The Prophet WHO TEACHETH LIES

[FrankOne]

BTW Capt Moroni killed many of his own men in battle to save others. It is how life works.

responses that don't treat the last post is getting a bit tedious.

so here goes again: See the specific line that I left of your quote.

Any leader that kills his own men in battle to save the majority is insane. <That is where I stand. I don't care which God you quote or how many scriptures agree with you, it's sick and twisted.

guess you have no military experience and you feel Capt Moroni, Moses, Joshua, every BoM leader, including Nephi to traded off Laban's life for some golden plates, Enoch and his Zion, David, Samuel, 2000 warriors, on and on and on are "insane" "sick" and "twisted". Every military battle ever fought was a trade off. The difference between the good and the bad is the good would only fight for freedom, not power or money or greed. but all battles for freedom are a trade.

I would guess you're only hope of peace on this earth would have been to vote for Lucifer's plan then, Jesus' plan requires sacrifice as part of freedom. Just glad you're not the one leading our cause of freedom, but being an ANL is considered a good thing by some. BTW had it not been for the others fighting the entire ANL nation would have been killed, but hey.

You and I are not only on different pages, we are not even in the same library.
Nephi failed. btw, so I am very clear about this, Murder and self defense are not relative.
Murder resides in the heart of Lucifer.

[Reluctant Watchman]

responses that don't treat the last post is getting a bit tedious.

so here goes again: See the specific line that I left of your quote.

Any leader that kills his own men in battle to save the majority is insane. <That is where I stand. I don't care which God you quote or how many scriptures agree with you, it's sick and twisted.

guess you have no military experience and you feel Capt Moroni, Moses, Joshua, every BoM leader, including Nephi to traded off Laban's life for some golden plates, Enoch and his Zion, David, Samuel, 2000 warriors, on and on and on are "insane" "sick" and "twisted". Every military battle ever fought was a trade off. The difference between the good and the bad is the good would only fight for freedom, not power or money or greed. but all battles for freedom are a trade.

I would guess you're only hope of peace on this earth would have been to vote for Lucifer's plan then, Jesus' plan requires sacrifice as part of freedom. Just glad you're not the one leading our cause of freedom, but being an ANL is considered a good thing by some. BTW had it not been for the others fighting the entire ANL nation would have been killed, but hey.

You and I are not only on different pages, we are not even in the same library.
Nephi failed. btw, so I am very clear about this, Murder and self defense are not relative.
Murder resides in the heart of Lucifer.

So you don’t believe that Nephi killing Laban was commanded of the Lord?

[Shawn Henry]

When Christ was with the Nephites he instructed them (and us) to study the words of Isaiah, because they had application in his day and in the latter days. So the tense thing isn't really a thing.
And I agree, although the scripture applies to RMN, it isn't just him. After all, it says "leaders"... plural.

I see what you're saying, but you really can't lead someone astray after they are already led astray and remain in complete darkness. It's kinda like a car with a dead engine and someone comes along and flattens the tires too, the car already wasn't going anywhere.

If RMN hadn't talked the saints into the death jab, where would they be? Completely lost doing pointless masonic temple work, participating in a false endowment, falsely believing in the infallibility of their leaders, and so and so forth.

So, he killed people who were already spiritual dead and there might even be a plus side. His reckless actions might just serve to wake up many to their awful situation.

[Shawn Henry]

So you don’t believe that Nephi killing Laban was commanded of the Lord?

Sure wasn't.

viewtopic.php?t=68798

[Reluctant Watchman]

So you don’t believe that Nephi killing Laban was commanded of the Lord?

Sure wasn't.

viewtopic.php?t=68798

I disagree w/ your assessment. But what's new...

[FrankOne]

guess you have no military experience and you feel Capt Moroni, Moses, Joshua, every BoM leader, including Nephi to traded off Laban's life for some golden plates, Enoch and his Zion, David, Samuel, 2000 warriors, on and on and on are "insane" "sick" and "twisted". Every military battle ever fought was a trade off. The difference between the good and the bad is the good would only fight for freedom, not power or money or greed. but all battles for freedom are a trade.

