Elder Holland - "The issue is chastity. The issue is not gender."

[spiritMan]

So, people who like to rape were born that way?
Same with pedofiles?

And free will?

Maybe they were born that way. However, everyone has agency.
The Book of Mormon is clear though that God doesn't hold us as accountable for the "wicked traditions of our fathers".
You are only as accountable as your knowledge.

Is the pedophile born that way?
Is the person who wants to have sex with animals born that way?
Is the person who has anger in their heart born that way?

And more importantly does it even really matter?

This is why I say you are spiritually illiterate. If you read the scriptures you know that every single person on this earth is "born that way". In other words we are ALL born into a fallen world and we ALL acquire ungodly sinful (I. E. Missing the mark) passions.

The whole POINT of being a Christian is to crucify, or put to death, our passions.

To take up our cross, our passions, bear them without complaint or advertising and to put them to death through Christ.

So in the end, it is absolutely irrelevant whether one is "born that way" or not.

It is ungodly and is a sinful passion and is to be crucified. Anyone who says it can't be crucified is an unbeliever in Christ.

[Good & Global]

What was the sin of Sodom? Today we claim it was homosexuality.
However, Ezekiel begs to differ.
"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me; therefore I took them away, as I saw good."
Ezekiel 16:49-50

The bible describes many things as being abominable such as making idols (Deut 27:15), sacrificing imperfect animals (Deut 17:1), and eating pigs (Deut 14:3-8). Therefore when you have your morning bacon then you are committing and abomination in God's eyes.

Who is greater in God's eyes?
1. Practicing homosexuals that waste and wear out their lives in the service of others
2. Heterosexuals who spend their lives doing meaningless things.

The sin of Sodom could very well be pride, idleness and the ease of a self-absorbed lifestyle.
This is why our society is getting pretty close to being Sodom and Gomorrah and we will inevitably surpass them. They did not help the poor and the needy. They also committed abominations. Therefore, the conclusion is they were swept.

But let us look at these contributing factors to their destruction, pride was mentioned twice in that scriptural passage. So were they swept based on a single act of homosexuality alone? No but the homosexuality was part of the abundance of abominations that they were committing. Some abominations no longer were abominations after Christ. Eating pigs and dietary guidelines as set forth by the Law of Moses had gone away. Some abominations remained abominations.

spiritMan has identified some scriptures talking about homosexuality of not lying with another man and bestiality of nor the beast of the field references. So there does appear to be great scriptural warning about such practices. One reason could be that these acts separate ourselves from God. We become led by the flesh instead of by the spirit.

So who is greater in God's eyes? This is an unfair question both to the asker and the receiver. We are all equal in God's eyes. Whatever answer is given to that prior question, one will always be at disparity by comparison. We can be overtaken by pride or overwhelmed by self doubt depending on our assessment. It only yields divine distortion. It is not faith building but faith distracting.

Is the homosexual who wears out their life in service bad? No. Are they all good? No. Is the heterosexual who does nothing all good? No. We each struggle with some of life's hard trials. We try the best we can to do good but we have flaws we must deal with in our walk with Christ. We may feel like whatever our trial is it is our personal hell at times. Why would God make me this way? And that is why I think we are all on our own personal spiritual journey. That path can vary but we all had lessons to learn when we came here. They might be different for you than they are for me. We may sin different but we need the same Savior.

[spiritMan]

What was the sin of Sodom? Today we claim it was homosexuality.
However, Ezekiel begs to differ.
"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me; therefore I took them away, as I saw good."
Ezekiel 16:49-50

I am not advocating for homosexuality. However, the bible describes many things as being abominable such as making idols (Deut 27:15), sacrificing imperfect animals (Deut 17:1), and eating pigs (Deut 14:3-8). Therefore when you have your morning bacon then you are committing and abomination in God's eyes.

Who is greater in God's eyes?
1. Practicing homosexuals that waste and wear out their lives in the service of others
2. Heterosexuals who spend their lives doing meaningless things.

And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me.

Hmm . . ..what "abomination" is it that they committed?

As for the "abomination" of eating bacon. The food laws were done away with. That is spelled out in Acts with Paul's vision. The other moral laws are still in place.

Again spiritually illiterate (not you Good & Global, but Telavian).

[Light Seeker]

The Law of Chastity, as defined in the Endowment, is that the sons of Adam and the daughters of Eve shall have no sexual relations except with those who are legitimately and legally wedded, according to the law of God.

