated that since I was striving to listen to the HG I surely wouldn’t call the 1st day of the week the Sabbath. He was alluding to the fact that I was calling the wrong day the Sabbath.

I responded that I felt the Lord was ok w/ my worshipping on Sunday, and that I was happy that he had chosen a different day to call the Sabbath. He then chimed in stating that he thought I was a “textualist” and proceeded to state his opinion that it was a commandment to worship on Saturday. My responses must have rubbed him the wrong way because he felt it necessary to tell me that he “unfriended” me and then blocked me. (How did we become so fragile btw?)

For context, this is the definition of a Textualist: “a person who adheres strictly to a text, especially that of religious scriptures.”

So here are my questions:

#1: Do you see yourself as being a Religious Textualist and would you ever use that phrase to strengthen your viewpoint on supposed doctrines and worship practices?

#2: How do you define the Sabbath and is a person breaking a commandment by worshipping on a day other than Saturday?

As a footnote, the man I’m referring to is very well-known in certain Mormon circles (he’s not LDS) and is one of the preeminent collectors of Mormon historical artifacts.

Anyone can label me whatever they want, I know how the Lord labels me and that's really the only thing that matters to me.
While I can appreciate the importance folks' put on the many different details involving religion, I can tell you from my own personal experience, and it's my personal opinion based on those experiences, the Lord truly looks upon our hearts ABOVE ALL OTHER THINGS. It is my sincere belief that we vastly underestimate the mercy, and subsequent peace that comes when we do see and realize that mercy, that is allotted us when we sincerely and consciously turn our hearts and lives over to Him. When our hearts are converted to Him, it's almost as if everyday, in a sense, becomes the 'Sabbath'. We're constantly on His errand, everything we do is with a focus on Him. We go to work and do the things we have to do as part of this temporal existence, BUT we do those things with our focus and our hearts turned to Him and serving our fellow men. And if there are things in our day to day life that don't jive with being a disciple of Him, we remove those things. In essence, we do live our life 'unto the Lord'.

Edit: and I just now see the post after your OP and that's funny that I got basically the same thoughts that you quote from the nemenhah record

[TwochurchesOnly]

On a lighter note-
"Religious Textualism and the Sabbath"
sounds like mosaic law
No texting on the sabbath

[Reluctant Watchman]

Anyone can label me whatever they want, I know how the Lord labels me and that's really the only thing that matters to me.
While I can appreciate the importance folks' put on the many different details involving religion, I can tell you from my own personal experience, and it's my personal opinion based on those experiences, the Lord truly looks upon our hearts ABOVE ALL OTHER THINGS. It is my sincere belief that we vastly underestimate the mercy, and subsequent peace that comes when we do see and realize that mercy, that is allotted us when we sincerely and consciously turn our hearts and lives over to Him. When our hearts are converted to Him, it's almost as if everyday, in a sense, becomes the 'Sabbath'. We're constantly on His errand, everything we do is with a focus on Him. We go to work and do the things we have to do as part of this temporal existence, BUT we do those things with our focus and our hearts turned to Him and serving our fellow men. And if there are things in our day to day life that don't jive with being a disciple of Him, we remove those things. In essence, we do live our life 'unto the Lord'.

Edit: and I just now see the post after your OP and that's funny that I got basically the same thoughts that you quote from the nemenhah record

Thanks for the additional framing and context. I agree. The Lord is interested in our intent. He cares that our outward expressions convey the inward commitment of our deeper, more intimate, nature.

[marc]

He then chimed in stating that he thought I was a “textualist” and proceeded to state his opinion that it was a commandment to worship on Saturday.

God never commanded anyone to worship on a day based on the Gregorian calendar that identifies pagan gods. Saturday was never the Sabbath day appointed by Him. This is why:

REMEMBER the Sabbath (not that Sabbath).

[Reluctant Watchman]

On a lighter note-
"Religious Textualism and the Sabbath"
sounds like mosaic law
No texting on the sabbath

I actually had that thought. In one of my replies, I alluded to the idea that our disagreement was based upon the idea of the letter vs. the spirit of the law. Very similar to mosaic law.

[Reluctant Watchman]

He then chimed in stating that he thought I was a “textualist” and proceeded to state his opinion that it was a commandment to worship on Saturday.

