Does God live in you?

[Thinker]

Impressive mental gymnastics.
How else could anyone justify human sacrifice and scapegoating as godly?

1) Do you even know what scapegoating is? The scapegoat is not killed.

So, when you're completely ignorant of the OT, someone who understands it is employing 'mental gymnastics'. Wouldn't it be far more logical for you to pick up a topic and study it and then make an assessment?

2) First off, the concept of a scapegoat is not about human sacrifice. The goat and the bullock being sacrificed is not about human sacrifice. The goat and the bullock being sacrificed on the alter is symbolic of two prophets being killed by the wicked, just as Jesus was killed by the wicked. He was not placed on an actual altar. The ritual is simply symbolic of death that is to come.

3) Secondly, these OT rituals are symbolic foreshadowings of what is to come. Jesus being killed being the most obvious. Leviticus 16 is a ritual that foretells of two goats who are equal but will have lots drawn to see which one is killed and which one is driven out. The one to be killed is killed with a bullock (likely meaning another prophet) and the other goat (or prophet) has the sins of Israel placed upon it and is driven off into the wilderness.

1) Apparently you’re projecting & have more to learn about scapegoats. In Old Testament - more primitive animalistic lower law - time, there were 2 scapegoats. One was indeed killed, and 1 was banished to the wilderness (probably a slower death).

“Leviticus 16 spells out the instructions for the high priest (at the time of its institution by the Lord, Aaron was the high priest) regarding the day of atonement. According to the exact instructions from God, Aaron was to enter the Holy Place with a bull from the herd as a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. Once attired in his linen garments, he took from the congregation two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering. The bull was offered first to cover Aaron and his house’s sins.

Aaron then set the two goats before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting, and two lots were set over the goats, one for the Lord and the other for Azazel (the meaning of Azazel is uncertain. It may be a term for a place or possibly a demon. Traditionally it meant scapegoat). The goat upon which the lot fell for the Lord was used as a sin offering for the people.

Leviticus 16:10 is the meat of the passage about the scapegoat. “…but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel”

Aaron then completed the ministrations of his atonement work (a very bloody, messy process), after which he laid both his hands on the “head of the live goat and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins.” And he “put them on the head of the goat” and sent “it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness” (Leviticus 16:21). The man then let the “goat go free in the wilderness” (Leviticus 16:22). Once the scapegoat was sent to the wilderness, the sins of the people “escaped” through the atoning work done by use of him. The man who led the scapegoat to Azazel had to wash his clothes and bathe before he could come back into the camp (Leviticus 16:26).

Anyone not blinded by centuries of dogma can see how ungodly this would be today - to blame another for our sins & kill them - or PRETEND TO.

2) Jesus was human - or demigod - so pretending to sacrifice him is indeed HUMAN SACRIFICE. And it’s also shifting responsibilities to make an innocent one pay. Even pretending that’s possible is immoral & counter to what Christ is really about. This evil human sacrifice scapegoating is an anti-Christ - right under our noses - snaking into & perverting our souls!

3) People like Constantine, Eusebius, Saul & many others - saw the need to reform Christianity to blend or support Judaism - so they did. They also used lies like human sacrifice scapegoating to justify evil like crusades. They tried to justify evil, ie: If you kill in the name of Jesus - then you can just scapegoat all your murders onto him & abracadabra you’re saved! “Estimates of crusade deaths range from as low as 1,000,000 people all the way to 9,000,000.”

[Thinker]

So, if you are beginning to SEE how Christian ideologies have been corrupted to be evil in encouraging followers to shift responsibility to make the innocent pay (the epitome of evil), then you may be wondering, “Then what?”

What was Christ’s real message before Constantine & his posse corrupted it?

Carry your personal cross. Rather than pretend you even could shift responsibility to make another pay instead (a lie) - take response-ability. That is your purpose in life! We have a Statue of Liberty & as some have suggested, we need a Statue of Responsibility - not just for extreme leftists, but also for dogmatic Christians!

[Ymarsakar]

Donald s taking responsibility for brigham s actions.

See, divine karmic justice. And those who act as complaining, will also see their reward. This universe is in a sense fair. Not nice but fair.

Welcome to fulton, donald. I am here in georgia not far. Donald touched down on my domain. So ironic. Or at least a convinxing clone copy of him

[Ymarsakar]

Prophets acting as intercessors is throughout the OT. It is a very biblical principle. Leviticus 16, I believe, is a prophecy of the latter days.

A prophet having the sins of the people placed upon him saves his people from destruction and it affords the one making the sacrifice to learn to be more like Jesus.

viewtopic.php?t=72047

These selections are taken from 2nd and 3rd Nephi, mostly.

So far, they generally don't place the sins of the people on themselves. They warn the people and if the people ignore the warnings, bad stuff happens. That is later then called "prophecy" and the people who uttered it, prophets. Although prophets are not known by their hometowns or respected in their time. Samuel was not. Jeshua had issues as well. John definitely had issues. The apostles and disciples later, also had issues.

So it is more like satan using sins to drag people's souls down and closer to satan's own. By making people fulfill the negative portions of the warnings.

In which example has a messenger or disciple saved his people from destruction by placing their sins upon himself? Jeshua's example led to the destruction of the 2nd temple and the crucifixion of most rebels from Judea. Nor did the disciples do any better, for Rome conquered the world and put Christianity under "tax free" bondage, aka autocephalous authority.

