I saw light coming down from heaven over the LDS Church today.

[John Tavner]

He told me to tell you that

I"m sure you believe He did

I believe a man who gives a parable about a polygamy wedding as a good thing would be pro polygamy.

Others believe that man is like a liberal, says one thing and believes another!

That man is the only begotten son of god, like his father he was conceived of the spirit, unlike his father he was born of woman!

I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.

Like I've stated beforehand, God is good, He cares a lot more about what you are becoming than the exact belief you have. You may have all knowledge of all mysteries, but if you have not charity you (and I) without that are nothing. I choose to focus more on Christ and who He is and the manifestation of Christ in the flesh as a manifestation of the Father. Until we put on "Christ" and bear His name, it really doesn't matter how or why or all those other things- become and then things will become clear- because out of humility God can live through us - it is about saving man and transforming htem into the IMage of hte Father - restoring htem back to like in the Garden of Eden and that is doen through faith on and in and through Christ Jesus.

[Bronco73idi]

I"m sure you believe He did

I believe a man who gives a parable about a polygamy wedding as a good thing would be pro polygamy.

Others believe that man is like a liberal, says one thing and believes another!

That man is the only begotten son of god, like his father he was conceived of the spirit, unlike his father he was born of woman!

I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.

Like I've stated beforehand, God is good, He cares a lot more about what you are becoming than the exact belief you have. You may have all knowledge of all mysteries, but if you have not charity you (and I) without that are nothing. I choose to focus more on Christ and who He is and the manifestation of Christ in the flesh as a manifestation of the Father. Until we put on "Christ" and bear His name, it really doesn't matter how or why or all those other things- become and then things will become clear- because out of humility God can live through us - it is about saving man and transforming htem into the IMage of hte Father - restoring htem back to like in the Garden of Eden and that is doen through faith on and in and through Christ Jesus.

Tradition? You don’t know me!

I know God is Good!!!

He will destroy us for breaking his covenants! Yet his hand is still stretched out!

He will gather his people for his name sake, not for them!

These two statements are from Prophets of old!

[John Tavner]

I believe a man who gives a parable about a polygamy wedding as a good thing would be pro polygamy.

Others believe that man is like a liberal, says one thing and believes another!

That man is the only begotten son of god, like his father he was conceived of the spirit, unlike his father he was born of woman!

I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.

Like I've stated beforehand, God is good, He cares a lot more about what you are becoming than the exact belief you have. You may have all knowledge of all mysteries, but if you have not charity you (and I) without that are nothing. I choose to focus more on Christ and who He is and the manifestation of Christ in the flesh as a manifestation of the Father. Until we put on "Christ" and bear His name, it really doesn't matter how or why or all those other things- become and then things will become clear- because out of humility God can live through us - it is about saving man and transforming htem into the IMage of hte Father - restoring htem back to like in the Garden of Eden and that is doen through faith on and in and through Christ Jesus.

Tradition? You don’t know me!

I know God is Good!!!

He will destroy us for breaking his covenants! Yet his hand is still stretched out!

He will gather his people for his name sake, not for them!

These two statements are from Prophets of old!

I'm glad you know God is good. Let's praise Him together in His goodness! I know all of us have false traditions we cling to- even myself. According to your scripture it states that "even the most humble followers of Christ do err because of the precepts of men"

He also does it for us. His namesake is that He keeps His promises - He does it not because we are obtaining righteousness of ourselves - it is only through faith we can be found righteous. Otherwise what is God's purpose? According to your scripture It is to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." God is love. 1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

LDS members have spiritual experiences all the time. When they find out that people of other faiths have similar experiences it blows their mind, likely because they conflate their experience with the idea that the LDS church is the only true and living church on earth. So they end up twisting in the wind to explain away the experiences of other faiths and quell the unsettled feeling that something is wrong if everyone is having the same experience but they're not part of the true church.

It's a tough one.

[Bronco73idi]

I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.

Like I've stated beforehand, God is good, He cares a lot more about what you are becoming than the exact belief you have. You may have all knowledge of all mysteries, but if you have not charity you (and I) without that are nothing. I choose to focus more on Christ and who He is and the manifestation of Christ in the flesh as a manifestation of the Father. Until we put on "Christ" and bear His name, it really doesn't matter how or why or all those other things- become and then things will become clear- because out of humility God can live through us - it is about saving man and transforming htem into the IMage of hte Father - restoring htem back to like in the Garden of Eden and that is doen through faith on and in and through Christ Jesus.

Tradition? You don’t know me!

I know God is Good!!!

He will destroy us for breaking his covenants! Yet his hand is still stretched out!

He will gather his people for his name sake, not for them!

These two statements are from Prophets of old!

I'm glad you know God is good. Let's praise Him together in His goodness! I know all of us have false traditions we cling to- even myself. According to your scripture it states that "even the most humble followers of Christ do err because of the precepts of men"

He also does it for us. His namesake is that He keeps His promises - He does it not because we are obtaining righteousness of ourselves - it is only through faith we can be found righteous. Otherwise what is God's purpose? According to your scripture It is to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." God is love. 1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

You are implying that I don’t love and care for my fellow man…. I don’t disagree with anything about God’s love.


When precepts of men teach only one side of our Father then men who learn from these other men don’t know their Heavenly Father! And postpone their repentance until it’s too late.

More Prophets of ol’
Jeremiah 23
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

We are teaching love love love, so what words are we not teaching that would make men repent?

What err do you find in my words? Or I should ask, my understanding of his words?

[John Tavner]

Tradition? You don’t know me!