I would guess you're only hope of peace on this earth would have been to vote for Lucifer's plan then, Jesus' plan requires sacrifice as part of freedom. Just glad you're not the one leading our cause of freedom, but being an ANL is considered a good thing by some. BTW had it not been for the others fighting the entire ANL nation would have been killed, but hey.

You and I are not only on different pages, we are not even in the same library.
Nephi failed. btw, so I am very clear about this, Murder and self defense are not relative.
Murder resides in the heart of Lucifer.

So you don’t believe that Nephi killing Laban was commanded of the Lord?

He said that the spririt constrained him (if memory serves). This will sound unusual, but I believe that inspiration can be "divine" but can be very "polarized". I use the word polarize to describe "Good vs Evil". Good and evil came after the fall and before that, Peace existed. Although I believe that Nephi did the 'right' thing in order to change the future, he could have said 'no'.

The foundation of this is whether a man follows the law of morality or law of obedience. When a man knows, without a doubt, where he personally stands in morality, the insistence by the spirit to murder in cold blood would be disregarded. If Nephi had disregarded the spirit, it would have proven that he had reached a point of progression that he wouldn't have fit into the future society/wars and barbaric behavior of the populace.

He would have simply walked away as Enoch did to become one with God.. Like a guru would. But... he chose to murder a man in cold blood which dyed him in the wool on a tier of contention, competition, anger, and war.

Duality or polarities serve a purpose in this world. We're here to go through it. Divine beings , in rare times, guide men to act differently than they normally would in order to effect an outcome. ...to steer the future. Joseph Smith was one of those men as well. Bishop John Koyle was another.

[ransomme]

I appreciate your pulling this forward. It clearly shows that RMN felt very deeply that the Vax was a very good thing.

Now you apparently know the intentions of this man. These men say many things. Knowing whether he thought it was a good thing or not is known only to the Creator. Do you believe everything that comes out of the mouths of these men? Obviously, you don't.

Although, I'm sure the "creator" may also have some further insights that many of us don't.

That brought a thought to my mind. Although how to express it succinctly and clearly is another matter.

There will be a time again when language will be "pure and undefiled" (Moses 6:6) again. Perhaps then we can believe everything that people say.

It reminds me of how Swedenborg explained how angels talk. That their speech conveys concepts, intent, emotions, etc.

[ransomme]

So, a question.
Do you accept every detail of the creation story, as taught by Moses in Genesis, as well as the Garden of Eden drama, as entirely true?

yes,
and as being Gods plan.

Glad to hear it.
So... a talking snake?

It's true but not in the literal sense you suggest perhaps bait with here.

Looking at the Hebrew seems to imply that he came as a being of light.

The root of the word has various meanings depending on the vowels and what not.

Serpent
Seraph/Shining one/being off light
Brass/brazen

And thus the brazen serpent in the wilderness.

[ransomme]

Sorry but this scripture is not referring to them.

Says you, but everyone here can see that they are at least a possible match because they were indeed cut off in one day. Joseph and Hyrum were killed in one day and Sidney was voted out in one day. Everyone can see for themselves.

Only a match in type perhaps. Obviously the day spoken of has not come, unless you believe that the Day of the Lord was way back then.

[ransomme]

The point is Laban didn't need to die as the plates weren't needed. Otherwise if they were needed there was a real problem with Joseph Smith receiving the Book of Abraham (see also Gospel Topic Essays) as the funerary texts were not the writings of Abraham.

There is a real problem with the Book of Abraham. It's not endorsed by God; there are not 3 witnesses for it, nor did JS claim it complete.

Also, Laban needed to die so that the Nephites could live. The Nephites needed the Brass Plates, which are not the Book of Mormon plates.

Joseph didn't actual need Mormon's abridgement, but again the people did. The 1830 saints needed to know that the work was legit, that's why the plates came with 8 witnesses. For us, not for Joseph.

Only like 2/3rds or 3/4ths or so of Joseph's work on the Book of Abraham was published (and none of the book of Joseph). He had only prepared that much for publication by the time of his murder.

The Church had the rest of Abraham and the book of Joseph.