It seems much more likely that human authors in the bible incorrectly interpreted the sequence of events to be God's Own salvation, interpolating Satan's Own psyops on top of God's plan of salvation. This mirrors what is going on in today's world, where people don't know which operation is by Satan's Own, which are CIA psy ops, and which are god's own operations. The bible authors weren't any better at figuring it out than we are.

Leviticus has been re-interpreted, interpolated, and altered by the Masoretic Jews. Scholars know for a fact that Deuteronomy 32 was altered by the Masoretes due to the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint; the masoretic text forms the basis for the translation of the Latin and King James translations.

One of the only texts to judge what ancient Hebrew beliefs were before the Babylonian Captivity and the Talmud is ironically, the Book of Mormon. A remnant was saved from Babylon. Thus when looking at Hebrews pre Talmudic corruptions, the Nephites and Lamanites serve as a very useful source. Their thinking is the more accurate and the more original, before the Masoretic scribes changed the Torah and then later the Talmud was a bunch of babylonian re interpretations.

I disagree- our perceptoin of God is hardly ever based off of scripture - it is based off of what others tell us. When you know God and have a clear conception of His character it is clear to see light from darkness. Why? You aren't looking for darkness in everything - you see the potential for light in all things. So when you do see darkness then you know it, and it is much more clear. What happens is people try to judge too much. "15To the pure, all things are pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Indeed, both their minds and their consciences are defiled." Titus 1:15

Matt 6: 22“The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is [g]good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eye is [h]bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! If you want to see darkness clear, then you have to focus on the light otherwise you will be filled with darkness and think all things are dark. Thus in order to know truth, to know light - one must seek and focus on the light- it disperses darkness.

It is when people have a twisted view of God that they have a hard time seeing- even if they are trying to discern- inevitably they end up focusing on darkness more than light unless they give it all up and just decide to live for Him.

Everyone is different. Their thoughts do not match mine or yours. So i cannot telepath all their thoughts when seeing them.

This is why the masoreric jewish corruption of torah is so serious. It means they burned the accurate originals and forged a fake torah. What else are they lying about.

[Ymarsakar]

In which example has a messenger or disciple saved his people from destruction by placing their sins upon himself?

Isaiah, Hezekiah, Moses, and JS all acted as intercessors and stopped judgment from coming upon their peoples. Generally, prophets do not, but acting as an intercessor is a rare blessing and an honor. Being an intercessory prophet is far better than being a prophet.

How did they take the sins of the people on themselves? Any psychic can save people with wise warnings. Not that difficult if people obey the advice.

For example 2020.

But i never heard jeshua tell me or others to take on the sins of other people. Now some people agreed to a soul contract but they tend to have martyr complexes and one of their lessons is compassion for self. They got way too much compassiom for others.

Mormon and moroni and the others. They survived and avoided the sins of others. Dust off your feet. When noah burned the faithful, this did not somehow create salvation. It ended up destroying the destroyers.

I know the theory of transference of guilt and sins unto jeshua. The jehovah witnesses specialize in this field. I do not see this being present in the bom or most other prophetic lives.

If a prophet dies or is killed, his saceifice does not save the killers. It condemns them to destruction.

Now there is a kind of karma sin absolution. Aka forgiveness and atonement. But none of it requires the cross or being tortured by the state. Was joshua tortured by the state or giants. Alma? Moroni cPtain? Gideon was killed. Did his death save people with his blood? I dont seem to remember it.

If a person surrenders their will to their god or jeshua, their sins can be absolved with a pardon. Sometimes this uses a ritual. Wine. Water. Etc.

But the roman idea of trans substantiation seems a very new thing.

[Thinker]

…1) See, divine karmic justice. And those who act as complaining, will also see their reward. This universe is in a sense fair. Not nice but fair…

2) This is why the masoreric jewish corruption of torah is so serious. It means they burned the accurate originals and forged a fake torah. What else are they lying about.

3)How did they take the sins of the people on themselves?

I appreciate that you see this. Thank you.

1) I’m always learning (implying I have a lot more to learn), but 1 idea that I have recently considered is that fairness (justice) is a foundational spiritual law. And it’s not to be mean but for our benefit. When we unjustly treat someone, it’s usually because we lacked empathy for how they suffered at our hands. Our main purpose in life and the spirit world is to learn - progress. We learn best by mistakes - growing pains tend to wake us up.

What goes up must come down. Spiritual laws of cause & effect also apply, but usually very delayed. Our bodies maintain homeostasis through wise, intelligent design ways. Similarly, our spirits & God seem to know when we can handle what & won’t try to teach us when we aren’t ready - like right after we hurt someone “not knowing what we did.” So it may be many years before there is a teaching moment to say, “Remember when you hurt someone like this? Now you know how it feels.” Then, we more deeply repent & get closer to God of truth & love. Taking away this precious, life purpose - as human sacrifice scapegoating does - not only thwarts our growth, but it adds to evil & suffering in the world by refusing to carry our own cross & pretending the lie that someone else can somehow be responsible for OUR actions.

2) If members - or Christians or most anyone - realized some stuff in the Torah, they would not fall for propaganda attempts to put Judaism up on a pedestal. Eg:

• In Judaism,
  “ 1.The Talmud is the most vital manuscript of conventional Judaism.
  2.The Talmud is the basic tool for learning the ethics behind the customs of Judaism.”
  
  The Talmud is considered the lens by which the Torah is interpreted.
  