I know God is Good!!!

He will destroy us for breaking his covenants! Yet his hand is still stretched out!

He will gather his people for his name sake, not for them!

These two statements are from Prophets of old!

I'm glad you know God is good. Let's praise Him together in His goodness! I know all of us have false traditions we cling to- even myself. According to your scripture it states that "even the most humble followers of Christ do err because of the precepts of men"

He also does it for us. His namesake is that He keeps His promises - He does it not because we are obtaining righteousness of ourselves - it is only through faith we can be found righteous. Otherwise what is God's purpose? According to your scripture It is to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." God is love. 1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

You are implying that I don’t love and care for my fellow man…. I don’t disagree with anything about God’s love.


When precepts of men teach only one side of our Father then men who learn from these other men don’t know their Heavenly Father! And postpone their repentance until it’s too late.

More Prophets of ol’
Jeremiah 23
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

We are teaching love love love, so what words are we not teaching that would make men repent?

What err do you find in my words? Or I should ask, my understanding of his words?

If you are feeling like I am doing that, it is your own projection on yourself.

"It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance." Romans 2: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

Repentance is a complete turning away from sin it is changing ones mind and seeing God for what He sees in us. Understanding Why He sent His Son and what God desires in us. Fear in the sense we use it now (not the awe and wonder of scripture) only causes people to act a certain way in order to not receive punishment, it doesn't cause them to desire to become a certain way because they desire to be better htemselves. They become living hypocrites - doing one thing, but feeling another. God looks upon the heart.

I don't hear people preaching "love, love love" I hear people preaching "do what you want" and calling it love. Love only comes from God, it is thorugh yielding and submitting to Him. So what are we teaching that is wrong? We are telling poeple to do things and not teaching people to obtain relationship with God- to "seek Him in the secret place" To let Him "abide in us" 1 John : But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

I also agree, lots of prophets that speak as a prophet but aren't. It has happened for ages. Even whe nthe Apostles were still alive in the early church they stated there were many anti-christs and false prophets. IT happens.

The scripture about love is demonstrating that God isn't ONLY doing it for His namesake- it is out of love.

[Bronco73idi]

I'm glad you know God is good. Let's praise Him together in His goodness! I know all of us have false traditions we cling to- even myself. According to your scripture it states that "even the most humble followers of Christ do err because of the precepts of men"

He also does it for us. His namesake is that He keeps His promises - He does it not because we are obtaining righteousness of ourselves - it is only through faith we can be found righteous. Otherwise what is God's purpose? According to your scripture It is to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." God is love. 1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

You are implying that I don’t love and care for my fellow man…. I don’t disagree with anything about God’s love.


When precepts of men teach only one side of our Father then men who learn from these other men don’t know their Heavenly Father! And postpone their repentance until it’s too late.

More Prophets of ol’
Jeremiah 23
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

We are teaching love love love, so what words are we not teaching that would make men repent?

What err do you find in my words? Or I should ask, my understanding of his words?

If you are feeling like I am doing that, it is your own projection on yourself.

"It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance." Romans 2: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

Repentance is a complete turning away from sin it is changing ones mind and seeing God for what He sees in us. Understanding Why He sent His Son and what God desires in us. Fear in the sense we use it now (not the awe and wonder of scripture) only causes people to act a certain way in order to not receive punishment, it doesn't cause them to desire to become a certain way because they desire to be better htemselves. They become living hypocrites - doing one thing, but feeling another. God looks upon the heart.

I don't hear people preaching "love, love love" I hear people preaching "do what you want" and calling it love. Love only comes from God, it is thorugh yielding and submitting to Him. So what are we teaching that is wrong? We are telling poeple to do things and not teaching people to obtain relationship with God- to "seek Him in the secret place" To let Him "abide in us" 1 John : But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

I also agree, lots of prophets that speak as a prophet but aren't. It has happened for ages. Even whe nthe Apostles were still alive in the early church they stated there were many anti-christs and false prophets. IT happens.

The scripture about love is demonstrating that God isn't ONLY doing it for His namesake- it is out of love.

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Quit justifying your emotional based opinions.

To preach to me about a charity and nothing really else and then say you are not gaslighting me is the literal definition of gaslighting.

Too funny…..

[John Tavner]

You are implying that I don’t love and care for my fellow man…. I don’t disagree with anything about God’s love.


When precepts of men teach only one side of our Father then men who learn from these other men don’t know their Heavenly Father! And postpone their repentance until it’s too late.

More Prophets of ol’
Jeremiah 23
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

We are teaching love love love, so what words are we not teaching that would make men repent?

What err do you find in my words? Or I should ask, my understanding of his words?

If you are feeling like I am doing that, it is your own projection on yourself.

"It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance." Romans 2: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

Repentance is a complete turning away from sin it is changing ones mind and seeing God for what He sees in us. Understanding Why He sent His Son and what God desires in us. Fear in the sense we use it now (not the awe and wonder of scripture) only causes people to act a certain way in order to not receive punishment, it doesn't cause them to desire to become a certain way because they desire to be better htemselves. They become living hypocrites - doing one thing, but feeling another. God looks upon the heart.

I don't hear people preaching "love, love love" I hear people preaching "do what you want" and calling it love. Love only comes from God, it is thorugh yielding and submitting to Him. So what are we teaching that is wrong? We are telling poeple to do things and not teaching people to obtain relationship with God- to "seek Him in the secret place" To let Him "abide in us" 1 John : But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

I also agree, lots of prophets that speak as a prophet but aren't. It has happened for ages. Even whe nthe Apostles were still alive in the early church they stated there were many anti-christs and false prophets. IT happens.

