LDS Freedom Forum

Telavian wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 5:20 pm

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 4:47 pm actually, 99% of all the evidence, comes from JS's own hand, or from those that served him
and were around him at that time.
so how can it be used ? It can't.

While I agree that we should be skeptical of things. This is however a very strange thing to say.
99% of all the evidence of Christ comes from him directly or "from those that served him", therefore we should discount Christ, correct?

what do you mean - Christ ?
and that we should discount Christ?
I said that 99% of all the evidence, comes from JS's own hand, or from those that served him
and were around him at that time.
And that "how can you use anything from the D&C when it came from Joseph Smith's own hand.
Sure you can say it was all from revelation, but was it ?
Can we even trust the D&C ?"
viewtopic.php?p=1381008&hilit=Joseph+Sm ... t#p1381008

But if we're going to use the D&C -and believe it was revelation from the Lord - then use this.

I think this says it all. why look any further.

These verses show by the Davidic servants mission
that he - John is Elias, and his mission is to gather Israel
and " restore all things."


D&C 77
9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.

D&C 77
14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 6:03 pm JS was killed.

Literally we don't know that and I frankly don't think it matters at all. There are 1000's of possibilities here and I will just list a few.

1. JS could have not died, but been very close in a suspended state of animation.
2. JS could have been replaced with a duplicate.
3. JS could have faked his death.
4. Everything we know about JS could be totally wrong.
5. JS could be a robot that never was alive in the first place.

Telavian wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 1:16 pm

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 12:37 pm I'm with you. I love Gileadi and have great respect for him, but I truly do not understand his opposition to the idea that JS will come back. His argument seems to be "Would you really want Joseph to have to come back and go through all this stuff after all he has already gone through?" But that's quite a logical error, considering that what I might or might not want to happen has no bearing on what is actually going to happen.

I think it is another reason to believe that no one, including me, has all the answers. We all have various pieces and are trying to work things out.

actually, it's really so simple, *
but those that want to believe in Joseph Smith make it much more complicated than what it really needs to be.

* you can know who the Lord's end-time DS is - just by what mission he performs -
which principal mission is - to gather Israel - which these scriptures prove - that it's John -
as these scriptures that I just posted say.

These verses show by the Davidic servants mission
that he - John is Elias, and his mission is to gather Israel
and " restore all things."


D&C 77
9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.

D&C 77
14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.


and here is much much more.

The primary mission of the Davidic servant is to gather Israel.
From the scriptures below, and the word links that I show with different colors,
you can see that John is the one who fulfills this mission.

lds.org
1–3, John the Beloved will live until the Lord comes; 4–8, Peter, James, and John hold gospel keys.
D&C 7
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

To Joseph Smith was given the keys of this dispensation, BUT NEVER
did he receive the presiding "keys of this ministry" of the Gospel or
"keys of the kingdom of God" of ALL dispensations from
A.D.30 to Christ's Second Coming.
These keys are held by Peter, James, and John.
inasmuch as Peter and James have passed through
and beyond the invisible veil, it places John – the Davidic servant as the only one
holding these certain presiding keys in the flesh.

D&C113

5 What is the ROOT (John the Rev.) of Jesse spoken
of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?

6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse,
as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood,
and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign,
and for the gathering of my people in the last days.


Isaiah 49

3 He said to me, You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 I had thought, I have labored in vain,
I have spent my strength for nothing
and to no purpose!
Yet my cause rested with Jehovah,
my recompense with my God.

Jehovah’s calling his servant “Israel” parallels Jehovah’s calling his people’s ancestor Jacob by his new name Israel after Jacob had proven loyal to him (Genesis 32:28). The servant’s receiving a new name, in other words—which the name Israel here symbolizes—attests to his ascent to a higher spiritual level after he has proven loyal to Jehovah. It also implies that he—Jehovah’s individual servant—serves as a surrogate of and as an exemplar to Jehovah’s collective servant; that is, to Jehovah’s people in the Jacob/Israel category to whom Jehovah sends him (vv 5-9; Isaiah 41:27; 42:6-7; 48:16).

