Why People Are Leaving The LDS Church

[Reluctant Watchman]

There are no witnesses provided by God for any other work than the BoM.

I'm amazed at how narrow you've set your standard for God's word.

So tell me where the BOM mentions receiving handshakes and such in a temple? Please fill me in on where the BOM talks about eternal marriage in a temple. There are many thing that we believe to be true which arent mentioned in the BOM.

There are also many truths outside of the BoM. Sometimes people hold to the belief that if it isn’t specifically outline in the BoM, that certain ideas and principles aren’t true. These were good people for the most part, sometimes they did really bad things. They were all human.

[onefour1]

The doctrine of 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom has gone the way of all the earth - with the cancelation of the book "Mormon Doctrine" by BRM, in 2010 - that doctrine has been on the decline to where it's now no longer taught.

False doctrine usually has a short life span - Truth is Eternal

To see how foolish "3 degrees in the CK" is just follow the logic of - become one with God and live in with him only to become divided into 3 possible locations but still be one with Him. It's a messed up as the trinity doctrine - 3 in 1 and yet still 3 or is it . I just don't know.

Do you believe that there are degrees though, as to how we progress? Maybe the NT and D&C teaching of degrees of glory didn't just mean 3, but was meant to signify as many degrees as God's creations needed.

The place where God dwells it is compared to the sun - the sun is one glory with an incomprehensible glory (I don't think Telestial beings have the capacity to comprehend Celestial glory or doctrine, but, because of pride they think they do or can. ( an inherent problem as we are all Telestial beings.

With God being all-powerful and has all glory - where can you or how do you add anything onto that?

The NT and D&C teachings of different glories are referring to the Telestial - which has many divisions - as many as the stars in the heavens and the Terrestrial kingdom which is compared with the moon - which is one glory but it is way ahead of the Telestial in glory, knowledge and power. I don't think there needs to be different levels here or these individuals don't vary enough to warrant additional levels.

The multiple levels in the CK doctrine was never taught by JS. In fact it was never taught in the church until 1921 when Melvin J Ballard gave a talk and slipped up and said Celestial Kingdom instead of *Celestial Glory and we were off to the races with a new doctrine. BRM got a hold of it and spread it around when he edited his FIL book "Doctrines of Salvation" and took it to the next level with his book "Mormon Doctrine".

* Celestial Glory as used in D&C 131 means HEAVEN - that's it. So if we read it properly it says - In HEAVEN there are 3 different heavens or degrees - meaning: Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial. And in order to get to the highest - the Celestial - a man must ...

Doctrine and Covenants 131:1-4
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

[Niemand]

Partly, but there are a number of other reasons. One of them is simple, i.e. it requires a lot of work and not much reward (spiritual or otherwise. )

Not everyone, including not all Latter-day Saints, want celestial kingdom for eternity. When my wife was on a mission in England, a man who appeared very keen on joining the Church decided against doing so when he was told that he would be expected to have his wife for eternity. Others do not want to suffer thru raising children any longer, or the other responsibilities of family relationships. Apparently, the celestial kingdom is not attractive to many people.

That's a fair point. When I spoke to the missionaries I pointed out that my mother and her mother didn't get on really, and that neither me nor my grandmother ever bonded.

[TheDuke]

Do you believe that there are degrees though, as to how we progress? Maybe the NT and D&C teaching of degrees of glory didn't just mean 3, but was meant to signify as many degrees as God's creations needed.

I think you are on to something here that is quite significant in a much, much larger context than we understand. While I don't have all the details and answers, I have been shown a few things of late about eternal progression. And, interestingly enough D&C 88 lays the ground work for a vast range of kingdoms. It seems at first to contradict 76, but with enough study and prayer you can see the two have different perspectives. Note: it was the first revelation on post-resurrection rewards and before the teachings came of pre-mortality in PoGP. (line upon line).