The scripture about love is demonstrating that God isn't ONLY doing it for His namesake- it is out of love.

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Quit justifying your emotional based opinions.

To preach to me about a charity and nothing really else and then say you are not gaslighting me is the literal definition of gaslighting.

Too funny…..

Let's break this down. Did Jesus come because HE loves us or for His own sake? The answer to that question will define whether or not we believe the same God.

Old Testament Prophets did not know God fully As John said " No one has seen God, but we know Him in Christ". Old Testament points to the New, but isn't the New. Don't get htem confused- that is something I will point out that you err in understanding. That said they had a pretty close understanding " A " I had pity (compassion) for my holy name (those who bear my name, my people, my authority) which the house of Israel (those who claim to bear it, but don't) profaned. I do it not for (those who are profaning my name) but those who bear my name (have my authority, those to whom God gave promises). I do it for the righteous, I have compassion on them, I love them. Our faith blesses the world - How do you think Abraham's seed was to bless the world? Abraham's seed isn't from literal blood lines, it is brought about by faith. By Faith Christ came to the world. By Faith Christ gave His life for the world - so all could be blessed- for God's namesake for those who bear His name, for those that bear His heart/ His authority.

Gaslighting was never even brought up. If I preach on charity- to everyone - and say we all need to continue to seek it and if we are nothing without it- that is gaslighting? You are the one who knows your own heart. If you feel you are charity then why be offended?

[Bronco73idi]

If you are feeling like I am doing that, it is your own projection on yourself.

"It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance." Romans 2: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

Repentance is a complete turning away from sin it is changing ones mind and seeing God for what He sees in us. Understanding Why He sent His Son and what God desires in us. Fear in the sense we use it now (not the awe and wonder of scripture) only causes people to act a certain way in order to not receive punishment, it doesn't cause them to desire to become a certain way because they desire to be better htemselves. They become living hypocrites - doing one thing, but feeling another. God looks upon the heart.

I don't hear people preaching "love, love love" I hear people preaching "do what you want" and calling it love. Love only comes from God, it is thorugh yielding and submitting to Him. So what are we teaching that is wrong? We are telling poeple to do things and not teaching people to obtain relationship with God- to "seek Him in the secret place" To let Him "abide in us" 1 John : But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

I also agree, lots of prophets that speak as a prophet but aren't. It has happened for ages. Even whe nthe Apostles were still alive in the early church they stated there were many anti-christs and false prophets. IT happens.

The scripture about love is demonstrating that God isn't ONLY doing it for His namesake- it is out of love.

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Quit justifying your emotional based opinions.

To preach to me about a charity and nothing really else and then say you are not gaslighting me is the literal definition of gaslighting.

Too funny…..

Let's break this down. Did Jesus come because HE loves us or for His own sake? The answer to that question will define whether or not we believe the same God.

Old Testament Prophets did not know God As John said " No one has seen God, but we know Him in Christ". Old Testament points to the New, but isn't the New. Don't get htem confused- that is something I will point out that you err in understanding.

Gaslighting was never even brought up. If I preach on charity- to everyone - and say we all need to continue to seek it and if we are nothing without it- that is gaslighting? You are the one who knows your own heart. If you feel you are charity then why be offended?

I told you what I know. Instead of talking about what I know or don’t know, you mocked me and then preached about charity.


Like I said, too funny! I’m being sarcastic. You talk to me as a Pharisee would talk to one!

Jesus told the Pharisees who their father was….

[John Tavner]

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Quit justifying your emotional based opinions.

To preach to me about a charity and nothing really else and then say you are not gaslighting me is the literal definition of gaslighting.

Too funny…..

Let's break this down. Did Jesus come because HE loves us or for His own sake? The answer to that question will define whether or not we believe the same God.

Old Testament Prophets did not know God As John said " No one has seen God, but we know Him in Christ". Old Testament points to the New, but isn't the New. Don't get htem confused- that is something I will point out that you err in understanding.

Gaslighting was never even brought up. If I preach on charity- to everyone - and say we all need to continue to seek it and if we are nothing without it- that is gaslighting? You are the one who knows your own heart. If you feel you are charity then why be offended?

I told you what I know. Instead of talking about what I know or don’t know, you mocked me and then preached about charity.


Like I said, too funny! I’m being sarcastic. You talk to me as a Pharisee would talk to one!

Jesus told the Pharisees who their father was….

I'm not mocking you, but you can believe as you wish.

[Bronco73idi]

Let's break this down. Did Jesus come because HE loves us or for His own sake? The answer to that question will define whether or not we believe the same God.

Old Testament Prophets did not know God As John said " No one has seen God, but we know Him in Christ". Old Testament points to the New, but isn't the New. Don't get htem confused- that is something I will point out that you err in understanding.

Gaslighting was never even brought up. If I preach on charity- to everyone - and say we all need to continue to seek it and if we are nothing without it- that is gaslighting? You are the one who knows your own heart. If you feel you are charity then why be offended?

I told you what I know. Instead of talking about what I know or don’t know, you mocked me and then preached about charity.


Like I said, too funny! I’m being sarcastic. You talk to me as a Pharisee would talk to one!

Jesus told the Pharisees who their father was….

I'm not mocking you, but you can believe as you wish.

“I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.“


Tradition has taught me? I grew up Baptist!


You don’t know me so don’t assume, ie you mocked me with your assumption!

“I'm not mocking you, but you can believe as you wish.”

