Would You Like To Be A Member Of The True Church?

[CaptainM]

Here are the necessary steps/actions as delineated by a real prophet and seer:

1)AND now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2)Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3)And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4)And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith. (Moroni 6)

Some take-aways:
1) Not baptized until fruits indicating they were worthy of it;
2) A broken heart and contrite spirit essential;
3) Witness to the church repented of ALL sins;
4) Take upon the name of Christ;
5) Determination to serve Christ until the end;
6) Wrought upon and cleansed by the Holy Ghost;
7) Have to be a genius 8 year old;
7) After ALL the above, then numbered with the church.

and then...
A) Nourished by the good word;
B) Continually watchful unto prayer;
C) Rely alone upon Christ's merits.

Of consideration:
14) And for this cause have I said, if this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them. Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church: therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven...
17) Behold this is my doctrine: whosoever repenteth, and cometh unto me, the same is my church: whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me: therefore, he is not of my church.
18) And now, behold whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my Rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.(Book of Commandments IX)

12)And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw...
14)And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb (that is the true saints), and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. (1 Nephi 14)

Do we have true membership? Are we waiting upon the Lord?

[marc]

"Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized..."

Were they already baptized members and then rebaptized after bringing forth fruits?
While Samuel the Lamanite was preaching from a wall, Nephi was out baptizing people (he had authority, right?). Then when Jesus visited Bountiful, He brought Nephi forth and gave him "power" to baptize again and then people became rebaptized.

Interesting stuff...

[tmac]

Which can’t help but raise this legitimate question: “How can an eight year-old have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit”?

In the end, I think that is the main thing that most people will end up lacking — a genuinely broken heart and contrite spirit. I don’t think most of us even know what it actually means.

[HeberC]

I testified of my encounter with Jesus Christ in fast and testimony meeting. The bishop was a good friend of mine and I attended his ward so I could make our CFM lesson with some friends. The next month, my bishop friend walked to the back of the chapel, before the meeting started, and asked me not to do it again.

He's a stake president, now. Tonight, I attended his son's wedding reception. My stake president friend rushed me through the line so I wouldn't be able to talk to his son. He did the same thing two months before at his daughter's wedding reception. I watched the line for an hour and he didn't do that with anyone else.

It is shocking and disappointing how people who profess otherwise, don't know Christ or even believe in Him. This man treats me differently. He won't come out and say why because he would be admitting that he doesn't believe people like me can know Christ.

[Cruiserdude]

I testified of my encounter with Jesus Christ in fast and testimony meeting. The bishop was a good friend of mine and I attended his ward so I could make our CFM lesson with some friends. The next month, my bishop friend walked to the back of the chapel, before the meeting started, and asked me not to do it again.

He's a stake president, now. Tonight, I attended his son's wedding reception. My stake president friend rushed me through the line so I wouldn't be able to talk to his son. He did the same thing two months before at his daughter's wedding reception. I watched the line for an hour and he didn't do that with anyone else.

It is shocking and disappointing how people who profess otherwise, don't know Christ or even believe in Him. This man treats me differently. He won't come out and say why because he would be admitting that he doesn't believe people like me can know Christ.

Hermano, I SEEK to be around people like you..... I want to be around people who know and understand our Master.

[edavid]

Jesus was 30 when baptized. My kids ask the missionaries and leaders why 8, if it could bring condenmation upon them when older... why not wait to follow Jesus example at 30...

[Ymarsakar]

I testified of my encounter with Jesus Christ in fast and testimony meeting. The bishop was a good friend of mine and I attended his ward so I could make our CFM lesson with some friends. The next month, my bishop friend walked to the back of the chapel, before the meeting started, and asked me not to do it again.

He's a stake president, now. Tonight, I attended his son's wedding reception. My stake president friend rushed me through the line so I wouldn't be able to talk to his son. He did the same thing two months before at his daughter's wedding reception. I watched the line for an hour and he didn't do that with anyone else.

It is shocking and disappointing how people who profess otherwise, don't know Christ or even believe in Him. This man treats me differently. He won't come out and say why because he would be admitting that he doesn't believe people like me can know Christ.

When did this start? Do you have any doctrine differences from what he teaches?

