The Prophet WHO TEACHETH LIES

[Silver Pie]

Wait a moment Laban was killed for no good reason.

Aside from the possibility that he was a blood relative to Nephi and that is how he had Lehi's geneaology, Laban did not need to die based on what we know now of the translation of the Book of Mormon (See Gospel Topic Essays) Joseph Smith never even really had need of the actual plates as he translated the book with a rock (he found while treasure digging) in the hat method.

See RMN demonstrates


The letters lit up in hat and appeared in english. The point is Laban didn't need to die as the plates weren't needed. Otherwise if they were needed there was a real problem with Joseph Smith receiving the Book of Abraham (see also Gospel Topic Essays) as the funerary texts were not the writings of Abraham.

Not true. The Book of Mormon is very plain that Lehi would not have remembered everything in the brass plates to teach his children. It was Lehi and Ishmael's descendants who needed the information in the book. Plus, the Book of Mormon is a history of the Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites, with very little from the brass plates included.

Also, we have no solid evidence Joseph looked into his hat to translate the Book of Mormon. Those who claimed that were not there during the translation process - and those who were there said there was a curtain rigged up between the two of them. I don't know why that would be necessary, but my point is that no one saw how he translated the record.

We do have evidence that he had a seer stone that he'd put into his hat and look into the hat to see what it said (because the hat was dark, so any light from the stone could more easily be seen). Kind of weird that folk magic and the like was no big deal in the 19th century, but it sure makes people in the 20th and 21st fly off their rockers in shock and accusation. NOT saying you're doing this: I don't believe you are.

[Silver Pie]

Joseph didn't actual need Mormon's abridgement, but again the people did. The 1830 saints needed to know that the work was legit, that's why the plates came with 8 witnesses. For us, not for Joseph.

Interesting perception. Makes sense.

[Silver Pie]

How was Nephi killing Laban "murder"?

I thought Laban was already actively seeking to ACTUALLY murder their entire family?

I would propose another perspective:

Self-Defense

Who knows, maybe the death of Laban was the very reason their family was able to escape in the wilderness?

This is obvious to me. By their own laws, he deserved death and-as I understand it-it was okay for those he stole from and tried to kill to kill him.

1- He tried to kill Laman
2- They brought their property (great wealth) to buy the plates. He accepted (stole) the wealth, then tried to kill them, so-in my mind-he actually completed the transaction. So, did he steal their wealth or the plates they came to buy?

Twice tried to murder. Once stole an awful lot of wealth. By their law, Nephi was justified in killing him.

Why was he drunk? Laman and Lemuel tell us when they are terrified of the man, claiming he can kill 50 men. There's no way the law condemning Laban to death for attempted murder and robbery could have been fulfilled if Laban hadn't been so drunk. Nephi would have been no match for him.

Also of note in regards to a look at their society: Laman and Lemuel kept threatening to kill their father and Nephi, and it looks to me like they felt justified because it was based on the rules and laws of the society that they had left, even though neither Lehi nor Nephi had tried to kill them nor stole great wealth from them. And they pointed out that they considered the people in Jerusalem righteous people.

I think when we condemn Nephi we are doing it from the perspective of the First World laws of the 20th and 21st centuries, oblivious to what their own laws and perspectives were in that society over 2,600 years ago. Truly, we are incredibly egocentric today.

[TheDuke]

Went to church in Utah today. The EQ lesson started talking about how important it is to prepare for GC by reading RMN's talks, 11 in opening sessions and 7 later sessions to prepare. Then the EQ president (or could have been an HC) talked about two 70's meetings/training in the past month, both "randomly" saying to read RMN talks. He was astounded that both 70's had the same spirit? I told my son that it seemed more like a push from the top and strategy than random spiritual guidance. So, they want to cover 11 talks in 2 EQ meetings in Sept! Scary these Utah Mormons are?

[Shawn Henry]

By their law, Nephi was justified in killing him.

By their own law, sure, but read God's law in section 98 and ask yourself why his actions don't match the law God says he gave Nephi and ask why God mentions Nephi first.

