Is this how the Lord treats elderly widows?

[karend77]

We have a couple families who moved out, but still attend our ward. They are more than welcome here and one of the brothers recently spoke in Sacrament meeting. Guess it depends on the phrase "leadership roulette", who you are lucky to get.

[Pazooka]

WWJD

Jesus wouldn’t have his mother, who is living on a fixed income, living off alone in an apartment.

Forget the red tape of the church…where is the family?

Her family is in the ward she has attended her entire life, and although she has moved over the boundary line into the ward that shares the building, she wants to attend the same ward as her daughter’s family, and her friends. She can do this, of course, but they are holding her temple recommend hostage. She probably enjoys living alone in an apartment since she has family and friends nearby.

Yeah, I followed the story line, thanks.

Dang it all to heck…this lady wants to see her friends and family once a week *at church (meant for the worship of God) because she’s living alone the rest of the week?

It sounds like the decision on the part of the church bureaucracy is only one small part of a much bigger problem.

[randyps]

If the people could vote with their feet it wouldnt be a church run by God, but by the people.

On this forum, a lot of people think it's more likely that God is talking directly to the rank and file than to the GAs. So they would say that a church run by the people is a church run by God, versus a church run by the leaders.

So probably better to leave God out of it and just observe that, for better or worse, and unlike a lot of other churches, the LDS church is an authoritarian organization with a chain of command and the members have no say.

Maybe the chain of command starts at the top with God at the throne?
You guys sound so ridiculous.
Im sure if you are diligent you can find a church where the members run the show, let us know how it goes.

[randyps]

There are people that will be blessed to have this woman in their ward, the new ward boundary that she has moved into. In return she will be blessed.
It is selfish of the old ward friends and her family to not let her be a vessel of God to help others in her new ward.

Cry babys every where, bunch of laman and lemualites...Where are the Nephis on this forum!

[ransomme]

I just found out that a sweet, elderly widow in our Ward will be losing her temple recommend because after her husband died a few years ago, she recently sold her home (limited income) and moved into a small apartment in the neighboring ward boundary (because it was what she could afford.)

Her daughter's family is in our Ward and she has lived her entire life in our Ward. This is her home. She simply wants to attend with her daughter's family and her good friends in her "home ward". We even all meet in the same building. Our Bishop is sympathetic, but apparently not so much the other Bishop and the SP.

So for this, the "true and living church led by the Lord himself", is going to mistreat a sweet and faithful elderly widow, and take her temple recommend. Because of a Pharissean handbook that has become the law that they worship.

Not one of them can look each other, or her, in the eyes and honestly say that this is how Jesus would treat a widow. One of the counselors in the other ward has resigned. At least he has a conscience.

Umm the handbook says people in that situation can attend wherever they want. I know because my mom had to move but was still in the same stake, so she was told that she could attend "her" ward

[Fred]

If the people could vote with their feet it wouldnt be a church run by God, but by the people.

On this forum, a lot of people think it's more likely that God is talking directly to the rank and file than to the GAs. So they would say that a church run by the people is a church run by God, versus a church run by the leaders.

So probably better to leave God out of it and just observe that, for better or worse, and unlike a lot of other churches, the LDS church is an authoritarian organization with a chain of command and the members have no say.

Maybe the chain of command starts at the top with God at the throne?
You guys sound so ridiculous.
Im sure if you are diligent you can find a church where the members run the show, let us know how it goes.

Nobody expects anyone besides Christ to be in charge. When they operate with a cold heart, it is obvious that Christ is not in charge. Of course, he could be if he really wanted to. But he allows them the freedom to follow satan and to destroy the members' faith. Every time Uchtdorf finances a new bunch of abortions, or they join another of satan's clubs like the UN, WEF, etc., or donate to Black Lives Matter so they can burn down Wendys, or finance NAACP in order to further the division among God's children with racism, or tell people that Big Pharma's new clot shot made from killed babies is a godsend, or tell people not to support Ammon Bundy, or refuse to help homeless women with children living in a car or on the street, or change the words in the Book of Mormon to appease the satanic because they believe they know better than God what the book should say, or require a mask even though there is no known benefit, or cheat on their taxes while telling people to support the government, or force KSL and the Deseret News to hide truth and lie at least once every 3 minutes about something, or tell people what color of clothes to wear on Sunday, or force missionaries to play death roulette, or not excommunicate Governor Cox, or continue to lie about being PSRs, or encourage illegal immigration, plus many more..., then we know it is no longer Christ's church until he takes it back. And he may not take it back. His church did not leave the earth. John is still around somewhere and the three Nephites.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Simple solution, don't worry about the judgement of men.