  Quotes from the Jewish Talmud: (Note that ‘goy’ is anyone not Jewish)
  
  “If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b)
  * “If a Jew finds an object lost by a ‘goy’ it does not have to be returned.” (Baba Mezia 24a)
  * “If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
  * What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
  * “Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a ‘goy.’” (Baba Kamma 113a)
  * “All children of the ‘goyim’ (Gentiles) are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)
  
  “The ‘goyim’ are not humans. They are beasts.” (Baba Mezia 114b)
  * “If you eat with a ‘goy’ it is the same as eating with a dog.” (Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b)
  * “Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” (Soferim 15)
  
  Now you can check off your daily scripture reading.

3) Good question! It’s impossible to exercise for someone else physically and spiritually.

[Ymarsakar]

So if christ took our sins and his disciples must do as he does and more. Which disciple of christ in the texts did what christ did and who did they save?

A more succinct question.

I am rather good at mystery games. I love asking questions.

Investigating satan s own works is very difficult. Because it could be anything. Deception as a weapon.

[Shawn Henry]

This evil human sacrifice scapegoating is an anti-Christ - right under our noses - snaking into & perverting our souls!

Did you even read what I wrote?

Again, for the second time, no humans are sacrificed. They are killed by evil people. It is a symbolic sacrifice, but they are killed or martyred by wicked men. Joseph and Hyrum were killed by wicked men. They and Sidney took upon them the sins of the people and staved off judgement.

You present no interpretation of Leviticus 16 other to say that it's perverted. None of the OT animal sacrifices ever were about the animals. It was always about the people.

Please, by all means, let's hear your explanation of why God gave those instructions and better yet, what is the interpretation thereof?

[Teancum1]

I heard something earlier today that made me think. They were speaking of it in terms of "are you saved" or "are you baptized" Or did you ahve "hands laid upon your head."

Perhaps the better question we should ask ourselves is "Does God live in you?" Ephesians 2:22 22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit. 1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?


Do we understand the power and the majesty God is intending to give us. Do we see His heart for us? If we don't believe He is dwelling in us, then how can we function as Sons? How can we bear His name? How can we glorify Him?

Do we believe? In our prayers do we thank God that His Spirit dwells in us and is forming us into His image (see 2 Cor)? We talk a lot of waking up, but when will we wake up to what God has told us we are and stop living in the flesh, always focused on the flesh rather than on the promises of God? How can I consider myself dead to sin and alive to Christ if I am always trying hard not to sin? If Sin is my focus and avoiding it, how can I produce righteous fruit? Yes, if we confess our sins God is faithful and just in forgiving us and cleansing us from all unrighteousness, but He doesn't want us to remain in sin, He doesn't want us to always try to "not sin." He wants us to live out His rightoeusness. He wants us to embrace the righteousness HE gives us through His Son- so our focus is no longer on not sinning, but on glorifying Him to the world- so they might knwo Him through us and in us to sow and water, so God can bring the increase. So as Nephi once said "awake oh my soul, no longer droop in Sin, for I know in whom I have trusted" Trust in God, no longer droop in your sin, but consider it dead and rejoice in the life that God gives you, rejoice in His mercy and begin to live free - for where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Holy is hte Lord. Holy means "set apart" "consecrated" Do we udnerstand how different the Lord is from all other beings claiming to be a god? He is love He offering to come live in us through His Spirit, to grow us up into Him, to glorify Him and become love like Him- but if we see ourselves as separate from Him, then how can we do anything He asks? We will always cut off any authority He is willing to give us because of our unbelief- becuase we doubt He really is "that" merciful. We will doubt He really is that "good" that He really does love us and desires to make His abode in us and has prepared many mansions in HIs house for us - to dwell with HIm and we are invited. But if We can't believe in His mercy now, how will we believe it when we come before Him? If we can't believe it now, how can we believe it for others and help them see that the "blood of Jesus speaks better things" than abel's blood.

God is amazing and He loves us- will we let Him love us? Or will we let our pride prevent Him from loving us and say "Lord you aren't enough, I need to do xyz before I can receive." We are told not to add or take away from His gospel. His message is simple Have faith that Jesus came, He lived, and He died so that we could be restored back into relationship with the Father and you are made righteous by His blood, by beginning to believe that you ahve "re-turned" or repented/changed your mind. Another way to say it is "repent, the kingdom of God is at hand" or "chagne your mind about what you think about yourself and God and see who God is thorugh Jesus Christ and know that GOd wants to place His Kingdom within you and He wants to dwell in you with His Spirit - so you can be an abode to the Father and living epistle- a living temple ot the most High God. The next parts are "be baptized" or remember that you are dead to your sin - even if it tries to rear its ugly head, that isn't who you are- you are to be alive in Christ, having your concscience made clean through sprinkling of Jesus blood - the washing of water is a help and be as a little child - remain in that state of joy and humility realizing He wants to save you adn take care of you- He has given His earnest of that through HIs Spirit. So the question again "Do you believe that God dwells in you?" His Spirit is His mind. He has given you a new heart. So "repent" Or chagne your mind and return to the Lord believing that He does love you enough to place His SPirit in you- and don't let go of that believe that God is forming you into His image - for whoever has taht hope is pure even as He is pure (1 John 3).

Thank you for that! A thumbs up is not enough.

I have been thinking of how to be alive in Christ. If I am not alive in Him then I am spiritually dead. This is a slow process for me to leave the world behind. The world has so much to keep me preoccupied and distracted.
The scriptures, the words of Christ, should occupy my heart and mind. Immersing myself in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, improving my prayer life and showing genuine love for His children in my everyday walk have been my answer in how to let Him live in me.
I long for the strength to disconnect my heart and soul from Babylon of my own free will. He gives me the grace to do what I am able to do. But,like Nephi says in 2Ne 4:

O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.
18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.