UPDATE per Wolfwoman, direct quote down here for 2023:



The law of God makes no room for same-sex "marriages."

If a person openly declares himself as having same sex attraction, yet still follows the covenants by marrying the opposite sex, there is no issue as long as he doesn't fall into that temptation.

Are we taking about gods law or gods law according to smith young and Nelson?

It is simply God's law. Not God's law as interpreted by any man. But what God has caused to be revealed to His messengers over the ages, and those revelations we have in the Scriptures.

Changed because I responded to the wrong post .

[Light Seeker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntc38LbtvzU

"I think we have talked altogether too much about gender and altogether too little about chastity. The issue is chastity. The issue is not gender."

So is the Proclamation on the Family outdated?

He also says "to be very clear for all people for for all of his children now when that attraction exists what we ask for those inclined to a homosexual feeling is exactly what we ask for those with heterosexual feelings I'm talking to a young single adult group and that is be faithful be clean be chaste and for you every blessing of this church is available in terms of the sacraments the ordinances going to the temple."

So EVERY blessing is available, including celestial marriage?

If i'm reading this right, he is saying that as long as a gay couple is legally married, then sodomy is just fine. Remember, it's not about gender, it's just chastity. Sex after one gets a STATE marriage license is God approved , that apparently now goes for gays as well? State approved is God approved!

This assumption is incorrect.

The endowment spells it out even clearer with the 2019 and 2023 revisions.

When do we get it right ?

I mean it really should be as easy writing down exactly what is told to you ….

[Ymarsakar]

I don't have a position on the whole homosexual issue. As far as I know from my communications, to the godhead, this is just a human institutional problem. There are spiritual roots to it, as usual, but the outward manifestations and behaviors are human caused problems and so humans can either fix them or not.

It is just another Red vs Blue game satan provides as entertainment.

If people are holding a sports position because they think their god is backing one side... eh, no that's not what is going on.

Red=hot water
Blue=cold water

THe hot water tribe says hot water is useful, cold water isn't. The cold water tribe thinks the opposite. They both think god is on their side.

The issue was never gender or chastity. The issue is that humans are messed up genetically and in their head, that's the issue.

[Telavian]

And another characteristic of those who advocate for this crap like yourself is that they are passive aggressive.

You won't respond to me directly, you just make the "they" claim... Bc you are afraid to engage me directly bc you know I'm right.

I'll call you directly spiritually illiterate... bc you are, that's a fact.

You won't call me directly insecure bc the truth is all the things you passively call me are really about yourself.

My inner self is very calm and rational writing this and all that I have written.

I was actually being polite. From my very brief interactions with you so far you seem to be a very hate filled person who can't possibly comprehend that you may be wrong about something.

Replace homosexuality with any current topic like prophetic infallibility, polygamy, or Brigham Young succession and everything you mentioned would be exactly what a TBM would have said on the subject. Anyone with a different opinion or even open to a different opinion is vilified and made to look grossly inferior.

I really don't care either way about homosexuality. However, I do know that we all have major problems that need to be corrected before Christ returns. Two consenting adults that are doing something that they strongly feel is correct is less important to worry about than many other things.

[spiritMan]

And another characteristic of those who advocate for this crap like yourself is that they are passive aggressive.

You won't respond to me directly, you just make the "they" claim... Bc you are afraid to engage me directly bc you know I'm right.

I'll call you directly spiritually illiterate... bc you are, that's a fact.

You won't call me directly insecure bc the truth is all the things you passively call me are really about yourself.

My inner self is very calm and rational writing this and all that I have written.

I was actually being polite. From my very brief interactions with you so far you seem to be a very hate filled person who can't possibly comprehend that you may be wrong about something.

Replace homosexuality with any current topic like prophetic infallibility, polygamy, or Brigham Young succession and everything you mentioned would be exactly what a TBM would have said on the subject. Anyone with a different opinion or even open to a different opinion is vilified and made to look grossly inferior.

I really don't care either way about homosexuality. However, I do know that we all have major problems that need to be corrected before Christ returns. Two consenting adults that are doing something that they strongly feel is correct is less important to worry about than many other things.

ROFLOL...

I call a spade a spade.

If you didn't care so much about homosexuality then why are you advocating for it?

I am the furthest from a TBM. The Church is a corrupt, immoral, decadent organization. It abuses it's members, all the way from the bottom to the top.

You say you " don't care about it" yet immediately afterwards you advocate for it. It is the double speak of those who are spiritually illiterate.

