Second Annointing seems stupid

[ransomme]

Consider Baptism.

Originally, baptism was for the remission of sin all the way back to the Fall itself. In other words, you become completely purified.

Yet... nothing effectual happens. It's as much of a ritual as any other.

One day...we'll get the real thing and when a person is cleansed of all sin, the adversary will no longer be in your head. He'll be gone. He entered the first minds, Adam and Eve in the fall and it's been that way since then. The true baptism ends that.

the time will come.

That's a false tradition about baptism.

Baptism doesn't cleanse you, the Holy Ghost and cleanse you.

Baptism is a symbol of death and rebirth. Baptism is a "sign…that we will do the will of God, and there is no other way beneath the heavens whereby God hath ordained for man to come to Him to be saved" (TPJS, p. 198).

Moroni 6:4
And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost...

2 Nephi 31:13
...with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism...

Moses 6:60
For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified

[Original_Intent]

Consider Baptism.

Originally, baptism was for the remission of sin all the way back to the Fall itself. In other words, you become completely purified.

Yet... nothing effectual happens. It's as much of a ritual as any other.

One day...we'll get the real thing and when a person is cleansed of all sin, the adversary will no longer be in your head. He'll be gone. He entered the first minds, Adam and Eve in the fall and it's been that way since then. The true baptism ends that.

the time will come.

That's a false tradition about baptism.

Baptism doesn't cleanse you, the Holy Ghost and cleanse you.

Baptism is a symbol of death and rebirth. Baptism is a "sign…that we will do the will of God, and there is no other way beneath the heavens whereby God hath ordained for man to come to Him to be saved" (TPJS, p. 198).

Moroni 6:4
And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost...

2 Nephi 31:13
...with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism...

Moses 6:60
For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified

Correct. Baptism is a token that we give to our fellow man (and God) that we are doing something. All physical ordinances are the same. They are a sign from us, and that sign can be anything from completely sincere and with the requisite dedication (if this is the case we will receive heaven's ratification shortly) but it can also be nothing but virtue signaling and following family tradition and joining the culture club. Which accomplishes nothings without the ratification. It is thus with every ordinance, sadly it is only with temple marriage that it is spelled out to us that the heavenly ratification is required for the eternal marriage to be in force.

[Ymarsakar]

Consider Baptism.

Originally, baptism was for the remission of sin all the way back to the Fall itself. In other words, you become completely purified.

Yet... nothing effectual happens. It's as much of a ritual as any other.

One day...we'll get the real thing and when a person is cleansed of all sin, the adversary will no longer be in your head. He'll be gone. He entered the first minds, Adam and Eve in the fall and it's been that way since then. The true baptism ends that.

the time will come.

That's a false tradition about baptism.

Baptism doesn't cleanse you, the Holy Ghost and cleanse you.

Baptism is a symbol of death and rebirth. Baptism is a "sign…that we will do the will of God, and there is no other way beneath the heavens whereby God hath ordained for man to come to Him to be saved" (TPJS, p. 198).

Moroni 6:4
And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost...

2 Nephi 31:13
...with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism...

Moses 6:60
For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified

Correct. Baptism is a token that we give to our fellow man (and God) that we are doing something. All physical ordinances are the same. They are a sign from us, and that sign can be anything from completely sincere and with the requisite dedication (if this is the case we will receive heaven's ratification shortly) but it can also be nothing but virtue signaling and following family tradition and joining the culture club. Which accomplishes nothings without the ratification. It is thus with every ordinance, sadly it is only with temple marriage that it is spelled out to us that the heavenly ratification is required for the eternal marriage to be in force.

viewtopic.php?t=72047

Baptism is cleansing your body and everyone can do it. You can say that taking a bath or shower is just a ritual sign, that you don't need to do it, but that's not gonna fly in modern first world societies.

[Reluctant Watchman]

To the OP. I agree that the LDS org version of Second Anointing seems a bit pointless. Considering what they have done to the practice by distorting doctrine, it could be considered evil.