Text book gaslighting.

You keep calling it charity…..

[John Tavner]

I told you what I know. Instead of talking about what I know or don’t know, you mocked me and then preached about charity.


Like I said, too funny! I’m being sarcastic. You talk to me as a Pharisee would talk to one!

Jesus told the Pharisees who their father was….

I'm not mocking you, but you can believe as you wish.

“I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.“


Tradition has taught me? I grew up Baptist!


You don’t know me so don’t assume, ie you mocked me with your assumption!

“I'm not mocking you, but you can believe as you wish.”

Text book gaslighting.

You keep calling it charity…..

New traditions are formed all the time from people who hold old traditions.

Here is the question - Even if I did mock you, which I didn't - why do you care? What do my beliefs of you have to do with who you really are? If I am "mocking" and "persecuting you" Shouldn't you rejoice if it is for hte Lord's sake? What is your aim here? If me stating you can believe as you wish and stating the truth that I am not mocking you is mocking you and taht statement is what you call gaslighting you, then according to that defnition I am a mocking gaslighter. Feel free to continue to accuse. Remember though that as you judge you shall be judged - so if you are every making assumptions, you are also mocking others - for that appears to be your judgment. Meanwhile I'll continue to bless- I hold nothing against you, man I want the best for you. Regardless, Don't let me or anyone else mess with the peace that is in your heart if it is there- No one should have the control you seem to be giving me- and I"m not even trying. Your identity is always in Christ. Embrace Him - not what people say about you. You are the steward of your own heart- if it isn't true then it isn't true- if it is then repent and come to the Lord. I'm not your judge and I don't want to be your judge- I'm also not going to let you be my judge either- because Jesus is my judge.

[Bronco73idi]

I'm not mocking you, but you can believe as you wish.

“I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.“


Tradition has taught me? I grew up Baptist!


You don’t know me so don’t assume, ie you mocked me with your assumption!

“I'm not mocking you, but you can believe as you wish.”

Text book gaslighting.

You keep calling it charity…..

New traditions are formed all the time from people who hold old traditions.

Here is the question - Even if I did mock you, which I didn't - why do you care? What do my beliefs of you have to do with who you really are? If I am "mocking" and "persecuting you" Shouldn't you rejoice if it is for hte Lord's sake? What is your aim here? If me stating you can believe as you wish and stating the truth that I am not mocking you is mocking you and taht statement is what you call gaslighting you, then according to that defnition I am a mocking gaslighter. Feel free to continue to accuse. Remember though that as you judge you shall be judged - so if you are every making assumptions, you are also mocking others - for that appears to be your judgment. Meanwhile I'll continue to bless- I hold nothing against you, man I want the best for you. Regardless, Don't let me or anyone else mess with the peace that is in your heart if it is there- No one should have the control you seem to be giving me- and I"m not even trying. Your identity is always in Christ. Embrace Him - not what people say about you. You are the steward of your own heart- if it isn't true then it isn't true- if it is then repent and come to the Lord. I'm not your judge and I don't want to be your judge- I'm also not going to let you be my judge either- because Jesus is my judge.

You are all over the place there. That is how one gaslights someone else.

You have not justified your use of the word traditions and how that it is my downfall.

Not once did I preach to you. Can you say the same?

To preach to one, who hasn’t asked, is to judge one.

Did Jesus ever preach without being asked?

The Pharisees did.

[John Tavner]

“I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.“


Tradition has taught me? I grew up Baptist!


You don’t know me so don’t assume, ie you mocked me with your assumption!

“I'm not mocking you, but you can believe as you wish.”

Text book gaslighting.

You keep calling it charity…..

New traditions are formed all the time from people who hold old traditions.

Here is the question - Even if I did mock you, which I didn't - why do you care? What do my beliefs of you have to do with who you really are? If I am "mocking" and "persecuting you" Shouldn't you rejoice if it is for hte Lord's sake? What is your aim here? If me stating you can believe as you wish and stating the truth that I am not mocking you is mocking you and taht statement is what you call gaslighting you, then according to that defnition I am a mocking gaslighter. Feel free to continue to accuse. Remember though that as you judge you shall be judged - so if you are every making assumptions, you are also mocking others - for that appears to be your judgment. Meanwhile I'll continue to bless- I hold nothing against you, man I want the best for you. Regardless, Don't let me or anyone else mess with the peace that is in your heart if it is there- No one should have the control you seem to be giving me- and I"m not even trying. Your identity is always in Christ. Embrace Him - not what people say about you. You are the steward of your own heart- if it isn't true then it isn't true- if it is then repent and come to the Lord. I'm not your judge and I don't want to be your judge- I'm also not going to let you be my judge either- because Jesus is my judge.

You are all over the place there. That is how one gaslights someone else.

You have not justified your use of the word traditions and how that it is my downfall.

Not once did I preach to you. Can you say the same?

To preach to one, who hasn’t asked, is to judge one.

Did Jesus ever preach without being asked?

The Pharisees did.

To be clear I never said tradition was your "downfall" that is your interpretaion of what I said - though not my intention.

Is sharing truth judging? Not in the way Jesus meant it when He said judge righteously. Yes, Jesus preached all the time without being asked.

Regardless blessings to you brother. Feel free to continue to say what you feel you need to.

[John Tavner]

LDS members have spiritual experiences all the time. When they find out that people of other faiths have similar experiences it blows their mind, likely because they conflate their experience with the idea that the LDS church is the only true and living church on earth. So they end up twisting in the wind to explain away the experiences of other faiths and quell the unsettled feeling that something is wrong if everyone is having the same experience but they're not part of the true church.

