City of Satan/Enoch

[Shawn Henry]

You already mix science fiction (flat Earth) with scripture, so why stop now?

The Bible has always had such a cosmology. Pretty much all theologians and historians agree on this. Don't blame me for reading the creation account just as it is written, I didn't write it.

I take it that your attempt to distract from the thread with a pot-shot is a reflection of the thread emotionally triggering you.

Dang, It was a JOKE. No hard feelings man. Sorry, you didn't take it the way it was intended.

Sorry if I misunderstood your intent.

[Godislove]

Because there was a Holy Enoch that founded the city of righteousness.

Yeah, that's the belief, I get it, but do you at least think it is a little odd that the first City of Enoch was founded by Master Mahan himself and that a righteous city would be named after it?

I'm of the opinion as one of the previous poster's that this is simply a case of 2 people with the same name....one righteous and the other wicked both with cities named after them.
Not necessarily that the righteous city of Enoch was being named after the wicked city of Enoch but rather it was being named after the righteous Enoch.

[Peeps]

I haven't read the book of Enoch, but I don't think any city is in there. It is solely a JS thing. There is no reference to it in the BoM, which seems odd.

JS said some revelations are from God, some from man, some from the Devil. I think this City of Enoch change is not from God. Like I said in the OP, why would the Lord name a holy city after the city that is the headquarters of wickedness?

There are several books of Enoch out now. The only one of them I give any merit to is 1 Enoch that has been part of the Ethiopian Church's cannon for centuries, it was also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and has been quoted in the New Testament, particularly by Jude.
Jude 14-15 It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

And 1 Enoch 1:9:
Behold, he comes with the myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.

Not only that, but 1 Enoch chapter 6 correlates to Genesis chapter 6, dealing with the fallen Watchers/Sons of God who saw the daughters of men were fair, except 1 Enoch chapter 6 names the names.

https://sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm

And there is no mentioning of this Enoch ever building a city.

The book of 2 Enoch, is very interesting, as it talks about the "Gregori" in chapter 18, dwelling in the fifth heaven, mourning for their brethren that made an oath on Mt Hermon to have children by the daughters of men. It seems to go along more or less with 1 Enoch.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepig ... nochs2.htm

3 Enoch is very different. It is about Enoch's transformation to the angel, Metatron, who is revered by the New Age as an, or perhaps THE "ascended master," for his cube contains all the Platonic solids, so I think he is probably the "anointed cherub that covereth" of Ezekiel 28.



Isaiah 30:1, Woe to the rebellious children, saith the Lord, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

3 Enoch was probably written by a Kabbalistic Rabbi in the 5th century, and it is also known as the book of the palaces, which implies a "city." Here is the Wikipedia information on 3 Enoch:

The Third Book of Enoch (Hebrew: ספר חנוך לר׳ ישמעאל כ׳׳ג‬, abbreviated as 3 Enoch)[1] is a Biblical apocryphal book in Hebrew. 3 Enoch purports to have been written in the 2nd century, but its origins can only be traced to the 5th century.[2] Other names for 3 Enoch include The Book of the Palaces, The Book of Rabbi Ishmael the High Priest and The Revelation of Metatron.

Most commonly, the Book of Enoch refers to 1 Enoch, which survived completely only in Ge'ez. There is also a Second Book of Enoch, which has survived only in Old Slavonic,[3][4] although Coptic fragments were also identified in 2009.[5] None of the three books are considered canonical scripture by the majority of Jewish or Christian bodies....

[Shawn Henry]

And there is no mentioning of this Enoch ever building a city.

That's very interesting, right? How does the highlight of his story not make it into the story?

Thanks for your post. I'm glad you are no longer being sent to Outer Darkness!

[Peeps]

And there is no mentioning of this Enoch ever building a city.

That's very interesting, right? How does the highlight of his story not make it into the story?

Thanks for your post. I'm glad you are no longer being sent to Outer Darkness!

Thanks! It's amazing what happens when one quits being emotionally triggered by polygamy! [combined with the changes of what covid19, Nelson's regime, etc., has done to the atmosphere of this forum, and to the CoJCoLDS in general, all positive changes, IMO. The dark, ugly underbelly being brought to the light for those who have eyes to see...]

Here is some more information about the Evil Enoch, son of Cain, and the city Cain built.
[quote=Peeps
In the Book of Jasher Chapter 9:37-38, says that part of Babel is still "aloft" in the sky.