One way the servant proves loyal is to continue laboring in Jehovah’s cause even in the face of few positive results. By all appearances, he at first spends a great deal of energy “in vain” and “for nothing and to no purpose.” And yet, desiring to serve Jehovah even under the most adversarial conditions (v 7; Isaiah 50:6-9; 52:13-14), he submits to Jehovah’s will: “My Lord Jehovah has endowed me with a learned tongue, that I may know how to preach to those grown weary a word to wake them up” (Isaiah 50:4). Before ascending to Isaiah’s seraph level, he descends through trials that consume him.

5 For now Jehovah has said—
he who formed me from the womb
to be his servant, to restore Jacob to him,
Israel having been gathered to him;
for I won honor in the eyes of Jehovah
when my God became my strength—
6 he said: It is too small a thing
for you to be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to restore those preserved of Israel.
I will also appoint you to be a light to the nations,
that my salvation may be to the end of the earth.

A reversal of circumstances takes place for Jehovah’s servant when the trials he endures have served their purpose to purify, perfect, and sanctify him to a higher spiritual level, thereby qualifying him for a new commission. Jacob/Israel’s restoration, to which task he was foreordained (v 1), Jehovah augments with a mission to serve as a light to the “nations” or “Gentiles” (goyim) “to the end of the earth.” From there, Jehovah’s people are to return (Isaiah 41:8-9; 43:5-6), so that all who desire it might participate in Jehovah’s salvation and prepare for Jehovah’s coming as salvation (Isaiah 52:7; 62:11).

Jehovah “appoints” his servant when he “wins honor” in Jehovah’s eyes by proving faithful through trials (v 4), at which time his God becomes his “strength.” The servant’s physical exploits that follow—subduing nations, releasing captives, leading the new exodus, and rebuilding ruins (Isaiah 9:2-5; 11:10-16; 41:2-3, 25; 45:1-3, 13; 48:14; 61:1-4)—should thus be seen in the context of an ascent phase of divine empowerment that follows his descent phase through afflictions as he fulfills his role of proxy savior to the Jacob/Israel category of Jehovah’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lds.org
Rev. Chapter 10
John seals up many things relative to the last days—
He is commissioned to participate in the restoration of all things.

9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 52:15 "sprinkle many nations"
Joseph Smith translated this to be -
"Gather many nation" see JS trans.
Isaiah 52:
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently,
he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14 "As many were astonished at thee;
his visage was so marred more than any man,
and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle (JST gather) many nations;
the kings shall shut their mouths at him:
for that which had not been told them shall they see;
and that which they had not heard shall they consider."


3 Nephi 21:
8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.


Interesting how the Lord mentions that He will make John
" I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel;"

lds.org
D&C 7

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved,what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel;
he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.


D&C 77
9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?

A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom
is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it,
this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and
restore all things.

D&C 77
14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance,
for him to gather the tribes of Israel;
behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written,
must come and restore all things.

(this is in reference to the above scripture)
lds.org
Rev. Chapter 10
John seals up many things relative to the last days—
He is commissioned to participate in the restoration of all things.

just some more info. on this, and some repeat - sorry.

from another comment of mine -

the reason that you don't see any gathering yet is because we are not the ones that will be doing the gathering.
That mission is reserved for the Lord's end-time servant - the Davidic servant,
who by the way, is the "angel ascending from the east" in Revelation 7:2,
and who also is Elias, and who I personally believe to be John the Beloved - the Revelator.

lds.org
"(2) Elias is also a title for one who is a forerunner; for example, John the Baptist,"

"(3) The title Elias has also been applied to many others for specific missions or restorative functions that they are to fulfill; for example, John the Revelator (D&C 77:14) "

The "little book" was his mission, he saw
what his own mission would be; to gather Israel
in the last days, and be an Elias - a forerunner
to the coming of Christ. Just as John the Baptist
was an Elias - a forerunner to Christ.
For this important mission he (John the Rev.)
has tarried in the flesh for 19 centuries.

He is both the angel of His Presence and Elias who announces the Lord.

Doctrine and Covenants
Section 77

9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.

A “sweet” but “bitter” mission and ordinance
to gather the tribes of Israel.

lds.org
Rev. Chapter 10
John seals up many things relative to the last days—
He is commissioned to participate in the restoration of all things.

