God loves the world so much or is it so little?

[Shawn Henry]

Imagine it's your Birthday and I claim to be your best friend. I then tell you that I won't be coming to your birthday party, but that I love you so much that I'm going to send someone else to your birthday party and he will bring you a present. That's a deep love, right?

God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son....so wait, God so loved the world that he never left his throne to do anything for it himself? That doesn't sound like love. If Rangers can lead the way, you'd think God could!

However, if we let the BoM interpret John 3:16, we learn that God himself came down from his throne.

"And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people."

God so loved the world that he himself came down and because he took upon him flesh, he is called the son while he is in the flesh.

The God that so loved the world is Jesus Christ himself. He sent himself down.

[Shawn Henry]

Title Page
And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations.

1 Nephi 11:18 (Original Manuscript)
18)And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh.

2 Nephi 10:7
But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.

2 Nephi 25:29
And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

2 Nephi 11:7
For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

2 Nephi 26:12
And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 3:5
For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

Mosiah 15:1-4
1)AND now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2)And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-
3)The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-
4)And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Ether 3:14
Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Ether 4:7
And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

Ether 4:12
And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me-that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

[Wolfwoman]

People have been arguing about it since the time of Jesus. Was he God? Was he the son of God? Is there one god or more than one god?

I doubt we’ll all agree on it anytime soon.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Imagine it's your Birthday and I claim to be your best friend. I then tell you that I won't be coming to your birthday party, but that I love you so much that I'm going to send someone else to your birthday party and he will bring you a present. That's a deep love, right?

God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son....so wait, God so loved the world that he never left his throne to do anything for it himself? That doesn't sound like love. If Rangers can lead the way, you'd think God could!

However, if we let the BoM interpret John 3:16, we learn that God himself came down from his throne.

"And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people."

God so loved the world that he himself came down and because he took upon him flesh, he is called the son while he is in the flesh.

The God that so loved the world is Jesus Christ himself. He sent himself down.

[Godislove]

Who was the Savior praying to here then?

"Father forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34)

“Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46).

John 17:1
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

3rd Nephi 19:19-20
19 And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said:
20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

[Luke]

Believers in the Adam-God Doctrine also believe that God the Father came down and gave up His Godhood for a season in order to bring us into the world.

The wording in these two passages is something to think about:

2 Nephi 9
53 And behold how great the covenants of the Lord, and how great his condescensions [plural] unto the children of men; and because of his greatness, and his grace and mercy, he has promised unto us that our seed shall not utterly be destroyed, according to the flesh, but that he would preserve them; and in future generations they shall become a righteous branch unto the house of Israel.

Jacob 4
7 Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions [plural] unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.

[Wolfwoman]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It doesn’t say that he sent his son. But that he gave his son. Meaning he sacrificed his son. It would be harder for a parent to sacrifice their child than it would be to sacrifice themselves. Most parents would give up their own life rather than allow any harm to come to their child. So it was a great sacrifice for God to give his only son for the world.

[tmac]

I think this is interesting subject matter to discuss, and these are interesting questions to consider, but anytime such discussions become dominated by people who act like they have all the answers figured out, and a corresponding over-confidence in their position(s), I lose interest pretty quickly.

[nightlight]

Jesus Christ is the Father of the old testament. He is the creator of heaven and earth. But just as the Holy Ghost is separate entity, the Father is to.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
----------

To say Jesus prayed to Himself is to say Jesus is the Holy Ghost. He is not

These three entities make up God. Like how the past, present, and future make up time. Or how height/depth/width make "space"

7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

11 And behold, I am the alight and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
-----------

[nightlight]

The Father is not what LDS teach

[TheDuke]

The Father is not what LDS teach

Curious, who then is The Father? In your understanding?

[Reluctant Watchman]

To the OP, this is like someone saying that death is bad. Is it really? I don’t really agree with the birthday analogy. ALL things denote that there is a God. ALL things denote His love for us. Part of that was to provide a savior for us. We have a tendency to interpret eternal principles with a finite and fixed mortal lens.

[Bronco73idi]

Imagine it's your Birthday and I claim to be your best friend. I then tell you that I won't be coming to your birthday party, but that I love you so much that I'm going to send someone else to your birthday party and he will bring you a present. That's a deep love, right?

God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son....so wait, God so loved the world that he never left his throne to do anything for it himself? That doesn't sound like love. If Rangers can lead the way, you'd think God could!

However, if we let the BoM interpret John 3:16, we learn that God himself came down from his throne.

"And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people."

God so loved the world that he himself came down and because he took upon him flesh, he is called the son while he is in the flesh.

The God that so loved the world is Jesus Christ himself. He sent himself down.

You are so blind that you can justify slandering our Father!

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[Thinker]

Imagine it's your Birthday and I claim to be your best friend. I then tell you that I won't be coming to your birthday party, but that I love you so much that I'm going to send someone else to your birthday party and he will bring you a present. That's a deep love, right?

God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son....so wait, God so loved the world that he never left his throne to do anything for it himself? That doesn't sound like love...

The God that so loved the world is Jesus Christ himself. He sent himself down.

Good questions! So refreshing that someone’s wrestling with prepackaged ideas of god(s) rather than just accepting them. Though I think there’s still more to consider.

This does point to the deep need that marketing experts (religious marketing as well as other businesses) try to capitalize on… the need to FEEL loved. Constantine’s council gangs voted many times, changing the nature of Jesus - from human, to 1/2 human 1/2 god, to God. Maybe it was in response to the need of people to feel loved. To suffer on a cross & die for me - must = a lot of love FOR ME!! If he was just another human - well, nice, but how much MORE love it would mean if he was god! Ok, so let’s vote him god! Done

[Ymarsakar]

People have been arguing about it since the time of Jesus. Was he God? Was he the son of God? Is there one god or more than one god?