37 And they ceased building the city and the tower; therefore he called that place Babel, for there the Lord confounded the Language of the whole earth; behold it was at the east of the land of Shinar.

38 And as to the tower which the sons of men built, the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up one third part thereof, and a fire also descended from heaven and burned another third, and the other third is left to this day, and it is of that part which was aloft, and its circumference is three days' walk.

This person believes the floating Tower of Babel will be thrown down to Earth when The New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven. He shows the science of how it could be possible to levitate a large city @~27:29-ish.

I believe this is Joseph's "City of Enoch."
I believe this city of Enoch was built by the evil Enoch, son of Cain, described as described in Genesis 4:

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

And a second witness from the Book of Jubilees chapter IV:

9. And Cain took ’Âwân his sister to be his wife and she bare him Enoch at
the close of the fourth jubilee. And in the first year of the first week of the fifth jubilee, houses were built
on the earth, and Cain built a city, and called its name after the name of his son Enoch.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jub/jub16.htm

Another witness is from LDS scripture.
The Book of Moses chapter V (Pearl of Great Price)

42 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bare Enoch, and he also begat many sons and daughters. And he builded a city, and he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.

43 And unto Enoch was born Irad, and other sons and daughters. And Irad begat Mahujael, and other sons and daughters. And Mahujael begat Methusael, and other sons and daughters. And Methusael begat Lamech.

44 And Lamech took unto himself two wives; the name of one being Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah.

45 And Adah bare Jabal; he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and they were keepers of cattle; and his brother's name was Jubal, who was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

46 And Zillah, she also bare Tubal Cain, an ​instructor of every artificer in brass and iron. And the sister of Tubal Cain was called Naamah.

Also the Book of Jasher chapter 1:
33 And at that time Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, from the place where he was, and he went moving and wandering in the land toward the east of Eden, he and all belonging to him.

34 And Cain knew his wife in those days, and she conceived and bare a son, and he called his name Enoch, saying, In that time the Lord began to give him rest and quiet in the earth.

35 And at that time Cain also began to build a city: and he built the city and he called the name of the city Enoch, according to the name of his son; for in those days the Lord had given him rest upon the earth, and he did not move about and wander as in the beginning.

36 And Irad was born to Enoch, and Irad begat Mechuyael and Mechuyael begat Methusael.

"Tubal Cain" is supposedly a password for Masons seeking the 3rd degree, and Joseph Smith was a Mason, so it would seem likely the city of Enoch that LDS scripture speaks of was likely this same city scripture says was built by Cain.

"Tubal Cain mastered working with metals and forging tools and was the first instructor of workers in those metals, affording him a place of honor and respect in Freemasonry as a forefather of all master craftsmen. His example as a teacher illustrates the value Masons place on sharing their knowledge with their brethren.

To complete the third degree, a Brother must learn to use the working tools of the Craft to fulfill the plans of the Divine Artist. He can only achieve the rank of Master Mason, living his life fully in the light of Freemasonry, by mastering the moral and philosophical lessons taught in the lodge by wise and experienced Brothers who are walking in the footsteps of Tubal Cain.

https://www.freemason.com/tubal-cain/
[/quote

[Wolfwoman]

Your questions may be answered in the link to Meridian magazine shared here: viewtopic.php?t=71979

[Shawn Henry]

Your questions may be answered in the link to Meridian magazine shared here: viewtopic.php?t=71979

I read the article. I don't think it helps either way. Thanks, though.

[Wolfwoman]

Your questions may be answered in the link to Meridian magazine shared here: viewtopic.php?t=71979

I read the article. I don't think it helps either way. Thanks, though.

It helped me to see that Joseph Smith was not the first one to come up with the idea that there was a city of Enoch that ascended into Heaven.

“ In addition, based on the recent discovery of the Manichaean Cosmology Painting—a thirteenth–fourteenth century Chinese wall hanging that includes illustrations of Enoch’s story—we now have some idea of the symbolic geography of Enoch’s travels, likely portraits of individuals to whom he preached (including Mahijah), and what seems to be a depiction of the cities of Zion that ascended to heaven.”

[ransomme]

I think that there is more to be learned about the pattern of Cain's seed and his brother seed mostly having the same names one or two generations apart. There must be a story behind that that we're not seeing. I have time interesting explanations for it though.

I also think that there is something to the narrative that the city represented rebellion and how man organizes, as opposed to the garden.