9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

D&C 77
14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance,
for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written,
must come and restore all things.

The Davidic King, a Man like Moses that will free the saints from their bondage and lead the exodus to Zion.
and"whom rightly belongs the priesthood,
and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign,
and for the gathering of my people in the last days"

He is the "Root of Jessie" in Isaiah 11:10
He is a descendant of Jesse as well as of Joseph.

D&C113
1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the
1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the
11th chapter of Isaiah?

2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.

3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the
11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?

4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ,
who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim,
or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?

6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse,
as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood,
and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign,
and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

Isaiah 11

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.


10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people,
which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

"A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 6:50 pm actually, it's really so simple, *
but those that want to believe in Joseph Smith make it much more complicated than what it really needs to be.

I think it is highly likely that multiple people have been involved and will be involved. God works by making millions of small nudges all over the place.

Telavian wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 7:01 pm

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 6:50 pm actually, it's really so simple, *
but those that want to believe in Joseph Smith make it much more complicated than what it really needs to be.

I think it is highly likely that multiple people have been involved and will be involved. God works by making millions of small nudges all over the place.

probably true,
but the Lord only has 1 end-time DS servant.
And that's John - who gathers Israel.

There is only 1 servant - the Lord's end-time servant,
this is the theme all through Isaiah -
who is the Davidic Servant, the Marred Servant,
the Mighty and Strong One - the one who the Lord commissions to restore His people - The House of Israel;
and it's NOT Joseph Smith.


this is the theme all through Isaiah.

"the Lord empowers him;
"when my God became my strength— " Isaiah 49:5
after the "trials he endures have served their purpose to purify, perfect, and sanctify him to a higher spiritual level,
thereby qualifying him for a new commission.
Jacob/Israel’s restoration, to which task he was foreordained (v 1), Jehovah augments with a mission
to serve as a light to the “nations” or “Gentiles”

all through Isaiah there are so many references to a (meaning 1) servant of the Lord.

just take this one example alone -
Isaiah 49 - which is all about this servant - the Davidic Servant.

https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/49


Why did Nephi, of all places, stop in the middle of his own writing and quote
chapters 48 and 49 of of Isaiah (compare 1 Nephi 20 and 21) WHY ?
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/48
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/49
maybe he is trying to tell us something using Isaiah that he was forbidden to say, 1 Nephi 14:28
that he "durst not speak" 1Nephi 22:29.
Maybe by using Isaiah's words, "Nephi is trying to tell us something indirectly what he himself cannot say directly.
"The things he was not permitted to say plainly - in order to protect those who may be spiritually vulnerable -
are quite appropriate for him to say indirectly.
He can do so at least in part by quoting Isaiah."

about the "Great and Marvelous work" - Israel's restoration,"apostasy among the people of the Lord as the stage for his fulfillment of prophetic events, a prophet's prophesying, the coming forth of new revelations, the Lord's servant hated by the wicked of his people,
the Lord's saving intervention, an endowment of divine power, Israel's physical restoration, a light amid apostasy,
release from bondage, a new exodus, a new wandering in the wilderness, divine guidance and miracles,
return from dispersion, assistance from Gentiles, the destruction of the wicked...."


Jehovah’s servant
Isaiah 49
2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—in the shadow of his hand he hid me.He has made me into a polished arrow—in his quiver he kept me secret.

Jehovah’s “hiding” and “secreting” his servant suggests that the world knows nothing of his calling until the time Jehovah empowers him. Even Jehovah’s people don’t know him or are ignorant of him until he fulfills his mission: “You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you” (Isaiah 55:5). He himself, therefore, is one of the “new things” Jehovah does suddenly that test the loyalty of his people (Isaiah 42:9; 48:6-8; 51:4-11). The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically (Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3)

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 7:26 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 7:01 pm

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 6:50 pm actually, it's really so simple, *
but those that want to believe in Joseph Smith make it much more complicated than what it really needs to be.

I think it is highly likely that multiple people have been involved and will be involved. God works by making millions of small nudges all over the place.

probably true,
but the Lord only has 1 end-time DS servant.
And that's John - who gathers Israel.