It's a tough one.

It is. The way we have been taught often creates an us versus them atmosphere - which is actually ant-gospel - because the gospel is about unity and not factions. Of course this happens in other faiths too, but we kind of think we are above the fray when in reality we are often in teh midst of it, but we are kind of isolated in our fray to such an extent that we don't see what is happening in other faiths. I can't tell you how many people I've seen and churches I've been to where I see workings of God in them. God loves His people and desire us to come unto Him, but for some reason we get so caught up in "you must believe the exact way I believe" rather than embracing the idea of becoming love and becoming as Christ was in the flesh, that we, in my opinion miss the point of the gospel. Trying to beg God to bring the Kingdom rather than becoming the Kingdom. We get so caught up in things that won't matter - especially if we can't or don't become love and bear the Lord's name- seeking ot glorify God on the earth.

[CuriousThinker]

I believe a man who gives a parable about a polygamy wedding as a good thing would be pro polygamy.

Others believe that man is like a liberal, says one thing and believes another!

That man is the only begotten son of god, like his father he was conceived of the spirit, unlike his father he was born of woman!

I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.

Like I've stated beforehand, God is good, He cares a lot more about what you are becoming than the exact belief you have. You may have all knowledge of all mysteries, but if you have not charity you (and I) without that are nothing. I choose to focus more on Christ and who He is and the manifestation of Christ in the flesh as a manifestation of the Father. Until we put on "Christ" and bear His name, it really doesn't matter how or why or all those other things- become and then things will become clear- because out of humility God can live through us - it is about saving man and transforming htem into the IMage of hte Father - restoring htem back to like in the Garden of Eden and that is doen through faith on and in and through Christ Jesus.

Tradition? You don’t know me!

I know God is Good!!!

He will destroy us for breaking his covenants! Yet his hand is still stretched out!

He will gather his people for his name sake, not for them!

These two statements are from Prophets of old!

I used to think His hand being stretched out still meant mercy, but it means continued punishment.
https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -out-still

[Bronco73idi]

I disagree with some of your premises and perceptions, but I understand why you see things the way you do becuase tradition has taught you to view them a certain way.

Like I've stated beforehand, God is good, He cares a lot more about what you are becoming than the exact belief you have. You may have all knowledge of all mysteries, but if you have not charity you (and I) without that are nothing. I choose to focus more on Christ and who He is and the manifestation of Christ in the flesh as a manifestation of the Father. Until we put on "Christ" and bear His name, it really doesn't matter how or why or all those other things- become and then things will become clear- because out of humility God can live through us - it is about saving man and transforming htem into the IMage of hte Father - restoring htem back to like in the Garden of Eden and that is doen through faith on and in and through Christ Jesus.

Tradition? You don’t know me!

I know God is Good!!!

He will destroy us for breaking his covenants! Yet his hand is still stretched out!

He will gather his people for his name sake, not for them!

These two statements are from Prophets of old!

I used to think His hand being stretched out still meant mercy, but it means continued punishment.
https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -out-still

No one likes being wrong in their opinion.

I was wrong in my understanding of “His hand being stretched out” I thought like you said you used to think, until you replied to me to correct me, thank you.

I wish others would do likewise….

With this understanding of verse 25 it gives a deeper meaning to next paragraph in verse 26.

He raises an ensign and calls for all, to the end of the earth and the ones who will harken unto his laws and covenants come swiftly.

26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:

Almost like it ties into the parable of the rich man preparing a feast, invites his family and loves ones, they are to busy. So he has his servants, disciples invite all who will come.

[Being There]

Today, I went to a baptism of another faith- it was pretty awesome to see the faith of others as a young man dedicated his life to Jesus Christ - the humility of these individuals was amazing. Just good believing people all praying while the young man was getting baptized, releasing faith while the pastor baptized in the name of hte Father and the Son adn the Holy Ghost. The young man wanted to be baptized- it was jsut a good experience.

I also attended the LDS church- I had promised someone I would talk to them on Sunday, so I attended to keep my promise. As I was praising hte Lord for His mercy and love towards mankind, I saw a light from heaven coming down over the LDS church. It made me think- God loves them- He loves all even if they have a wrong theology - even if they are deceived He is still seeking to manifest His light and truth to them. HE still is communicating with those inside as their hearts are turned to Him (If you draw near unto me, I will draw near unto you).They may be unaware of deception, or wrong thinking but what defines them is that God sees their potential and still loves them He has not condemned them. In the past sometimes I have shown up and there has been an oppressive Spirit, but this time I saw it and it gave me faith to intercede on their behalf- so I went into another room and just prayed for them and for God to continue to share His love and remembered that I am supposed to represent His love to the world as well. He wants to and will work with them He loves them, He loves us. We can not cut others off just because they believe wrong- for 3.5 years Jesus preached and for 3.5 years no one, not even His disciples picked up on things. It wasn't until after He died that people began to understand - so perhaps when we speak to those around us and share truth in love we shouldn't cut them off after 1 month or 2 weeks. We must live our life in truth and as they see the truth through our life, that we are at peace with God and manifest His mercy and grace in greater degrees than before, I believe it will have to open their eyes and unstop their ears, but we can't change our view, we must continue to believe and have faith in the Lord and if Jesus didn't convince everyone in 3 years, maybe we shouldn't worry about convincing people around us in a short time, but jsut be the light, until the darkness can't stay anylonger and the Truth sets them free. We sow, we water, but God brings the increase.