[Shawn Henry]

Where is this rightful authority to baptize?

[Thinker]

Jesus was 30 when baptized. My kids ask the missionaries and leaders why 8, if it could bring condenmation upon them when older... why not wait to follow Jesus example at 30...

That makes sense! We have it a bit more together by then.

Still, I can see wisdom for 8 too. In child development, about the age of 8 is when children begin to understand the difference between imagination & reality & can choose for themselves better. And even if they take upon themselves way too big shoes to fill, at least it’s a good goal & I like the right of passage - one time when community gathers around to support them.

From a corporate perspective, of course, the youth need to be molded early to grow up to be good tithe payers.

[Thinker]

Where is this rightful authority to baptize?

Women.
Only women have the authority and ability to ensure their child is “born of water.” And everyone is! So no pretending you’re better than someone else who was not born of water.

[Original_Intent]

Which can’t help but raise this legitimate question: “How can an eight year-old have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit”?

In the end, I think that is the main thing that most people will end up lacking — a genuinely broken heart and contrite spirit. I don’t think most of us even know what it actually means.

An eight year old CAN be ready to make this covenant. Most people VASTLY underestimate the capabilities of their children.

If we don't talk down to them and treat them with respect and that we believe that they are capable of engaging, you can see amazing ability for understanding even at pre-school age.

My youngest beat me at chess at age 5. I am no chess master, but I didn't suck at the time. I will admit that I probably was not taking the game seriously, but I did not "throw" the game either.

My eldest "discovered" with no prompting from us, negative numbers at age three. He asked "What happens if I subtract 6 from 5?" My wife told him "That is negative 1." He considered this for about 5 seconds, brightened, and said "5 minus 7 is negative 2! 5 minus 8 is negative 3!"

Now admittedly, raw IQ wise they are both exceptional.

My eldest also made the decision, on his own, not to partake of the sacrament until after he was baptized.

My experience as both a nursery leader as well as someone who taught 7 year-olds and 14-15 year olds in Sunday School - both age groups are capable of quite profound things if we stop placing limitations on them, thinking "That is too complex to discuss with a __-year old."

My opinion is we CONDITION most children to think well below their capacity. Which is unfortunate, because when they are treated as incapable at very young age, they believe it, and I think rarely unlearn it.

[HeberC]

Ymarsakar, in answer to your questions, this started after I testified of Christ. That is all I spoke of.

[CaptainM]

Where is this rightful authority to baptize?

IMO we must wait upon the Lord. Certainly the three Nephites have it. I want a new baptism with all my heart and soul, but I won't settle to be deceived again. The Lord had all the Nephites be newly baptized after He came to them. Perhaps a symbolism of things to come.

[tmac]

Which can’t help but raise this legitimate question: “How can an eight year-old have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit”?

In the end, I think that is the main thing that most people will end up lacking — a genuinely broken heart and contrite spirit. I don’t think most of us even know what it actually means.

An eight year old CAN be ready to make this covenant. Most people VASTLY underestimate the capabilities of their children.

If we don't talk down to them and treat them with respect and that we believe that they are capable of engaging, you can see amazing ability for understanding even at pre-school age.

My youngest beat me at chess at age 5. I am no chess master, but I didn't suck at the time. I will admit that I probably was not taking the game seriously, but I did not "throw" the game either.

My eldest "discovered" with no prompting from us, negative numbers at age three. He asked "What happens if I subtract 6 from 5?" My wife told him "That is negative 1." He considered this for about 5 seconds, brightened, and said "5 minus 7 is negative 2! 5 minus 8 is negative 3!"

Now admittedly, raw IQ wise they are both exceptional.

My eldest also made the decision, on his own, not to partake of the sacrament until after he was baptized.

My experience as both a nursery leader as well as someone who taught 7 year-olds and 14-15 year olds in Sunday School - both age groups are capable of quite profound things if we stop placing limitations on them, thinking "That is too complex to discuss with a __-year old."

My opinion is we CONDITION most children to think well below their capacity. Which is unfortunate, because when they are treated as incapable at very young age, they believe it, and I think rarely unlearn it.