There is only 1 servant - the Lord's end-time servant,
this is the theme all through Isaiah -
who is the Davidic Servant, the Marred Servant,
the Mighty and Strong One - the one who the Lord commissions to restore His people - The House of Israel;
and it's NOT Joseph Smith.


this is the theme all through Isaiah.

"the Lord empowers him;
"when my God became my strength— " Isaiah 49:5
after the "trials he endures have served their purpose to purify, perfect, and sanctify him to a higher spiritual level,
thereby qualifying him for a new commission.
Jacob/Israel’s restoration, to which task he was foreordained (v 1), Jehovah augments with a mission
to serve as a light to the “nations” or “Gentiles”

all through Isaiah there are so many references to a (meaning 1) servant of the Lord.

just take this one example alone -
Isaiah 49 - which is all about this servant - the Davidic Servant.

https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/49


Why did Nephi, of all places, stop in the middle of his own writing and quote
chapters 48 and 49 of of Isaiah (compare 1 Nephi 20 and 21) WHY ?
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/48
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/49
maybe he is trying to tell us something using Isaiah that he was forbidden to say, 1 Nephi 14:28
that he "durst not speak" 1Nephi 22:29.
Maybe by using Isaiah's words, "Nephi is trying to tell us something indirectly what he himself cannot say directly.
"The things he was not permitted to say plainly - in order to protect those who may be spiritually vulnerable -
are quite appropriate for him to say indirectly.
He can do so at least in part by quoting Isaiah."

about the "Great and Marvelous work" - Israel's restoration,"apostasy among the people of the Lord as the stage for his fulfillment of prophetic events, a prophet's prophesying, the coming forth of new revelations, the Lord's servant hated by the wicked of his people,
the Lord's saving intervention, an endowment of divine power, Israel's physical restoration, a light amid apostasy,
release from bondage, a new exodus, a new wandering in the wilderness, divine guidance and miracles,
return from dispersion, assistance from Gentiles, the destruction of the wicked...."


Jehovah’s servant
Isaiah 49
2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—in the shadow of his hand he hid me.He has made me into a polished arrow—in his quiver he kept me secret.

Jehovah’s “hiding” and “secreting” his servant suggests that the world knows nothing of his calling until the time Jehovah empowers him. Even Jehovah’s people don’t know him or are ignorant of him until he fulfills his mission: “You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you” (Isaiah 55:5). He himself, therefore, is one of the “new things” Jehovah does suddenly that test the loyalty of his people (Isaiah 42:9; 48:6-8; 51:4-11). The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically (Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3)

and this -

if there were many servants - (plural) -
then WHY doesn't the Lord say "servants" - (plural) - instead of servant -
like He does in verse 1.

Isaiah 42
Jehovah’s appointing his servant as a light to the nations leads to a new exodus or to captivity.

*** 1 My servant whom I sustain, my chosen one in whom I delight,
him I have endowed with my Spirit;
he will dispense justice to the nations.

Jehovah sustains and endows with his Spirit his servant (Isaiah 11:2; 48:16; 61:1), who here appears under his spiritual (and often suffering) persona (Isaiah 49:7; 50:7-10; 52:14; 53:11). Jehovah commissions him to restore justice to the “nations” or “Gentiles” (goyim), inferring that there is no justice or only a façade of justice among his people and the nations (Isaiah 5:7; 10:1-2; 59:11, 15). Types of Jehovah’s “servant” or vassal include Isaiah (Isaiah 20:3), Eliakim (Isaiah 22:20), Cyrus (Isaiah 44:26-28), Hezekiah (Isaiah 37:15-20; 38:2-6), Moses (Isaiah 63:11-14), and David (Isaiah 55:3-4).

Because no one type covers all the end-time roles Jehovah’s servant fulfills, Isaiah presents him under different personas. Consistent with persons in the seraph category, his mission, like those of Moses and Elijah, is international in scope (Exodus 3:16-22; 1 Kings 19:15-16). At first directed to the Jacob/Israel category of Jehovah’s people dispersed among the nations (Isaiah 11:10-12; 41:8-9; 43:1-8; 49:8-12), the servant’s task is to bring as many as will repent to renew the covenant with Jehovah and to ascend to higher spiritual categories (v 21; Isaiah 44:1-5, 21-22; 45:19-25; 46:12-13).

