Historical RMN vs. modern RMN

[Seed Starter]

The quote is "good inspiration is based on good information" and it was said by Nelson in one of his first Conference talks as President of the Church. Yet, I will let it fly because oftentimes many Church members confuse "inspiration" with "revelation." One can be "inspired" to do something based on watching others with their experiences. But it wouldn't necessarily come from revelation, which needs to come from above and not beside you. You are absolutely correct that relying more on "inspiration" more so than "revelation" has put the Church into the spot it is now. In order to please everybody at once, it has painted itself into a corner.

I would also like to add information from a separate post as it may have bearing here.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... h-birthday

President Henry B. Eyring, Second Counselor, expressed his thoughts about President Nelson’s role as the Lord’s prophet. “Every time we walk out of the office, President Oaks and I say, ‘It happened again.’ You’ll just see revelation come. You’ll see him ask for counsel, and then the decision will come and everybody in the room knows it is right and from God. He just quietly says, ‘I think this is what the Lord would want us to do.’ It’s just time after time.”

This is where inspiration is being mistaken as revelation. Because let's be clear there has been absolutely no revelation under Rusty. He gave clear direction on Mormon being a victory for Satan but even that was not a revelation. There was no clear divine provenance associated with this mantra. No authorship of the Lord only it came from a man whose title assumes he speaks to/for God. Maybe they have not had real revelation for so long they mistake inspiration, something we can all receive, as the real thing.

Granted, these men who carry an apostle title and allude to seeing/speaking with the Lord should absolutely know the difference but I will leave it at that for this illustration.

I saw that quote on the other post. This just sounds so insane. I have no doubt God can give instant direction as he pleases but it sounds like RMN is a regular old vending machine of revelation. Some people may have to pray and ponder and wait on the Lord but not Rusty. Every time? Really? God has nothing left to teach these men? Revelation is just another day at the office huh? I don't believe it. I can imagine an assistant texting Wendy for him. "Where will the next temple be"? There may be something else at play here



President what should we do? Well this is embarrassing...

[Ymarsakar]

Overall this thread has been a great read. My wife and I have talked about Wendy's probable influence over RMN. But I wanted to veer on a different track and just mention something that has been bothering me for some time now. Which Sub touched on in his comment.

I've heard the phrase that "good information leads to good revelation" so often now that it drives me nuts. While I believe it is true to an extent, I think it has been overused as a crutch for leaders to lean on the arm of the flesh and not rely on the Spirit. In fact, whenever I see the acronym PSR anymore I often think of it as referring to "Pfocus groups, Surveys, and Reports". I feel that data is what drives so many of the decisions of Church leaders. And while data has it's place and should be used, it shouldn't get in the way of revelation through the Holy Ghost.

Side note - I do realize that in order to make the acronym work I had to play off of the phonetic sound of Pf, but if our dear friends at Pfizer can do it then I thought I would as well.

The quote is "good inspiration is based on good information" and it was said by Nelson in one of his first Conference talks as President of the Church. Yet, I will let it fly because oftentimes many Church members confuse "inspiration" with "revelation." One can be "inspired" to do something based on watching others with their experiences. But it wouldn't necessarily come from revelation, which needs to come from above and not beside you. You are absolutely correct that relying more on "inspiration" more so than "revelation" has put the Church into the spot it is now. In order to please everybody at once, it has painted itself into a corner.

No problems with the PF sound; it is essentially the same as the F sound in German. Pfeffer (pepper), Pfingston (Pentecost) and Pferd (horse) all have this sound.

You seem to be hitting a lot of home runs lately, brother. Great thoughts! I love it.

Were you around before the New Sub came online?

Sub used to wear very different robes/clothing.

[TheDuke]

I find this to be VERY ironic indeed.

I am not sure when it started to happen, but the Apostles seem to be briefed by different groups of people who also have callings in the Church.

There was the Area Seventy that also was high on Pfizer's totem pole. The former Seventy, now Apostle, who was a CFR member. Other people connected with the banking industry and the pharmaceutical industry, amongst other industries.

It is said that good inspiration can be based on good information. This information must be weighed against already revealed truth in the Scriptures, PLUS truth that is revealed from on high, whether it go with the counsel or not.

It seems that today's Apostles are briefed more on these world events, and respond to those world events in a way that will seek to piss off the entire world in general less, when they should be going to God to receive confirmation that the events spoken of are true, or are really false flags going on.

The inspiration should be coming from God down to the Apostles. Not from the rank-and-file membership in high places up to the Apostles and then back down to the rank-and-file membership in low places. The bureaucracy would be outgaining the Apostles and that should NOT be the case.

The first talk definitely looks like it could have been God-inspired. Telling people that there might need to be a courageous confrontation with another person if necessary, so that the person doesn't even participate in the sin. Now these days we are told not to rigorously defend our position, or even to show a hint of contention. This strikes more of someone who is fearful than someone who has faith.