God never commanded anyone to worship on a day based on the Gregorian calendar that identifies pagan gods. Saturday was never the Sabbath day appointed by Him. This is why:

REMEMBER the Sabbath (not that Sabbath).

Ah, thanks for that. It seems this has been on your mind lately.

[marc]

For those who have read my blog on the Lunar Sabbath, Joseph Smith received the following revelation on August 7, 1831. Guess what was special about "this" day given in the passage below on August 7, 1831?

D&C 59:9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day
10 For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High;
11 Nevertheless thy vows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times;
12 But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.

It was New Moon Day! https://mooncalendar.astro-seek.com/tot ... ugust-1831

[Reluctant Watchman]

The culture of the Nemenhah is pretty straight forward, one day in seven.

9) And we also go up to the lodge of the Meeting Place to celebrate one day in seven. Yea, we go to the lodge to pray and to sing together, and to listen to instruction. It is in the lodge that we are instructed of all that does take place in the Temple.

[TwochurchesOnly]

The culture of the Nemenhah is pretty straight forward, one day in seven.

9) And we also go up to the lodge of the Meeting Place to celebrate one day in seven. Yea, we go to the lodge to pray and to sing together, and to listen to instruction. It is in the lodge that we are instructed of all that does take place in the Temple.

"... to celebrate.."
sounds wonderful, joyous
".. instructed of all that does take place in the Temple"
Sounds like they had true doctrine/temple worship - a house of learning

So, no gag-order needed to forbid ( on threat of life/salvation ) speaking of the super secret" sacred" temple rituals

[Reluctant Watchman]

"... to celebrate.."
sounds wonderful, joyous
".. instructed of all that does take place in the Temple"
Sounds like they had true doctrine/temple worship - a house of learning

So, no gag-order needed to forbid ( on threat of life/salvation ) speaking of the super secret" sacred" temple rituals

After reading about and pondering their temple experience I can never look at what had become of the LDS rituals and ever feel comfortable about going today. It actually breaks my heart to see what it has become. For the Nemenhah, they taught all the doctrine and "pillars" (aka laws) to their children from the time they could learn. Anyone who wanted to approach the Lord and covenant with Him was invited to do so. Leaders were servants and teachers, not gatekeepers. The only thing "secret" about the experience was any instruction the Lord may have given to an individual as they pierced the veil... and I'm not talking about a cloth or fabric. It was often recorded that the second anointed involved specific instruction to the individual from the Lord, only to be shared when moved upon by the Spirit.

[BeNotDeceived]

I have two questions to cover with this post, both highlighted in blue below. Here's a bit of background as to where these questions came from.

Yesterday I used the word “Sabbath” in a social media post. This is how my comment began: “A few thoughts to ponder on this Sabbath.” From there, I shared my viewpoint on how we often misinterpret Amos 3:7 and D&C 1:38. The most important aspect being the idea that we should validate the words of any man through a witness of the Holy Ghost. What was strange though was the response I received from one man. He essentially stated that since I was striving to listen to the HG I surely wouldn’t call the 1st day of the week the Sabbath. He was alluding to the fact that I was calling the wrong day the Sabbath.

I responded that I felt the Lord was ok w/ my worshipping on Sunday, and that I was happy that he had chosen a different day to call the Sabbath. He then chimed in stating that he thought I was a “textualist” and proceeded to state his opinion that it was a commandment to worship on Saturday. My responses must have rubbed him the wrong way because he felt it necessary to tell me that he “unfriended” me and then blocked me. (How did we become so fragile btw?)

For context, this is the definition of a Textualist: “a person who adheres strictly to a text, especially that of religious scriptures.”

So here are my questions:

#1: Do you see yourself as being a Religious Textualist and would you ever use that phrase to strengthen your viewpoint on supposed doctrines and worship practices?

#2: How do you define the Sabbath and is a person breaking a commandment by worshipping on a day other than Saturday?

As a footnote, the man I’m referring to is very well-known in certain Mormon circles (he’s not LDS) and is one of the preeminent collectors of Mormon historical artifacts.

Ya can’t block and unfriend the DS forever, because God will not be mocked.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Ya can’t block and unfriend the DS forever, because God will not be mocked.

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure this man is not the DS.

[BeNotDeceived]

Ya can’t block and unfriend the DS forever, because God will not be mocked.

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure this man is not the DS.