But, the original intent of a second anointing can be vitally important. A true Second Anointing comes from Christ himself. That is beyond powerful.

[HereWeGo]

There is a part of a person's SA that put a final nail in the coffin, for me, that SA has no merit.

A number of people have gone public that when the SA was complete, the facilitators asked the recipients if they had any suggestions for others who were worthy for their SA.

[Telavian]

There is a part of a person's SA that put a final nail in the coffin, for me, that SA has no merit.

A number of people have gone public that when the SA was complete, the facilitators asked the recipients if they had any suggestions for others who were worthy for their SA.

Yes, you would think it was 100% revelation from God. God is appearing and saying the Smith family has qualified so do their second anointing.
Even if they weren't asking then how could the leadership is not flying out to some remote parts of the world and doing it to some rando person there?
Are those people not about to be Christlike in word and deed?

[Good & Global]

Each Stake President used to keep two Recommend books in their desks. One for the rank and file members to go to the Temple (as today). The other for faithful old members to receive the Second Anointing ordinance. The Second Anointing ordinance was given much more frequent on the recommendation of Stake Presidents (until the early 20th Century). That changed under Heber J. Grant to less frequent and at a "Federal Level".

So presumably after HJG it was then only given to family members and friends who knew about it or was made known to them by the same. Once again, taking perhaps things of God and making them into personal benefits of nepotism or cronyism like with all else in the church.

[Nobody]

There is a part of a person's SA that put a final nail in the coffin, for me, that SA has no merit.

A number of people have gone public that when the SA was complete, the facilitators asked the recipients if they had any suggestions for others who were worthy for their SA.

Yes, you would think it was 100% revelation from God. God is appearing and saying the Smith family has qualified so do their second anointing.
Even if they weren't asking then how could the leadership is not flying out to some remote parts of the world and doing it to some rando person there?
Are those people not about to be Christlike in word and deed?

I think what you’re missing is the history of the 2nd annointing.

There was this “power” that was given to select priesthood holders to seal up others unto eternal life, so they ran around sealing others up unto eternal life(this would have been like 1900-1930 if I remember correctly). My understanding is that these were done like any other priesthood blessing or patriarchal blessing, it wasn’t a whole ceremony like it is today.

Over time the church completely halted this practice and has become what it is today, where most members have heard of it. But the idea isn’t that God selected them for eternal life, it’s that priesthood keys/power is being used to seal them to eternal life.

Not that I agree with it or think it’s legit, but that’s what’s going on and that’s why they would ask for “referrals”.

There’s a book I read about this like 8 years ago, I’ll see if I can find it.

[FrankOne]

Consider Baptism.

Originally, baptism was for the remission of sin all the way back to the Fall itself. In other words, you become completely purified.

Yet... nothing effectual happens. It's as much of a ritual as any other.

One day...we'll get the real thing and when a person is cleansed of all sin, the adversary will no longer be in your head. He'll be gone. He entered the first minds, Adam and Eve in the fall and it's been that way since then. The true baptism ends that.

the time will come.

That's a false tradition about baptism.

Baptism doesn't cleanse you, the Holy Ghost and cleanse you.

Baptism is a symbol of death and rebirth. Baptism is a "sign…that we will do the will of God, and there is no other way beneath the heavens whereby God hath ordained for man to come to Him to be saved" (TPJS, p. 198).

Moroni 6:4
And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost...

2 Nephi 31:13
...with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism...

Moses 6:60
For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified

traditional teachings weren't the reason that I wrote that.

My 'far side' point of view:

Baptism cleanses.
The Holy spirit can now enter, permanently. Not just a day of pentecost moment that fills you and then leaves you. Not a moment of burning in your bosom that astounds you and then is gone. Not a moment of inspiration which comes and goes.

the vessel needs to be cleansed and the HG then resides within you like a fire and manifests 24 hrs a day.

We are so far from the reality of Baptism , the Holy Ghost and the second comforter, (the mind of Christ), that it is incomprehensible. We pretend! We pretend that we are where we are not.