I so want to kneel at His feet and worship Him but am I doing it right now?

Thanks again John for a beautiful and encouraging post among such a dreary world. God bless you for your positivity and faith.

[Ymarsakar]

This evil human sacrifice scapegoating is an anti-Christ - right under our noses - snaking into & perverting our souls!

Did you even read what I wrote?

Again, for the second time, no humans are sacrificed. They are killed by evil people. It is a symbolic sacrifice, but they are killed or martyred by wicked men. Joseph and Hyrum were killed by wicked men. They and Sidney took upon them the sins of the people and staved off judgement.

You present no interpretation of Leviticus 16 other to say that it's perverted. None of the OT animal sacrifices ever were about the animals. It was always about the people.

Please, by all means, let's hear your explanation of why God gave those instructions and better yet, what is the interpretation thereof?

Lincoln might have did that but judgment came. Civil war 1

The explanation is easy. Because the bible is corrupted, satan stole yhvh s identity aka baal is lord. So when you read the bible and other scriptures, you have to independently verify if the god there is the real yhvh or an imposter. This happens many times too.

Just like when nelson says they speak for god. When u read x claiming they speak for god....

Learn fhe lesson. Trust in god but verify

[John Tavner]

So if christ took our sins and his disciples must do as he does and more. Which disciple of christ in the texts did what christ did and who did they save?

A more succinct question.

I am rather good at mystery games. I love asking questions.

Investigating satan s own works is very difficult. Because it could be anything. Deception as a weapon.

You're asking hte wrong questions. Paul and Peter and James etc... answer the question through scripture - we are saved and save others through our life. He saved others through His death. Jesus tells us as His followers and disciples to declare the Kingdom is within and near and to heal.

Furthermore we suffer others sins all the time, and we forgive as His disciples. We willingly "bear the cross" we suffer persecution, death etc. and forgive those who do to us, glorifying God in the meantime. We lay down our life for our fellow men... and if it leads to death so be it, for the death will lead to life.

So to answer your question - all of htem did. They were all martyred, but none were the great high priest and none were perfect except through the blood of Jesus - so only Jesus was able to procure a place for all of us in which we have favor from God. Once favor is obtained- now that we bear His name- we proclaim His favor for others and intercede on their behalf. Each of them were martyred for following Him. For teaching truth, for sharing life.

[Teancum1]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8Fn7Bd2/

What she said

Wow- that was awesome!! I wish people in the LDS church would share that sentiment more freely with their friends.

[Ymarsakar]

So if christ took our sins and his disciples must do as he does and more. Which disciple of christ in the texts did what christ did and who did they save?

A more succinct question.

I am rather good at mystery games. I love asking questions.

Investigating satan s own works is very difficult. Because it could be anything. Deception as a weapon.

You're asking hte wrong questions. Paul and Peter and James etc... answer the question through scripture - we are saved and save others through our life. He saved others through His death. Jesus tells us as His followers and disciples to declare the Kingdom is within and near and to heal.

Furthermore we suffer others sins all the time, and we forgive as His disciples. We willingly "bear the cross" we suffer persecution, death etc. and forgive those who do to us, glorifying God in the meantime. We lay down our life for our fellow men... and if it leads to death so be it, for the death will lead to life.

So to answer your question - all of htem did. They were all martyred, but none were the great high priest and none were perfect except through the blood of Jesus - so only Jesus was able to procure a place for all of us in which we have favor from God. Once favor is obtained- now that we bear His name- we proclaim His favor for others and intercede on their behalf. Each of them were martyred for following Him. For teaching truth, for sharing life.

Who specifically was saved? Cause his appostles mostly died. If you mean saved spiritually ok. 2nd temple was melted for gold. Judea became palesrine and got crucified. Is rhis what we desire for salvation? In this world?

Why does a god need to become mortal and die for people to then be saved spiritually?

That is an act of self sacrifice. The only issue is that satans dont die naturally. So how come jeshua s disciples have to die on a cross while satan s disciples rule the world?

Does that sound like a fair game? There is deception here guaranteed. The rules should be even or fair. But satans r cheating as usual.

[TheDuke]

Define "god". As god is used on the FF typically, it isn't possible, i.e. god is a man (men) they are souls with bodies and spirits combined and celestial. HG doesn't use a body here at this time, only his spirit.

However, if you define "god" as a celestial being, any celestial being with power of the gods, then the answer is still "no".

If you mean "the spirit" or "the light of Christ" or the "power of the HG" or the "light of truth", then yes. That is that spiritual power becomes attached to your spirit. Your spirit is attached to your body. whether our spirit truly dwells physically within our flesh doesn't matter, but assume yes, then it would be "yes".

However, the words "live in you" is also confusing. Live means to have life. I don't see Jesus living in me, he is his own person. His influence, yes, but now we're really getting figurative and can say that in the same way our parents live in us or our HS teachers (good or bad). I find the phrase superficial actually, though possibly figuratively stimulating to discuss but only if we can agree on what "god" is and what "we" are, which we haven't been able to do on FF yet with any concensus.

[John Tavner]

So if christ took our sins and his disciples must do as he does and more. Which disciple of christ in the texts did what christ did and who did they save?

A more succinct question.

I am rather good at mystery games. I love asking questions.

Investigating satan s own works is very difficult. Because it could be anything. Deception as a weapon.

You're asking hte wrong questions. Paul and Peter and James etc... answer the question through scripture - we are saved and save others through our life. He saved others through His death. Jesus tells us as His followers and disciples to declare the Kingdom is within and near and to heal.