The true gospel includes the BOM, but anything after that is circumspect.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The true gospel includes the BOM, but anything after that is circumspect.

The gospel of Christ is contained in many volumes of "scripture", all written by man and may contain imperfections.

[~ternal-tummim]

God never commanded anyone to worship on a day based on the Gregorian calendar that identifies pagan gods. Saturday was never the Sabbath day appointed by Him. This is why:

REMEMBER the Sabbath (not that Sabbath).

Re: calendars and sabbath days: best ever post!
Peak scholarship, good graphics, and great Holy Ghost,
One loose end is the dangling catch-up “30” date,
Add note on that and post shall reach teleos state.

[Robin Hood]

I have two questions to cover with this post, both highlighted in blue below. Here's a bit of background as to where these questions came from.

Yesterday I used the word “Sabbath” in a social media post. This is how my comment began: “A few thoughts to ponder on this Sabbath.” From there, I shared my viewpoint on how we often misinterpret Amos 3:7 and D&C 1:38. The most important aspect being the idea that we should validate the words of any man through a witness of the Holy Ghost. What was strange though was the response I received from one man. He essentially stated that since I was striving to listen to the HG I surely wouldn’t call the 1st day of the week the Sabbath. He was alluding to the fact that I was calling the wrong day the Sabbath.

I responded that I felt the Lord was ok w/ my worshipping on Sunday, and that I was happy that he had chosen a different day to call the Sabbath. He then chimed in stating that he thought I was a “textualist” and proceeded to state his opinion that it was a commandment to worship on Saturday. My responses must have rubbed him the wrong way because he felt it necessary to tell me that he “unfriended” me and then blocked me. (How did we become so fragile btw?)

For context, this is the definition of a Textualist: “a person who adheres strictly to a text, especially that of religious scriptures.”

So here are my questions:

#1: Do you see yourself as being a Religious Textualist and would you ever use that phrase to strengthen your viewpoint on supposed doctrines and worship practices?

#2: How do you define the Sabbath and is a person breaking a commandment by worshipping on a day other than Saturday?

As a footnote, the man I’m referring to is very well-known in certain Mormon circles (he’s not LDS) and is one of the preeminent collectors of Mormon historical artifacts.

Sunday is not the Sabbath and should not be referred to as such.
Sunday is referred to as the Lord’s Day. Sabbath refers specifically to the seventh day, and Sunday is not the seventh day.
Incidently, the Sabbath was not really about worship. It was about respecting God, considering the Torah, and resting from work. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I have two questions to cover with this post, both highlighted in blue below. Here's a bit of background as to where these questions came from.

Yesterday I used the word “Sabbath” in a social media post. This is how my comment began: “A few thoughts to ponder on this Sabbath.” From there, I shared my viewpoint on how we often misinterpret Amos 3:7 and D&C 1:38. The most important aspect being the idea that we should validate the words of any man through a witness of the Holy Ghost. What was strange though was the response I received from one man. He essentially stated that since I was striving to listen to the HG I surely wouldn’t call the 1st day of the week the Sabbath. He was alluding to the fact that I was calling the wrong day the Sabbath.

I responded that I felt the Lord was ok w/ my worshipping on Sunday, and that I was happy that he had chosen a different day to call the Sabbath. He then chimed in stating that he thought I was a “textualist” and proceeded to state his opinion that it was a commandment to worship on Saturday. My responses must have rubbed him the wrong way because he felt it necessary to tell me that he “unfriended” me and then blocked me. (How did we become so fragile btw?)

For context, this is the definition of a Textualist: “a person who adheres strictly to a text, especially that of religious scriptures.”

So here are my questions:

#1: Do you see yourself as being a Religious Textualist and would you ever use that phrase to strengthen your viewpoint on supposed doctrines and worship practices?

#2: How do you define the Sabbath and is a person breaking a commandment by worshipping on a day other than Saturday?

As a footnote, the man I’m referring to is very well-known in certain Mormon circles (he’s not LDS) and is one of the preeminent collectors of Mormon historical artifacts.

Sunday is not the Sabbath and should not be referred to as such.
Sunday is referred to as the Lord’s Day. Sabbath refers specifically to the seventh day, and Sunday is not the seventh day.
Incidently, the Sabbath was not really about worship. It was about respecting God, considering the Torah, and resting from work. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

So you worship on “the Lord’s day”, but you don’t honor the Sabbath?