We walk in darkness at noon day.

edit to add:

If you can show me one person that has been cleansed by the Holy Ghost after baptism and that walks as a true saint, devoid of dual mind that tempts, contends, competes, and discourages, then I will accept your theory.

No one is cleansed by baptism or the holy ghost today.

[Good & Global]

There is a part of a person's SA that put a final nail in the coffin, for me, that SA has no merit.

A number of people have gone public that when the SA was complete, the facilitators asked the recipients if they had any suggestions for others who were worthy for their SA.

Yes, you would think it was 100% revelation from God. God is appearing and saying the Smith family has qualified so do their second anointing.
Even if they weren't asking then how could the leadership is not flying out to some remote parts of the world and doing it to some rando person there?
Are those people not about to be Christlike in word and deed?

I think what you’re missing is the history of the 2nd annointing.

There was this “power” that was given to select priesthood holders to seal up others unto eternal life, so they ran around sealing others up unto eternal life(this would have been like 1900-1930 if I remember correctly). My understanding is that these were done like any other priesthood blessing or patriarchal blessing, it wasn’t a whole ceremony like it is today.

Over time the church completely halted this practice and has become what it is today, where most members have heard of it. But the idea isn’t that God selected them for eternal life, it’s that priesthood keys/power is being used to seal them to eternal life.

Not that I agree with it or think it’s legit, but that’s what’s going on and that’s why they would ask for “referrals”.

There’s a book I read about this like 8 years ago, I’ll see if I can find it.

Sounds good. That would be interesting to find to see how they practiced it post 1900s.

One thing to note is that they were doing Second Annointings before 1900 as they were documented by Wilford Woodruff in the recently released materials by the church. The organization of course don't draw attention to it but it's in there. Just have to search for it. Wilford Woodruff died before 1900.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff

[Good & Global]

We are so far from the reality of Baptism , the Holy Ghost and the second comforter, (the mind of Christ), that it is incomprehensible. We pretend! We pretend that we are where we are not.

No one is cleansed by baptism or the holy ghost today.

This is what always struck me in church. Hands are laid for the reception of the Holy Ghost.

Yet people are construing these physical acts as if the spiritual had already happened. When there should be the necessary work for the spiritual. I never understood this but just went along with oh well if the prophet is led by God and that is how it is in the church assumption.

Here is another example in my mind of Brethren excusing away the spiritual, you be the judge.

https://www.ldsliving.com/how-do-i-know ... ar/s/10515
https://www.ldsliving.com/the-precious- ... it/s/10054

This is what he is teaching the youth that are eager to pursue righteousness.

[Nobody]

Yes, you would think it was 100% revelation from God. God is appearing and saying the Smith family has qualified so do their second anointing.
Even if they weren't asking then how could the leadership is not flying out to some remote parts of the world and doing it to some rando person there?
Are those people not about to be Christlike in word and deed?

I think what you’re missing is the history of the 2nd annointing.

There was this “power” that was given to select priesthood holders to seal up others unto eternal life, so they ran around sealing others up unto eternal life(this would have been like 1900-1930 if I remember correctly). My understanding is that these were done like any other priesthood blessing or patriarchal blessing, it wasn’t a whole ceremony like it is today.

Over time the church completely halted this practice and has become what it is today, where most members have heard of it. But the idea isn’t that God selected them for eternal life, it’s that priesthood keys/power is being used to seal them to eternal life.

Not that I agree with it or think it’s legit, but that’s what’s going on and that’s why they would ask for “referrals”.

There’s a book I read about this like 8 years ago, I’ll see if I can find it.

Sounds good. That would be interesting to find to see how they practiced it post 1900s.