[CMajor]

Went to church in Utah today. The EQ lesson started talking about how important it is to prepare for GC by reading RMN's talks, 11 in opening sessions and 7 later sessions to prepare. Then the EQ president (or could have been an HC) talked about two 70's meetings/training in the past month, both "randomly" saying to read RMN talks. He was astounded that both 70's had the same spirit? I told my son that it seemed more like a push from the top and strategy than random spiritual guidance. So, they want to cover 11 talks in 2 EQ meetings in Sept! Scary these Utah Mormons are?

So scary that it's just not good to attend meetings where the gospel is not being taught. Putting all attention on one man is akin to worshipping him.

Regurgitating talks of RMN for a month...if that doesn't drive away the saints, nothing will. It is a LIE to teach that we must study his talks over the teachings of Jesus Christ for a solid month. But wait, satan doesn't want us worshipping Jesus, he wants us worshipping his Prophet.

These teachings are from RMN, so he can gloriously appear in GC, while we listen anxiously for his next announcement of 50 temples. Sing praises to his name. We thank thee O God for a Prophet- to guide us in these latter days.. and turn our worship towards you and no one else. Read your talks for another 6 months till the next GC...and on and on.

[Cruiserdude]

Went to church in Utah today. The EQ lesson started talking about how important it is to prepare for GC by reading RMN's talks, 11 in opening sessions and 7 later sessions to prepare. Then the EQ president (or could have been an HC) talked about two 70's meetings/training in the past month, both "randomly" saying to read RMN talks. He was astounded that both 70's had the same spirit? I told my son that it seemed more like a push from the top and strategy than random spiritual guidance. So, they want to cover 11 talks in 2 EQ meetings in Sept! Scary these Utah Mormons are?

I had to move from and leave there, it's gotten soooooo ridiculous.... Maybe you are the one mighty and strong that shows up to straighten them out?!? Please get them to correct their ways!!!

[FrankOne]

Prophets in the garbage!
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... king_free/

It might be good to step back and see from a far vantage point. All of this works in a very long term plan.

As we all are discovering, the only important thing exists on a personal level of where a we stand. All the rest outside of us are variables which guide US to where we want to be. The 'false guides us as valuable as the true. We see the false and are repelled by it. We see the true or good and and it illuminates us.

God created all of this. He created the devil himself with clear purpose. It's all divine. Each change we make as we recognize what we truly want is always good. Sometimes those choices lead us to fall into a pit, but it's always by our choice, not by an external 'bad guy'. We are not victims. We are not victims.

Falling into a pit is a great teacher as we rise and climb out, we are strengthened spiritually past the point of when we fell in. Thank the pit for it's giving the exercise of spiritual muscles to climb. In the exercise , our strength increases on the deepest of levels. Thank God for that.

[Shawn Henry]

I don't think that I'd agree with that interpretation of the timing of those watches.

The Day of the Lord is a narrow period of time in and around his "Second Coming". Narrow meaning something like 7 to 14 years or so including the time of great tribulation/sorrow.

I forgot to include this point the first time:

And verily, I say unto you, He hath already come, as it is written of him; and again, when he shall come in the second watch or come in the third watch, blessed are those servants, when he cometh, that he shall find so doing;

This verse identifies the first watch to his coming in the meridian of time.

I think the "Day of the Lord" simply means the time of the Lord. Whenever he comes to the vineyard to work is his day, but who knows for sure.

[TheDuke]

Went to church in Utah today. The EQ lesson started talking about how important it is to prepare for GC by reading RMN's talks, 11 in opening sessions and 7 later sessions to prepare. Then the EQ president (or could have been an HC) talked about two 70's meetings/training in the past month, both "randomly" saying to read RMN talks. He was astounded that both 70's had the same spirit? I told my son that it seemed more like a push from the top and strategy than random spiritual guidance. So, they want to cover 11 talks in 2 EQ meetings in Sept! Scary these Utah Mormons are?

I had to move from and leave there, it's gotten soooooo ridiculous.... Maybe you are the one mighty and strong that shows up to straighten them out?!? Please get them to correct their ways!!!

I think they just wanted to toss me out the door! And they would have, but I had been arguing about non-contention, so they couldn't. they had to follow the prophet!

[Cruiserdude]

Went to church in Utah today. The EQ lesson started talking about how important it is to prepare for GC by reading RMN's talks, 11 in opening sessions and 7 later sessions to prepare. Then the EQ president (or could have been an HC) talked about two 70's meetings/training in the past month, both "randomly" saying to read RMN talks. He was astounded that both 70's had the same spirit? I told my son that it seemed more like a push from the top and strategy than random spiritual guidance. So, they want to cover 11 talks in 2 EQ meetings in Sept! Scary these Utah Mormons are?