The only thing that I can think of that would cause this generalized fear, is if the Church's bank accounts might be in danger if they were to say something similar to the discourses of 30 or 40 years ago. Bank cancellation is a thing now these days; one only need ask Nigel Farage about that in the UK. But this is NO excuse.

Overall this thread has been a great read. My wife and I have talked about Wendy's probable influence over RMN. But I wanted to veer on a different track and just mention something that has been bothering me for some time now. Which Sub touched on in his comment.

I've heard the phrase that "good information leads to good revelation" so often now that it drives me nuts. While I believe it is true to an extent, I think it has been overused as a crutch for leaders to lean on the arm of the flesh and not rely on the Spirit. In fact, whenever I see the acronym PSR anymore I often think of it as referring to "Pfocus groups, Surveys, and Reports". I feel that data is what drives so many of the decisions of Church leaders. And while data has it's place and should be used, it shouldn't get in the way of revelation through the Holy Ghost.

Side note - I do realize that in order to make the acronym work I had to play off of the phonetic sound of Pf, but if our dear friends at Pfizer can do it then I thought I would as well.

The quote is "good inspiration is based on good information" and it was said by Nelson in one of his first Conference talks as President of the Church. Yet, I will let it fly because oftentimes many Church members confuse "inspiration" with "revelation." One can be "inspired" to do something based on watching others with their experiences. But it wouldn't necessarily come from revelation, which needs to come from above and not beside you. You are absolutely correct that relying more on "inspiration" more so than "revelation" has put the Church into the spot it is now. In order to please everybody at once, it has painted itself into a corner.

No problems with the PF sound; it is essentially the same as the F sound in German. Pfeffer (pepper), Pfingston (Pentecost) and Pferd (horse) all have this sound.

I don't think you have a basis for this statement. Not that it isn't true in a basic form. But, as your claiming it just isn't how things work in this telestial probation.

It is true there are multiple sources for our "motivation" or "inspiration", ourselves is the main force, along with watching others, compassion, hate, greed, etc... This maybe driven by our physical self or from our spirit. You are hard pressed to tell for most things, some are obvious (like rooting on a FB game). but we are talking "religious" and "godly" things. Those may come from physical (i.e. yearning to help hungry, sad, etc...) and if that is the inspiration you're talking of ok.

BUT, for many spiritual things, inspiration comes from the "spirit" not the physical. That source may be and most likely is "ourselves" and that is the nature of this world. PERIOD. If you don't accept that and feel that the HG always tells you what to do, then I don't think you comprehend "the spirit". Most of what we see, feel and inspired about is from our pre-mortal knowledge. We (2 of 3 parts) planned well. And usually the "inspiration" and "revelation" (which is for spirit the same damned thing) is remembering and "comprehending" what we already knew or supposed. We are here to gain it as knowledge or comprehension, then it becomes for us "truth". But, to call that source not revelation is improper. This is after all the "light of Christ", which many feel is conscience. There are surely more specific revelations as well, but not very often compared to the LoC as that would defeat this probation.

Higher level revelations do include: angels, visitations, visions, visitations of the Holy Ghost and direct contact spiritually with the HG. Again, these are rare and usually for a specific purpose, not daily or regular communication or direction. Frankly, I chuckle when I read many of Kirkland.rm's posts of fantastic revelations recorded 60 years after-the-fact when you can see nothing gained! I mean when Joseph got a revelation or Paul or Moses, there was a specific message usually one not available, or power given. Not Jesus showing up and saying to reorganized the FP? Note: that Lehi had a dream, Nephi asked for understanding and got some of part of it, but not all. Jacob, Sam and everyone else for the next several hundred years just read about it! That seems how the Lord works.

Sure he will send the HG but the entire LDS perspective that every "revelation" is HG vs. LoC and LoTruth and spirit of Christ (over LoC) vs. truly learning from our pre-mortal planning via the LoC, is incorrect. The HG will do what is necessary, i.e. testify of Christ when ready, provide C&E, but I truly don't see it much more, every thing has a role.

In the end if you cannot run your life by what you call inspiration, you're just plain doomed as you must then be commanded in all things.

The only really powerful revelation I had before my 50's was the Lord coming to me by the HG and telling me that I didn't need to be commanded in all things and was to live by inspiration and not worry about other revelations. I already knew Jesus was Christ after all. That held until I had a deep, deep need, then he came with more. Then back to inspiration for years. Just like Joseph BTW, 100 revelations in 4 years then a handful a year until he died.

BTW, I'm not saying the LDS leaders along the way didn't walk off the trail using their ownself as a guide. I'm simply commenting on the too frequent push that inspiration is NOT revelation and all that are worthy will see Jesus a couple of times a year and
everyone else is unworthy. BS. What kind of probation would that be?