I guess in some ways it was a gentle reminder from the Lord to not get too focused on the wrong teaching that others might be receiving because God can still speak to His children if they draw near Him. He works in mercy even through wrong teaching. In fact I received some very profound lessons from the Father while I was 100% in, but I was seeking the Father - and God in His mercy kept guiding me. So I guess my message is this- don't lose hope for those in the church, don't unintentionally condemn them in your hearts because they don't seem "awake." Continue to bless them and be the light of hte world to them. Show them who CHrist is through your life lived. They need to know love, they need encouragement from the Lord- if the Lord directed you away from them, that is fine, but continue to pray for them because the Lord has not given up on them or any of us for that matter- the end is not yet. He desires all of us to come unto Him and the reality is they are still showing up to church and seeking the best they know how in the darkness they can't see, because the Lord is still pricking their hearts and they desire to know Him in some way, shape or form. Don't lose heart for them, because God hasn't. That applies to all around us. THe moment we begin to cut others off in our heart, we prevent God the Father and His Son from working through us to bless them. How can our light shine if we refuse to shine our liht on them- and by the way, light just shines, it isn't forced. Anyways, just a few thoughts. God bless and keep the faith- don't lose heart or hope- for the Lord still seeks us and desires us as well even in our own faults, so rejoice in the love of God and rejoice in the love He has for others too- It is amazing! He is still blessing and working with them- He has not cut them off- because His church are those who repent and come unto Him, no matter where they are at or what church they attend.

appreciate your inspiring thoughts on God's love for us all,
but it looks like you have more love for the leaders of the church than Isaiah does or even Jesus Christ,
because the scriptures tell a different story - about what the Lord will do
to the Drunkards of Ephraim (church leaders) and it's members because of our apostasy.

I learned long ago, that God is a God of endless love for ALL of His children - everywhere,
but then I was taught, that He is also - a God of justice - and truth, and what is right and what is wrong.
and even though Jesus loves the sinner,
"The Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance”.

Where is Christ's doctrine of REPENTANCE ?
and repenting and coming to Him as a little child, with a broken heart and contrite spirit.

CHRISTS DOCTRINE

* note - please give attention to the repeat and emphasis on coming to Him as a little child -
and just how important it must be.
3 NEPHI 11:37 and 38
3 Nephi 9:22

3 NEPHI 11

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.

Ether 12
25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.
26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

3 Nephi 9
18 I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
21 Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin.
22 Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.

[Being There]

Tradition? You don’t know me!

I know God is Good!!!

He will destroy us for breaking his covenants! Yet his hand is still stretched out!

He will gather his people for his name sake, not for them!

These two statements are from Prophets of old!

I'm glad you know God is good. Let's praise Him together in His goodness! I know all of us have false traditions we cling to- even myself. According to your scripture it states that "even the most humble followers of Christ do err because of the precepts of men"

He also does it for us. His namesake is that He keeps His promises - He does it not because we are obtaining righteousness of ourselves - it is only through faith we can be found righteous. Otherwise what is God's purpose? According to your scripture It is to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." God is love. 1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

You are implying that I don’t love and care for my fellow man…. I don’t disagree with anything about God’s love.


When precepts of men teach only one side of our Father then men who learn from these other men don’t know their Heavenly Father! And postpone their repentance until it’s too late.

More Prophets of ol’
Jeremiah 23
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

We are teaching love love love, so what words are we not teaching that would make men repent?

What err do you find in my words? Or I should ask, my understanding of his words?

We are teaching love love love, so what words are we not teaching that would make men repent?

exactly. Amen.

[John Tavner]

Today, I went to a baptism of another faith- it was pretty awesome to see the faith of others as a young man dedicated his life to Jesus Christ - the humility of these individuals was amazing. Just good believing people all praying while the young man was getting baptized, releasing faith while the pastor baptized in the name of hte Father and the Son adn the Holy Ghost. The young man wanted to be baptized- it was jsut a good experience.

I also attended the LDS church- I had promised someone I would talk to them on Sunday, so I attended to keep my promise. As I was praising hte Lord for His mercy and love towards mankind, I saw a light from heaven coming down over the LDS church. It made me think- God loves them- He loves all even if they have a wrong theology - even if they are deceived He is still seeking to manifest His light and truth to them. HE still is communicating with those inside as their hearts are turned to Him (If you draw near unto me, I will draw near unto you).They may be unaware of deception, or wrong thinking but what defines them is that God sees their potential and still loves them He has not condemned them. In the past sometimes I have shown up and there has been an oppressive Spirit, but this time I saw it and it gave me faith to intercede on their behalf- so I went into another room and just prayed for them and for God to continue to share His love and remembered that I am supposed to represent His love to the world as well. He wants to and will work with them He loves them, He loves us. We can not cut others off just because they believe wrong- for 3.5 years Jesus preached and for 3.5 years no one, not even His disciples picked up on things. It wasn't until after He died that people began to understand - so perhaps when we speak to those around us and share truth in love we shouldn't cut them off after 1 month or 2 weeks. We must live our life in truth and as they see the truth through our life, that we are at peace with God and manifest His mercy and grace in greater degrees than before, I believe it will have to open their eyes and unstop their ears, but we can't change our view, we must continue to believe and have faith in the Lord and if Jesus didn't convince everyone in 3 years, maybe we shouldn't worry about convincing people around us in a short time, but jsut be the light, until the darkness can't stay anylonger and the Truth sets them free. We sow, we water, but God brings the increase.