Furthermore we suffer others sins all the time, and we forgive as His disciples. We willingly "bear the cross" we suffer persecution, death etc. and forgive those who do to us, glorifying God in the meantime. We lay down our life for our fellow men... and if it leads to death so be it, for the death will lead to life.

So to answer your question - all of htem did. They were all martyred, but none were the great high priest and none were perfect except through the blood of Jesus - so only Jesus was able to procure a place for all of us in which we have favor from God. Once favor is obtained- now that we bear His name- we proclaim His favor for others and intercede on their behalf. Each of them were martyred for following Him. For teaching truth, for sharing life.

Who specifically was saved? Cause his appostles mostly died. If you mean saved spiritually ok. 2nd temple was melted for gold. Judea became palesrine and got crucified. Is rhis what we desire for salvation? In this world?

Why does a god need to become mortal and die for people to then be saved spiritually?

That is an act of self sacrifice. The only issue is that satans dont die naturally. So how come jeshua s disciples have to die on a cross while satan s disciples rule the world?

Does that sound like a fair game? There is deception here guaranteed. The rules should be even or fair. But satans r cheating as usual.

As Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world" The deception is in us thinking so self-focused that we think it is all about blessing and not about becoming blessing.

Furthermore, satan's only rule temporarily. We are ambassadors to the world- it is being in the world, but not of it.

Why does God do what He does? Because the effect of sin = death spiritual and physical - as the God said. "No one takes my life, but I lay it down." God stated that anything placed on a pole was accursed. God the Father placed all sin on Jesus - when sin was placed on the cross/pole- God was making a statement to the world that Sin was cursed- cursed means it has no life- it no longer has power. The blood shed represents life given to give life- notice that when new life is borught into the world - blood is shed. The same way with Christ, through His death all were made alive if they believe - they are born again. This new way of life allows one to overcome the power of sin because they see it has no power- the wages of sin no longer apply, we can reap what God sowed rather tha nwhat we sowed. We Die, the same way Christ did, but we are raised to new life, like Christ - with our past no longer hindering us from becoming fully formed in the image of God. His apostles and those who died also laid down their life- no one took it- Satan doesn't when when he kills good. He just thinks He does- because through Christ's death He llowed us to obtain righteosness through faith rather than works. When God raised Jesus from the dead, it demonstrated death no longer had power. What most Christians lack is faith in what the cross and Jesus did. The stories that most people hear are incorrectly taught- the message is true- we are set free through the Son and He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

It seems that you are too focused on what is fair - and not on righteousness. Righteousness is what you receive and do unto others- it is right-standing with God. A tree can not produce good fruit unless it is a good tree- by The Christ giving His life, he like all seeds, died- and when a seed dies it bears much fruit. We in the same way can die to our old life and be born again bearing much fruit some 30, some 60 and some 100. So the question is What do you care what appears to be fair or not as long as you are who you are. Do you care about fairness for your sake or for others? If you place your lot on "fairness" you ahve now given control to others- they control how you feel and how you react- you ahve led yourself into deception . As Jesus overcame the world - so ought we. We are told that "there is a way that seems right to a man and the ends thereof lead to death" If you perceive things through the eyes of man you will be deceived and it will lead to death. This is a fallen world - the scales were tipped in unfairness- because of Jesus the scales tipped back - now the dice aren't weighted against us, but they are even - for us to choose righteousness through faith or death through our own striving without God. When we apply faith, God's grace (favor) empowers us through Christ, through His mercy and love and transforms us back to the Image that God intended for us from the beginning- which is in His image- and we reamina as ambassadors demonstrating to the world that the Kingdom is come, until we lay down our life as Jesus did.

Salvation is being delivered from wrong thinking, wrong understanding, being delivered from the carnal man and the clutches of Satan (which means accuser) you no longer accuse yourself or others- rather you can see their potential and lift them up and see your own potential to be transformed- becuase it is truth. Salvation also manifests in healings, but hte purpose is to show how hte Kingdom is near and the mercy of God- No one should be a Christian to "have a good day" that is a selfish approach to Christianity. We are Christian to bear the name of Christ - to manifest the glory of God to the world- to show there is a better way than the one the carnal man embraces. As Joshua once said 24: 14Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; cast aside the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD (Jesus Christ, and God the Father)!”

Too often we serve other gods- mammon, self-interest, lust, sacrifice of others to obtain gain, self-hatred etc... My God is the great I Am, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob- Jesus Christ is Lord (Lord means governor, instructor, ruler). Only self-reflection can tell us who we are serving in the moment. Sometimes we serve the god of pride- of the need to be right over the need to be righteous and bear the Father's image. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truht and the Life- and no man can come to the Father except through the Son.

[Ymarsakar]

"Paul and Peter and James etc... answer the question through scripture - we are saved and save others through our life."

This is the very definition of circular logick. THe proof that Satan's Own did not contaminate the scriptures is that the scriptures attest to this? That's not how this works.

Investigations require objective proof and multiple witnesses corroborating the story. So the story is that a Savior came, this savior took on the sins of the world, and this is the behavior that disciples should emulate. Except this behavior is not emulated at all in the Book of Mormon or the lives of other prophets/disciples.

Even the ancient example of Mosiach, the nameless Moses, he wasn't crucified for the sins of the Hebrew/Israel tribes. He was told to wander the desert for 40 years and to endure to the end by working, but this work wasn't taking on the sins. When Moses healed the people of venomous snake bites, did MOses somehow take on the sins and suffer for it by becoming sick or pained? No.