I still question whether the average modern eight year-old in most developed countries (and especially the U.S.) has the capacity to have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit. What would give them a that capacity? I know I didn’t have that capacity at that age. I sincerely question whether I have actually acquired that capacity yet. We just recently baptized an eight year-old granddaughter, and I don’t see anything in her that would lead me to think that she currently has that capacity.

And, in my evolved view, a true BH&CS (which I actually believe is a gift, which cannot be actually and fully experienced without being quickened by the spirit) is essentially the key to everything, including BFHG, and experiencing a “Mighty Change.” From what I can understand, in terms of essential component parts, that Mighty Change cannot occur without both BHCS and BFHG.

To the extent a collective BH&CS were present, everything would be different (I.e., mighty change). We would be different. The Church would be different. LDSFF and the discussions here would be different. And, the world would be different. In my view, it is probably the single biggest thing that is lacking.

To help emphasize my point, I will share a story that I have shared elsewhere.

I have a cousin who is a few years older than me, who now lives in the East, where he has been for 35+ years, but a life-long member of the church, and grew up as a very traditional TBM Brethrenite here in the West, and despite his relocation, fully continued in the TBM mode until a couple years ago.

Although he lives in "the Mission field," he intentionally lives fairly close to a temple, and for years, he spent a lot of time in the temple, and was a regular ordinance worker, etc. Then, one day, as he was in the chapel, preparing to officiate in the next scheduled session, the temple president came to him, took him aside, and said he wanted to visit with him for a minute. Under the circumstances, they were pressed for time, but the temple president very abruptly completely blindsided him by summarily releasing him as a temple ordinance worker, and said that if he had any questions, he should talk to his stake president about it.

As it turns out, it had something to do with some kind of business misunderstanding with someone from another stake, but the bottom line was, his immediate and abrupt release as a temple ordinance worker shattered his whole paradigm and identity, and sent him into a total tailspin. He explained to me that what he eventually came to realize was that his whole paradigm and identity as a member of the church was completely wrapped up in his very visible temple work, and how he was seen and perceived by other church members in that area -- always in the temple; always doing the Lord's work; such a "saintly" man.

He said the whole experience rocked him to the very core, and plummeted him into deep depression, which then, at the age of 60+ put him on the path of a spiritual journey that he had never previously experienced in his life, and ultimately culminated in a BFHG experience that he could hardly even describe. He had spent about 60 years of his life thinking he knew what everything, including the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc., meant, only to find out that he didn't even know what he didn't know. The interesting thing was, that based on his lifetime experience in the Church, at that point he didn't even have terminology or understanding to grasp or describe what had actually happened.

He said that aside from some instances in the BoM, in his entire life, the only people he has heard bear the kind of testimony that would seem to “match” and/or be consistent with his experience, has been from people who are addicts and/or imprisoned, scraping the bottom of the barrel, and in the utter depths of despair, who, with a genuinely broken heart and contrite spirit, reached out to God in utmost sincerity — and felt God reach back.

Without going into any more detail about his whole experience, among other things, the main point I wanted to emphasize and illustrate with this story is that while the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a one-size-fits-all proposition, a broken heart and contrite spirit is something that is, and ultimately will be, required of all of us.

We all have our own unique crosses to bear, demons to deal with, and specific things that God will ask us, individually, to put on the table. In my experience, it is probably not so much the temporary destination, but ultimately more the journey, that must ultimately include a broken heart and contrite spirit, that really matters.

[CaptainM]

Which can’t help but raise this legitimate question: “How can an eight year-old have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit”?

In the end, I think that is the main thing that most people will end up lacking — a genuinely broken heart and contrite spirit. I don’t think most of us even know what it actually means.

An eight year old CAN be ready to make this covenant. Most people VASTLY underestimate the capabilities of their children.

If we don't talk down to them and treat them with respect and that we believe that they are capable of engaging, you can see amazing ability for understanding even at pre-school age.

My youngest beat me at chess at age 5. I am no chess master, but I didn't suck at the time. I will admit that I probably was not taking the game seriously, but I did not "throw" the game either.

My eldest "discovered" with no prompting from us, negative numbers at age three. He asked "What happens if I subtract 6 from 5?" My wife told him "That is negative 1." He considered this for about 5 seconds, brightened, and said "5 minus 7 is negative 2! 5 minus 8 is negative 3!"