I guess in some ways it was a gentle reminder from the Lord to not get too focused on the wrong teaching that others might be receiving because God can still speak to His children if they draw near Him. He works in mercy even through wrong teaching. In fact I received some very profound lessons from the Father while I was 100% in, but I was seeking the Father - and God in His mercy kept guiding me. So I guess my message is this- don't lose hope for those in the church, don't unintentionally condemn them in your hearts because they don't seem "awake." Continue to bless them and be the light of hte world to them. Show them who CHrist is through your life lived. They need to know love, they need encouragement from the Lord- if the Lord directed you away from them, that is fine, but continue to pray for them because the Lord has not given up on them or any of us for that matter- the end is not yet. He desires all of us to come unto Him and the reality is they are still showing up to church and seeking the best they know how in the darkness they can't see, because the Lord is still pricking their hearts and they desire to know Him in some way, shape or form. Don't lose heart for them, because God hasn't. That applies to all around us. THe moment we begin to cut others off in our heart, we prevent God the Father and His Son from working through us to bless them. How can our light shine if we refuse to shine our liht on them- and by the way, light just shines, it isn't forced. Anyways, just a few thoughts. God bless and keep the faith- don't lose heart or hope- for the Lord still seeks us and desires us as well even in our own faults, so rejoice in the love of God and rejoice in the love He has for others too- It is amazing! He is still blessing and working with them- He has not cut them off- because His church are those who repent and come unto Him, no matter where they are at or what church they attend.

appreciate your inspiring thoughts on God's love for us all,
but it looks like you have more love for the leaders of the church than Isaiah does or even Jesus Christ,
because the scriptures tell a different story - about what the Lord will do
to the Drunkards of Ephraim (church leaders) and it's members because of our apostasy.

I learned long ago, that God is a God of endless love for ALL of His children - everywhere,
but then I was taught, that He is also - a God of justice - and truth, and what is right and what is wrong.
and even though Jesus loves the sinner,
"The Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance”.

Where is Christ's doctrine of REPENTANCE ?
and repenting and coming to Him as a little child, with a broken heart and contrite spirit.

CHRISTS DOCTRINE

* note - please give attention to the repeat and emphasis on coming to Him as a little child -
and just how important it must be.
3 NEPHI 11:37 and 38
3 Nephi 9:22

3 NEPHI 11

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.

Ether 12
25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.
26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

3 Nephi 9
18 I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
21 Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin.
22 Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.

Does the Lord God change? Is there any shadow of changing in His Character?

Do you think He just told them what HE was going to do because He wanted them to suffer for months before hand? Or was Isaiah warning them... because God loved them?

If God tells you you are going to be destroyed, but you repent, does God stay the destruction (see Nineveh)

What about the people? As the scriptures teach "How can they be taught if no one speaks?" If you cut them off, then you have damned them before their time regardless of their sins.

What is repentance? Hebraically it means "turn towards God." In the New Testament" It means to change ones mind". Until it is time and judgment has passed - we ought not pass judgment, but rather seek to bless those who attend and show them truth from who we are. Again, how can you teach or do either of those things if you cut htem off in your heart.

[John Tavner]

I'm glad you know God is good. Let's praise Him together in His goodness! I know all of us have false traditions we cling to- even myself. According to your scripture it states that "even the most humble followers of Christ do err because of the precepts of men"

He also does it for us. His namesake is that He keeps His promises - He does it not because we are obtaining righteousness of ourselves - it is only through faith we can be found righteous. Otherwise what is God's purpose? According to your scripture It is to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." God is love. 1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

You are implying that I don’t love and care for my fellow man…. I don’t disagree with anything about God’s love.


When precepts of men teach only one side of our Father then men who learn from these other men don’t know their Heavenly Father! And postpone their repentance until it’s too late.

More Prophets of ol’
Jeremiah 23
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

We are teaching love love love, so what words are we not teaching that would make men repent?

What err do you find in my words? Or I should ask, my understanding of his words?

We are teaching love love love, so what words are we not teaching that would make men repent?

exactly. Amen.

We aren't teaching love. 1 Corinth 13 describes what love is. If you have heard that taught, then I would like to know where. What I hear is a bastardization of love. Is it true or not that if you have not love you are nothing?

I would also add most the people here also didn't seem to "hear" for a long time. Otherwise they wouldn't have been LDS members ever. Don't forget you and I were in their shoes at one point and you and i repented at least of what you and I believed. Did the Lord not wait on you and keep speaking to you and I wooing you and I? Even until today? Seeds were planted though as was said "some sow, some plant, but God brings forth the increase." We have to be careful we aren't judging before the time- regardless of what we think scripture says- because judgment doesn't happen until it happens.

[John Tavner]

Today, I went to a baptism of another faith- it was pretty awesome to see the faith of others as a young man dedicated his life to Jesus Christ - the humility of these individuals was amazing. Just good believing people all praying while the young man was getting baptized, releasing faith while the pastor baptized in the name of hte Father and the Son adn the Holy Ghost. The young man wanted to be baptized- it was jsut a good experience.