76 discusses the kingdoms that are most significant to the "saints", that is those trying to accept Christ (successfully or not) and those that really blow it (SoP). so, it is like a more detailed discussion from a single perspective and location. BTW carefully read all of 76, most LDS discussions end before the later verses (98'ish) that add to the earlier understanding of telestial, and for good reason).

88 came next giving a broader understanding of post-resurrection rewards (about a year later). It has a broader context as we can see.

Abraham and Moses in PoGP came next adding pre-mortal aspects which allows a better eternal perspective than just born physically here then move on. (See Stapley's previously posted diagrams to see a more accurate representation of Joseph's comprehension (or at least teachings) from 1829 to 1844.

Lastly 131 adds some concepts of discussion for progress within the celestial realm. This is the concept of exaltation and what Joseph was working on when he died and was trying to put together the ordinations of exaltation, we ended up with washings, anointings, endowment of power, and marriage (second anointing perhaps????) but I don't think Joseph was happy with what he had yet when he died.

A deeper look at 88 shows that this earth experience is broader than 76 discusses which seems about "children of god". It adds the concepts of "probation" for those not yet literal offspring of god that are vying to become such. See verses 24 and 32 which clearly show that not all humans in their probation lived with god prior to coming here, while some did, mixture as discussed in Abraham 3 (see John Pratt's tutorial for a start). Later it comes to the point you mentioned above, verses 36-44 where it mentions many kingdoms, in fact, a broad range of kingdoms, in fact, a range so broad there is no top and no bottom to their sets of laws. Then verses 51-61 give a parable. This parable shows eternal progression (and if you like a broad intro to something akin to MMP). Where (intelligences) progress at their own pace in their own time, none forced, but all with a planned time to visit god.

Having said that, what we see in summary is that there is progression from a non-offspring of god that is worthy of probation to a sequence of glories for the children of god (Christ) for salvation. Then a sequence of progression for the literal offspring of god (father & mother) in the celestial. It then eludes to many lower kingdoms that intelligences progress through to get to these higher kingdoms. In 88 we see the concepts of good-and-evil not applying but more the concepts of more and less progression (hence no SoP talk or punishment, etc...) while 76 talks of progression for those already in the pipeline where failure is an option.

In over revelations Joseph seems to say that there are 3 types or classes of physical bodies, glories, temperatures, materials, whatever (celestial, terrestrial, telestial). I see (IMO) that his 3 glories are based on these differing body types. Each body type or glory, etc.. has multiple levels of progression or power or glory within them. Telestial as numerous and varied as the stars, terrestrial only mentions one however, and celestial three. So many glories but three distinct groups.

Stapley and Brian Hales and co, have a discussion on BCC (link posted here somewhere) that discusses if the 3 levels in the celestial are places or just relative levels of progression, the later being current church understanding, which was the focus of the few posts above this one.

[Shawn Henry]

There are no witnesses provided by God for any other work than the BoM.

I'm amazed at how narrow you've set your standard for God's word.

It's not my standard. It is his standard. He is the one who said his word will come with 2 or 3 witnesses and I can't deny what he has said.

[Reluctant Watchman]

There are no witnesses provided by God for any other work than the BoM.

I'm amazed at how narrow you've set your standard for God's word.

It's not my standard. It is his standard. He is the one who said his word will come with 2 or 3 witnesses and I can't deny what he has said.

You certainly have an interesting perspective. I'll give you that.

[Chip]

When will the leadership have their introspective moment? Their long-awaited come-to-Jesus meeting? Will they initiate it, or will the Lord?

are-we-the-baddies-bad.gif (738.31 KiB) Viewed 192 times

[Ymarsakar]

When will the leadership have their introspective moment? Their long-awaited come-to-Jesus meeting? Will they initiate it, or will the Lord?

are-we-the-baddies-bad.gif

Seems tied to america and donald 2024.