Solves nothing in this instance.

What do you mean? It solves everything.

[nightlight]

The Stake President holds the most blame in this situation because he can override the Bishop. He has the power to move the woman’s records to the ward she wants to attend. Problem solved. He is abusing his office.

The stake president doesn't have the authority to grant exceptions on his own. They require First Presidency approval. I have no idea how often such requests are granted.

I do agree that it's stupid that the church is so anal about its unit boundaries. But if people were able to vote with their feet that would be a huge power shift from the leadership to the members. So you can see why they don't allow it.

If the people could vote with their feet it wouldnt be a church run by God, but by the people.

“All things shall be done by common consent”

[Cruiserdude]

The stake president doesn't have the authority to grant exceptions on his own. They require First Presidency approval. I have no idea how often such requests are granted.

I do agree that it's stupid that the church is so anal about its unit boundaries. But if people were able to vote with their feet that would be a huge power shift from the leadership to the members. So you can see why they don't allow it.

If the people could vote with their feet it wouldnt be a church run by God, but by the people.

“All things shall be done by common consent”

Took the words out of my mouf

[CuriousThinker]

There are people that will be blessed to have this woman in their ward, the new ward boundary that she has moved into. In return she will be blessed.
It is selfish of the old ward friends and her family to not let her be a vessel of God to help others in her new ward.

Cry babys every where, bunch of laman and lemualites...Where are the Nephis on this forum!

Are you truly likening ward boundaries to the Lord commanding a family to leave Jerusalem? That's quite a stretch.

[JohnnyL]

You guys are missing the point. Will you do whatever it takes to follow Jesus?
Apparently this "Sweet old lady" will not.

Lehi was told to leave his home and possession to wander in the wilderness. Think about it!

It isn't about following Jesus, its about following a handbook rule. In my area the ward boundaries change every few years. I have been in and out of the ward with the same people several times.

So the elderly widow should go alone to church because of an arbitrary rule?

What happens if she gets unable to drive? Will her ministering sisters bring her? Maybe, maybe not, but her friends and family would.

Simple solution: "Bishop, I need a ride to church. Can your wife pick me up?"

Simple solution #2: "Attend" is once a month. Go to her ward twice (once more than necessary for "attend"), and go to her family's ward twice. Tell the bishop that since it's so important she attend his ward, she would like a calling. If there isn't one, but a goodly busybody and make the ward better.

Simple solution #3: Attend the new ward on Zoom (I know older people with temple recommends who haven't been to church in 3 years!), then attend with her family.

[JohnnyL]

People think the pharisees in the bible could never happen in our times or within our church.
It's always oh those terribly wicked people. I would have never done that if I lived during Christ's time.
I guess it makes life easier without real introspection.

I never understood ward boundaries anyway. It made sense broadly speaking but never once you dug deeper.
It always seemed like a micromanager's dirty little vice. It did nothing to solve class inequality. It was not truly geographic but based on specific people and where they lived. Seen more gerrymandering with this than political voting districts I swear.

Then after they assigned the boundaries, they would send everyone to go a building that was a distance away even if they lived right next door to one. I guess make it seem hard people will think they are making a sacrifice and stick with the church. It just always reeked of having control over people.

If you go to church, you go to church. Shouldn't matter where you go. No one does their calling anyways. Sunday school teacher, EQ, HP, RS, etc you all read out of a book never study the lesson and 90% of the time it is rehashing what you heard RMN say 6 months ago. There are only a few people that actually do all the work. So what gives?

Ha ha, sometimes, sometimes... (Actually had one teacher who only read every single sentence from the manual, even the answers.)

There is plenty of gerrymandering, because they have to consider unit leadership.

[Telavian]

You guys are missing the point. Will you do whatever it takes to follow Jesus?
Apparently this "Sweet old lady" will not.

Lehi was told to leave his home and possession to wander in the wilderness. Think about it!