-----------------------------

the whole reasoning behind the need for many servants,
is so then some can justify the need for Joseph Smith to return as one of them.

YES, there will be many, as there are already many now, that serve the Lord,
so they are His servants.
You, and even I, could be one of these end-time servants that have a mission and play an important role;
the Lord has a plan and a mission for anyone that serves Him,
but it's just not the same, as the Lord's one and only end-time Davidic servant and his mission or missions,
and that He empowers and works through and that we should be looking for.

CMajor wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 11:53 am Isaiah 11:1 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:"

Studying D&C 113 makes it plain that:

The stem: Christ
The rod: Joseph Smith
The root/branch: A future servant

• “A shoot [rod] will spring up from the stock [stem] of Jesse and a branch from its graft bear fruit.” (Isaiah 11:1, Gileadi Translation)

According to this, a rod will spring up from the stem, or, in other words, will be descended from the stem. Joseph Smith was a descendent of Jesus Christ. As for the root/branch, it says that it will be grafted in to the rod—implying adoption, rather than natural descent. Is there a line of adopted descendants of Joseph Smith, having the birthright of Joseph Smith, which will eventually give birth to this man?

• “Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.” (D&C 113:6)

The answer is yes.

Telavian wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 6:46 pm

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 6:03 pm JS was killed.

Literally we don't know that and I frankly don't think it matters at all. There are 1000's of possibilities here and I will just list a few.

1. JS could have not died, but been very close in a suspended state of animation.
2. JS could have been replaced with a duplicate.
3. JS could have faked his death.
4. Everything we know about JS could be totally wrong.
5. JS could be a robot that never was alive in the first place.

as you said to me -
"This is however a very strange thing to say. " -
and all just to try to justify a fallen prophet - Joseph Smith,
because like many, you've fallen for the Joseph Smith mind block.

I wasn't able to attend. Does anyone know how to get the links to the recording?

Telavian wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 7:21 am
… he is adamant that Joseph is not coming back and …

Rightfully so,
if one properly understands multiple signs
… and words posted in multiple splaces …

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑August 27th, 2023, 9:09 am Rightfully so,
if one properly understands multiple signs
… and words posted in multiple splaces …

Can you be more specific?

Telavian wrote: ↑August 27th, 2023, 9:24 am

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑August 27th, 2023, 9:09 am Rightfully so,
if one properly understands multiple signs
… and words posted in multiple splaces …

Can you be more specific?

The words of Michael Sherwin, in combination with the March 8, and 18th miracles.

did anyone take any notes you'd like to share ?

ANYTHING you can remember.

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 7:40 pm

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 7:26 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 7:01 pm

I think it is highly likely that multiple people have been involved and will be involved. God works by making millions of small nudges all over the place.

probably true,
but the Lord only has 1 end-time DS servant.
And that's John - who gathers Israel.

There is only 1 servant - the Lord's end-time servant,
this is the theme all through Isaiah -
who is the Davidic Servant, the Marred Servant,
the Mighty and Strong One - the one who the Lord commissions to restore His people - The House of Israel;
and it's NOT Joseph Smith.


this is the theme all through Isaiah.

"the Lord empowers him;
"when my God became my strength— " Isaiah 49:5
after the "trials he endures have served their purpose to purify, perfect, and sanctify him to a higher spiritual level,

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. 9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

thereby qualifying him for a new commission.
Jacob/Israel’s restoration, to which task he was foreordained (v 1), Jehovah augments with a mission
to serve as a light to the “nations” or “Gentiles”

all through Isaiah there are so many references to a (meaning 1) servant of the Lord.

just take this one example alone -
Isaiah 49 - which is all about this servant - the Davidic Servant.