Let's pick another moral topic. As long as a mother and a son consent to having sex what's the big deal!!!

Based on the same principle then of "two consenting adults" incest is no big deal right?

Or are you just a moral coward who won't stand behind the principles you advocate?

[spiritMan]

And another characteristic of those who advocate for this crap like yourself is that they are passive aggressive.

You won't respond to me directly, you just make the "they" claim... Bc you are afraid to engage me directly bc you know I'm right.

I'll call you directly spiritually illiterate... bc you are, that's a fact.

You won't call me directly insecure bc the truth is all the things you passively call me are really about yourself.

My inner self is very calm and rational writing this and all that I have written.

I was actually being polite. From my very brief interactions with you so far you seem to be a very hate filled person who can't possibly comprehend that you may be wrong about something.

Replace homosexuality with any current topic like prophetic infallibility, polygamy, or Brigham Young succession and everything you mentioned would be exactly what a TBM would have said on the subject. Anyone with a different opinion or even open to a different opinion is vilified and made to look grossly inferior.

I really don't care either way about homosexuality. However, I do know that we all have major problems that need to be corrected before Christ returns. Two consenting adults that are doing something that they strongly feel is correct is less important to worry about than many other things.

So what "major problems" do we have that you deem are so incredible important that having one man stick his xxxx up another man's yyyy is of no consequence to you?

[Telavian]

So what "major problems" do we have that you deem are so incredible important that having one man stick his xxxx up another man's yyyy is of no consequence to you?

It is comical. The world is falling apart and almost every level of society is collapsing and you are worrying about what people do in their bedrooms.
"First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

[spiritMan]

So what "major problems" do we have that you deem are so incredible important that having one man stick his xxxx up another man's yyyy is of no consequence to you?

It is comical. The world is falling apart and almost every level of society is collapsing and you are worrying about what people do in their bedrooms.
"First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

Again what things are so important that you advocate for this sickness?

[spiritMan]

So what "major problems" do we have that you deem are so incredible important that having one man stick his xxxx up another man's yyyy is of no consequence to you?

It is comical. The world is falling apart and almost every level of society is collapsing and you are worrying about what people do in their bedrooms.
"First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

The " world falling apart" = you don't believe according to my twisted morals. If just everyone would let the queers alone then the world wouldn't be falling apart. Right?

[spiritMan]

So what "major problems" do we have that you deem are so incredible important that having one man stick his xxxx up another man's yyyy is of no consequence to you?

It is comical. The world is falling apart and almost every level of society is collapsing and you are worrying about what people do in their bedrooms.
"First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

Ah, yes the typical retort of the queer allies.

So bc one sins a person has no ability to comment on morality?

According to your deviant morality no one could or SHOULD even say that adultery is wrong... bc why don't you carry the beam or of your own eye first!

[Libertas Est Salus]

So what "major problems" do we have that you deem are so incredible important that having one man stick his xxxx up another man's yyyy is of no consequence to you?

It is comical. The world is falling apart and almost every level of society is collapsing and you are worrying about what people do in their bedrooms.
"First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

I truly respect your insights in general, so please don't misinterpret my response. Your comment caught me a little off-guard. I am of the opinion that what people are doing in their bedrooms is, in fact, driving the collapse of society. I believe SS relations are categorized by God as abominations such that invariably rot civilizations and invite upon them divine judgment. On that note, it seems clear to me that the obsession with the rainbow flag has been more than merely coincident with our current precipitous decline.

But I am willing to accept that I'm wrong, if I am. (I say that, though accepting the idea that SS acts are a non-issue would definitely seem a bridge too far for me.)

[spiritMan]

So what "major problems" do we have that you deem are so incredible important that having one man stick his xxxx up another man's yyyy is of no consequence to you?

It is comical. The world is falling apart and almost every level of society is collapsing and you are worrying about what people do in their bedrooms.
"First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

I truly respect your insights in general, so please don't misinterpret my response. Your comment caught me a little off-guard. I am of the opinion that what people are doing in their bedrooms is, in fact, driving the collapse of society. I believe SS relations are categorized by God as abominations such that invariably rot civilizations and invite upon them divine judgment. On that note, it seems clear to me that the obsession with the rainbow flag has been more than merely coincident with our current precipitous decline.

But I am willing to accept that I'm wrong, if I am. (I say that, though accepting the idea that SS acts are a non-issue would definitely seem a bridge too far for me.)