The apostles did not save christianity, nor did they save Rome. Thus if the entire modern christianity is based on what the apostles did, then it is based on failure. Which is why Satan's own has been ruling the world for thousands of years. You would think that if this Salvation method was correct that humanity would have made some inroads in freeing themselves of satan hundreds or thousands of years ago.

But the evidence is right here and right now. That didn't happen. SO either the salvation you read about is fake, or the people telling you about the instructions are satan's own and faking it. So if the apostles were supposed to save people, they did not do so.

Moses saved people, but it wasn't taking on their sins. All people had to do was to look on a serpent in faith. Which is pretty ironic given the story of Genesis. Eternal life, apples and snakes!

This is one big mystery novel and people should be investigating, critically, the content of their bibles. That is perhaps why they are not being given more bible. Jordan Peterson, for all the sins of his followers looking to put him on a pedestal, does the critical work. Michael Heiser, now passed, did the critical work.

But the rest of the seekers of Christ, they haven't been doing so well over the thousands of years. Satan's Own has won, again and again. This is Salvation? This is not salvation, for if this is salvation, salvation itself is Satan's own doctrine.

"Salvation is being delivered from wrong thinking, wrong understanding, being delivered from the carnal man and the clutches of Satan (which means accuser) you no longer accuse yourself or others- rather you can see their potential and lift them up and see your own potential to be transformed- becuase it is truth."

I don't see evidence of this salvation in the past few thousand years. Civilization has seemed to progress, but post 2020, people realize what this progress was, a deception. Individuals have saved themselves, but they come from all manners and walks of life, many in the Indian sub continent who aren't even seekers of Christ.

This theory is in itself not even practiced today by the church corps nor most of their followers. How did salvation end up like this?

What did most christians do, who wanted to seek after christ? They obeyed lockdowns and masks and waxxines. Why? Because they love totalitarian authority? No, because they were taught that to do good and to be christ like, you must sacrifice yourself. So i the masks harm you, that is okay, it protects others. If lockdowns are not good for the economy, that is fine, because we are sacrificing for the good of the world. If waxxines are dangerous, that is ok, for we are saving grandma.

Do you see the end results of this wrong thinking? They were not saved. They are not saved. Their ancestors didn't save themselves nor their descendants. So either the doctrine of Salvation is false and god was lying, or Satan's Own was lying about the instruction manual while pretending to be God's Own words.

ANd Satan inverts things. It is opposed to salvation. Does it not benefit Satan for God's own to sacriice themselves? Satan doesn't want to contend with the living god on the world he controls as a god. Thus it has taught all of you to do something that leads to your destruction. If the instruction manual for salvation was correct, then people would be progressing towards rightful thinking and understanding ever since -4 BC. If this doctrine of salvation taught by man made churches was correct, then Gideon, Alma, and others in the Book of Mormon would have exemplified this in their life. They spoke of salvation, but a very different methodology.

Sweden didn't lock down at all. How Christian are they? Heh. Europeans, not that strong in that field. It is very important for humanity to understand that words and actions are not the same. Fauci said safe and effective but you must look at the actual results, the actions, not just the wording. This leads to graduation.

[John Tavner]

"Paul and Peter and James etc... answer the question through scripture - we are saved and save others through our life."

This is the very definition of circular logick. THe proof that Satan's Own did not contaminate the scriptures is that the scriptures attest to this? That's not how this works.

Investigations require objective proof and multiple witnesses corroborating the story. So the story is that a Savior came, this savior took on the sins of the world, and this is the behavior that disciples should emulate. Except this behavior is not emulated at all in the Book of Mormon or the lives of other prophets/disciples.

Even the ancient example of Mosiach, the nameless Moses, he wasn't crucified for the sins of the Hebrew/Israel tribes. He was told to wander the desert for 40 years and to endure to the end by working, but this work wasn't taking on the sins. When Moses healed the people of venomous snake bites, did MOses somehow take on the sins and suffer for it by becoming sick or pained? No.

The apostles did not save christianity, nor did they save Rome. Thus if the entire modern christianity is based on what the apostles did, then it is based on failure. Which is why Satan's own has been ruling the world for thousands of years. You would think that if this Salvation method was correct that humanity would have made some inroads in freeing themselves of satan hundreds or thousands of years ago.

But the evidence is right here and right now. That didn't happen. SO either the salvation you read about is fake, or the people telling you about the instructions are satan's own and faking it. So if the apostles were supposed to save people, they did not do so.

Moses saved people, but it wasn't taking on their sins. All people had to do was to look on a serpent in faith. Which is pretty ironic given the story of Genesis. Eternal life, apples and snakes!

This is one big mystery novel and people should be investigating, critically, the content of their bibles. That is perhaps why they are not being given more bible. Jordan Peterson, for all the sins of his followers looking to put him on a pedestal, does the critical work. Michael Heiser, now passed, did the critical work.

But the rest of the seekers of Christ, they haven't been doing so well over the thousands of years. Satan's Own has won, again and again. This is Salvation? This is not salvation, for if this is salvation, salvation itself is Satan's own doctrine.

"Salvation is being delivered from wrong thinking, wrong understanding, being delivered from the carnal man and the clutches of Satan (which means accuser) you no longer accuse yourself or others- rather you can see their potential and lift them up and see your own potential to be transformed- becuase it is truth."