I had to move from and leave there, it's gotten soooooo ridiculous.... Maybe you are the one mighty and strong that shows up to straighten them out?!? Please get them to correct their ways!!!

I think they just wanted to toss me out the door! And they would have, but I had been arguing about non-contention, so they couldn't. they had to follow the prophet!

[ransomme]

guess you have no military experience and you feel Capt Moroni, Moses, Joshua, every BoM leader, including Nephi to traded off Laban's life for some golden plates, Enoch and his Zion, David, Samuel, 2000 warriors, on and on and on are "insane" "sick" and "twisted". Every military battle ever fought was a trade off. The difference between the good and the bad is the good would only fight for freedom, not power or money or greed. but all battles for freedom are a trade.

I would guess you're only hope of peace on this earth would have been to vote for Lucifer's plan then, Jesus' plan requires sacrifice as part of freedom. Just glad you're not the one leading our cause of freedom, but being an ANL is considered a good thing by some. BTW had it not been for the others fighting the entire ANL nation would have been killed, but hey.

Wait a moment Laban was killed for no good reason.

There are possible interesting parallels with Laban's death, which reasonably may have happened at Passover, without going into great detail. So he would parallel the firstborn of Egypt, and Nephi the Destroying Angel.

Personally, I am inclined to believe that Lehi's exodus was timed with Passover. And what's more, under the law in Israel Nephi had the right to kill Laban because of the things he did against them.

And what was said to Jesus when He was condemned to death? Something similar to, 'better that one man perrish', right?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I wasn't sure if this was noted previously, but Nephi didn't just get a prompting or some personal impression to kill Laban. The full context is important:

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

[FrankOne]

guess you have no military experience and you feel Capt Moroni, Moses, Joshua, every BoM leader, including Nephi to traded off Laban's life for some golden plates, Enoch and his Zion, David, Samuel, 2000 warriors, on and on and on are "insane" "sick" and "twisted". Every military battle ever fought was a trade off. The difference between the good and the bad is the good would only fight for freedom, not power or money or greed. but all battles for freedom are a trade.

I would guess you're only hope of peace on this earth would have been to vote for Lucifer's plan then, Jesus' plan requires sacrifice as part of freedom. Just glad you're not the one leading our cause of freedom, but being an ANL is considered a good thing by some. BTW had it not been for the others fighting the entire ANL nation would have been killed, but hey.

Wait a moment Laban was killed for no good reason.

Aside from the possibility that he was a blood relative to Nephi and that is how he had Lehi's geneaology, Laban did not need to die based on what we know now of the translation of the Book of Mormon (See Gospel Topic Essays) Joseph Smith never even really had need of the actual plates as he translated the book with a rock (he found while treasure digging) in the hat method.

See RMN demonstrates


The letters lit up in hat and appeared in english. The point is Laban didn't need to die as the plates weren't needed. Otherwise if they were needed there was a real problem with Joseph Smith receiving the Book of Abraham (see also Gospel Topic Essays) as the funerary texts were not the writings of Abraham.

that photo is priceless. Especially examining the look on his face

[ransomme]

guess you have no military experience and you feel Capt Moroni, Moses, Joshua, every BoM leader, including Nephi to traded off Laban's life for some golden plates, Enoch and his Zion, David, Samuel, 2000 warriors, on and on and on are "insane" "sick" and "twisted". Every military battle ever fought was a trade off. The difference between the good and the bad is the good would only fight for freedom, not power or money or greed. but all battles for freedom are a trade.

I would guess you're only hope of peace on this earth would have been to vote for Lucifer's plan then, Jesus' plan requires sacrifice as part of freedom. Just glad you're not the one leading our cause of freedom, but being an ANL is considered a good thing by some. BTW had it not been for the others fighting the entire ANL nation would have been killed, but hey.

Wait a moment Laban was killed for no good reason.

Aside from the possibility that he was a blood relative to Nephi and that is how he had Lehi's geneaology, Laban did not need to die based on what we know now of the translation of the Book of Mormon (See Gospel Topic Essays) Joseph Smith never even really had need of the actual plates as he translated the book with a rock (he found while treasure digging) in the hat method.