You aren't wrong. Your gut is correct, it's that given the tremendous amount of queer propaganda these days decent moral individuals are kowtowed into being afraid and making equivocating statements rather than stating simply and strongly what was only for thousands of years.

[JSmith]

This assumption is incorrect.

The endowment spells it out even clearer with the 2019 and 2023 revisions.

wait...what? Apparently I've been living under a rock...

are you saying that married gay couples are fully accepted in the church and can go to the temple? Please clarify, thanks.

God's Law is a marriage between a man and a woman.

It is not between a man and a man.
Nor is it between a woman and a woman.

It's a man and a woman.

The 2019 and 2023 revisions clarify that, by stating that the ultimate law to follow, is God's law.

There is no law of marriage. this is something the church has created. Throughout the old and new testaments, there is no consistent standard.

We also have precedent that God's law of marriage was perfectly OK with marrying other men's wives behind your existing wife’s back and organizing secret marriages and sham events to hide the fact.

Does “God's law of marriage” also include calculated deception and lies?

Yep.

Joseph Smith held a fake wedding between Joseph Kingsbury and Sarah Ann Whitney to keep the public off his track, and in exchange for Kingsbury’s complicity, Joseph Smith promises that he will gain exaltation with his deceased wife.

The fake marriage was indeed held, and Kingsbury lived in the Whitney home to provide cover to the public that they were husband and wife, but in reality, Sarah Ann was Joseph’s in every sense of the word. Even upon Joseph Smith’s death, Sarah Ann Whitney was married to Heber Kimball, not Joseph Kingsbury.

To recap the deception used in this marriage: Joseph Smith sent Sarah Ann’s brother on a mission because he know that Horace might disapprove of the marriage, sent a letter to the Whitneys to visit when Emma was gone, held a fake marriage for Sarah Ann to deceive both his wife and the church, and promised Joseph Kingsbury exaltation with his deceased wife for being complicit in the lie.

this is from Kingsbury’s journal (https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/c ... es/id/2516):

“on the 29th of April 1843 I according to President Joseph Smith counsel & others agreed to stand by Sarah Ann Whitney as supposed to be her husband & had a pretended marriage for the purpose of bringing about the purposes of God in these last days as spoken by the mouth of the prophets Isiah Jeremiah Ezekiel and also Joseph Smith, & Sarah Ann Should Rec’d a Great Glory Honor & Eternal Lives and I also should Rec’d a Great Glory Honor & Eternal lives to the full desire of my heart in having my Companion Caroline in the first resurrection to claim her & no one to have power to take her from me & we both shall be crowned & enthroned together in the Celestial Kingdom of God enjoying each others society in all of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ & our little ones with us as is recorded in this blessing that President Joseph Smith Sealed upon my head on the twenty-third day of March 1843..”

So we have plenty of precedent that shows that God's law of marriage not only includes polygamy and polyandry but also includes active deception to hide relationships under God's approval.
Why do I point this out? Because Honestly, God does not have a law of marriage.

Even the understanding of marriage in the LDS Church is not consistent over the last century. Up until the 1920s, church leaders blamed Monogamy as one of the chief causes of prostitution and claimed that monogamy was one of the cultural problems that was destroying the family.

But by the turn of the century, as political pressure bared down on the church, they changed their tune. So when church leaders once proclaimed monogamy, the law of the church now, to be one of the problems throughout history… now God has completely changed his mind?

And I know the standard church apologetic is to deflect and say that “God can condone non-monogamy sometimes, but then other times he says no” . I get that.

But that also means that God's law of marriage is not monolithic. And that if it is sometimes acceptable to break the standard, then the standard really doesn't exist.

Here are some prime examples of church leaders talking about the evils of monogamy:

'It is a fact worthy of note that the shortest lived nations of which we have record have been monogamic. Rome.. . . was a monogamic nation and the numerous evils attending that system early laid the foundation for that ruin which eventually overtook her.' (Apostle George Q. Cannon, 'Journal of Discourses,' Vol. 13, p. 202)

'Since the founding of the Roman empire monogamy has prevailed more extensively than in times previous to that. The founders of that ancient empire were robbers and women stealers, and made laws favoring monogamy in consequence of the scarcity of women among them, and hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout Christendom, and which had been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious.' (The Prophet Brigham Young,'Journal of Discourses,' Vol. 11, p. 128)