One thing to note is that they were doing Second Annointings before 1900 as they were documented by Wilford Woodruff in the recently released materials by the church. The organization of course don't draw attention to it but it's in there. Just have to search for it. Wilford Woodruff died before 1900.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff

Found something else that I read that does a good job with the history of the Second Anointing.:
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N01_12.pdf

This goes way back to the 1840s, but was a relatively small number of recipients. The number seemed to increase around 1880 and there was conversation about too many people having received it:

Once the basic format was established, second anointings were regularly
administered in the temples at Saint George and Logan, and later at Salt Lake
City and Manti; the ordinance typically was performed by the temple president, who, with the exception of Wilford Woodruff at Saint George for some
years, was not an apostle. During the 1883 discussions in the School of the
Prophets, President Taylor indicated that too many members had received the
higher ordinances of the temple before they had proven themselves worthy.
He and George Q. Cannon felt it would be advisible for the endowment to be
administered in separate stages, with the fulness of the priesthood given only
after the candidate had proven himself or herself worthy of the higher blessing.77
Because of the proliferation of second anointings, the First Presidency issued,
over the next few decades, several procedural requirements.
On 7 October 1889, six months after he was sustained president of the
Church, Woodruff "spoke in regard to second anointing [sic] and said the
Presidents of Stakes were to be judges of who were worthy to receive them."
He also indicated that "it was an ordinance of the eternal world which be
longed particularly to old men."
Although stake presidents were shortly
thereafter given final signatory authority for general temple recommends, a
6 November 1891 First Presidency directive indicated that second anointings
were still to be given final approval only by the president of the Church.79

In 1901, Lorenzo Snow, fourth Church president, stated "that persons who
are recommended for second anointings should be those who have made an
exceptional record, that they are persons who will never apostatize."
so
Other
early twentieth-century First Presidency writings and correspondence81
indicates that at various times the following criteria of worthiness were applied:

• (1) Unquestionable and unshaken integrity to the work of the Lord.

• (2) "Valient in the defense of the truth," "active in all good works," have
  borne "the heat and burden of the day, and endured faithfully to the
  end."

• (3) Obedience to commandments such as tithing, law of chastity, honesty,
  etc.

• (4) Age was to be considered, but a member did not need to be "old" to
  receive the ordinance; recipients, however, typically were over fifty
  years old.

• (5) Candidates had to have "gathered with the body of the Church."
  Faithful "non-gatherers" would be "dealt with by the authority on the
  other side of the veil."

• (6) Candidates could not be guilty of any major sins — e.g., a man who
  committed adultery after receiving his end

It goes on to show the policy change that reduced frequency of second anointings. In 1926, President Grant said:

"Second Blessings are only given by the President of the Church upon
recommendation of a member of the Council of the Twelve." Evidently in
response to a stake president's inquiry, the president continued: "At some time
when one of the Apostles is in your Stake, if he feels to properly recommend
Brother . . . the matter will [be] taken under advisement."

The estimated totals are here:

While figures are not available for each president, averages proportioned
to their dates in office would indicate that Wilford Woodruff authorized nearly
2,000 or an average of just over 300 each year the Salt Lake Temple operated
during his administration.Lorenzo Snow apparently also authorized about
2,000 second anointings, roughly twice as many per year as had Woodruff.
Joseph F. Smith apparently authorized about 4,000 anointings, or less than
half as many per year as his predecessor. And Heber J. Grant apparently authorized only a few hundred for an annual average only one-tenth that of his
predecessor. In the Salt Lake Temple the frequency of second anointings
peaked at the turn of the century during President Snow's short administration
and fell sharply in 1922 to a mere trickle by 1928. After 1928, the average
was less than two per year for at least the next decade and a half. Data after
1941 are not presently available to historians. By 1941, a total of 6,000 second
anointings for the living and over 2,000 for the dead had been administered
in the Salt Lake Temple during the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
Three-fourths of the total were for the living; and three-fifths of the total were
for women. Counting all temples, just under 15,000 second anointings had
been performed for the living by 1941, and just over 6,000 for the dead

Anyways, there's a lot to unpack in that paper and this may warrant it's own thread. Happy to create a new thread if anyone wants that.