Now admittedly, raw IQ wise they are both exceptional.

My eldest also made the decision, on his own, not to partake of the sacrament until after he was baptized.

My experience as both a nursery leader as well as someone who taught 7 year-olds and 14-15 year olds in Sunday School - both age groups are capable of quite profound things if we stop placing limitations on them, thinking "That is too complex to discuss with a __-year old."

My opinion is we CONDITION most children to think well below their capacity. Which is unfortunate, because when they are treated as incapable at very young age, they believe it, and I think rarely unlearn it.

I still question whether the average modern eight year-old in most developed countries (and especially the U.S.) has the capacity to have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit. What would give them a that capacity? I know I didn’t have that capacity at that age. I sincerely question whether I have actually acquired that capacity yet. We just recently baptized an eight year-old granddaughter, and I don’t see anything in her that would lead me to think that she currently has that capacity.

And, in my evolved view, a true BH&CS (which I actually believe is a gift, which cannot be actually and fully experienced without being quickened by the spirit) is essentially the key to everything.

To the extent a collective BH&CS were present, everything would be different. We would be different. The Church would be different. LDSFF and the discussions here would be different. And, the world would be different. In my view, it is probably the single biggest thing that is lacking.

To help emphasize my point, I will share a story that I have shared elsewhere.

I have a cousin who is a few years older than me, who now lives in the East, where he has been for 35+ years, but a life-long member of the church, and grew up as a very traditional TBM Brethrenite here in the West, and despite his relocation, fully continued in the TBM mode until a couple years ago.

Although he lives in "the Mission field," he intentionally lives fairly close to a temple, and for years, he spent a lot of time in the temple, and was a regular ordinance worker, etc. Then, one day, as he was in the chapel, preparing to officiate in the next scheduled session, the temple president came to him, took him aside, and said he wanted to visit with him for a minute. Under the circumstances, they were pressed for time, but the temple president very abruptly completely blindsided him by summarily releasing him as a temple ordinance worker, and said that if he had any questions, he should talk to his stake president about it.

As it turns out, it had something to do with some kind of business misunderstanding with someone from another stake, but the bottom line was, his immediate and abrupt release as a temple ordinance worker shattered his whole paradigm and identity, and sent him into a total tailspin. He explained to me that what he eventually came to realize was that his whole paradigm and identity as a member of the church was completely wrapped up in his very visible temple work, and how he was seen and perceived by other church members in that area -- always in the temple; always doing the Lord's work; such a "saintly" man.

He said the whole experience rocked him to the very core, and plummeted him into deep depression, which then, at the age of 60+ put him on the path of a spiritual journey that he had never previously experienced in his life, and ultimately culminated in a BFHG experience that he could hardly even describe. He had spent about 60 years of his life thinking he knew what everything, including the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc., meant, only to find out that he didn't even know what he didn't know. The interesting thing was, that based on his lifetime experience in the Church, at that point he didn't even have terminology or understanding to grasp or describe what had actually happened.

He said that aside from some instances in the BoM, in his entire life, the only people he has heard bear the kind of testimony that would seem to “match” and/or be consistent with his experience, has been from people who are addicts and/or imprisoned, scraping the bottom of the barrel, and in the utter depths of despair, who, with a genuinely broken heart and contrite spirit, reached out to God in utmost sincerity — and felt God reach back.

Without going into any more detail about his whole experience, among other things, the main point I wanted to emphasize and illustrate with this story is that while the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a one-size-fits-all proposition, a broken heart and contrite spirit is something that is, and ultimately will be, required of all of us.

We all have our own unique crosses to bear, demons to deal with, and specific things that God will ask us, individually, to put on the table. In my experience, it is probably not so much the temporary destination, but ultimately more the journey, that must ultimately include a broken heart and contrite spirit, that really matters.

I can relate to your cousin. Same story different circumstances.

Blessed be the name of our God!

Publicans go into the kingdom of heaven before the scribes and pharisees.

[Original_Intent]

Which can’t help but raise this legitimate question: “How can an eight year-old have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit”?

In the end, I think that is the main thing that most people will end up lacking — a genuinely broken heart and contrite spirit. I don’t think most of us even know what it actually means.