' . . . [T]he one-wife system not only degenerates the human family, both physically and intellectually, but it is entirely incompatible with philosophical notions of immortality; it is a lure to temptation, and has always proved a curse to a people.' (Prophet John Taylor, 'Millennial Star,' Vol. 15, p. 227)

'Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire. . . . Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers.... Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it. 'And is that religion popular in heaven?' it is the only popular religion there, . . . ' (The Prophet Brigham Young, 'The Deseret News,' August 6, 1862)

'This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans, . . . ' (Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, page 195)

'We breathe the free air, we have the best looking men and handsomest women, and if they (Non-Mormons) envy us our position, well they may, for they are a poor, narrow-minded, pinch-backed race of men, who chain themselves down to the law of monogamy, and live all their days under the dominion of one wife. They ought to be ashamed of such conduct, and the still fouler channel which flows from their practices; and it is not to be wondered at that they should envy those who so much better understand the social relations.' (Apostle George A Smith, 'Journal of Discourses,' Vol. 3, p. 291)

'Just ask yourselves, historians, when was monogamy introduced on to the face of the earth? When those buccaneers, who settled on the peninsula where Rome now stands, could not steal women enough to have two or three apiece, they passed a law that a man should have but one woman. And this started monogamy and the downfall of the plurality system. In the days of Jesus, Rome, having dominion over Jerusalem, they carried out the doctrine more or less. This was the rise, start and foundation of the doctrine of monogamy; and never till then was there a law passed, that we have any knowledge of, that a man should have but one wife.' (The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol. 12, p. 262)

But wait there’s more! God doesn’t condone monogamy anymore? Well, what form of marriage is acceptable to God? Tell us, we must know which family system is most pleasing to God. What exactly was so bad about Monogamy? As always we have Prophets to tell us the mind and will of God on the matter. Thank heavens! It sure is good to have them around.

'I have noticed that a man who has but one wife, and is inclined to that doctrine, soon begins to wither and dry up, while a man who goes into plurality looks fresh, young, and sprightly. Why is this? Because God loves that man, and because he honors his word. Some of you may not believe this, but I not only believe it but I also know it. For a man of God to be confined to one woman is small business. . . . I do not know what we should do if we had only one wife apiece.' (Apostle Heber C. Kimball, 'Deseret News,' April 22, 1857)

'[Children of polygamists] besides being equally as bright and brighter intellectually, are much more healthy and strong.' (Apostle George Q. Cannon, 'Journal of Discourses,' v. 13, p. 207)

'Talk about polygamy! There is no true philosopher on the face of the earth but what will admit that such a system, properly carried out according to the order of heaven, is far superior to monogamy for the raising of healthy, robust children!' (Prophet Brigham Young, 'Journal of Discourses,' v. 13, p. 317)

'Patriarchal marriage involves conditions, responsibilities and obligations which do not exist in monogamy, and there are blessings attached to the faithful observance of that law, if viewed only upon natural principles, which must so far exceed those of monogamy, as the conditions responsibilities and power of increase are greater. This is my view and testimony in relation to this matter. I believe it is a doctrine that should be taught and understood.' (Prophet Joseph F. Smith, 'Journal of Discourses,' Vol.20, p.30, July 7, 1878)

'The benefits derived from the righteous observance of this order of marriage [polygamy] do not accrue solely to the husband, but are shared equally by the wives; not only is this true upon the grounds of obedience to a divine law, but upon physiological and scientific principles. In the latter view, the wives are even more benefited, if possible, than the husband physically. But, indeed, the benefits naturally accruing to both sexes, and particularly to their offspring, in time, say nothing of eternity, are immensely greater in the righteous practice of patriarchal marriage than in monogamy, even admitting the eternity of the monogamic marriage covenant.' (Prophet Joseph F. Smith, 'Journal of Discourses,' Vol.20, p.31, July 7, 1878)

so again, trying to pin down a consistent teaching and standard in the church is like trying to pin a fried egg on a wall.

This is also why the Church does not want us to look to the past to find answers to modern problems. It causes too many problems for them when the prophets openly contradict each other and God seems to be a never-ending pattern of changing his mind and changing the standards.

“Following the prophet” is fine. But don't expect that the prophet is going to lead you to any pattern of intellectual or doctrinal consistency.

[Ymarsakar]

So what "major problems" do we have that you deem are so incredible important that having one man stick his xxxx up another man's yyyy is of no consequence to you?