[Good & Global]

I suppose it's possible it's just the lingering effects of the Brighamite spell upon me, but this makes me a little uncomfortable. And I realize that's fine. I can choose to engage in the discussion or not. But isn't this an ordinance we have plenty of reason to suppose is both legit and very sacred? To be clear, I realize it's totally possible it got perverted by Brigham Young along with everything else. But does it not seem pretty clear that Jesus was administering the washing of the feet at the Last Supper as a sacred ordinance, a Second Annointing that was essential to "have part with [Him]"?

Is the OP purpose to criticize the idea of a Second Annointing entirely, or just as perceived and administered by the LDS church?

I would say yes it is the lingering effects of the Brighamite spell which we all have residuals that are still being gradually overcome.

I do not think the OP is introducing this in anyway to openly mock the Savior. Otherwise I think we all might object to that. However, your point is fair the Savior did do this as an act of symbolism. It underscored how the greatest is servant of all.

As you can see in today's church not only has this practice been perverted but the teaching it illustrates has also been perverted. The Brethren are above the people. They are the rockstars. The others are their fans. This is evident even in the construction of General Conference centers. Layers of authorities on different levels vertically raised from the assembly floor nothing like in ancient times where they "took the floor" by standing in front of multiple levels of attendees. One could say it all is by design.

[TheDuke]

Obviously there is a Calling and Election Made Sure. So, why not a second anointing? HOWEVER, I agree the way it is handled doesn't seem to fit the bill in any way.

C&E is about god telling you that you have earned the "elect" status and that he knows you and that any sins you commit after obtaining it will be yours to bear, i.e. no more help from the atonement. So, does it make sense the Lord has an ordinance? Yes. The is a misconception on FF that only Jesus can confer you're C&E where it says in all scriptures the Holy Spirit of Promise or Second Comforter confers it. That is the Holy Ghost. In fact, the baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost is conferring upon you C&E or making you "elect". That is just the definition of it.

Now, we know that several people on the earth had the power to seal up any and everything, like Elijah. So, he had (at the time) the authority of the HSoP. He could perform an ordinance and convey a C&E and that would be same as the second anointing. It is said that Joseph had the sealing power as well. So, he could perform an ordinance, not sure the format would matter.

Now, does that mean BY on down have that level of sealing power? I don't think so, and if they did, it would take the Lord's intervention on each person. That seems possible to me but doesn't seem how it is being performed. so, it seems wrongly implemented and of limited if any value.

However, the claim above that the endowment and celestial marriages are invalid, is just WRONG. I know otherwise. However, those ordinances only promise the ordinance will be valid if sealed by the HSoP. Obtaining the HSoP is the task. As I said above it is exactly the same as baptism. We choose to be baptized by water. The HG or HSoP comes to us to give us the baptism of fire and HG when we're ready and are "just men made perfect". It isn't something we ask for. We ask by water and we are sealed up by fire.

The same concept should be in existence for C&E at any level, even celestial marriage. To assume every PSR has the sealing authority, under the current administration, seems a long, long stretch. IMO.

Because, something performed by man is not the same.

Baptism, now there's something appropriate for us to administer, but a guarantee of salvation? Yeah, good luck with having God recognize that, let alone Justice.

Besides the pattern in the scriptures is that it is done via divine heavenly representation such as, God's voice, the Father, the Son, a messenger from God, etc.

Besides all ceremonies are only symbolic. Covenants need to be lived up to, fulfilled. Covenants, and ceremonies are promises of future blessings, not the actual thing. The actual things only come via divine manifestation.

Also, men like Enoch, Elijah, Nephi son of Helaman, etc. obtained the "sealing power" but that doesn't mean that they can "seal" or command whatever they want. For one they wouldn't want to, and secondly they only seal things in the name of Jesus, being one with Him, IE according to God's will.

I don't think a single PSR/Q15 has the "sealing" authority like Enoch, Elijah, Nephi, etc.

I agree with everything you said here except the word "symbolic". I do feel the ordinances are required. they are only binding when sealed up. But I do think they are required. I don't think Jesus was joking when he said you had to be baptized of water and fire and be born again to live with him and the father. but not just symbolic (well depends on what you meant by "symbolic" also, perhaps we are saying the same thing.).