An eight year old CAN be ready to make this covenant. Most people VASTLY underestimate the capabilities of their children.

If we don't talk down to them and treat them with respect and that we believe that they are capable of engaging, you can see amazing ability for understanding even at pre-school age.

My youngest beat me at chess at age 5. I am no chess master, but I didn't suck at the time. I will admit that I probably was not taking the game seriously, but I did not "throw" the game either.

My eldest "discovered" with no prompting from us, negative numbers at age three. He asked "What happens if I subtract 6 from 5?" My wife told him "That is negative 1." He considered this for about 5 seconds, brightened, and said "5 minus 7 is negative 2! 5 minus 8 is negative 3!"

Now admittedly, raw IQ wise they are both exceptional.

My eldest also made the decision, on his own, not to partake of the sacrament until after he was baptized.

My experience as both a nursery leader as well as someone who taught 7 year-olds and 14-15 year olds in Sunday School - both age groups are capable of quite profound things if we stop placing limitations on them, thinking "That is too complex to discuss with a __-year old."

My opinion is we CONDITION most children to think well below their capacity. Which is unfortunate, because when they are treated as incapable at very young age, they believe it, and I think rarely unlearn it.

I still question whether the average modern eight year-old in most developed countries (and especially the U.S.) has the capacity to have a genuine broken heart and contrite spirit. What would give them a that capacity? I know I didn’t have that capacity at that age. I sincerely question whether I have actually acquired that capacity yet. We just recently baptized an eight year-old granddaughter, and I don’t see anything in her that would lead me to think that she currently has that capacity.

And, in my evolved view, a true BH&CS (which I actually believe is a gift, which cannot be actually and fully experienced without being quickened by the spirit) is essentially the key to everything, including BFHG, and experiencing a “Mighty Change.” From what I can understand, in terms of essential component parts, that Mighty Change cannot occur without both BHCS and BFHG.

To the extent a collective BH&CS were present, everything would be different (I.e., mighty change). We would be different. The Church would be different. LDSFF and the discussions here would be different. And, the world would be different. In my view, it is probably the single biggest thing that is lacking.

To help emphasize my point, I will share a story that I have shared elsewhere.

I have a cousin who is a few years older than me, who now lives in the East, where he has been for 35+ years, but a life-long member of the church, and grew up as a very traditional TBM Brethrenite here in the West, and despite his relocation, fully continued in the TBM mode until a couple years ago.

Although he lives in "the Mission field," he intentionally lives fairly close to a temple, and for years, he spent a lot of time in the temple, and was a regular ordinance worker, etc. Then, one day, as he was in the chapel, preparing to officiate in the next scheduled session, the temple president came to him, took him aside, and said he wanted to visit with him for a minute. Under the circumstances, they were pressed for time, but the temple president very abruptly completely blindsided him by summarily releasing him as a temple ordinance worker, and said that if he had any questions, he should talk to his stake president about it.

As it turns out, it had something to do with some kind of business misunderstanding with someone from another stake, but the bottom line was, his immediate and abrupt release as a temple ordinance worker shattered his whole paradigm and identity, and sent him into a total tailspin. He explained to me that what he eventually came to realize was that his whole paradigm and identity as a member of the church was completely wrapped up in his very visible temple work, and how he was seen and perceived by other church members in that area -- always in the temple; always doing the Lord's work; such a "saintly" man.

He said the whole experience rocked him to the very core, and plummeted him into deep depression, which then, at the age of 60+ put him on the path of a spiritual journey that he had never previously experienced in his life, and ultimately culminated in a BFHG experience that he could hardly even describe. He had spent about 60 years of his life thinking he knew what everything, including the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc., meant, only to find out that he didn't even know what he didn't know. The interesting thing was, that based on his lifetime experience in the Church, at that point he didn't even have terminology or understanding to grasp or describe what had actually happened.

He said that aside from some instances in the BoM, in his entire life, the only people he has heard bear the kind of testimony that would seem to “match” and/or be consistent with his experience, has been from people who are addicts and/or imprisoned, scraping the bottom of the barrel, and in the utter depths of despair, who, with a genuinely broken heart and contrite spirit, reached out to God in utmost sincerity — and felt God reach back.