But then God uses the concept of a righteous City all throughout the Old testament all the way through the end time in the Book of Revelation that talks about the city of New Jerusalem descending from heaven.

The Bible project did am interesting series on The City, this is an abbreviated short on the topic. It's often very interesting to see what they glean from a Bible-only perspective.

[Atrasado]

In the Bible, Cain, who killed Abel, who made a pact with Satan and gloried in his brother's death and was called Master Mahan, had a son named Enoch. Cain built a city and named it after his son Enoch. Hence, the City of Enoch was built by the devil's right-hand man and was likely the center of operations for secret works of darkness. Lamech, the first polygamist in the Bible we know of, was a great grandson of this Enoch.

It should be noted there are two Enoch's amongst the pre-flood patriarchs. On Seth's side, the righteous side, about 4 generations later was born the Enoch we are familiar with. In the Bible it simply says he walked with God and was taken up by God. There is no mention of city.

Studying this is new to me, so I am asking not declaring, but are we to believe that the original city of Enoch was a capitol for the secret works of Master Mahan and that 4 generations later the Lord copied the name of the most wicked city yet to exist and then turned it into Zion?

Was God testing his saints by giving us questionable revelations through Joseph Smith to see if we would just blindly accept anything we are given?

Is it ever God's pattern to mirror or copy wickedness? Wouldn't you think God would want to pick a different name. Is this a test we failed?

Joseph himself when selecting the 1844 canon purposefully omitted these revelations as canon and by doing so, he misses any chance to fully testify they are of God. Indeed, God did not raise up any witnesses for these revelations as he did for the BoM. No angels appeared to any testifying these things were of God. Not a single witness.

The city of Enoch and its secret combinations coming down back to earth does dovetail with the great deception narrative of Aliens appearing in the skies, returning to save us from war by telling us of our true origins and giving us a one world religion.

For those not willing to question anything from Joseph, at least ask yourself why the BoM is the only work of Joseph that the Lord sent heavenly witnesses for. Why are there not 3 witnesses for the Pearl of Great Price?

A side question for TBMs: If the members of the translated city of Enoch have been taken up since before the flood and are likely in the millions, why haven't they already done all the ordinance work for the dead? What have they been doing for 5 thousand years? The hearts of these fathers don't need to be turned to their children?

I love the smell of wild conjecture in the morning.

Seriously, you spin yarn out of phantom threads but reject things with solid evidence. It's a wonder to behold

[Bronco73idi]

In the Bible, Cain, who killed Abel, who made a pact with Satan and gloried in his brother's death and was called Master Mahan, had a son named Enoch. Cain built a city and named it after his son Enoch. Hence, the City of Enoch was built by the devil's right-hand man and was likely the center of operations for secret works of darkness. Lamech, the first polygamist in the Bible we know of, was a great grandson of this Enoch.

It should be noted there are two Enoch's amongst the pre-flood patriarchs. On Seth's side, the righteous side, about 4 generations later was born the Enoch we are familiar with. In the Bible it simply says he walked with God and was taken up by God. There is no mention of city.

Studying this is new to me, so I am asking not declaring, but are we to believe that the original city of Enoch was a capitol for the secret works of Master Mahan and that 4 generations later the Lord copied the name of the most wicked city yet to exist and then turned it into Zion?

Was God testing his saints by giving us questionable revelations through Joseph Smith to see if we would just blindly accept anything we are given?

Is it ever God's pattern to mirror or copy wickedness? Wouldn't you think God would want to pick a different name. Is this a test we failed?

Joseph himself when selecting the 1844 canon purposefully omitted these revelations as canon and by doing so, he misses any chance to fully testify they are of God. Indeed, God did not raise up any witnesses for these revelations as he did for the BoM. No angels appeared to any testifying these things were of God. Not a single witness.

The city of Enoch and its secret combinations coming down back to earth does dovetail with the great deception narrative of Aliens appearing in the skies, returning to save us from war by telling us of our true origins and giving us a one world religion.

For those not willing to question anything from Joseph, at least ask yourself why the BoM is the only work of Joseph that the Lord sent heavenly witnesses for. Why are there not 3 witnesses for the Pearl of Great Price?

A side question for TBMs: If the members of the translated city of Enoch have been taken up since before the flood and are likely in the millions, why haven't they already done all the ordinance work for the dead? What have they been doing for 5 thousand years? The hearts of these fathers don't need to be turned to their children?

