LDS Freedom Forum

That read like a bot reply.

I chatted with a friend yesterday. They sent their letter to church HQ back in the beginning of May and they still have yet to receive their letter notifying them of their record removal.

It got me thinking, are they stalling to remove records so that their published member data doesn’t look so bad year-to-year? Or, are they swamped in that department because so many members are taking their records out?

BTW, the church today does not need your money to function and operate. And they’ll always have a loyal fan base, regardless of how small. They literally can do whatever the heck they want and you or I don’t matter to them. (I’m speaking about some of the leaders, not all of them. I do believe some of them are genuinely good people and they do care.)

Niemand wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 4:36 am

That reads like you don't have a substantial rebuttal to the logick. Keep reading, maybe you can figure out the answer.

Remember, what I warned before about aura shields.

Niemand wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 4:26 am I know of a case where a couple hd their records removed without their consent or a church court.

They had said that they wished "no contact" some years ago and some bishop had their records deleted. Now they've become semi-active again and they're off the books.

Wow!

What’s the first thing a corporation does when they fire an employee? They revoke all passwords and logins.

No more LDS tools…

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 19th, 2023, 8:15 am What’s the first thing a corporation does when they fire an employee? They revoke all passwords and logins.

No more LDS tools…

I can still log in - but I don't have access to the temple clothing store or members list - but they'll still let me pay tithing.

Congrats, although I still don't understand why it's a big deal for many. I don't think about our care about my "membership" because to me it doesn't mean anything, it's such a worldly consideration.

So just asking to help me understand your views on this.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 2:25 pm Congrats, although I still don't understand why it's a big deal for many. I don't think about our care about my "membership" because to me it doesn't mean anything, it's such a worldly consideration.

So just asking to help me understand your views on this.

I got my official letter just moments ago from church HQ.

Now, as far as why… well, for me, I don’t want the connection or association there, especially when I speak to someone about my belief system and have them wondering why I even remain a member.

Also, keeping your records w/ the church means they can continue to include you in their statistical report. I want to help wake up those saints who are wondering WTH is going on… even if that only pushes (or slows) the data a minuscule amount.

And… by removing my records I take control of how I interact with the church. I’m not giving them any “authority” to haul me in to a church court. Now they know where I stand. At least my bishop and stake president do. And they can’t wield their influence.

And… we are no longer on the rolls of the ward, which means I’m quite excited to see who actually visits our home out of the kindness of their hearts vs. the fulfillment of a calling. I can think of 2-3 visits or phone calls in the last month that were done solely because our records remained w/in the ward.

And… I do see a spiritual cord (however weak) connecting me to the church and their ordinances. I do not agree with how they teach them. I want to sever that connection. Keeping my membership would always be in the back of my mind and I want to move on spiritually.

Ymarsakar wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 4:29 am Pretty sure the bishop had their consent. THe only way not to be contacted, that was the method bishop used.

From what I have been told, you used to be able to say 'Do Not Contact' to a Bishop and they would annotate it in your record. The church removed that function and now you remove everything except their address and the leaders know that means not to contact them. I was told that by my ward clerk as I am in a leadership position and wanted to know how to tell.

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 6:24 pm

Ymarsakar wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 4:29 am Pretty sure the bishop had their consent. THe only way not to be contacted, that was the method bishop used.

From what I have been told, you used to be able to say 'Do Not Contact' to a Bishop and they would annotate it in your record. The church removed that function and now you remove everything except their address and the leaders know that means not to contact them. I was told that by my ward clerk as I am in a leadership position and wanted to know how to tell.

I’ve been a clerk quite a bit I never saw a do not contact option in the software. My solution to this was to write the words do not contact into either the phone or street address field.

gkearney wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 6:37 pm

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 6:24 pm

Ymarsakar wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 4:29 am Pretty sure the bishop had their consent. THe only way not to be contacted, that was the method bishop used.

From what I have been told, you used to be able to say 'Do Not Contact' to a Bishop and they would annotate it in your record. The church removed that function and now you remove everything except their address and the leaders know that means not to contact them. I was told that by my ward clerk as I am in a leadership position and wanted to know how to tell.

I’ve been a clerk quite a bit I never saw a do not contact option in the software. My solution to this was to write the words do not contact into either the phone or street address field.

Maybe that's what he meant by removing the function. He said they can no longer have it say there "do not contact". I just assumed it was a button or something.