Without going into any more detail about his whole experience, among other things, the main point I wanted to emphasize and illustrate with this story is that while the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a one-size-fits-all proposition, a broken heart and contrite spirit is something that is, and ultimately will be, required of all of us.

We all have our own unique crosses to bear, demons to deal with, and specific things that God will ask us, individually, to put on the table. In my experience, it is probably not so much the temporary destination, but ultimately more the journey, that must ultimately include a broken heart and contrite spirit, that really matters.

I agree on the broken heart and contrite spirit. I guess my position is that an 8-year old can be prepared to enter the covenant and receive the physical ordinance of bearing witness of their commitment. Like any ordinance, until ratified in heaven (and I would PERSONALLY guess that the BF&HG is the ratification of physical baptism) I child can be ready to understand and make the commitment.

My feeling is that virtually no 8 year old in the church is properly prepared, and baptism is considered by everyone involved to be a box that WILL be checked off when they turn 8. Sure, it is an important one and everyone will ooh and aah and fuss over them, but it is the first of many "covenant path" decisions that honestly have been made for them in advance.

[SJR3t2]

Here are the necessary steps/actions as delineated by a real prophet and seer:

1)AND now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2)Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3)And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4)And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith. (Moroni 6)

Some take-aways:
1) Not baptized until fruits indicating they were worthy of it;
2) A broken heart and contrite spirit essential;
3) Witness to the church repented of ALL sins;
4) Take upon the name of Christ;
5) Determination to serve Christ until the end;
6) Wrought upon and cleansed by the Holy Ghost;
7) Have to be a genius 8 year old;
7) After ALL the above, then numbered with the church.

and then...
A) Nourished by the good word;
B) Continually watchful unto prayer;
C) Rely alone upon Christ's merits.

Of consideration:
14) And for this cause have I said, if this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them. Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church: therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven...
17) Behold this is my doctrine: whosoever repenteth, and cometh unto me, the same is my church: whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me: therefore, he is not of my church.
18) And now, behold whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my Rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.(Book of Commandments IX)

12)And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw...
14)And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb (that is the true saints), and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. (1 Nephi 14)

Do we have true membership? Are we waiting upon the Lord?

FYI to be a "elders, priests, and teachers" they had to be baptized before because you have to be a member before you can be a "elders, priests, and teachers".

Other scriptures and JS taught and did rebaptism of members in good standing https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/baptism/

[SJR3t2]

Here are the necessary steps/actions as delineated by a real prophet and seer:

1)AND now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2)Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3)And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4)And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith. (Moroni 6)

Some take-aways:
1) Not baptized until fruits indicating they were worthy of it;
2) A broken heart and contrite spirit essential;
3) Witness to the church repented of ALL sins;
4) Take upon the name of Christ;
5) Determination to serve Christ until the end;
6) Wrought upon and cleansed by the Holy Ghost;
7) Have to be a genius 8 year old;
7) After ALL the above, then numbered with the church.

and then...
A) Nourished by the good word;
B) Continually watchful unto prayer;
C) Rely alone upon Christ's merits.

Of consideration:
14) And for this cause have I said, if this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them. Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church: therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven...
17) Behold this is my doctrine: whosoever repenteth, and cometh unto me, the same is my church: whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me: therefore, he is not of my church.
18) And now, behold whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my Rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.(Book of Commandments IX)

12)And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw...
14)And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb (that is the true saints), and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. (1 Nephi 14)

Do we have true membership? Are we waiting upon the Lord?

D&C, Moroni 8, JST Genesis 17 states you need to be eight to be baptized.

[SJR3t2]

Jesus was 30 when baptized. My kids ask the missionaries and leaders why 8, if it could bring condenmation upon them when older... why not wait to follow Jesus example at 30...

It was a rebaptism as taught in the scriptures including the BoM and early LDS leaders including JS. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/baptism/

[CaptainM]

Here are the necessary steps/actions as delineated by a real prophet and seer:

1)AND now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2)Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3)And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4)And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith. (Moroni 6)

Some take-aways:
1) Not baptized until fruits indicating they were worthy of it;
2) A broken heart and contrite spirit essential;
3) Witness to the church repented of ALL sins;
4) Take upon the name of Christ;
5) Determination to serve Christ until the end;
6) Wrought upon and cleansed by the Holy Ghost;
7) Have to be a genius 8 year old;
7) After ALL the above, then numbered with the church.

and then...
A) Nourished by the good word;
B) Continually watchful unto prayer;
C) Rely alone upon Christ's merits.