Why was Cain so inept that he needed Satan’s help to kill Able? They were both old enough to sacrifice their own livestock, right?

I wish people actually thought of the story that is right in front of them and not the one that the beast has interpreted for us……

[Shawn Henry]

what seems to be

I suppose I'm just skeptical when apologists say, "what seems to be".

For example, there are so many apologists who see temple symbology everywhere they look. "Oh, look, this building has a door and temples have doors, therefore this is proof of ancient temple work".

What the article doesn't go into is how or whether they are sure that the two stories don't overlap. It's interesting, the very next city we know of in the Bible, Babylon, they were trying to build up to heaven. So, Satan's side starts the city theme and then they start the city rising up theme.

Coincidence, I don't know, I'm just leering of the whole idea because JS chose to omit the Pearl of Great Price as scripture. There's not a single witness for it, never mind 3.

[Shawn Henry]

Seriously, you spin yarn out of phantom threads but reject things with solid evidence. It's a wonder to behold

I listed evidence. You listed no evidence, you just ran your mouth.

So, if you have "solid evidence", let's hear it. Also, please tell us, solid evidence for what, exactly.

[Bronco73idi]

Seriously, you spin yarn out of phantom threads but reject things with solid evidence. It's a wonder to behold

I listed evidence. You listed no evidence, you just ran your mouth.

So, if you have "solid evidence", let's hear it. Also, please tell us, solid evidence for what, exactly.

Your foundation is based on Cain made a pact with Satan so that he can kill Able.

A patriarch pre flood was about 60 years old per the book of Genesis. So all we know is that they were not a lad like Haggar’s son Ishmael who was over 13 years old and they were not a patriarch or 60 years old.

So why can a 20-40 year old kill his brother without the help of Satan?

Your foundation is sand……

[FrankOne]

Studying this is new to me, so I am asking not declaring, but are we to believe that the original city of Enoch was a capitol for the secret works of Master Mahan and that 4 generations later the Lord copied the name of the most wicked city yet to exist and then turned it into Zion?



The city of Enoch and its secret combinations coming down back to earth does dovetail with the great deception narrative of Aliens appearing in the skies, returning to save us from war by telling us of our true origins and giving us a one world religion.

I'm not much of a history buff on many subjects.

So, JS was the only one to introduce the idea that the City of Enoch was taken up with Enoch? Any other historical records other than those provided by JS?

As I've stated before, I now find it very intriguing that the book of Jasher completely destroys this idea when Enoch says to the people that there is no way that he can take them with him. I can't find my book here to type out the quote, sorry. and...apparently there are different versions of the book of Jasher online.

Your fringe conclusions/theories are always entertaining and thought provoking.

hu nose?

Not to derail, but... here's a theory that I thought was bizarre which I came up with umpteen years ago which now has been tossed around by many:

The Son of Man and Christ are two distinct individuals. The Being coming back in the flesh to usher in the millennium is the Son of Man, not "The Christ". References made by Christ in the NT refer to the coming Son of Man in third person. I'm not implying that the Son of Man is evil by any stretch of the imagination but that he is a physical instrument of JHVH or even JHVH himself. IMO, The Christ is an incomprehensible being that isn't confined to a body at all.

Becoming a Christ is a quantum leap past being a Son of Man.

[Bronco73idi]

Studying this is new to me, so I am asking not declaring, but are we to believe that the original city of Enoch was a capitol for the secret works of Master Mahan and that 4 generations later the Lord copied the name of the most wicked city yet to exist and then turned it into Zion?



The city of Enoch and its secret combinations coming down back to earth does dovetail with the great deception narrative of Aliens appearing in the skies, returning to save us from war by telling us of our true origins and giving us a one world religion.

I'm not much of a history buff on many subjects.

So, JS was the only one to introduce the idea that the City of Enoch was taken up with Enoch? Any other historical records other than those provided by JS?

As I've stated before, I now find it very intriguing that the book of Jasher completely destroys this idea when Enoch says to the people that there is no way that he can take them with him. I can't find my book here to type out the quote, sorry. and...apparently there are different versions of the book of Jasher online.

Your fringe conclusions/theories are always entertaining and thought provoking.

hu nose?