https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/49


Why did Nephi, of all places, stop in the middle of his own writing and quote
chapters 48 and 49 of of Isaiah (compare 1 Nephi 20 and 21) WHY ?
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/48
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/49
maybe he is trying to tell us something using Isaiah that he was forbidden to say, 1 Nephi 14:28
that he "durst not speak" 1Nephi 22:29.
Maybe by using Isaiah's words, "Nephi is trying to tell us something indirectly what he himself cannot say directly.
"The things he was not permitted to say plainly - in order to protect those who may be spiritually vulnerable -
are quite appropriate for him to say indirectly.
He can do so at least in part by quoting Isaiah."

about the "Great and Marvelous work" - Israel's restoration,"apostasy among the people of the Lord as the stage for his fulfillment of prophetic events, a prophet's prophesying, the coming forth of new revelations, the Lord's servant hated by the wicked of his people,
the Lord's saving intervention, an endowment of divine power, Israel's physical restoration, a light amid apostasy,
release from bondage, a new exodus, a new wandering in the wilderness, divine guidance and miracles,
return from dispersion, assistance from Gentiles, the destruction of the wicked...."


Jehovah’s servant
Isaiah 49
2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—in the shadow of his hand he hid me.He has made me into a polished arrow—in his quiver he kept me secret.

Jehovah’s “hiding” and “secreting” his servant suggests that the world knows nothing of his calling until the time Jehovah empowers him. Even Jehovah’s people don’t know him or are ignorant of him until he fulfills his mission: “You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you” (Isaiah 55:5). He himself, therefore, is one of the “new things” Jehovah does suddenly that test the loyalty of his people (Isaiah 42:9; 48:6-8; 51:4-11). The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically (Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3)

and this -

if there were many servants - (plural) -
then WHY doesn't the Lord say "servants" - (plural) - instead of servant -
like He does in verse 1.

Isaiah 42
Jehovah’s appointing his servant as a light to the nations leads to a new exodus or to captivity.

*** 1 My servant whom I sustain, my chosen one in whom I delight,
him I have endowed with my Spirit;
he will dispense justice to the nations.

Jehovah sustains and endows with his Spirit his servant (Isaiah 11:2; 48:16; 61:1), who here appears under his spiritual (and often suffering) persona (Isaiah 49:7; 50:7-10; 52:14; 53:11). Jehovah commissions him to restore justice to the “nations” or “Gentiles” (goyim), inferring that there is no justice or only a façade of justice among his people and the nations (Isaiah 5:7; 10:1-2; 59:11, 15). Types of Jehovah’s “servant” or vassal include Isaiah (Isaiah 20:3), Eliakim (Isaiah 22:20), Cyrus (Isaiah 44:26-28), Hezekiah (Isaiah 37:15-20; 38:2-6), Moses (Isaiah 63:11-14), and David (Isaiah 55:3-4).

Because no one type covers all the end-time roles Jehovah’s servant fulfills, Isaiah presents him under different personas. Consistent with persons in the seraph category, his mission, like those of Moses and Elijah, is international in scope (Exodus 3:16-22; 1 Kings 19:15-16). At first directed to the Jacob/Israel category of Jehovah’s people dispersed among the nations (Isaiah 11:10-12; 41:8-9; 43:1-8; 49:8-12), the servant’s task is to bring as many as will repent to renew the covenant with Jehovah and to ascend to higher spiritual categories (v 21; Isaiah 44:1-5, 21-22; 45:19-25; 46:12-13).

-----------------------------

the whole reasoning behind the need for many servants,
is so then some can justify the need for Joseph Smith to return as one of them.

YES, there will be many, as there are already many now, that serve the Lord,
so they are His servants.
You, and even I, could be one of these end-time servants that have a mission and play an important role;
the Lord has a plan and a mission for anyone that serves Him,
but it's just not the same, as the Lord's one and only end-time Davidic servant and his mission or missions,
and that He empowers and works through and that we should be looking for.

I have written 10 pages on why the servant that Isaiah is writing about is not a singular individual just as the woman or virgin often is not. The prophets often use a singular form to represent the many or a people, depending on the "role" of the people the prophet want to illustrate or address. The name of Jacob or Israel is often used to represent God's people in different time periods and not the ancient singular individual with the same name, Isaiah himself does this. Do Jacob or Israel the singluar individual walk the earth again in the last days according to Isaiah or is he writing about God's chosen people in the last days? Amazing that it is so difficult of a concept.