Religion is a big issue that the divine counsel needs to resolve. Look at 2020. That was how health care was revealed. Religion will also be a big season finale reveal. Probably ontop of ufos visible and ufo wars threatened by darl state.

Instead of trying tp fix mormonism. The divine counsel of elphim and gods would be better to address this from a top down broad spectrum level. Shock all religions at once. Same with fauci health doctor waxxines.

Who trusts death doctors now vs 2019?

[Niemand]

When will the leadership have their introspective moment? Their long-awaited come-to-Jesus meeting? Will they initiate it, or will the Lord?

are-we-the-baddies-bad.gif

They never apologise, they just backtrack.

[Good & Global]

In answer to why are people leaving the church - here is a good example. Perhaps some figured out they did not need the church to get the benefits of what church was giving to them that made them stay in the first place.

Many mormons actually loved covid lockdowns. They had all the benefits with none of the added BS.

At the very start of the covid lockdowns we did church at home, with a few friends, and it was actually kind of nice. It honestly felt like the way church was supposed to be.
Going back it was obvious that there was so much control when their really didn't need to be.

Why should you "need" the Bishop's permission to do sacrament yourself?
Why should you "need" the Bishop's permission to minister to someone who is sick?
Why should you "need" the Bishop's permission to exercise the priesthood at all?

This is actually why I think a lot of people left the church after covid and why the immediate response was to get them all back in with draconian covid measures. They were at risk of losing tithe payers if people figured out they could feel all the benefits of chuch by worshipping Christ in their families, by themselves or with a small network of other families. This was all that was worthy about church to begin with. And how much more special is your message compared to the actual words of Christ?

Basically people had been paying for access up until that point. Once they realized that they could get free or less costly access elsewhere they were gone.

Of course, attending church under draconian measures made it worse for those who saw even more overt control through the supposed prophetic covid crisis response.

viewtopic.php?t=72008

[JohnnyL]

Partly, but there are a number of other reasons. One of them is simple, i.e. it requires a lot of work and not much reward (spiritual or otherwise. )

Not everyone, including not all Latter-day Saints, want celestial kingdom for eternity. When my wife was on a mission in England, a man who appeared very keen on joining the Church decided against doing so when he was told that he would be expected to have his wife for eternity. Others do not want to suffer thru raising children any longer, or the other responsibilities of family relationships. Apparently, the celestial kingdom is not attractive to many people.

Not if we look at it with temporal eyes and hearts... or like a place like here.

[JohnnyL]

In answer to why are people leaving the church - here is a good example. Perhaps some figured out they did not need the church to get the benefits of what church was giving to them that made them stay in the first place.

Many mormons actually loved covid lockdowns. They had all the benefits with none of the added BS.

At the very start of the covid lockdowns we did church at home, with a few friends, and it was actually kind of nice. It honestly felt like the way church was supposed to be.
Going back it was obvious that there was so much control when their really didn't need to be.

Why should you "need" the Bishop's permission to do sacrament yourself?
Why should you "need" the Bishop's permission to minister to someone who is sick?
Why should you "need" the Bishop's permission to exercise the priesthood at all?

This is actually why I think a lot of people left the church after covid and why the immediate response was to get them all back in with draconian covid measures. They were at risk of losing tithe payers if people figured out they could feel all the benefits of chuch by worshipping Christ in their families, by themselves or with a small network of other families. This was all that was worthy about church to begin with. And how much more special is your message compared to the actual words of Christ?

Basically people had been paying for access up until that point. Once they realized that they could get free or less costly access elsewhere they were gone.

Of course, attending church under draconian measures made it worse for those who saw even more overt control through the supposed prophetic covid crisis response.

viewtopic.php?t=72008

You got us back on topic, thank you! 3-4 pages of irrelevant posts (to the thread's topic) were a lot to skim through...

[Bjǫrnúlfr]

People leave the LDS church because they have come to consider the LDS church to be their enemy for variety of reasons.