Not to derail, but... here's a theory that I thought was bizarre which I came up with umpteen years ago which now has been tossed around by many:

The Son of Man and Christ are two distinct individuals. The Being coming back in the flesh to usher in the millennium is the Son of Man, not "The Christ". References made by Christ in the NT refer to the coming Son of Man in third person. I'm not implying that the Son of Man is evil by any stretch of the imagination but that he is a physical instrument of JHVH or even JHVH himself. IMO, The Christ is an incomprehensible being that isn't confined to a body at all.

Becoming a Christ is a quantum leap past being a Son of Man.

If we believe that the gospel of Thomas is true, it was discovered in Egypt in 1945 then we know the father was born on this earth and not born of woman. The son of man was born of woman but also of spirit, Christ.

Thomas 15
Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

We also have Luke 7:28, most important prophet born on this earth of woman is Joh the Baptist. So either Jesus is below him or The Christ, above him. Jesus was born of woman.

[FrankOne]

Studying this is new to me, so I am asking not declaring, but are we to believe that the original city of Enoch was a capitol for the secret works of Master Mahan and that 4 generations later the Lord copied the name of the most wicked city yet to exist and then turned it into Zion?



The city of Enoch and its secret combinations coming down back to earth does dovetail with the great deception narrative of Aliens appearing in the skies, returning to save us from war by telling us of our true origins and giving us a one world religion.

I'm not much of a history buff on many subjects.

So, JS was the only one to introduce the idea that the City of Enoch was taken up with Enoch? Any other historical records other than those provided by JS?

As I've stated before, I now find it very intriguing that the book of Jasher completely destroys this idea when Enoch says to the people that there is no way that he can take them with him. I can't find my book here to type out the quote, sorry. and...apparently there are different versions of the book of Jasher online.

Your fringe conclusions/theories are always entertaining and thought provoking.

hu nose?

Not to derail, but... here's a theory that I thought was bizarre which I came up with umpteen years ago which now has been tossed around by many:

The Son of Man and Christ are two distinct individuals. The Being coming back in the flesh to usher in the millennium is the Son of Man, not "The Christ". References made by Christ in the NT refer to the coming Son of Man in third person. I'm not implying that the Son of Man is evil by any stretch of the imagination but that he is a physical instrument of JHVH or even JHVH himself. IMO, The Christ is an incomprehensible being that isn't confined to a body at all.

Becoming a Christ is a quantum leap past being a Son of Man.

If we believe that the gospel of Thomas is true, it was discovered in Egypt in 1945 then we know the father was born on this earth and not born of woman. The son of man was born of woman but also of spirit, Christ.

Thomas 15
Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

We also have Luke 7:28, most important prophet born on this earth of woman is Joh the Baptist. So either Jesus is below him or The Christ, above him. Jesus was born of woman.

interesting points. I looked up the scripture as well.

I've studied such things in Gnosticism as well as fringe texts which flatly state that The Christ" was never hung on the cross. The idea is that it was not possible for that to occur because he was one with the Father and for him to be put on the cross would be more than blasphemy, ...just impossible.

So if the Son of Man is not "The Christ", was The Christ ever actually on earth as a man?
Now thinking this through in different ways, I think I can glean what is going on in regards to this subject.

My opinion now: Jesus had the spirit of The Christ within him so powerfully that he could be guided constantly, in every thought and deed. His words were likely coming from the mind of Christ as well as the choices he made.

the scripture is quite enigmatic:

'For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.'

Who is referred to as the "he" that is "least"? And... whoever he is referring to, perhaps it's anyone that has achieved that position, is actually greater than the greatest prophet, JTB.

for me, it implies that a Prophet is a very selective word, very precise. Also, whoever is "the least" is very precise. The least means the very least, at the the furthest extreme of the spectrum.

As Buddha said: "I am nothing".

[Shawn Henry]

So why can a 20-40 year old kill his brother without the help of Satan?

Who cares? It has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is about the two cities of Enoch.

[FrankOne]

So why can a 20-40 year old kill his brother without the help of Satan?

Who cares? It has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is about the two cities of Enoch.

from another thread of Enoch

I am cutting and pasting this post I made there very recently .

I don't think it's new, but the book of Jasher (my copy 1954) which appears to have been originally translated from Hebrew in 1613, also gives detail of Enoch's sojourns.

I can't say which is more authoritative, The Book of Giants or this book.