I doubt we’ll all agree on it anytime soon.

2 plus 2 equals whatwver humans says it equals

Humans are so passionate that they dont even ask the gods or their messengers about the truth. It is like the kardassians for religious

[TheChristian]

Whom was it that suffered and died apon the Cross of Calvary? ..... There apon the Cross is all the answers to our questions and the remedies to all our deepest needs, but whom will see said answers and have all their needs met, only those whom love the One whom hung there, for they will exhalt Him above all others.
Jesus of Nazerath, the Mighty God and Everlasting Father.

[Shawn Henry]

People have been arguing about it since the time of Jesus. Was he God? Was he the son of God? Is there one god or more than one god?

I doubt we’ll all agree on it anytime soon.

...but shouldn't the BoM have cleared up the issue. Is not the language clear?

[Shawn Henry]

Who was the Savior praying to here then?

"Father forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34)

“Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46).

John 17:1
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

3rd Nephi 19:19-20
19 And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said:
20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

Your questions don't change the language of the BoM. I would first accept it at face value and then determine how it is true rather than saying it isn't true and here are the reasons why.

To answer your question, Jesus was veiled like everyone else. At what point he learned his true identity isn't clear.

Here is a JST change you might not be aware of:

Luke 10:22 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

It was changed to this: "All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it."

[Shawn Henry]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It doesn’t say that he sent his son. But that he gave his son. Meaning he sacrificed his son. It would be harder for a parent to sacrifice their child than it would be to sacrifice themselves. Most parents would give up their own life rather than allow any harm to come to their child. So it was a great sacrifice for God to give his only son for the world.

It's a far greater love when you are willing to do it yourself, which is what the BoM says, God himself came down. Read the quotes in the second post and let the language speak for itself. The idea that God so loved the world that he pawned off all the work to someone else has a lot of holes in the logic.

[Shawn Henry]

I think this is interesting subject matter to discuss, and these are interesting questions to consider, but anytime such discussions become dominated by people who act like they have all the answers figured out, and a corresponding over-confidence in their position(s), I lose interest pretty quickly.

I could be wrong brother, that for sure, but I don't think I shouldn't be confident. If there are holes in my logic or things I haven't considered, I would love to hear them.

Shout out to GodisLove, she actually responds listing counter points, I respect that. That is the whole point of productive dialogue. There's no productivity in responding with emotion or witless humor like RW.

Not only is this "interesting subject matter", but it's also our most core belief, the one we should put the most effort into.

[Godislove]

Who was the Savior praying to here then?

"Father forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34)

“Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46).

John 17:1
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

3rd Nephi 19:19-20
19 And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said:
20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

Your questions don't change the language of the BoM. I would first accept it at face value and then determine how it is true rather than saying it isn't true and here are the reasons why.

To answer your question, Jesus was veiled like everyone else. At what point he learned his true identity isn't clear.

Here is a JST change you might not be aware of:

Luke 10:22 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

It was changed to this: "All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it."

But the resurrected Christ was no longer veiled and he still prayed to the father.

3 Nephi 19:21
21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.

[Shawn Henry]

To the OP, this is like someone saying that death is bad. Is it really? I don’t really agree with the birthday analogy. ALL things denote that there is a God. ALL things denote His love for us. Part of that was to provide a savior for us. We have a tendency to interpret eternal principles with a finite and fixed mortal lens.

Did you even read the OP?

"We have a tendency to interpret eternal principles with a finite and fixed mortal lens." Says the man repeating the narrative of his youth.

The OP was quite clear, doing something for someone yourself is a far greater love than sending someone else. This is basic common sense.

This is why the BoM teaches that God himself came down off of his throne. He loved us so much he was living to do it himself.

[Shawn Henry]

But the resurrected Christ was no longer veiled and he still prayed to the father.

3 Nephi 19:21
21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.

Yes, and that dovetails with the BoM description too. While he is in flesh he is the son. While he is in spirit he is the Father

[Shawn Henry]

Imagine it's your Birthday and I claim to be your best friend. I then tell you that I won't be coming to your birthday party, but that I love you so much that I'm going to send someone else to your birthday party and he will bring you a present. That's a deep love, right?

God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son....so wait, God so loved the world that he never left his throne to do anything for it himself? That doesn't sound like love...

The God that so loved the world is Jesus Christ himself. He sent himself down.

Good questions! So refreshing that someone’s wrestling with prepackaged ideas of god(s) rather than just accepting them. Though I think there’s still more to consider.

This does point to the deep need that marketing experts (religious marketing as well as other businesses) try to capitalize on… the need to FEEL loved. Constantine’s council gangs voted many times, changing the nature of Jesus - from human, to 1/2 human 1/2 god, to God. Maybe it was in response to the need of people to feel loved. To suffer on a cross & die for me - must = a lot of love FOR ME!! If he was just another human - well, nice, but how much MORE love it would mean if he was god! Ok, so let’s vote him god! Done

I agree. Much more to consider and so many more questions. Why shouldn't we start with asking them.

[Reluctant Watchman]

To the OP, this is like someone saying that death is bad. Is it really? I don’t really agree with the birthday analogy. ALL things denote that there is a God. ALL things denote His love for us. Part of that was to provide a savior for us. We have a tendency to interpret eternal principles with a finite and fixed mortal lens.

Did you even read the OP?

"We have a tendency to interpret eternal principles with a finite and fixed mortal lens." Says the man repeating the narrative of his youth.

The OP was quite clear, doing something for someone yourself is a far greater love than sending someone else. This is basic common sense.

This is why the BoM teaches that God himself came down off of his throne. He loved us so much he was living to do it himself.

A God came down.