I agree with this. However Lehi saw God and had literal visions.
Therefore, we he was asked to wander in the wilderness I think that is a bit different than if I did so just to emulate him.
However, I do think that the righteous will be asked to flee Babylon in a new exodus. I just don't think God wants us to do this individually just yet.

[JohnnyL]

Now think of all those older members living on social security giving 10 percent to have the money go into the stock market....

She shouldn't have to pay tithing on SS until what she put in is all used up.

[blitzinstripes]

There are people that will be blessed to have this woman in their ward, the new ward boundary that she has moved into. In return she will be blessed.
It is selfish of the old ward friends and her family to not let her be a vessel of God to help others in her new ward.

Cry babys every where, bunch of laman and lemualites...Where are the Nephis on this forum!

Apparently it's just you, dude. The only mighty Nephi, in a sea of Laban's. Congratulations. May the corporation reward you for your allegiance. Enjoy your Rameumptum moment.

[JohnnyL]

BTW, we were in this situation.

In our hearts, we knew the right answer, and followed it (go to the "correct" ward), and were blessed for it; and I don't doubt this will happen for others.

[captainfearnot]

Maybe the chain of command starts at the top with God at the throne?

Maybe. That's what the Mormons and the Catholics are betting on, anyway.

I'm sure if you are diligent you can find a church where the members run the show, let us know how it goes.

How it's going is that Salt Lake City and the Vatican have wealth that would make Solomon blush. Meanwhile my ward's meetinghouse is falling apart.

But many of the churches in my area that allow members to choose where and when to attend have incredible programs and facilities at the membership level.

[blitzinstripes]

WWJD

Jesus wouldn’t have his mother, who is living on a fixed income, living off alone in an apartment.

Forget the red tape of the church…where is the family?

Her family is in the ward she has attended her entire life, and although she has moved over the boundary line into the ward that shares the building, she wants to attend the same ward as her daughter’s family, and her friends. She can do this, of course, but they are holding her temple recommend hostage. She probably enjoys living alone in an apartment since she has family and friends nearby.

Yeah, I followed the story line, thanks.

Dang it all to heck…this lady wants to see her friends and family once a week *at church (meant for the worship of God) because she’s living alone the rest of the week?

It sounds like the decision on the part of the church bureaucracy is only one small part of a much bigger problem.

Wow you guys sure like jumping to conclusions. Of course she sees her family through the week. She also is in good health and desires to live independent and not impose any burdens on them. But likewise, she DOES desire to worship with her family on Sundays and attend with her lifelong friends. The only Ward she has ever attended in her life, up until now. And if she attends her former ward, it has to be agreed upon by both Bishops and the SP, apparently and one of the Bishops (the new ward) doesn't like it and the SP refuses to pull rank on him. She was told that all she can do is write a letter to the FP, deliver it to her stake president who will review the letter with both Bishops and together THEY will decide IF the letter should be sent to Salt Lake.

[blitzinstripes]

WWJD

Jesus wouldn’t have his mother, who is living on a fixed income, living off alone in an apartment.

Forget the red tape of the church…where is the family?

Her family is in the ward she has attended her entire life, and although she has moved over the boundary line into the ward that shares the building, she wants to attend the same ward as her daughter’s family, and her friends. She can do this, of course, but they are holding her temple recommend hostage. She probably enjoys living alone in an apartment since she has family and friends nearby.

Yes. This is the situation. I'm not sure why so many falsely assumed she was being neglected by her family. That is certainly not the case. They look after her very well and she is quite happy to live on her own. She's a strong, independent woman who simply wants to worship with her family and friends and not a ward of strangers.

[InfoWarrior82]

If the people could vote with their feet it wouldnt be a church run by God, but by the people.

On this forum, a lot of people think it's more likely that God is talking directly to the rank and file than to the GAs. So they would say that a church run by the people is a church run by God, versus a church run by the leaders.

So probably better to leave God out of it and just observe that, for better or worse, and unlike a lot of other churches, the LDS church is an authoritarian organization with a chain of command and the members have no say.

Maybe the chain of command starts at the top with God at the throne?
You guys sound so ridiculous.
Im sure if you are diligent you can find a church where the members run the show, let us know how it goes.