I just found this edition of my own book online and this link goes to the chapter on Enoch. https://sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/3.htm

What is interesting is that when Enoch went to leave, he did not "take them with him". He instructed them to stay and not try to follow. He told them "you may die" trying to follow me. Enoch then went on a 6 day journey as he told them again, each day, do not follow. Some continued to follow anyway. He told them each day to stop following him. Some continued to follow him. Kings tried to find out what happened to them and were unsuccessful.

33 And the second day he said to them, Return home to your tents, why will you go? perhaps you may die; and some of them went from him, and those that remained went with him six day's journey; and Enoch said to them every day, Return to your tents, lest you may die; but they were not willing to return, and they went with him

I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened, but I do read things that interest me.

This is what interests me: The spiritual development of Enoch.

17 And it was in the year of Adam's death which was the two hundred and forty-third year of the reign of Enoch, in that time Enoch resolved to separate himself from the sons of men and to secret himself as at first in order to serve the Lord.

18 And Enoch did so, but did not entirely secret himself from them, but kept away from the sons of men three days and then went to them for one day.

19 And during the three days that he was in his chamber, he prayed to, and praised the Lord his God, and the day on which he went and appeared to his subjects he taught them the ways of the Lord, and all they asked him about the Lord he told them.

20 And he did in this manner for many years, and he afterward concealed himself for six days, and appeared to his people one day in seven; and after that once in a month, and then once in a year, until all the kings, princes and sons of men sought for him, and desired again to see the face of Enoch, and to hear his word; but they could not, as all the sons of men were greatly afraid of Enoch, and they feared to approach him on account of the Godlike awe that was seated upon his countenance; therefore no man could look at him, fearing he might be punished and die.

I find it implausible that the entire 'city' had even come near the spiritual station of Enoch when he left this world. Hence, why he told them, 'do not follow me.'

I'm not trying to discount JS's works because it could be that some of them survived and went with him, but I doubt they went to the same destination.

[Shawn Henry]

I find it implausible that the entire 'city' had even come near the spiritual station of Enoch when he left this world. Hence, why he told them, 'do not follow me.'

I'm not trying to discount JS's works because it could be that some of them survived and went with him, but I doubt they went to the same destination.

I'm doubting it too.

If he told them that he can't take them with him, then the book of Jasher contradicts the JS account, while still being in line with the biblical account.

[Bronco73idi]

I'm not much of a history buff on many subjects.

So, JS was the only one to introduce the idea that the City of Enoch was taken up with Enoch? Any other historical records other than those provided by JS?

As I've stated before, I now find it very intriguing that the book of Jasher completely destroys this idea when Enoch says to the people that there is no way that he can take them with him. I can't find my book here to type out the quote, sorry. and...apparently there are different versions of the book of Jasher online.

Your fringe conclusions/theories are always entertaining and thought provoking.

hu nose?

Not to derail, but... here's a theory that I thought was bizarre which I came up with umpteen years ago which now has been tossed around by many:

The Son of Man and Christ are two distinct individuals. The Being coming back in the flesh to usher in the millennium is the Son of Man, not "The Christ". References made by Christ in the NT refer to the coming Son of Man in third person. I'm not implying that the Son of Man is evil by any stretch of the imagination but that he is a physical instrument of JHVH or even JHVH himself. IMO, The Christ is an incomprehensible being that isn't confined to a body at all.

Becoming a Christ is a quantum leap past being a Son of Man.

If we believe that the gospel of Thomas is true, it was discovered in Egypt in 1945 then we know the father was born on this earth and not born of woman. The son of man was born of woman but also of spirit, Christ.

Thomas 15
Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

We also have Luke 7:28, most important prophet born on this earth of woman is Joh the Baptist. So either Jesus is below him or The Christ, above him. Jesus was born of woman.

interesting points. I looked up the scripture as well.

I've studied such things in Gnosticism as well as fringe texts which flatly state that The Christ" was never hung on the cross. The idea is that it was not possible for that to occur because he was one with the Father and for him to be put on the cross would be more than blasphemy, ...just impossible.

So if the Son of Man is not "The Christ", was The Christ ever actually on earth as a man?
Now thinking this through in different ways, I think I can glean what is going on in regards to this subject.

My opinion now: Jesus had the spirit of The Christ within him so powerfully that he could be guided constantly, in every thought and deed. His words were likely coming from the mind of Christ as well as the choices he made.

the scripture is quite enigmatic:

'For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.'