It is comical. The world is falling apart and almost every level of society is collapsing and you are worrying about what people do in their bedrooms.
"First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

I truly respect your insights in general, so please don't misinterpret my response. Your comment caught me a little off-guard. I am of the opinion that what people are doing in their bedrooms is, in fact, driving the collapse of society. I believe SS relations are categorized by God as abominations such that invariably rot civilizations and invite upon them divine judgment. On that note, it seems clear to me that the obsession with the rainbow flag has been more than merely coincident with our current precipitous decline.

But I am willing to accept that I'm wrong, if I am. (I say that, though accepting the idea that SS acts are a non-issue would definitely seem a bridge too far for me.)

In principle you perceive it but in the details you mistake cause for effect.

Godhead does not deem it a non issue. But it is not why civilizations get chastized either

[FrankOne]

... I am not sure how I feel about homosexuality. I think clearly there is a biological component, however I think all sexual deviations have a biological component. That in no way should justify the behavior though.

So, people who like to rape were born that way?
Same with pedofiles?

And free will?

free will today, but influenced heavily by your DNA/gene coding which you were born into due to the culmination of your previous incarnations.

we all have to admit that humans are no different than horses when it comes to breeding. MOST TRAITS ARE INHERITED. <there I yelled it, so it's true.

so, whether it's just God playiing a cruel joke on people as they land in bad gene pools and never get out or it's a JUST system based on past lives.

People refuse to be observant. Go to a place like borneo. Observe the indigenous folk. What deck are they playing with? Is it the same deck of cards that you got when YOU were born? Go to the bush in Africa. Observe their life, not the life they show on tv, the REAL life. Did they get the same hand as you ? Where is their salvation after this supposed one time shot as a human?

We were not born equal in the flesh, not even remotely close. Horses with traits of breeding inherited and lived out. Go to a retarded ward in a psych hospital. Observe. Where is their hope in a one shot life? The babble about being judged by what they experienced or dying in ignorance and then being saved anyway is a bunch of hooey. hahahahaha.

this place is NOT what 99.99% of people think it is.
Strong Reasoning is the enemy to most. It's just too damn scary!

[Telavian]

I truly respect your insights in general, so please don't misinterpret my response. Your comment caught me a little off-guard. I am of the opinion that what people are doing in their bedrooms is, in fact, driving the collapse of society. I believe SS relations are categorized by God as abominations such that invariably rot civilizations and invite upon them divine judgment. On that note, it seems clear to me that the obsession with the rainbow flag has been more than merely coincident with our current precipitous decline.

But I am willing to accept that I'm wrong, if I am. (I say that, though accepting the idea that SS acts are a non-issue would definitely seem a bridge too far for me.)

I certainly admit that it could be a problem. I am just saying that I am open to it not being a problem also.
However, it seems these same people that are so violently opposed to homosexuality are often the ones that mistreat their wives, are misogynists, and claim some kind of religious superiority because they have eternal truth that no one else does.

I am against polygamy, however I am also open to it being part of the kingdom of God.
I am against the LDS church, however I am also open to it being part of God's endtime plan.
I am against God having a physical body, however I am open to being wrong about that also.
I am against the LDS concept of the Godhead, however I am open to multiple entities in the Godhead.

We are all totally messed up as a people. I frankly don't care for the rainbow flag and certainly agree there is an agenda of societal degradation.

I just mean that if I was born with a very strong desire to eat cake, and then I eat cake, at what level of "wrongness" is it? You are eating pie because you were born with a desire to do so. Are you better than a cake eater? We are all judged according to our knowledge and everyone's knowledge is at different levels.

From my current knowledge I believe homosexuality is wrong. However, if I saw 2 homosexual people enter heaven then I wouldn't think I had accidently went to hell instead.

[Wolfwoman]

I truly respect your insights in general, so please don't misinterpret my response. Your comment caught me a little off-guard. I am of the opinion that what people are doing in their bedrooms is, in fact, driving the collapse of society. I believe SS relations are categorized by God as abominations such that invariably rot civilizations and invite upon them divine judgment. On that note, it seems clear to me that the obsession with the rainbow flag has been more than merely coincident with our current precipitous decline.

But I am willing to accept that I'm wrong, if I am. (I say that, though accepting the idea that SS acts are a non-issue would definitely seem a bridge too far for me.)

I certainly admit that it could be a problem. I am just saying that I am open to it not being a problem also.
However, it seems these same people that are so violently opposed to homosexuality are often the ones that mistreat their wives, are misogynists, and claim some kind of religious superiority because they have eternal truth that no one else does.