I also attended the LDS church- I had promised someone I would talk to them on Sunday, so I attended to keep my promise. As I was praising hte Lord for His mercy and love towards mankind, I saw a light from heaven coming down over the LDS church. It made me think- God loves them- He loves all even if they have a wrong theology - even if they are deceived He is still seeking to manifest His light and truth to them. HE still is communicating with those inside as their hearts are turned to Him (If you draw near unto me, I will draw near unto you).They may be unaware of deception, or wrong thinking but what defines them is that God sees their potential and still loves them He has not condemned them. In the past sometimes I have shown up and there has been an oppressive Spirit, but this time I saw it and it gave me faith to intercede on their behalf- so I went into another room and just prayed for them and for God to continue to share His love and remembered that I am supposed to represent His love to the world as well. He wants to and will work with them He loves them, He loves us. We can not cut others off just because they believe wrong- for 3.5 years Jesus preached and for 3.5 years no one, not even His disciples picked up on things. It wasn't until after He died that people began to understand - so perhaps when we speak to those around us and share truth in love we shouldn't cut them off after 1 month or 2 weeks. We must live our life in truth and as they see the truth through our life, that we are at peace with God and manifest His mercy and grace in greater degrees than before, I believe it will have to open their eyes and unstop their ears, but we can't change our view, we must continue to believe and have faith in the Lord and if Jesus didn't convince everyone in 3 years, maybe we shouldn't worry about convincing people around us in a short time, but jsut be the light, until the darkness can't stay anylonger and the Truth sets them free. We sow, we water, but God brings the increase.

I guess in some ways it was a gentle reminder from the Lord to not get too focused on the wrong teaching that others might be receiving because God can still speak to His children if they draw near Him. He works in mercy even through wrong teaching. In fact I received some very profound lessons from the Father while I was 100% in, but I was seeking the Father - and God in His mercy kept guiding me. So I guess my message is this- don't lose hope for those in the church, don't unintentionally condemn them in your hearts because they don't seem "awake." Continue to bless them and be the light of hte world to them. Show them who CHrist is through your life lived. They need to know love, they need encouragement from the Lord- if the Lord directed you away from them, that is fine, but continue to pray for them because the Lord has not given up on them or any of us for that matter- the end is not yet. He desires all of us to come unto Him and the reality is they are still showing up to church and seeking the best they know how in the darkness they can't see, because the Lord is still pricking their hearts and they desire to know Him in some way, shape or form. Don't lose heart for them, because God hasn't. That applies to all around us. THe moment we begin to cut others off in our heart, we prevent God the Father and His Son from working through us to bless them. How can our light shine if we refuse to shine our liht on them- and by the way, light just shines, it isn't forced. Anyways, just a few thoughts. God bless and keep the faith- don't lose heart or hope- for the Lord still seeks us and desires us as well even in our own faults, so rejoice in the love of God and rejoice in the love He has for others too- It is amazing! He is still blessing and working with them- He has not cut them off- because His church are those who repent and come unto Him, no matter where they are at or what church they attend.

appreciate your inspiring thoughts on God's love for us all,
but it looks like you have more love for the leaders of the church than Isaiah does or even Jesus Christ,
because the scriptures tell a different story - about what the Lord will do
to the Drunkards of Ephraim (church leaders) and it's members because of our apostasy.

I learned long ago, that God is a God of endless love for ALL of His children - everywhere,
but then I was taught, that He is also - a God of justice - and truth, and what is right and what is wrong.
and even though Jesus loves the sinner,
"The Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance”.

Where is Christ's doctrine of REPENTANCE ?
and repenting and coming to Him as a little child, with a broken heart and contrite spirit.

CHRISTS DOCTRINE

* note - please give attention to the repeat and emphasis on coming to Him as a little child -
and just how important it must be.
3 NEPHI 11:37 and 38
3 Nephi 9:22

3 NEPHI 11

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.

Ether 12
25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.
26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

3 Nephi 9
18 I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
21 Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin.
22 Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.

That said, - most people don't know the love of GOd, so they don't even know how to properly repent. Because they "strive themselves" to obtain it. We are nothing without God. We teach about "love" in a very base sense - tolerance - which really is just a small portion which should probably be called "patience" - We are told to love other people, and leave out often that the way to do that is to receive and love God. We can't love others though unless we love God and know God's love for us. I do agree God has justice, but what Has God said "The wicked destroy the wicked" "You reap what you sow" "the power of life and death is in our tongues" All these things will happen- when God's hand is stretched out - letting them receive what htey have been planting- His arm being stretched out is the only thing that is preventing it now, but when He stretches His hand out, then He will let them destroy themselves- and act of "let them have what they have been seeking - in resignition, not in joy of the their destruction.. His justice is different than ours. If He had let justice fall on us immediately - none of us would be alive today. Christ would have never come. His grace and mercy is what has brought us to Him- His long-suffering and patience. Justice was already meted out on Jesus Christ - it is when man will refuse fully to accept Christ because their hearts are so hardened that He extend His hand- because they will listen no more. To teach the love of GOd is to teach than man can change- that God's purpose is that man changes - that God does'nt want you t remain that way. How can I teach love and becoming love - wihtout teaching change? The moment you realize you need love- a gift from God- would that not cause you to turn towards God? Does it not cause you to change your mind of what you've been doing? IT has me. If you (anyone) wants to receive love they must realize they don't ahve love and need more - they must turn to God and change hteir mind (repent) they must submit to God. There is constant yielding when we see God and His love for us - because we see our potential and that we aren't fulfilling it- that God desires us to look like His Son. God is Love and Jesus is the manifestation of God in the Flesh- we are told to become love- like Jesus. Jesus = love= God's will towards man.

Look I understand I am probably preaching to the choir, but even the leaders can repent. Otherwise there would be no mention- most of us have gotten so lost in aiming our darts at others that we don't look at ourselves that we don't allow the full grace of God to come forth - if there were no grace there never would have been a warning for many, many, many years.

Also I apologize, the first two posts I made probably came off harsher than they should have and didn't fully address what you had said - which were valid concerns - the way I responded didn't fully cover those concerns.