[Ymarsakar]

The problem with inspiration is that human ego gets involved in it. Trance channeling, prophesying the future, and receiving information that does not agree with the human ego mind, tends to side step that issue.

Monson actually had some good stories about where the holy ghost told him he needed to leave a LDS meeting to go to a hospital. He later found out that there was a person there that died that he needed to see, and he would have made it in time if he hadn't dragged his feet. After this, he realized he needed to listen to the HG and exit LDS meetings early.

So Monson had an inspiration or HG clue, but he overrided it using his ego that said "I need to attend meetings, these are important". Actually no, they are not that important.

[CMajor]

The quote is "good inspiration is based on good information" and it was said by Nelson in one of his first Conference talks as President of the Church. Yet, I will let it fly because oftentimes many Church members confuse "inspiration" with "revelation." One can be "inspired" to do something based on watching others with their experiences. But it wouldn't necessarily come from revelation, which needs to come from above and not beside you. You are absolutely correct that relying more on "inspiration" more so than "revelation" has put the Church into the spot it is now. In order to please everybody at once, it has painted itself into a corner.

I would also like to add information from a separate post as it may have bearing here.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... h-birthday

President Henry B. Eyring, Second Counselor, expressed his thoughts about President Nelson’s role as the Lord’s prophet. “Every time we walk out of the office, President Oaks and I say, ‘It happened again.’ You’ll just see revelation come. You’ll see him ask for counsel, and then the decision will come and everybody in the room knows it is right and from God. He just quietly says, ‘I think this is what the Lord would want us to do.’ It’s just time after time.”

This is where inspiration is being mistaken as revelation. Because let's be clear there has been absolutely no revelation under Rusty. He gave clear direction on Mormon being a victory for Satan but even that was not a revelation. There was no clear divine provenance associated with this mantra. No authorship of the Lord only it came from a man whose title assumes he speaks to/for God. Maybe they have not had real revelation for so long they mistake inspiration, something we can all receive, as the real thing.

Granted, these men who carry an apostle title and allude to seeing/speaking with the Lord should absolutely know the difference but I will leave it at that for this illustration.

In this Corporation RMN is right all of the time, even when he's wrong, he's right, because that is what makes him a narcissist. They are NEVER wrong. No other Apostle will ever disagree with him. That's why he wants the rest of us to be non-confrontational, narc's don't like you standing up against them. Just be a good little sheep and run along. I may be abusing you, but it's for my own good, it gives me a narcotic like high. I love being unleashed, doing my own thing, putting my fingerprints over the entire church, because I can. And you can't stop me.
"having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof, from such turn away" (2 Tim.3:5)

[Good & Global]

Surprise they do not have trading cards. Oh you got a RMN rookie card before he got caught lying on social media. Wow I bet that is worth alot! Yeah I just got his autographed 2023 Conference MVP. I keep getting these regardless of what I buy off of the church merch site. But anyways I keep trying because I keep hoping I get his Covid Error card that thing is worth a mint!

[Cruiserdude]

Surprise they do not have trading cards. Oh you got a RMN rookie card before he got caught lying on social media. Wow I bet that is worth alot! Yeah I just got his autographed 2023 Conference MVP. I keep getting these regardless of what I buy off of the church merch site. But anyways I keep trying because I keep hoping I get his Covid Error card that thing is worth a mint!

(I shouldn't laugh but that's FUNNY!)

[larsenb]

President Henry B. Eyring, Second Counselor, expressed his thoughts about President Nelson’s role as the Lord’s prophet. “Every time we walk out of the office, President Oaks and I say, ‘It happened again.’ You’ll just see revelation come. You’ll see him ask for counsel, and then the decision will come and everybody in the room knows it is right and from God. He just quietly says, ‘I think this is what the Lord would want us to do.’ It’s just time after time.” . . . . .

I've directly listened/watched Pres. Eyring repeat variations of this claim about 4 times in the last couple of years, the last time in August. It's becoming somewhat embarrassing.

[Good & Global]

President Henry B. Eyring, Second Counselor, expressed his thoughts about President Nelson’s role as the Lord’s prophet. “Every time we walk out of the office, President Oaks and I say, ‘It happened again.’ You’ll just see revelation come. You’ll see him ask for counsel, and then the decision will come and everybody in the room knows it is right and from God. He just quietly says, ‘I think this is what the Lord would want us to do.’ It’s just time after time.” . . . . .

I've directly listened/watched Pres. Eyring repeat variations of this claim about 4 times in the last couple of years, the last time in August. It's becoming somewhat embarrassing.

He had even yet other variations of this Nelson worship with Hinckley and Monson. Having us read so deep into their words you were anticipating how high to jump before the actual direction was even given based on his interpretation of the law of the witnesses. It is in all of his conference talks along with all the crying but I am not sure the crying was added to the transcripts.