Of consideration:
14) And for this cause have I said, if this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them. Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church: therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven...
17) Behold this is my doctrine: whosoever repenteth, and cometh unto me, the same is my church: whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me: therefore, he is not of my church.
18) And now, behold whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my Rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.(Book of Commandments IX)

12)And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw...
14)And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb (that is the true saints), and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. (1 Nephi 14)

Do we have true membership? Are we waiting upon the Lord?

D&C, Moroni 8, JST Genesis 17 states you need to be eight to be baptized.

Sorry, the BOM (Moroni 8) does NOT set 8 years old as a baptism age. Little children is the term used in the chapter. JS came up with 8 in HIS revelations after smoking opium or some other form of mindlessness. It may have been a big factor by him in crossing the line to bring the curses of God down in Carthage, IL. Mormon tells us in that chapter where people are sent that believe in such evil things. D&C and JST are fiction.

[SJR3t2]

Here are the necessary steps/actions as delineated by a real prophet and seer:

1)AND now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2)Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3)And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4)And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith. (Moroni 6)

Some take-aways:
1) Not baptized until fruits indicating they were worthy of it;
2) A broken heart and contrite spirit essential;
3) Witness to the church repented of ALL sins;
4) Take upon the name of Christ;
5) Determination to serve Christ until the end;
6) Wrought upon and cleansed by the Holy Ghost;
7) Have to be a genius 8 year old;
7) After ALL the above, then numbered with the church.

and then...
A) Nourished by the good word;
B) Continually watchful unto prayer;
C) Rely alone upon Christ's merits.

Of consideration:
14) And for this cause have I said, if this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them. Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church: therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven...
17) Behold this is my doctrine: whosoever repenteth, and cometh unto me, the same is my church: whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me: therefore, he is not of my church.
18) And now, behold whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my Rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.(Book of Commandments IX)

12)And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw...
14)And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb (that is the true saints), and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. (1 Nephi 14)

Do we have true membership? Are we waiting upon the Lord?

D&C, Moroni 8, JST Genesis 17 states you need to be eight to be baptized.

Sorry, the BOM (Moroni 8) does NOT set 8 years old as a baptism age. Little children is the term used in the chapter. JS came up with 8 in HIS revelations after smoking opium or some other form of mindlessness. It may have been a big factor by him in crossing the line to bring the curses of God down in Carthage, IL. Mormon tells us in that chapter where people are sent that believe in such evil things. D&C and JST are fiction.

Moroni 8 points to JST Genesis 17. So you believe JS was a fallen prophet I do not. Do you think the D&C where YHWH tells JS to translate was his imagination also? If so why do you believe in the BoM?

[Shawn Henry]

It's solemn mockery to baptize children because they don't sin, but somehow the day of their eighth birthday they sin and need to be baptized.

How many 8 years olds are still sin free? Probably all of them.

[Shawn Henry]

Do you think the D&C where YHWH tells JS to translate was his imagination also? If so why do you believe in the BoM?

Because the BoM says his calling was to do only one work. An 1829 revelation also says he will only be granted one gift.

Does God lie or does he vary from that he says either to the left or the right?

Some revelations are from God, some from man, some from the Devil. Because God already spoke on this matter, we know it wasn't from God so you are left with two choices.

[Shawn Henry]

Tell me how God goes against his own word in the 1829 revelation.

"...and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift." — Book of Commandments 4:2


"...and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." — Doctrine and Covenants 5:4

[SJR3t2]

It's solemn mockery to baptize children because they don't sin, but somehow the day of their eighth birthday they sin and need to be baptized.

How many 8 years olds are still sin free? Probably all of them.

Yeshua did not sin and He was baptized, was that solmn mockery?

Moroni 8 brings out that those who are capable of sinning need to be baptized, and it's a witness of a covenant already made to keep ALL OF YWHW's commandments / Torah.