See RMN demonstrates


The letters lit up in hat and appeared in english. The point is Laban didn't need to die as the plates weren't needed. Otherwise if they were needed there was a real problem with Joseph Smith receiving the Book of Abraham (see also Gospel Topic Essays) as the funerary texts were not the writings of Abraham.

that photo is priceless. Especially examining the look on his face

The photo is silly, but you may find bits in here interesting including tidbits about the hat (despite the hosts). Oh and serendipitously he also mentioned stuff about Lehi's flight being at Passover.

[ransomme]

-.

Just curious, when the brother of Jared saw God (pre-Jesus God) why did He show him a spirit body which he called Jesus?

In your view, wouldn't the Jesus identity only be the fleshy tabernacled God? Yet He identified Himself as a spirit who is Jesus.

[TheDuke]

-.

Just curious, when the brother of Jared saw God (pre-Jesus God) why did He show him a spirit body which he called Jesus?

In your view, wouldn't the Jesus identity only be the fleshy tabernacled God? Yet He identified Himself as a spirit who is Jesus.

I know you were not addressing this to me. But, I do believe Jesus and all the "souls" in Abraham 3 discussed in the pre-mortal council were indeed souls as it says and already celestial beings that condescended to come here.

The entire story of the BroJ here is complicated and interpreted by a JS in 1829, BTW he still believed his father's view of Unitarian god at that time. I mean Jesus would not have introduced himself as "Jesus Christ" a term he never used in his life, a term that is Anglicized name "Jesus" and Greek word "Christ" not yet invented. He just wouldn't do it. so, some obvious liberties were taken in the translation. That doesn't mean the story isn't true, It surely is. but the exact words aren't. I have mentioned this many times on the forum.

The BoM is written for our day as a testament of Christ. So, the story is written from that perspective. Keep in mind Jesus actually touched the stones with his finger. Physically as we are told, not spiritually. However, it says the BroJ is the first to see Jesus as well. This is disconcerting if taken literally as it would really be a problem for Enoch, Adam, Seth, etc.... as taught by LDS today, would it not?

I believe the simple issue is modern LDS terminology. A "spirit body" is not a "spirit" it is a "soul". Some how LDS (likely under J Fielding S) conflated some terminology. D&C 93 talks of intelligences and spirits. Abraham 3 adds souls and says they were all three there in the pre-mortal council. Yet we only talk of "spirit children" and resurrected beings. In D&C 129 Joseph discusses the difference between spirit beings (just men being made perfect) and souls or resurrected beings. Given 129 is about angelic visitors, he doesn't discuss the "intelligences" or simple spirit beings. BTW 93 says the spirit part and spirit beings cannot be created, not even by god. This is obviously not true for the souls or what is termed "spirit children" as "spirit children" are created by god Therefore a spirit child is different than a normal spirit being, that as yet has no celestial body attached permanently to it. Permanent meaning forever but not such that they cannot be temporarily separated for a short time (condescending).

[TheDuke]

One more point to make on this topic is that at this point in Joseph's early understanding there wasn't even a pre-mortality for us. There was mention of god - the father that is, and even concepts of Jesus being around before mortality, not sure if there are any statements in BoM or bible about HG being pre-mortal (but assumptions are good Joseph and ancients accepted these three along with Lucifer/Satan and perhaps even the arch-angels were pre-mortal). Also, the end was either heaven or hell at that time. It wasn't until Books of Moses and Abraham time that Joseph learned of details of pre-and-post mortality of humans. So, it would have been complex to capture what Jared knew with the existing constructs/language.

[Shawn Henry]

-.

Just curious, when the brother of Jared saw God (pre-Jesus God) why did He show him a spirit body which he called Jesus?

In your view, wouldn't the Jesus identity only be the fleshy tabernacled God? Yet He identified Himself as a spirit who is Jesus.

That's how he introduces himself throughout the BoM: I am Jesus. I am the Father and the Son. The Father, who according to the BoM, the Bible, Lectures on Faith, is a spirit, who is Jesus. The Son is the name of Jesus in a fleshly tabernacle also. Same person, same name. That's why we don't have two different names, because they are the same person.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Or he has two titles... just sayin'