The members of the church actually are supposed to run the show. Ever heard of the law of common consent? Unfortunately, the leadership has made this law into a simple formality upon threat of apostasy.

[Pazooka]

Her family is in the ward she has attended her entire life, and although she has moved over the boundary line into the ward that shares the building, she wants to attend the same ward as her daughter’s family, and her friends. She can do this, of course, but they are holding her temple recommend hostage. She probably enjoys living alone in an apartment since she has family and friends nearby.

Yeah, I followed the story line, thanks.

Dang it all to heck…this lady wants to see her friends and family once a week *at church (meant for the worship of God) because she’s living alone the rest of the week?

It sounds like the decision on the part of the church bureaucracy is only one small part of a much bigger problem.

Wow you guys sure like jumping to conclusions. Of course she sees her family through the week. She also is in good health and desires to live independent and not impose any burdens on them. But likewise, she DOES desire to worship with her family on Sundays and attend with her lifelong friends. The only Ward she has ever attended in her life, up until now. And if she attends her former ward, it has to be agreed upon by both Bishops and the SP, apparently and one of the Bishops (the new ward) doesn't like it and the SP refuses to pull rank on him. She was told that all she can do is write a letter to the FP, deliver it to her stake president who will review the letter with both Bishops and together THEY will decide IF the letter should be sent to Salt Lake.

I understand what you’re saying but isn’t this is a construct of a dysfunctional society? The older generation living “independently” and not wanting to “burden” their children?

Doesn’t the Law of Israel teach regarding the duty of children toward parents, especially widows? Doesn’t Jesus? Western society views this woman’s living alone as a desirable thing, but is it really?

IMO everything else is moot. Step1: Live God’s law in relation to the family

Edit to clarify my initial post on this thread: If you really want to know how the LORD would have us treat elderly widows…it has already been written. Are we Romans or are we Israelites?

[spiritMan]

Now think of all those older members living on social security giving 10 percent to have the money go into the stock market....

She shouldn't have to pay tithing on SS until what she put in is all used up.

Until a Bishop gets on his high horse and denies a recommend over it.

[blitzinstripes]

Yeah, I followed the story line, thanks.

Dang it all to heck…this lady wants to see her friends and family once a week *at church (meant for the worship of God) because she’s living alone the rest of the week?

It sounds like the decision on the part of the church bureaucracy is only one small part of a much bigger problem.

Wow you guys sure like jumping to conclusions. Of course she sees her family through the week. She also is in good health and desires to live independent and not impose any burdens on them. But likewise, she DOES desire to worship with her family on Sundays and attend with her lifelong friends. The only Ward she has ever attended in her life, up until now. And if she attends her former ward, it has to be agreed upon by both Bishops and the SP, apparently and one of the Bishops (the new ward) doesn't like it and the SP refuses to pull rank on him. She was told that all she can do is write a letter to the FP, deliver it to her stake president who will review the letter with both Bishops and together THEY will decide IF the letter should be sent to Salt Lake.

I understand what you’re saying but isn’t this is a construct of a dysfunctional society? The older generation living “independently” and not wanting to “burden” their children?

Doesn’t the Law of Israel teach regarding the duty of children toward parents, especially widows? Doesn’t Jesus? Western society views this woman’s living alone as a desirable thing, but is it really?

IMO everything else is moot. Step1: Live God’s law in relation to the family

Edit to clarify my initial post on this thread: If you really want to know how the LORD would have us treat elderly widows…it has already been written. Are we Romans or are we Israelites?

She is quite happy to live independently. This post was not about some deeper meaning or Israelitish customs vs the modern family.

It is literally that an elderly widow is losing her temple recommend because she wishes to attend church with her family.

If you wish to discuss other things, please start another thread.

[silverado]

She should be allowed to worship with her family. She may be in good health now, but being elderly that might not last. I know an older woman who cant drive at night any more. She doesn't want to impose on ward members (that she doesn't know very well) by asking for a ride so she misses week night RS and evening sessions of stake conference, Christmas concerts and any other activity or meeting where she would have to drive home after dark. That makes it harder to get to know her ward members. She would feel comfortable asking family if they were near. This lady might feel the same.

[Wolfwoman]

My ward is still doing sacrament meeting by Zoom. If that’s available to her, she could attend via zoom once a quarter and tell her bishop she’s attending by Zoom.