As I noted before, my friend has yet to hear back from the Membership people at church HQ. I asked him if he put any timeline in his letter, he said “No.”

So… if you ever have a desire you remove your records, and want a more immediate response, I recommend two things.

1) included some language like this:

This letter is our formal resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and is effective immediately. We hereby withdraw our consent to being treated as members and withdraw our consent to being subject to church rules, policies, beliefs, and discipline. As such we want our names, contact information, and all other notes, annotations, archives, or other records of any kind containing our names, permanently and completely removed from the records of the church within 5 business days of receipt of this notice.

2) include a link to your website that calls into question many questionable doctrines and actions by the church. I’m sure that probably gave them a little extra motivation to have my records removed in a timely manner.

Record removals are not what everyone thinks they are. Here is the test. Have your records “removed” the go to a location where you are not known. Present yourself as an investigator, when giving your information give your legal name, birth date and so on. You will, in a short time discover that the church record keeping system has retained a record of you and that in fact you have not been “forgotten” by the church otherwise they would treat you like any other person that had never been a member to begin with

gkearney wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:16 pm Record removals are not what everyone thinks they are. Here is the test. Have your records “removed” the go to a location where you are not known. Present yourself as an investigator, when giving your information give your legal name, birth date and so on. You will, in a short time discover that the church record keeping system has retained a record of you and that in fact you have not been “forgotten” by the church otherwise they would treat you like any other person that had never been a member to begin with

Oh, I’m sure the church does their thing. Whatever. It’s as official as I can make it.

gkearney wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:16 pm Record removals are not what everyone thinks they are. Here is the test. Have your records “removed” the go to a location where you are not known. Present yourself as an investigator, when giving your information give your legal name, birth date and so on. You will, in a short time discover that the church record keeping system has retained a record of you and that in fact you have not been “forgotten” by the church otherwise they would treat you like any other person that had never been a member to begin with

Yep, cause if someone get rebaptized certain blessings get reinstated, right? Maybe ordination for men too. I can't remember. And they don't know what to reinstate unless they save it all. I have a friend who was excommunicated and when she went back to the temple it wasn't as a newbie. Everything was reinstated, including her temple sealing. They didn't make her do it again.

I think they’d have to completely restructure the entire church, from top to bottom, for me to even think about returning.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 2:25 pm Congrats, although I still don't understand why it's a big deal for many. I don't think about our care about my "membership" because to me it doesn't mean anything, it's such a worldly consideration.

So just asking to help me understand your views on this.

I used to say they'd have to kick me out because all they do is transfer your name from one database to another; but when they came up with the "revelation" of punishing children for the sins of their parents (which they quickly backtracked on after hundreds or more resignations), I could no longer align myself with them. For me it was a "between myself and God" thing.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 4:35 pm And… we are no longer on the rolls of the ward, which means I’m quite excited to see who actually visits our home out of the kindness of their hearts vs. the fulfillment of a calling. I can think of 2-3 visits or phone calls in the last month that were done solely because our records remained w/in the ward.

I was in a ward I had never attended. Partly because I got a live-in (4 days a week, over the weekends) assignment at work soon after I moved there, and partly because I didn't know what ward I was in (I just went to the building closest to me).

My records did finally end up in the right place, and I was assigned a visiting teacher (they hadn't changed the label yet). She came every month, to talk to me at the door or if I wasn't home, leave something on my doorknob. I resigned through the attorney (he hadn't been doing it for long, as I recall. There were not the hoops to jump through that there are now), requesting no contact. The vt came over and asked if I was moving because I had disappeared from the records. I told her I had resigned and asked if she had a problem with that (I asked in a nice way; typed out, it sounds belligerent, but I wasn't). She said no, and asked if it was okay if she continued to come to my place every month (she never preached at me in any conversation we'd ever had). I had no problem with that, and she continued leaving things on my doorknob for a while. I don't know if she stopped because she moved, was told not to do that, or what. She was a nice lady. I liked her.

The only other people I ever saw from the ward were the bishop's counselors who came to visit (outside, in front of the door) after I'd lived there about a year. As you know, shaking hands is a cultural thing, and one of the counselors seemed to kind of jump back, like I shook his hand too long and he thought I was after his bones or something, which is weird because I was probably 10 or 20 years older than him, and was no more interested in him than I would be in the sidewalk I walk on.