Who is referred to as the "he" that is "least"? And... whoever he is referring to, perhaps it's anyone that has achieved that position, is actually greater than the greatest prophet, JTB.

for me, it implies that a Prophet is a very selective word, very precise. Also, whoever is "the least" is very precise. The least means the very least, at the the furthest extreme of the spectrum.

As Buddha said: "I am nothing".

The least in his father’s kingdom, before the resurrection of the Lord, that would mean all the ones in the kingdom have already made it to his father’s kingdom and will not be born of woman in this world.

[Bronco73idi]

So why can a 20-40 year old kill his brother without the help of Satan?

Who cares? It has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is about the two cities of Enoch.

I read Gen 4 and wonder why Cain’s city of Enoch is only evil to you? What is the reference of evil? Worse than Sodom, ie no one will listen or repent?

Are we not as bad as before the flood now? If David built a city after he had Uriah killed would that city be only sin to you?

I was looking for a reference about JS saying that Enoch taught to the people and caused them to repent, ie the city of Enoch/Zion could be the same city that Cain made.

I found this gem instead.

“The idea of Melchizedek (if not his city with him) being taken up into heaven is not unknown in the ancient literature. Jim Davila has noted that in 2 Enoch (71–72) we find the unusual tale of Melchizedek being “taken away to paradise during the Flood so that he may serve later as a high priest.”3 Additionally, in the Qumran texts known as 11QMelchizedek and the Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice, Melchizedek appears to be depicted as a high priest who serves in the heavenly temple.4 Davila describes the trajectory of the figure of Melchizedek in ancient literature as moving “from Melchizedek the priest-king to Melchizedek the god.”5

This is the trajectory that Joseph Smith elaborates in his grand revelation on the kingdoms of heaven recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 76. Regarding those who are destined for celestial glory, it says, “They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God” (D&C 76:55–58).“

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/enoc ... to-heaven/

[Bronco73idi]

Hence, the City of Enoch was built by the devil's right-hand man and was likely the center of operations for secret works of darkness. Lamech, the first polygamist in the Bible we know of, was a great grandson of this Enoch.

You are saying Adam, the only man born of the spirit or in other words not born of woman (Luke 7:28), was to inept and weak to maintain his family as the sole patriarch.

Maybe you think he completely abandoned that side of the family?

With this idea, abandoning Cain and his offspring, does that damn Noah? He let his son Ham marry that side of the family. Should he have not let them on the boat? The boat was full of sin?

Personally, I like to work my interpretations out.

[Shawn Henry]

You are saying Adam, the only man born of the spirit or in other words not born of woman (Luke 7:28), was to inept and weak to maintain his family as the sole patriarch.

Maybe you think he completely abandoned that side of the family?

With this idea, abandoning Cain and his offspring, does that damn Noah? He let his son Ham marry that side of the family. Should he have not let them on the boat? The boat was full of sin?

Personally, I like to work my interpretations out.

I'm not saying or implying anything about Adam. I'm sure he preached, but that doesn't mean he was listened to. We don't know anything about the City of Enoch other than Cain established it. It stands to reason that he built it around the secret works that Satan taught him.

[Wolfwoman]

I appreciate this thread because it has given me something new to study. I never knew the city of Enoch or Zion was a thing particular to Mormonism.

Whether it was the same city of Enoch or not, I don’t know that it matters. They were all wicked and in need of repentance. Yes, even according to the Bible, everyone was wicked and that’s why there was a great flood and only Noah and his family survived.

From the LDS scriptures, Moses 6:
26 And it came to pass that Enoch journeyed in the land, among the people; and as he journeyed, the Spirit of God descended out of heaven, and abode upon him.

27 And he heard a voice from heaven, saying: Enoch, my son, prophesy unto this people, and say unto them—Repent, for thus saith the Lord: I am angry with this people, and my fierce anger is kindled against them; for their hearts have waxed hard, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes cannot see afar off;

28 And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have denied me, and have sought their own counsels in the dark; and in their own abominations have they devised murder, and have not kept the commandments, which I gave unto their father, Adam.

29 Wherefore, they have foresworn themselves, and, by their oaths, they have brought upon themselves death; and a hell I have prepared for them, if they repent not;


Is there somewhere in our Scriptures where it says “city of Enoch”? Because in the Pearl of Great Price it is only called Zion and The City of Holiness.

Actually according to the Pearl of Great Price, Enoch did build the city. So according to my belief, it would be an entirely different city than the original city of Enoch.

19 And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion