Would You Like To Be A Member Of The True Church?

[SJR3t2]

Do you think the D&C where YHWH tells JS to translate was his imagination also? If so why do you believe in the BoM?

Because the BoM says his calling was to do only one work. An 1829 revelation also says he will only be granted one gift.

Does God lie or does he vary from that he says either to the left or the right?

Some revelations are from God, some from man, some from the Devil. Because God already spoke on this matter, we know it wasn't from God so you are left with two choices.

BoM does not say that about JS. And it's funny you just told me on another thread you don't believe this, it seems you can't make up your mind.

[CaptainM]

D&C, Moroni 8, JST Genesis 17 states you need to be eight to be baptized.

Sorry, the BOM (Moroni 8) does NOT set 8 years old as a baptism age. Little children is the term used in the chapter. JS came up with 8 in HIS revelations after smoking opium or some other form of mindlessness. It may have been a big factor by him in crossing the line to bring the curses of God down in Carthage, IL. Mormon tells us in that chapter where people are sent that believe in such evil things. D&C and JST are fiction.

Moroni 8 points to JST Genesis 17. So you believe JS was a fallen prophet I do not. Do you think the D&C where YHWH tells JS to translate was his imagination also? If so why do you believe in the BoM?

Funny stuff. Where does God call JS a prophet? He called himself that title. As noted he had one gift. He took glory to himself, and fell… way, way down.

[sushi_chef]

ummm..., probably the same to having "the broken heart and contrite spirit", isn't it?!

"The phrase "children are the mirror of their parents" means that children grow up in the family by watching their parents, and therefore they are influenced by their parents.

If you attend to your children, they will do their best," "If they grow up being belittled, they will start belittling others," and other simple wisdom on parenting that anyone can relate to. ..
" deepl

children+are+the+mirror+of+their+parents
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=children+are+ ... =h_&ia=web

[SJR3t2]

Sorry, the BOM (Moroni 8) does NOT set 8 years old as a baptism age. Little children is the term used in the chapter. JS came up with 8 in HIS revelations after smoking opium or some other form of mindlessness. It may have been a big factor by him in crossing the line to bring the curses of God down in Carthage, IL. Mormon tells us in that chapter where people are sent that believe in such evil things. D&C and JST are fiction.

Moroni 8 points to JST Genesis 17. So you believe JS was a fallen prophet I do not. Do you think the D&C where YHWH tells JS to translate was his imagination also? If so why do you believe in the BoM?

Funny stuff. Where does God call JS a prophet? He called himself that title. As noted he had one gift. He took glory to himself, and fell… way, way down.

We simply are not going to agree, take care.

[Shawn Henry]

It's solemn mockery to baptize children because they don't sin, but somehow the day of their eighth birthday they sin and need to be baptized.

How many 8 years olds are still sin free? Probably all of them.

Yeshua did not sin and He was baptized, was that solmn mockery?

Moroni 8 brings out that those who are capable of sinning need to be baptized, and it's a witness of a covenant already made to keep ALL OF YWHW's commandments / Torah.

Wow! Now you're twisting Moroni 8 saying it's ok to baptize children, as long as it's a witness of obedience.

[Shawn Henry]

Do you think the D&C where YHWH tells JS to translate was his imagination also? If so why do you believe in the BoM?

Because the BoM says his calling was to do only one work. An 1829 revelation also says he will only be granted one gift.

Does God lie or does he vary from that he says either to the left or the right?

Some revelations are from God, some from man, some from the Devil. Because God already spoke on this matter, we know it wasn't from God so you are left with two choices.

BoM does not say that about JS. And it's funny you just told me on another thread you don't believe this, it seems you can't make up your mind.

It says exactly that.

And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work (singular) for the fruit of thy loins

8 And I will give unto him a commandment that he shall do none other work

I told you I don't be him to be a fallen prophet, I believe him to be an intercessory prophet, which is a greater honor than being a regular prophet. An intercessory prophet 'stands in the gap' and staves off judgement by taking upon himself the sins of Israel. Joseph had the sins of Israel placed upon him and therefore acted them out. I recommend reading the blogger Onewhoiswatching who writes about this.

[SJR3t2]

It's solemn mockery to baptize children because they don't sin, but somehow the day of their eighth birthday they sin and need to be baptized.

How many 8 years olds are still sin free? Probably all of them.

Yeshua did not sin and He was baptized, was that solmn mockery?

Moroni 8 brings out that those who are capable of sinning need to be baptized, and it's a witness of a covenant already made to keep ALL OF YWHW's commandments / Torah.

Wow! Now you're twisting Moroni 8 saying it's ok to baptize children, as long as it's a witness of obedience.

No twisting. FYI there is a difference between little children and children. We are to take into account ALL YHWH HAS SAID.

[Serragon]

Which can’t help but raise this legitimate question: “How can an eight year-old have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit”?

Because that is the natural state of innocence.

Better that we all start with the covenant at the end of our innocence than to be thrown out into the lone and dreary world to fend for ourselves and hopefully find our way back to make that covenant.

There is not a time in our lives where we do not have more wisdom or experience than we had previously, yet we do not suggest you not make the baptismal covenant until moments before you die. Most 8 year old's can determine that they want to follow Christ, and this builds the foundation for the rest of their lives.

[SJR3t2]

Because the BoM says his calling was to do only one work. An 1829 revelation also says he will only be granted one gift.

Does God lie or does he vary from that he says either to the left or the right?

Some revelations are from God, some from man, some from the Devil. Because God already spoke on this matter, we know it wasn't from God so you are left with two choices.

BoM does not say that about JS. And it's funny you just told me on another thread you don't believe this, it seems you can't make up your mind.

It says exactly that.

And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work (singular) for the fruit of thy loins

8 And I will give unto him a commandment that he shall do none other work

I told you I don't be him to be a fallen prophet, I believe him to be an intercessory prophet, which is a greater honor than being a regular prophet. An intercessory prophet 'stands in the gap' and staves off judgement by taking upon himself the sins of Israel. Joseph had the sins of Israel placed upon him and therefore acted them out. I recommend reading the blogger Onewhoiswatching who writes about this.

2 Nephi 3 is about the Mighty and Strong One, and you are leaving a very important part of the text out.

2 Nephi 3:8
Book of Mormon
Scriptures

save the work which I shall command him

your the one doing the twisting.

[Shawn Henry]

2 Nephi 3 is about the Mighty and Strong One, and you are leaving a very important part of the text out.

2 Nephi 3:8
Book of Mormon
Scriptures

save the work which I shall command him

your the one doing the twisting.

We just covered this in the other thread. One thread isn't enough for you?

JS only did "a" work and he was commanded to do only one work, which command is also in the 1829 revelation.

The next Seer cannot fulfill that portion of the prophecy because he will do many works, not just one work. He will bring forth many volumes of scripture.

[tmac]

Which can’t help but raise this legitimate question: “How can an eight year-old have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit”?

Because that is the natural state of innocence.

Better that we all start with the covenant at the end of our innocence than to be thrown out into the lone and dreary world to fend for ourselves and hopefully find our way back to make that covenant.

There is not a time in our lives where we do not have more wisdom or experience than we had previously, yet we do not suggest you not make the baptismal covenant until moments before you die. Most 8 year old's can determine that they want to follow Christ, and this builds the foundation for the rest of their lives.

The natural state of innocence is a BHCS? How do you figure? What is the doctrinal, factual, or realistic practical basis? When Adam & Eve were in a natural state of innocence, did they have a BHCS? How? What was the practical or doctrinal basis? Without sin, what is the basis for a BHCS?

[SJR3t2]

2 Nephi 3 is about the Mighty and Strong One, and you are leaving a very important part of the text out.

2 Nephi 3:8
Book of Mormon
Scriptures

save the work which I shall command him

your the one doing the twisting.

We just covered this in the other thread. One thread isn't enough for you?

JS only did "a" work and he was commanded to do only one work, which command is also in the 1829 revelation.

The next Seer cannot fulfill that portion of the prophecy because he will do many works, not just one work. He will bring forth many volumes of scripture.

We obviously don't agree with each other. And in the other thread you also leave this same part out.

[HeberC]

The 1829 revelation says, "4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished."
-section 5

According to my reading, Joseph may have received other gifts before the 1829 revelation, but he was not to utilize any of them except the first one until the translation was completed. The Lord said that translation was "the first gift".

[Shawn Henry]

The 1829 revelation says, "4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished."
-section 5

According to my reading, Joseph may have received other gifts before the 1829 revelation, but he was not to utilize any of them except the first one until the translation was completed. The Lord said that translation was "the first gift".

No, that it what it was changed to in the 1835 D&C.

Here is the original 1829 revelation and what it was changed to in 1835:

"...and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift." — Book of Commandments 4:2


"...and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." — Doctrine and Covenants 5:4

[HeberC]

Where can I find the 1829 Book of Commandments?

Never mind. I found it.

[Blue Marble]

It's solemn mockery to baptize children because they don't sin, but somehow the day of their eighth birthday they sin and need to be baptized.

How many 8 years olds are still sin free? Probably all of them.

Has anyone known a bishop who refused to approve the baptism of a developmentally normal 8 year old contrary to the will of the parents?

If you were a bishop, would you do so?

[Shawn Henry]

Where can I find the 1829 Book of Commandments?

Never mind. I found it.

The Book of Commandments wasn't published until 1833. In the 1829 revelations they were told not to teach the new revelations, but only the BoM and the former commandments.

I'm still looking for a source for the 1829 revelations that don't have the 1833 changes. Let me know if you come across those.

[creator]

Tell me how God goes against his own word in the 1829 revelation.

"...and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift." — Book of Commandments 4:2

"...and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." — Doctrine and Covenants 5:4

This is easily explained. It's entirely possible that Joseph later received a better understanding of the revelation. You mustn't think so literally. A revelation isn't necessarily received word for word, but as a sort of mind picture. Divine thoughts and images that must be put into words by the one receiving revelation.

If you have any experience with revelation, you must admit the truth of this possibility, and admit that there are multiple legitimate possibilities why a revelation could be changed.

[Shawn Henry]

Tell me how God goes against his own word in the 1829 revelation.

"...and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift." — Book of Commandments 4:2

"...and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." — Doctrine and Covenants 5:4

This is easily explained. It's entirely possible that Joseph later received a better understanding of the revelation. You mustn't think so literally. A revelation isn't necessarily received word for word, but as a sort of mind picture. Divine thoughts and images that must be put into words by the one receiving revelation.

If you have any experience with revelation, you must admit the truth of this possibility, and admit that there are multiple legitimate possibilities why a revelation could be changed.

It's possible, but that would bring into question the BoM as well, and would merit distrusting all revelations, because at any given time they could be reversed.

There is no line upon line progression from saying "I will grant him no other gift" to then granting him other gifts. It's always the original revelations that have a better claim to purity.

There is also confirmation in the BoM in 2 Ne 3 where the Lord says he will do "a work" (singular) and "I will command him to do no other work".

[Dusty Wanderer]

I testified of my encounter with Jesus Christ in fast and testimony meeting. The bishop was a good friend of mine and I attended his ward so I could make our CFM lesson with some friends. The next month, my bishop friend walked to the back of the chapel, before the meeting started, and asked me not to do it again.

He's a stake president, now. Tonight, I attended his son's wedding reception. My stake president friend rushed me through the line so I wouldn't be able to talk to his son. He did the same thing two months before at his daughter's wedding reception. I watched the line for an hour and he didn't do that with anyone else.

It is shocking and disappointing how people who profess otherwise, don't know Christ or even believe in Him. This man treats me differently. He won't come out and say why because he would be admitting that he doesn't believe people like me can know Christ.

Managers do not promote individuals whose competence might threaten their own position; and so as the power of management spreads ever wider, the quality deteriorates, if that is possible. In short, while management shuns equality, it feeds on mediocrity.

No disrespect intended toward you, but it sounds like your friend has management written all over him. How dare you put him in the awkward position of being questioned about the things you said in that meeting, being expected by fearful others to exercise independent discernment and state a formal position on something not clearly enumerated from those above him.

From his perspective, I'm sure you have exhibited a pattern of behavior that denotes dangerous ideas. Keeping you away from his children helps him avoid the dreaded questions he doesn't have any objective answers to.

The charismatic is always a liability to the institution, and a complete mystery to them, to be handled with healthy dose of skepticism and a little fear. Simply put, it just has no experience of its own with which to comprehend the charismatic.

Only a true company man like your friend is faithful enough to the institution to sacrifice real human connections in favor of the preservation of the lifeless, sparkling edifice.

[Telavian]

It's possible, but that would bring into question the BoM as well, and would merit distrusting all revelations, because at any given time they could be reversed.

There is no line upon line progression from saying "I will grant him no other gift" to then granting him other gifts. It's always the original revelations that have a better claim to purity.

There is also confirmation in the BoM in 2 Ne 3 where the Lord says he will do "a work" (singular) and "I will command him to do no other work".

If this is true then how would you explain the seemingly approval by God of many things after the Book of Mormon?
This would include the Kirtland Temple, the JST, many of the D&C revelations, the entire fulness phase of the Kirtland time.

If this is correct, then either a lot of people made stuff up or God didn't really care about Joseph going beyond the bounds.
Of course the D&C could be made up, however what about the many divine miracles witnessed as part of the Kirtland temple dedication?

[Shawn Henry]

If this is true then how would you explain the seemingly approval by God of many things after the Book of Mormon?
This would include the Kirtland Temple, the JST, many of the D&C revelations, the entire fulness phase of the Kirtland time.

If this is correct, then either a lot of people made stuff up or God didn't really care about Joseph going beyond the bounds.
Of course the D&C could be made up, however what about the many divine miracles witnessed as part of the Kirtland temple dedication?

I don't employ a black and white view, more like shades of gray and spots of white intermixed with black, essentially, it's a mixed bag. (and the ultimate learning experience as far as discerning where truth begins, and falsehood starts, a PHD level discernment class)

There's a strong comparison between the 1829 revelation that says "one gift" and the commandment to "pretend to no other gift" and the Joseph the Seer prophecy that says "a work" and the commandment to do "no other work".

It can't be coincidence that the BoM was the only work that God provided 3 witnesses for. He obviously didn't lie when he says every word will have 2 or 3 witnesses.

I think we should be asking what would make Joseph and Oliver to start changing the original revelations.

Also, is the slippery slope downward incremental? Did it start with the loss of the fulness in 1834, or the condemnation in 1832, or yielding to the persuasions of men on 6 April 1830 by organizing God's church according to man's rules, or making it an organization in general?

We have 1829 revelations where the brethren were commanded to organize the church according to the BoM and to preach only the BoM and to not publish those revelations. Why didn't they do these things? Why would they publish the revelations? If we are to preach only the BoM, why would we be given section 76? It makes it seem like it is inconsequential when we disregard the Lord.

If you like the blogger Watcher and his work, I think you would like Dick Bauman's presentations on the early history of the church.
https://www.youtube.com/@whathappenedtothechurch6512

[Telavian]

If you like the blogger Watcher and his work, I think you would like Dick Bauman's presentations on the early history of the church.
https://www.youtube.com/@whathappenedtothechurch6512

Thank you. I will check it out. Early church history is a mess certainly.

I don't really know much about Watcher, but I do know you said the Iron Rod podcast talks all their material from watcher and I love that podcast.
I also have Watchers book and plan to read it soon.

Anyways, thanks for the information and the youtube link.

[JK4Woods]

I always found it odd that clicking over birthdays when a pre-teen meant advancement in the priesthood. … just like it’s odd the longest serving gets to be president….