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

So your wife washes your feet or some nonsense (i really dont know all about it) and your guaranteed salvation? My FIL was an uppity-up in the churchs financial department. Im not sure what he did exactly but he always golfed and hung out with the church big-wigs. Always bragged about having dinner with "Elder Whatshisnuts and his wife." He was pretty open about how he and his with had their second annointing. Sure the guy was nice but he was also kind of a pompous fellow. Which makes me believe that this whole second annointing is some made up horseplay and actually has no affect on anyones salvation. I mean really, is this what God has set aside for someone to guarantee their eternal salvation? Seems a bit assinine to me.

Am I the only one who suspects that religious leaders keep making up "heavenly rewards" to keep the faithful in the boat, and promise them things they really don't have to deliver on in this life?

Joseph Smith was a master at it. After nearly twenty years of money/treasure digging, he realized that promising the diggers a reward of buried treasure required that he keep moving the goal posts. "Opps, you didn't say the incantation just right so the guardian angel moved it deeper into the ground. No treasure for you". Or how about, "You didn't sacrifice the dog and spread the blood around the digging sight properly so the guardian angel moved the chest. No treasure for you."

When it comes to religion the goal posts never have to be moved. The goal posts are safely off in the heavenly end zone. Which frees you to make up all sorts of promises you never have to deliver on in this life. You have to die to get them. No need for the treasure guardian angel to move the promised rewards deeper in the ground.

The entire doctrine of Exaltation, something that Jesus never taught, may have been created by Jospeh Smith in order to make bigger and better promises to people in order to keep them following him and keep them in the boat. How is it possible to call the doctrine of exaltation a restoration of Christ's true teachings when Jesus never taught it? Something doesn't jive here.

The second anointing seems to fall into the "bigger and better promises" con. If you follow me, and if you stay in the boat, and if you keep giving me your money and your time and your allegiance and obey me, and do whatever I tell you, and if you accept what I say as the word of God, then not only will you get exaltation in the next life, but I will wash your feet and tell you that you're on the team. You've made it. No need to wait until you die. You're exaltation is assured. Touchdown!

The second anointing is a religious carrot. An invention created to nudge, control, persuade, and direct the middle Management. The worker bees. The volunteer workforce That keeps the wheels rolling. And if the carrot doesn't work, they bring out the sticks.

This doesn't pass the smell test.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

The second anointing makes your calling and election sure. That is a final judgment of your faithfulness here on earth. The only person who can make the final judgment of your life is God. Not some fallible mortal who is incapable of seeing the heart and mind.

[Good & Global]

The second anointing makes your calling and election sure. That is a final judgment of your faithfulness here on earth. The only person who can make the final judgment of your life is God. Not some fallible mortal who is incapable of seeing the heart and mind.

Finally! someone says it

[TheDuke]

The second anointing makes your calling and election sure. That is a final judgment of your faithfulness here on earth. The only person who can make the final judgment of your life is God. Not some fallible mortal who is incapable of seeing the heart and mind.

this is of course true. However, it is conceivable that god uses his leaders to perform the ordinance, like baptism. To me it is valid that an ordinance exists. I already stated that it doesn't feel like it is implemented correctly as done today. Seems it would require something difficult in a system of 17M people to really work. I don't see it.

[LDS Physician]

My problem with this "ordinance" is that there is no scriptural account of its revealing to a prophet. If it is an actual ordinance from the Lord, why is there no record of it?

[TheDuke]

Consider Baptism.

Originally, baptism was for the remission of sin all the way back to the Fall itself. In other words, you become completely purified.

Yet... nothing effectual happens. It's as much of a ritual as any other.

One day...we'll get the real thing and when a person is cleansed of all sin, the adversary will no longer be in your head. He'll be gone. He entered the first minds, Adam and Eve in the fall and it's been that way since then. The true baptism ends that.

the time will come.

That's a false tradition about baptism.

Baptism doesn't cleanse you, the Holy Ghost and cleanse you.