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 6:24 pm From what I have been told, you used to be able to say 'Do Not Contact' to a Bishop and they would annotate it in your record. The church removed that function and now you remove everything except their address and the leaders know that means not to contact them. I was told that by my ward clerk as I am in a leadership position and wanted to know how to tell.

That seems kind of weird to remove everything except their address.

When I was a secretary in a Relief Society, we had several people marked "DNC" or "Do not contact." We honored that while I was in that position. My understanding is that a person would be on that list, but after a year or two people would try to make contact with them anyway. In case they changed their minds, I guess. I think different wards reacted differently in how they honored that request.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 7:04 pm 2) include a link to your website that calls into question many questionable doctrines and actions by the church. I’m sure that probably gave them a little extra motivation to have my records removed in a timely manner.

I had the option to include a letter saying anything I thought was pertinent. I don't recall all that I said (I've probably got a copy somewhere), but I do remember that I said I considered Denver Snuffer a true prophet. At the time, the Church was really into ousting everyone who believed what Denver said (even Mike Stroud was on the firing line, even though he was a devout believer - because he was teaching some of the same things Denver was teaching at the time, and because in answer to a question about Denver in a podcast, he did not censure him at all, though he didn't consider Denver a prophet or anything like that).

gkearney wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:16 pm Record removals are not what everyone thinks they are. Here is the test. Have your records “removed” the go to a location where you are not known. Present yourself as an investigator, when giving your information give your legal name, birth date and so on. You will, in a short time discover that the church record keeping system has retained a record of you and that in fact you have not been “forgotten” by the church otherwise they would treat you like any other person that had never been a member to begin with

This is exactly why I used to say that I would never resign. All they do is take your name out of the "members" database and put it into "former members". That's how they "restore former blessings" when someone has been ex'd or resigned if they are rebaptized.

The plus side is that they don't hunt you down. They don't harass anyone and everyone they think might know you so that they know where you're living. And, for me, it was a declaration to God, like I said.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:46 pm I think they’d have to completely restructure the entire church, from top to bottom, for me to even think about returning.

I would never return, because I believed Denver so thoroughly during his 10 lecture circuit that I am convinced that all organized religions were created by devils to gain control over the people's minds and souls - and every single leader class gets plenty of money from the peons, not to mention power and popularity. I used to think the LDS Church was different.

When I finally realized I had to obey no man, only God, it was incredibly freeing!

Silver Pie wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 4:28 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:46 pm I think they’d have to completely restructure the entire church, from top to bottom, for me to even think about returning.

I would never return, because I believed Denver so thoroughly during his 10 lecture circuit that I am convinced that all organized religions were created by devils to gain control over the people's minds and souls - and every single leader class gets plenty of money from the peons, not to mention power and popularity. I used to think the LDS Church was different.

When I finally realized I had to obey no man, only God, it was incredibly freeing!

I don’t think every organized religion is of the devil. I actually think there is good in any group that teaches about God. Some just happen to paint a picture that’s a little more clear, but none of them teach all truth.

gkearney wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:16 pm Record removals are not what everyone thinks they are. Here is the test. Have your records “removed” the go to a location where you are not known. Present yourself as an investigator, when giving your information give your legal name, birth date and so on. You will, in a short time discover that the church record keeping system has retained a record of you and that in fact you have not been “forgotten” by the church otherwise they would treat you like any other person that had never been a member to begin with

That is true. When someone resigns their membership or is excommunicated, Church HQ transfers their records out of their ward and into a large general directory - I forget the exact name but it may be "Undefined."

Silver Pie wrote: ↑September 21st, 2023, 5:40 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 19th, 2023, 8:15 am What’s the first thing a corporation does when they fire an employee? They revoke all passwords and logins.

No more LDS tools…

I can still log in - but I don't have access to the temple clothing store or members list - but they'll still let me pay tithing.

I just logged in to lds.org (it redirects to the current url), and it looks quite different. No longer do I have access to anything except profile info, contact info, and security settings (i.e. login info, etc.). It's weird. Same account for the familysearch.org (at least it used to), so if I delete the account, I'd lose access to that, which I don't want because that's how one logs in to https://relativefinder.org/#/start, which is kind of cool to go to.

Bottom line: No access to anything, including the tithing form and invitation to pay them tithing.

First draft essay written. Now on to the proofing and editing phase w/ attachments and hyperlinks.
I’m excited about this one.