I am against polygamy, however I am also open to it being part of the kingdom of God.
I am against the LDS church, however I am also open to it being part of God's endtime plan.
I am against God having a physical body, however I am open to being wrong about that also.

We are all totally messed up as a people. I frankly don't care for the rainbow flag and certainly agree there is an agenda of societal degradation.

I just mean that if I was born with a very strong desire to eat cake, and then I eat cake, at what level of "wrongness" is it? You are eating pie because you were born with a desire to do so. Are you better than a cake eater? We are all judged according to our knowledge and everyone's knowledge is at different levels.

If someone is born with an attraction to the same sex, but then they are taught that it is an abomination to do sexual acts with the same sex, then they are now at a different level of knowledge, right? So they’re not ignorant to the law anymore. But now we can’t say it’s an abomination anymore. So we’re like animals, basically. We just go after our base desires.

[Ymarsakar]

I truly respect your insights in general, so please don't misinterpret my response. Your comment caught me a little off-guard. I am of the opinion that what people are doing in their bedrooms is, in fact, driving the collapse of society. I believe SS relations are categorized by God as abominations such that invariably rot civilizations and invite upon them divine judgment. On that note, it seems clear to me that the obsession with the rainbow flag has been more than merely coincident with our current precipitous decline.

But I am willing to accept that I'm wrong, if I am. (I say that, though accepting the idea that SS acts are a non-issue would definitely seem a bridge too far for me.)

I certainly admit that it could be a problem. I am just saying that I am open to it not being a problem also.
However, it seems these same people that are so violently opposed to homosexuality are often the ones that mistreat their wives, are misogynists, and claim some kind of religious superiority because they have eternal truth that no one else does.

I am against polygamy, however I am also open to it being part of the kingdom of God.
I am against the LDS church, however I am also open to it being part of God's endtime plan.
I am against God having a physical body, however I am open to being wrong about that also.
I am against the LDS concept of the Godhead, however I am open to multiple entities in the Godhead.

We are all totally messed up as a people. I frankly don't care for the rainbow flag and certainly agree there is an agenda of societal degradation.

I just mean that if I was born with a very strong desire to eat cake, and then I eat cake, at what level of "wrongness" is it? You are eating pie because you were born with a desire to do so. Are you better than a cake eater? We are all judged according to our knowledge and everyone's knowledge is at different levels.

From my current knowledge I believe homosexuality is wrong. However, if I saw 2 homosexual people enter heaven then I wouldn't think I had accidently went to hell instead.

Here is the solution since people arguing about what rhe problem is. The advanced students are lightyears ahead.

viewtopic.php?t=71741

[FrankOne]

I truly respect your insights in general, so please don't misinterpret my response. Your comment caught me a little off-guard. I am of the opinion that what people are doing in their bedrooms is, in fact, driving the collapse of society. I believe SS relations are categorized by God as abominations such that invariably rot civilizations and invite upon them divine judgment. On that note, it seems clear to me that the obsession with the rainbow flag has been more than merely coincident with our current precipitous decline.

But I am willing to accept that I'm wrong, if I am. (I say that, though accepting the idea that SS acts are a non-issue would definitely seem a bridge too far for me.)

I certainly admit that it could be a problem. I am just saying that I am open to it not being a problem also.
However, it seems these same people that are so violently opposed to homosexuality are often the ones that mistreat their wives, are misogynists, and claim some kind of religious superiority because they have eternal truth that no one else does.

I am against polygamy, however I am also open to it being part of the kingdom of God.
I am against the LDS church, however I am also open to it being part of God's endtime plan.
I am against God having a physical body, however I am open to being wrong about that also.

We are all totally messed up as a people. I frankly don't care for the rainbow flag and certainly agree there is an agenda of societal degradation.

I just mean that if I was born with a very strong desire to eat cake, and then I eat cake, at what level of "wrongness" is it? You are eating pie because you were born with a desire to do so. Are you better than a cake eater? We are all judged according to our knowledge and everyone's knowledge is at different levels.

If someone is born with an attraction to the same sex, but then they are taught that it is an abomination to do sexual acts with the same sex, then they are now at a different level of knowledge, right? So they’re not ignorant to the law anymore. But now we can’t say it’s an abomination anymore. So we’re like animals, basically. We just go after our base desires.

yah, following your body's cravings is now "the way". Represented by the rainbow flag. Self Discipline is the now the enemy of the whirled.