[ransomme]

When Christ was with the Nephites he instructed them (and us) to study the words of Isaiah, because they had application in his day and in the latter days. So the tense thing isn't really a thing.
And I agree, although the scripture applies to RMN, it isn't just him. After all, it says "leaders"... plural.

I see what you're saying, but you really can't lead someone astray after they are already led astray and remain in complete darkness. It's kinda like a car with a dead engine and someone comes along and flattens the tires too, the car already wasn't going anywhere.

If RMN hadn't talked the saints into the death jab, where would they be? Completely lost doing pointless masonic temple work, participating in a false endowment, falsely believing in the infallibility of their leaders, and so and so forth.

So, he killed people who were already spiritual dead and there might even be a plus side. His reckless actions might just serve to wake up many to their awful situation.

For one I think the view of these leaders and even prophets are being looked at too narrowly. The Church of is "identified with the Gentiles". It's not just CoJCoLDS leaders.

[Shawn Henry]

Only a match in type perhaps. Obviously the day spoken of has not come, unless you believe that the Day of the Lord was way back then.

The Day of the Lord is a reference to when he comes and he comes 3 times. This is the doctrine of the 3 Watches, which is why the Jews divided the night into 3 watches.

Notice this JST change to Luke 12:38


12:41 For behold, he cometh in the first watch of the night, and he shall also come in the second watch, and again he shall come in the third watch.

12:42 And verily, I say unto you, He hath already come, as it is written of him; and again, when he shall come in the second watch or come in the third watch, blessed are those servants, when he cometh, that he shall find so doing;

Jesus comes 3 times; first, his mortal ministry, second, to the Kirtland temple, and third, to the actual wedding feast. All these are the day of the Lord.

[Shawn Henry]

Only like 2/3rds or 3/4ths or so of Joseph's work on the Book of Abraham was published (and none of the book of Joseph). He had only prepared that much for publication by the time of his murder.

The Church had the rest of Abraham and the book of Joseph.

Do we agree that God did not seal that work, that he did not provide 3 witnesses for it?

Can you also acknowledge a correlation between the fact the only one work has witnesses and the original 1829 revelation where the Lord commands him to pretend to no other gift?

[Robin Hood]

Only like 2/3rds or 3/4ths or so of Joseph's work on the Book of Abraham was published (and none of the book of Joseph). He had only prepared that much for publication by the time of his murder.

The Church had the rest of Abraham and the book of Joseph.

Do we agree that God did not seal that work, that he did not provide 3 witnesses for it?

Can you also acknowledge a correlation between the fact the only one work has witnesses and the original 1829 revelation where the Lord commands him to pretend to no other gift?

Just one point, God doesn't have to provide 3 witnesses for anything. The law of witnesses is a thing, but specifically having 3 of them isn't.

[ransomme]

Only a match in type perhaps. Obviously the day spoken of has not come, unless you believe that the Day of the Lord was way back then.

The Day of the Lord is a reference to when he comes and he comes 3 times. This is the doctrine of the 3 Watches, which is why the Jews divided the night into 3 watches.

Notice this JST change to Luke 12:38


12:41 For behold, he cometh in the first watch of the night, and he shall also come in the second watch, and again he shall come in the third watch.

12:42 And verily, I say unto you, He hath already come, as it is written of him; and again, when he shall come in the second watch or come in the third watch, blessed are those servants, when he cometh, that he shall find so doing;

Jesus comes 3 times; first, his mortal ministry, second, to the Kirtland temple, and third, to the actual wedding feast. All these are the day of the Lord.

I don't think that I'd agree with that interpretation of the timing of those watches.

The Day of the Lord is a narrow period of time in and around his "Second Coming". Narrow meaning something like 7 to 14 years or so including the time of great tribulation/sorrow.

I'll look at those verse more closely, but of the top of my head...

3 appearances during the Day of the Lord:
1 to Zion/New Jerusalem
2 to Jerusalem
3 in glory, dressed in scarlet, to the world.

[ransomme]

Only like 2/3rds or 3/4ths or so of Joseph's work on the Book of Abraham was published (and none of the book of Joseph). He had only prepared that much for publication by the time of his murder.

The Church had the rest of Abraham and the book of Joseph.

Do we agree that God did not seal that work, that he did not provide 3 witnesses for it?