[Robin Hood]

I have two questions to cover with this post, both highlighted in blue below. Here's a bit of background as to where these questions came from.

Yesterday I used the word “Sabbath” in a social media post. This is how my comment began: “A few thoughts to ponder on this Sabbath.” From there, I shared my viewpoint on how we often misinterpret Amos 3:7 and D&C 1:38. The most important aspect being the idea that we should validate the words of any man through a witness of the Holy Ghost. What was strange though was the response I received from one man. He essentially stated that since I was striving to listen to the HG I surely wouldn’t call the 1st day of the week the Sabbath. He was alluding to the fact that I was calling the wrong day the Sabbath.

I responded that I felt the Lord was ok w/ my worshipping on Sunday, and that I was happy that he had chosen a different day to call the Sabbath. He then chimed in stating that he thought I was a “textualist” and proceeded to state his opinion that it was a commandment to worship on Saturday. My responses must have rubbed him the wrong way because he felt it necessary to tell me that he “unfriended” me and then blocked me. (How did we become so fragile btw?)

For context, this is the definition of a Textualist: “a person who adheres strictly to a text, especially that of religious scriptures.”

So here are my questions:

#1: Do you see yourself as being a Religious Textualist and would you ever use that phrase to strengthen your viewpoint on supposed doctrines and worship practices?

#2: How do you define the Sabbath and is a person breaking a commandment by worshipping on a day other than Saturday?

As a footnote, the man I’m referring to is very well-known in certain Mormon circles (he’s not LDS) and is one of the preeminent collectors of Mormon historical artifacts.

Sunday is not the Sabbath and should not be referred to as such.
Sunday is referred to as the Lord’s Day. Sabbath refers specifically to the seventh day, and Sunday is not the seventh day.
Incidently, the Sabbath was not really about worship. It was about respecting God, considering the Torah, and resting from work. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

So you worship on “the Lord’s day”, but you don’t honor the Sabbath?

Is that a rhetorical "you"?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Sunday is not the Sabbath and should not be referred to as such.
Sunday is referred to as the Lord’s Day. Sabbath refers specifically to the seventh day, and Sunday is not the seventh day.
Incidently, the Sabbath was not really about worship. It was about respecting God, considering the Torah, and resting from work. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

So you worship on “the Lord’s day”, but you don’t honor the Sabbath?

Is that a rhetorical "you"?

No. Do you personally honor the Lord’s day and the Sabbath?

[SJR3t2]

In YHWH’s calendar you only need to look to what YHWH gave us, the Sun and the Moon, to know when it is on His calendar. Compared to the Roman / Pagan / Catholic calendar you need to check with other men, because it’s man made, to know what day it is. Don’t believe me. Lets suppose you fell into a comma. When you wake up how would you determine when your next appoint with YHWH Elohim is? If you consult a man or a man made deceive it’s a man made calendar. But if you consult the Sun and the Moon, which Elohim created for His appointments, it’s YHWH’s calendar.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/01/24/yhwh ... -calendar/

[Reluctant Watchman]

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that a one in seven day cycle is “man made.” I mean, that’s how we kick off the OT in Genesis.

[blitzinstripes]

Colossians 2:16 is quite clear that the old Sabbath was fulfilled, as was the rest of the "old" law, in Christ.

Screenshot_20230905-061655.png (191.83 KiB) Viewed 63 times

[Reluctant Watchman]

In the Nemenhah Record I found these verses to be important. Here we have two groups of people that originated from the same families who fled North many generations before, but were separated by much distance and many generations. But, even after this time they still found commonality. They may have worshipped slightly different on the Sabbath, but the intent of the worship was the same. I also see the note that “Moons” is also noted here and played a role in how they worshipped.

14) Yea, I have seen births and consecrations, baptisms and namings, and behold, your Itsipi (house of worship) are the same, as are the ordinances you perform for the living in the Temple.

15) Your Tsahbahts (Sabbaths) are many and different than ours, but this is to be expected. But the principle Tsahbahts and Moons are all the same as those we celebrate.

16) Behold, in almost all things but language, and in the keeping of your Tsahbahts, we are still the same people. This will be a wondrous thing to report to my own Council. Yea, I will be honored to report that there are yet Nemenhah in the forests and that the Peacemaker is not forgotten.