I don't see evidence of this salvation in the past few thousand years. Civilization has seemed to progress, but post 2020, people realize what this progress was, a deception. Individuals have saved themselves, but they come from all manners and walks of life, many in the Indian sub continent who aren't even seekers of Christ.

This theory is in itself not even practiced today by the church corps nor most of their followers. How did salvation end up like this?

What did most christians do, who wanted to seek after christ? They obeyed lockdowns and masks and waxxines. Why? Because they love totalitarian authority? No, because they were taught that to do good and to be christ like, you must sacrifice yourself. So i the masks harm you, that is okay, it protects others. If lockdowns are not good for the economy, that is fine, because we are sacrificing for the good of the world. If waxxines are dangerous, that is ok, for we are saving grandma.

Do you see the end results of this wrong thinking? They were not saved. They are not saved. Their ancestors didn't save themselves nor their descendants. So either the doctrine of Salvation is false and god was lying, or Satan's Own was lying about the instruction manual while pretending to be God's Own words.

ANd Satan inverts things. It is opposed to salvation. Does it not benefit Satan for God's own to sacriice themselves? Satan doesn't want to contend with the living god on the world he controls as a god. Thus it has taught all of you to do something that leads to your destruction. If the instruction manual for salvation was correct, then people would be progressing towards rightful thinking and understanding ever since -4 BC. If this doctrine of salvation taught by man made churches was correct, then Gideon, Alma, and others in the Book of Mormon would have exemplified this in their life. They spoke of salvation, but a very different methodology.

Sweden didn't lock down at all. How Christian are they? Heh. Europeans, not that strong in that field. It is very important for humanity to understand that words and actions are not the same. Fauci said safe and effective but you must look at the actual results, the actions, not just the wording. This leads to graduation.

You can't say something is circular logic when it isn't. Furthermore not all truth is found in logic - that is one of hte biggest deceptions in the world. Love does not make logical sense - yet it is the greatest of all gifts. Don't judge the supernatural by the natural - it leads to deception. A life lived in Christ saves others- it shows them salvation. IT is why Jesus told the 12 before He ascended and after He gave the Spirit : 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.” How we forgive and withold forgiveness is a statement on our damnation of a person- it can affect them even if they have not faith because we are to forgive all men. Our life lived - can give life - and a true CHristian's life gives life- because they forgive and do not withhold forgiveness. All authority was Given to Jesus - He said "Go therefore" He was giving us authority to do all things in His name too and explained forgiveness to us. We bear His name- we just really struggle with belief.

What is your definition of salvation? Do you see the end from the beginning? Do you know all things? It sounds as if you are very flesh focused on salvation. If your flesh becomes your god, your spirit can not reign and it will lead to destruction- regardless of however "fleshly" salvation appears to you.

Christians get deceived all the time - this has nothing to do with our conversation - this is a straw man and a red herring (if you want ot use logic terms). I would also argue most Christians don't understand the atonement or Christ either- Mot haven't read the scriptures and what they do read they read with the pre-conceived notions of those who taught them - who were also taught by someone not knowing. it appears you and THinker keep making arguments that have nothing to do with what I"m saying- that you continue to argue based of what oral Christians believe and not biblical Christianity.

Physical salvation again, as stated beforehand is not hte salvation Jesus came to give- in fact htat is why they crucified Him because they wanted Him to be the physical salvation and take up the mantle of a physical king.

No it doesn't benefit Satan- and yes he inverts things, but He can't handle love/charity- true love. He loves getting people to just "do" things, but the Lord looks upon the heart. It is intent, it is purpose. True love, the love where you lay down your life for friends allows people room to change - they are not condemned, it allows them to see that there is more to who they are and they aren't trapped in whatever hell they ahve created for themselves.

Again, has little to do with the true doctrine of Christ - people are deceived all the time - Sweden is a non-sequitor.

[TheDuke]

THINK about it.
Why would God punish us for being as God created?

The dilemma is right there in your statement. god didn't create us. Well, he put Adam and Eve here to allow our spirits to live in bodies on this earth/creation to be tested. But he didn't create "us". We are co-eternal with all the god's. Our spirit that is our real self. Our bodies come and go but "we" or "us" is eternal.

It is a cop out to say, it is ok, because god made me this way! It is a lack of understanding of who god is and who we are. We are self created. God (the gods) are helping us improve, grow, or as Joseph said "enlarge" and become literal offspring of god. He forces no one to grow or change, he simply offers a path to enable and facilitate it.

The discussion of repentance and sin is about overcoming the weaknesses and imperfections that keep us from becoming like him/them. there is an entire society of gods, even them at different levels. Their work is to provide opportunities to bring to pass both the "immortality" and the "eternal life" of "man", where man are the lower human forms, not yet god-like.

Immortality is gaining a celestial body that lives for ever or is "immortal", eternal life is living with and then like the gods. Jesus' is the central individual making it possible for us to find and learn "truths" and the use the truths to overcome our "sins" or "weaknesses". There are two parts to this, after understanding our shortcomings. 1) overcoming the weakness or put another way obtaining godliness in that area and 2) making amends for the hurt we have caused others in the learning process. I don't pretend to fully understand (2) in the telestial sphere, but it is clear that even here in the testing/probationary state, we are eternally accountable for our "hurts" or "sins". Hence a Christ is necessary to provide us some mercy now to overcome being stuck in the demands of justice for either a long time or forever.

BUT you must see that god did not make gays gay or murderers killers or greedy people greedy. Neither did Satan/Lucifer. That is just how we all were in the beginning it is "natural" for us the natural man for the lower forms of life, just "natural". but Natural does not mean acceptable to obtain god's power and life. It is acceptable if you want to remain a lower form of being. He accepts that as he pushes no one up the chain.