Can you also acknowledge a correlation between the fact the only one work has witnesses and the original 1829 revelation where the Lord commands him to pretend to no other gift?

Sure

Do you put it in, above our below apocrypha?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I appreciate your pulling this forward. It clearly shows that RMN felt very deeply that the Vax was a very good thing.

Now you apparently know the intentions of this man. These men say many things. Knowing whether he thought it was a good thing or not is known only to the Creator. Do you believe everything that comes out of the mouths of these men? Obviously, you don't.

Although, I'm sure the "creator" may also have some further insights that many of us don't.

That brought a thought to my mind. Although how to express it succinctly and clearly is another matter.

There will be a time again when language will be "pure and undefiled" (Moses 6:6) again. Perhaps then we can believe everything that people say.

It reminds me of how Swedenborg explained how angels talk. That their speech conveys concepts, intent, emotions, etc.

I believe it was also Swedenborg who explained that we cannot hide our intentions in heaven. I do know that several of the NDEs that I’ve listened to have stated just that. You cannot lie or be deceptive in heaven.

[InfoWarrior82]

So you don’t believe that Nephi killing Laban was commanded of the Lord?

Sure wasn't.

viewtopic.php?t=68798

How was Nephi killing Laban "murder"?

I thought Laban was already actively seeking to ACTUALLY murder their entire family?

I would propose another perspective:

Self-Defense

Who knows, maybe the death of Laban was the very reason their family was able to escape in the wilderness?

[Shawn Henry]

Just one point, God doesn't have to provide 3 witnesses for anything. The law of witnesses is a thing, but specifically having 3 of them isn't.

It's two or three, and we all know that.

We've also seen how important it was with the BoM. The BoM set the standard and the church didn't care to follow it.

[Shawn Henry]

I don't think that I'd agree with that interpretation of the timing of those watches.

The Day of the Lord is a narrow period of time in and around his "Second Coming". Narrow meaning something like 7 to 14 years or so including the time of great tribulation/sorrow.

I'll look at those verse more closely, but of the top of my head...

3 appearances during the Day of the Lord:
1 to Zion/New Jerusalem
2 to Jerusalem
3 in glory, dressed in scarlet, to the world.

The analogy of the 3 watches of the night would make no sense if the appearances were all rolled into one. Spread out, they also match Jacob 5. The second watch also matches Isaiah 5:1-6 when the Lord removes the hedge of protection from the saints.

These appearances also seem entirely independent from his coming in glory.

[Mamabear]

Prophets in the garbage!
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... king_free/

[Shawn Henry]

Sure

Do you put it in, above our below apocrypha?

I'm not sure, I just know the spirit has impressed upon me that it is a mixed bag where we have to discern it piece by piece and I trust the 1829 revelation.

[Shawn Henry]

How was Nephi killing Laban "murder"?

I thought Laban was already actively seeking to ACTUALLY murder their entire family?

I would propose another perspective:

Self-Defense

Who knows, maybe the death of Laban was the very reason their family was able to escape in the wilderness?

I'll grant you it was self-preservation because they needed the plates, but Nephi's actions don't match D&C 98 and I think that is why Nephi is first mentioned in that section. I don't believe I ever said murder though. I'm simply proposing that counterfeit angels appearing can seem like the real thing.

[Silver Pie]

The actual words do not explicitly state that a prophet is lying but that he is "teaching" lies.
Those lies could have come from somewhere else while not needing to be lies personally constructed by the prophet which I think may be what you are getting at.

Now whether the deception is deliberate or unintentional that can be debated and certainly there carries an enormous burden of speaking for God as an authorized representative which is why we presume they don't really say much but that is another matter.

This is how I see it. One can teach lies while fully believing they are teaching truth (look at those Baptists or Born-Agains who fervently believe the Book of Mormon is evil and Satan-inspired, and they do all in their power to warn people of this book, which testifies of Jesus Christ, his atonement, and resurrection more powerfully than the Bible does).

[Silver Pie]

Ranks #21 on Amazon in Controversial Religious Knowledge

interesting, i didn't know they had lists like these. i wonder how they determine the ranking.

Probably by how many books sell.