Baptism is a symbol of death and rebirth. Baptism is a "sign…that we will do the will of God, and there is no other way beneath the heavens whereby God hath ordained for man to come to Him to be saved" (TPJS, p. 198).

Moroni 6:4
And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost...

2 Nephi 31:13
...with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism...

Moses 6:60
For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified

traditional teachings weren't the reason that I wrote that.

My 'far side' point of view:

Baptism cleanses.
The Holy spirit can now enter, permanently. Not just a day of pentecost moment that fills you and then leaves you. Not a moment of burning in your bosom that astounds you and then is gone. Not a moment of inspiration which comes and goes.

the vessel needs to be cleansed and the HG then resides within you like a fire and manifests 24 hrs a day.

We are so far from the reality of Baptism , the Holy Ghost and the second comforter, (the mind of Christ), that it is incomprehensible. We pretend! We pretend that we are where we are not.

We walk in darkness at noon day.

edit to add:

If you can show me one person that has been cleansed by the Holy Ghost after baptism and that walks as a true saint, devoid of dual mind that tempts, contends, competes, and discourages, then I will accept your theory.

No one is cleansed by baptism or the holy ghost today.

where does it say that anyone is cleansed by the Holy Ghost? We are cleansed by the atonement. We may be taught by or witnessed by the HG. We not cleansed by it.

Your claim of needing to obtain perfection in this life to be worthy of god, is a bit off. Their are several reasons for making errors in this telestial sphere. One surely is "sin" by doing what we know is wrong or not doing what we feel is right. However, the scriptures make it clear that there is also "transgression" which is not a sin and "infirmities" which are not our fault but part of the world we are in. God gave men weakness. Some are in this world only, some can and others cannot be overcome. Jesus freely pays for transgressions/infirmities as they are not our fault. Sins on the other hand require repentance and overcoming.

None but Jesus can overcome everything in this life. Don't put people down that are truly trying and doing their best as Jesus, not the HG will take care of the things out of our control.

[blitzinstripes]

The role of the church is to help people find the path to salvation. Not to be gate keepers. The Lord himself has said that he employs no servant there. Help people along. Baptize and teach repentance.

But the Lord alone, manages the goalposts.

[Good & Global]

The role of the church is to help people find the path to salvation. Not to be gate keepers. The Lord himself has said that he employs no servant there. Help people along. Baptize and teach repentance.

But the Lord alone, manages the goalposts.

Agreed this is also why I find the doctrine that Joseph and/or any prophet/apostle will judge the people of their dispensation to be part of the gatekeeper false doctrine. We are told Christ alone will judge people and again no servant necessary. Some servants just want to be employed forever and keep getting those paychecks imo.

[TheDuke]

The role of the church is to help people find the path to salvation. Not to be gate keepers. The Lord himself has said that he employs no servant there. Help people along. Baptize and teach repentance.

But the Lord alone, manages the goalposts.

that is absolutely not true. He has had judges in all his righteous organizations. Look at Peter and Paul and James judging right after Christ's death. Look at ancient Israel. Look at Nephites, and Zion. Every time they had a leader. It was Moses' FIL that added lower level judges as well by revelation.

There is always a gate keeper. That keeper may or may not be righteous at the time which is an issue I agree, but there has always been one, at least since recorded accounts of god's church or kingdom being on the earth.

You can say some are only temporal, to which the scripture that the Lord has never dealt in temporal laws will counter. but if it makes you feel good that you can get to where you want all alone, go for it. But that isn't where I'm personally interested in going and not where the father dwells.

Show me any time where the gospel has been on the earth and god deals directly with each individual vs. through an assigned middle man, be it a random prophet, or HP or religious judge or religious king or Priest like Melchizedec, or Enoch or BroJ................

[Thinker]

Sure, the idea is great. Until you’re slammed in the face with reality when you stand before the judgement bar and learn what you did was a fairytale. Maybe Brigham will be there to pull you through the veil, which he could do if he has internet and can look up your new name.

Falling feels like flying for a bit - until you hit the ground.

[Thinker]

Brigham is Donald Trump.

Never considered before but possible MMP/reincarnated.