[Ymarsakar]

As for paying forward salvation. I do like that as angel studios also used it. Paying it forward means someone has already helped you. If god helped u, who is gonna help god?

[Thinker]

"Paul and Peter and James etc... answer the question through scripture - we are saved and save others through our life."

This is the very definition of circular logick. THe proof that Satan's Own did not contaminate the scriptures is that the scriptures attest to this? That's not how this works.

Investigations require objective proof and multiple witnesses corroborating the story. So the story is that a Savior came, this savior took on the sins of the world, and this is the behavior that disciples should emulate. Except this behavior is not emulated at all in the Book of Mormon or the lives of other prophets/disciples.

Even the ancient example of Mosiach, the nameless Moses, he wasn't crucified for the sins of the Hebrew/Israel tribes. He was told to wander the desert for 40 years and to endure to the end by working, but this work wasn't taking on the sins. When Moses healed the people of venomous snake bites, did MOses somehow take on the sins and suffer for it by becoming sick or pained? No.

The apostles did not save christianity, nor did they save Rome. Thus if the entire modern christianity is based on what the apostles did, then it is based on failure. Which is why Satan's own has been ruling the world for thousands of years. You would think that if this Salvation method was correct that humanity would have made some inroads in freeing themselves of satan hundreds or thousands of years ago.

But the evidence is right here and right now. That didn't happen. SO either the salvation you read about is fake, or the people telling you about the instructions are satan's own and faking it.

... Satan's Own has won, again and again. This is Salvation? This is not salvation, for if this is salvation, salvation itself is Satan's own doctrine….

Do you see the end results of this wrong thinking? They were not saved. They are not saved. Their ancestors didn't save themselves nor their descendants. So either the doctrine of Salvation is false and god was lying, or Satan's Own was lying about the instruction manual while pretending to be God's Own words.

ANd Satan inverts things. It is opposed to salvation. Does it not benefit Satan for God's own to sacriice themselves? Satan doesn't want to contend with the living god on the world he controls as a god. Thus it has taught all of you to do something that leads to your destruction. If the instruction manual for salvation was correct, then people would be progressing towards rightful thinking and understanding ever since -4 BC. If this doctrine of salvation taught by man made churches was correct, then Gideon, Alma, and others in the Book of Mormon would have exemplified this in their life. They spoke of salvation, but a very different methodology...

Again, good points!
The difficulty is “A lie heard a million times is easier to accept than a truth heard for the first time.” Human sacrifice scapegoating is so “ho hum,” so every-day engrained into minds as is “pass the salt and pepper.” Few ever take the time to QUESTION the evil and illogical nature of this dogma.

And of course it’s circular logic to use a source to support the source. Again, few take the time to look into exactly how we got scriptures - what hellish hands they’ve been through before we receive them in their conveniently packaged form.

Satan’s/evil’s most powerful influence is when disguised as good. Then people not only engage in evil but do so with such self righteous pride, looking down on anyone who dares question it! Crusades all over again - except now it’s illegal to kill so they just do all they can to KILL the spirit, not realizing their own ego-based reactions are more telling than all the lecturing!

One aspect that I want to clarify - at least how I see it - is the nature of sacrifice. I do believe that sacrifice is a godly principle under the right conditions. Covid was based on lies so sacrifices were also based on lies. But life involving suffering as a default, as it does, ideally also involves sacrificing the temptation to numb myself on drugs (prescription or not), or other distractions so I don’t have to carry my cross - take responsibility for my part. I could say much more but hopefully you understand what I’m trying to convey.

[Ymarsakar]

Well i suppose we dont need to argue this point further. Satan s own fauci is trying to lock us down. I can only show the nature of my god via my actions.

Which is not self sacrificing. My god has commanded me to live and survive better than survivw propsper. Not to somehow suicide rush satans.

Thinker will show what her god is like. And john t will show us what salvation forward means.

[Luke]

Besides the human sacrifice scapegoating, good points..

It’s not “human sacrifice scapegoating”.

Do you think you can save yourself?

[Ymarsakar]

Besides the human sacrifice scapegoating, good points..

It’s not “human sacrifice scapegoating”.

Do you think you can save yourself?

First define save. For god to save us from mrna mark of beast, we need to act as well. Is this saving ourselves?

I do not have as negative a view of these rituals as thinker. Whej i first found out though yea

[Thinker]

THINK about it.
Why would God punish us for being as God created?

The dilemma is right there in your statement. god didn't create us. .. "we" or "us" is eternal.

… god did not make gays gay or murderers killers or greedy people greedy. Neither did Satan/Lucifer. That is just how we all were in the beginning it is "natural" for us the natural man for the lower forms of life, just "natural". but Natural does not mean acceptable to obtain god's power and life. It is acceptable if you want to remain a lower form of being. He accepts that as he pushes no one up the chain.

Hi Duke,
I agree that to twist the notion that God created us to justify dysfunctional or evil actions is wrong. There’s a difference between being created and us creating our own characters/habits etc.

When I say God created us - I mean as Aristotle suggested & was borrowed in the Bible - that God as the “Prime Mover,” got the ball rolling. I believe (though I may need to revisit this belief) that God also created us in conditions that allow for faith and free will- so we can choose - the most ideal conditions for growth. As Leibniz wrote, “This is the best of all possible worlds."

[Thinker]

…Thinker will show what her god is like. And john t will show us what salvation forward means.

By their fruits you shall know them.