Isa41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. 9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Hogmeister wrote: ↑March 27th, 2024, 3:20 am

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 7:40 pm

Being There wrote: ↑August 25th, 2023, 7:26 pm

probably true,
but the Lord only has 1 end-time DS servant.
And that's John - who gathers Israel.

There is only 1 servant - the Lord's end-time servant,
this is the theme all through Isaiah -
who is the Davidic Servant, the Marred Servant,
the Mighty and Strong One - the one who the Lord commissions to restore His people - The House of Israel;
and it's NOT Joseph Smith.


this is the theme all through Isaiah.

"the Lord empowers him;
"when my God became my strength— " Isaiah 49:5
after the "trials he endures have served their purpose to purify, perfect, and sanctify him to a higher spiritual level,

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. 9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

thereby qualifying him for a new commission.
Jacob/Israel’s restoration, to which task he was foreordained (v 1), Jehovah augments with a mission
to serve as a light to the “nations” or “Gentiles”

all through Isaiah there are so many references to a (meaning 1) servant of the Lord.

just take this one example alone -
Isaiah 49 - which is all about this servant - the Davidic Servant.

https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/49


Why did Nephi, of all places, stop in the middle of his own writing and quote
chapters 48 and 49 of of Isaiah (compare 1 Nephi 20 and 21) WHY ?
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/48
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/49
maybe he is trying to tell us something using Isaiah that he was forbidden to say, 1 Nephi 14:28
that he "durst not speak" 1Nephi 22:29.
Maybe by using Isaiah's words, "Nephi is trying to tell us something indirectly what he himself cannot say directly.
"The things he was not permitted to say plainly - in order to protect those who may be spiritually vulnerable -
are quite appropriate for him to say indirectly.
He can do so at least in part by quoting Isaiah."

about the "Great and Marvelous work" - Israel's restoration,"apostasy among the people of the Lord as the stage for his fulfillment of prophetic events, a prophet's prophesying, the coming forth of new revelations, the Lord's servant hated by the wicked of his people,
the Lord's saving intervention, an endowment of divine power, Israel's physical restoration, a light amid apostasy,
release from bondage, a new exodus, a new wandering in the wilderness, divine guidance and miracles,
return from dispersion, assistance from Gentiles, the destruction of the wicked...."


Jehovah’s servant
Isaiah 49
2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—in the shadow of his hand he hid me.He has made me into a polished arrow—in his quiver he kept me secret.

Jehovah’s “hiding” and “secreting” his servant suggests that the world knows nothing of his calling until the time Jehovah empowers him. Even Jehovah’s people don’t know him or are ignorant of him until he fulfills his mission: “You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you” (Isaiah 55:5). He himself, therefore, is one of the “new things” Jehovah does suddenly that test the loyalty of his people (Isaiah 42:9; 48:6-8; 51:4-11). The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically (Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3)

and this -

if there were many servants - (plural) -
then WHY doesn't the Lord say "servants" - (plural) - instead of servant -
like He does in verse 1.

Isaiah 42
Jehovah’s appointing his servant as a light to the nations leads to a new exodus or to captivity.

*** 1 My servant whom I sustain, my chosen one in whom I delight,
him I have endowed with my Spirit;
he will dispense justice to the nations.

Jehovah sustains and endows with his Spirit his servant (Isaiah 11:2; 48:16; 61:1), who here appears under his spiritual (and often suffering) persona (Isaiah 49:7; 50:7-10; 52:14; 53:11). Jehovah commissions him to restore justice to the “nations” or “Gentiles” (goyim), inferring that there is no justice or only a façade of justice among his people and the nations (Isaiah 5:7; 10:1-2; 59:11, 15). Types of Jehovah’s “servant” or vassal include Isaiah (Isaiah 20:3), Eliakim (Isaiah 22:20), Cyrus (Isaiah 44:26-28), Hezekiah (Isaiah 37:15-20; 38:2-6), Moses (Isaiah 63:11-14), and David (Isaiah 55:3-4).

Because no one type covers all the end-time roles Jehovah’s servant fulfills, Isaiah presents him under different personas. Consistent with persons in the seraph category, his mission, like those of Moses and Elijah, is international in scope (Exodus 3:16-22; 1 Kings 19:15-16). At first directed to the Jacob/Israel category of Jehovah’s people dispersed among the nations (Isaiah 11:10-12; 41:8-9; 43:1-8; 49:8-12), the servant’s task is to bring as many as will repent to renew the covenant with Jehovah and to ascend to higher spiritual categories (v 21; Isaiah 44:1-5, 21-22; 45:19-25; 46:12-13).

-----------------------------

the whole reasoning behind the need for many servants,
is so then some can justify the need for Joseph Smith to return as one of them.

YES, there will be many, as there are already many now, that serve the Lord,
so they are His servants.
You, and even I, could be one of these end-time servants that have a mission and play an important role;
the Lord has a plan and a mission for anyone that serves Him,
but it's just not the same, as the Lord's one and only end-time Davidic servant and his mission or missions,
and that He empowers and works through and that we should be looking for.

I have written 10 pages on why the servant that Isaiah is writing about is not a singular individual just as the woman or virgin often is not. The prophets often use a singular form to represent the many or a people, depending on the "role" of the people the prophet want to illustrate or address. The name of Jacob or Israel is often used to represent God's people in different time periods and not the ancient singular individual with the same name, Isaiah himself does this. Do Jacob or Israel the singluar individual walk the earth again in the last days according to Isaiah or is he writing about God's chosen people in the last days? Amazing that it is so difficult of a concept.

Isa41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. 9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

I get what you're saying, but I think the difference here is that they are proper names. So Jacob was a real person and Jacob was his name. Just as I bear the name of my father, Jacobs people bear his name and can, in this context, be collectively referred to as "Jacob".

However, with the end-time servant, we are describing a title or position. We don't have a name for this person, just a role.
So there is a distinct difference in my view.

Hogmeister wrote: ↑March 27th, 2024, 3:20 am I have written 10 pages on why the servant that Isaiah is writing about is not a singular individual

Isaiah gives the count; "Thy sons have fainted, save these two"...

Also throughout scripture we have:

Two anointed ones
Two staves
Two olive trees
Two sticks
Two goats
The Brand and the Branch
The stay and the staff
The Rod and the Root
The prophet and the priest
The Seer and the Spokesman

I agree that there will be more than these two, but these two are the heads of each of their kingdoms, the northern and southern. When the two kingdoms join (Ezekiel 37), the two staffs of leadership will join and become one in the hand of the Davidic prince.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 27th, 2024, 11:45 pm

Hogmeister wrote: ↑March 27th, 2024, 3:20 am I have written 10 pages on why the servant that Isaiah is writing about is not a singular individual

Isaiah gives the count; "Thy sons have fainted, save these two"...

Also throughout scripture we have:

Two anointed ones
Two staves
Two olive trees
Two sticks
Two goats
The Brand and the Branch
The stay and the staff
The Rod and the Root
The prophet and the priest
The Seer and the Spokesman

I agree that there will be more than these two, but these two are the heads of each of their kingdoms, the northern and southern. When the two kingdoms join (Ezekiel 37), the two staffs of leadership will join and become one in the hand of the Davidic prince.

The horse and the chariot
Ephraim and Judah

Hogmeister wrote: ↑March 28th, 2024, 6:32 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑March 27th, 2024, 11:45 pm

Hogmeister wrote: ↑March 27th, 2024, 3:20 am I have written 10 pages on why the servant that Isaiah is writing about is not a singular individual

Isaiah gives the count; "Thy sons have fainted, save these two"...

Also throughout scripture we have:

Two anointed ones
Two staves
Two olive trees
Two sticks
Two goats
The Brand and the Branch
The stay and the staff
The Rod and the Root
The prophet and the priest
The Seer and the Spokesman

I agree that there will be more than these two, but these two are the heads of each of their kingdoms, the northern and southern. When the two kingdoms join (Ezekiel 37), the two staffs of leadership will join and become one in the hand of the Davidic prince.

The horse and the chariot
Ephraim and Judah

The horse and the chariot, is that from Isaiah 43:17?