[Niyr]

So what "major problems" do we have that you deem are so incredible important that having one man stick his xxxx up another man's yyyy is of no consequence to you?

It is comical. The world is falling apart and almost every level of society is collapsing and you are worrying about what people do in their bedrooms.

Absolutely. Part of what goes on in some bedrooms is contributing to the world and society falling apart. I can agree that legally, adults should be able to do whatever with another who consents, but that does not mean we should be uncaring and passive about the perversion in general.

[spiritMan]

I truly respect your insights in general, so please don't misinterpret my response. Your comment caught me a little off-guard. I am of the opinion that what people are doing in their bedrooms is, in fact, driving the collapse of society. I believe SS relations are categorized by God as abominations such that invariably rot civilizations and invite upon them divine judgment. On that note, it seems clear to me that the obsession with the rainbow flag has been more than merely coincident with our current precipitous decline.

But I am willing to accept that I'm wrong, if I am. (I say that, though accepting the idea that SS acts are a non-issue would definitely seem a bridge too far for me.)

I certainly admit that it could be a problem. I am just saying that I am open to it not being a problem also.
However, it seems these same people that are so violently opposed to homosexuality are often the ones that mistreat their wives, are misogynists, and claim some kind of religious superiority because they have eternal truth that no one else does.

I am against polygamy, however I am also open to it being part of the kingdom of God.
I am against the LDS church, however I am also open to it being part of God's endtime plan.
I am against God having a physical body, however I am open to being wrong about that also.
I am against the LDS concept of the Godhead, however I am open to multiple entities in the Godhead.

We are all totally messed up as a people. I frankly don't care for the rainbow flag and certainly agree there is an agenda of societal degradation.

I just mean that if I was born with a very strong desire to eat cake, and then I eat cake, at what level of "wrongness" is it? You are eating pie because you were born with a desire to do so. Are you better than a cake eater? We are all judged according to our knowledge and everyone's knowledge is at different levels.

From my current knowledge I believe homosexuality is wrong. However, if I saw 2 homosexual people enter heaven then I wouldn't think I had accidently went to hell instead.

You have no clue what is good and what is evil. You equate strong opposition to one the the sickest things to saying that individual is evil.

You are spiritually illiterate. I truly am sad for you as you will be blown whichever way the wind blows with no moral compass.

[Libertas Est Salus]

I truly respect your insights in general, so please don't misinterpret my response. Your comment caught me a little off-guard. I am of the opinion that what people are doing in their bedrooms is, in fact, driving the collapse of society. I believe SS relations are categorized by God as abominations such that invariably rot civilizations and invite upon them divine judgment. On that note, it seems clear to me that the obsession with the rainbow flag has been more than merely coincident with our current precipitous decline.

But I am willing to accept that I'm wrong, if I am. (I say that, though accepting the idea that SS acts are a non-issue would definitely seem a bridge too far for me.)

I certainly admit that it could be a problem. I am just saying that I am open to it not being a problem also.
However, it seems these same people that are so violently opposed to homosexuality are often the ones that mistreat their wives, are misogynists, and claim some kind of religious superiority because they have eternal truth that no one else does.

I am against polygamy, however I am also open to it being part of the kingdom of God.
I am against the LDS church, however I am also open to it being part of God's endtime plan.
I am against God having a physical body, however I am open to being wrong about that also.
I am against the LDS concept of the Godhead, however I am open to multiple entities in the Godhead.

We are all totally messed up as a people. I frankly don't care for the rainbow flag and certainly agree there is an agenda of societal degradation.

I just mean that if I was born with a very strong desire to eat cake, and then I eat cake, at what level of "wrongness" is it? You are eating pie because you were born with a desire to do so. Are you better than a cake eater? We are all judged according to our knowledge and everyone's knowledge is at different levels.

From my current knowledge I believe homosexuality is wrong. However, if I saw 2 homosexual people enter heaven then I wouldn't think I had accidentally went to hell instead.

I certainly agree with your point about the hypocrisy of certain people being so vocally opposed to homosexuality, yet engaging in other abominable behavior.

I also tend to believe righteous judgment is more complex than we often make it, and that it accounts for the individual's unique circumstances/challenges/etc.

Personally, the opposition I feel isn't so much toward the individuals who struggle with the sin so much as the overall agenda as well as the various institutions and figureheads hellbent on normalizing and even exalting the sin as if it were righteousness.

I note that I certainly am not without my own struggles with sin—however different my sins might be.