Why People Are Leaving The LDS Church

[Shawn Henry]

All starting points can have end points.

Are you saying that matter or spirit returns to its original state? Even after progression or ascension?

Not at all. I'm just saying that, by definition, when you do something, you can undo it.

Creating something does not lock you into it. If you create a car, it increases your options. You can now drive, but you can still walk, or you can even destroy your car.

[Reluctant Watchman]

All starting points can have end points.

Are you saying that matter or spirit returns to its original state? Even after progression or ascension?

Not at all. I'm just saying that, by definition, when you do something, you can undo it.

Creating something does not lock you into it. If you create a car, it increases your options. You can now drive, but you can still walk, or you can even destroy your car.

This could also mean that a spirit person could also be unorganized. For example, could God choose to unorganized the spirit-matter of Satan? Sure, why not. Give that matter a new opportunity to grow and progress.

Hooray for the land of hypotheticals.

[Telavian]

I don't know why we have a hard time envisioning God being above gender or more than gender. Being tethered down is somehow comforting.

It seems it is human nature to remake God in our own image.
Throughout history we have seen people of all societies make their God's anthropomorphic.

Instead of believing in a God that is outside of the realm of our understanding, then we make God limited to our understanding to make ourselves feel better.

[Shawn Henry]

Are you saying that matter or spirit returns to its original state? Even after progression or ascension?

Not at all. I'm just saying that, by definition, when you do something, you can undo it.

Creating something does not lock you into it. If you create a car, it increases your options. You can now drive, but you can still walk, or you can even destroy your car.

This could also mean that a spirit person could also be unorganized. For example, could God choose to unorganized the spirit-matter of Satan? Sure, why not. Give that matter a new opportunity to grow and progress.

Hooray for the land of hypotheticals.

You're missing the point. The point is, creation is merely a tool to aid the person or persons behind the creation.

Creating a tool does not come with the imaginary prerequisite that you always have to use that tool or that a better tool can't be created.

[Ymarsakar]

The spirit, in its basic form, is an eternal baby. No personality, no character, no desires, nothing it likes or dislikes.

How "basic" are you taking us here? Even the spirits of worms have likes and dislikes. They like to eat dirt and poop.

That is the physicality you are referring to. It is not eternal, one of the traits of spirit.

Spirit creates matter, remember. But spirit is not matter. Spirit's polarization may create what we see as gender, but spirit does not need gender. Even though it does not need gender, eternal progression may adopt a kind of polarization as gender. Again translations and paradoxes.

The spirits of worms are very low in consciousness, and they tend to be like a distributed consciousness much like our servers are.

This connects to whether God is outside or inside. Is all the universe part of God or from where does the life essence come from? These are all questions the human species must answer on its own. They can get answers from me and others, of course, but they cannot pass the tests just by copying me.

Without the internal communication with their personal god, they won't figure it out using their human education and minds.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Not at all. I'm just saying that, by definition, when you do something, you can undo it.

Creating something does not lock you into it. If you create a car, it increases your options. You can now drive, but you can still walk, or you can even destroy your car.

This could also mean that a spirit person could also be unorganized. For example, could God choose to unorganized the spirit-matter of Satan? Sure, why not. Give that matter a new opportunity to grow and progress.

Hooray for the land of hypotheticals.

You're missing the point. The point is, creation is merely a tool to aid the person or persons behind the creation.

Creating a tool does not come with the imaginary prerequisite that you always have to use that tool or that a better tool can't be created.

I'm sure there are lots of "tools" at the disposal of our heavenly parents.

[onefour1]

We are the literal offspring of God the Father and through the process of procreation He and our Mother in Heaven have the continuation of the seeds and bring together our self-existent intelligences with spirit matter to give birth to our spirits.

That is indeed what our learned precepts have taught us, but there is no heavenly mother in scripture, nor will find anything about spirits being "birthed". It's a leftover precept from the polygamist dynastic empire of 1 man and his 50 wives having physical sex to have spiritual babies to populate their own worlds.

If God created us male and female, what were we before that point. Creation is a starting point. All starting points can have end points.

So, if God created us male and female, by definition, we were not initially male and female.

According to scripture, our intelligence and matter, which are both eternal can be combined to eternally be together. Spirit birth and the resurrection are proof that they don't start out together but can become an eternal union to continue forever and ever.

[Libertas Est Salus]

I realize my contempt for an idea doesn't make it false, but I have to say that the idea of a genderless god is depressing to me. I hope that's not the true nature of my Heavenly Father, and I genuinely suspect it's not.

You're an intelligence. Intelligences don't start off with genitals, those are a physical construct. Intelligences have characteristics and attributes. All intelligences can learn any and all attributes, as they see fit to work on them. Any intelligence that is a higher intelligence would naturally want to learn and master all characteristics and attributes.

You're taking your current understanding of the flesh and superimposing that over all things spiritual. You can currently only see a gender division, so therefore, that is the only lens through which you can see the heavenly.

Nobody said God is genderless. I have said he is above or beyond gender, meaning he is more than gender. Do you really think God has not mastered all the attributes of both genders? Do you really think he is lacking?

I agree that I am an intelligence. And I can't say I know whether mere intelligences are categorized as male and female, or having genitals. You may be right there. Or you may be wrong. I suppose there's also a possibility of intelligences being male and female, without genitals, but then upon creation into spirits the spirits—being male and female—have genitals. You could argue otherwise, which could be true. But you can't say for sure one way or the other.

I also agree with your point that I'm looking at things through my current understanding. But I don't think mortality is so divorced from divine nature as to render our present view entirely useless in framing our understanding and appreciation of who and what God is and who or what we are and may become.

I don't want to unfairly characterize your view, as I'm confident it's far more in-depth than I realize, but I'm just being sincere when I say that it strikes me as closer to a Nicene view than the one I was raised to believe. I don't think anyone in this debate has a slam-dunk, airtight argument for their position. But again, I just go back to feeling really disappointed when I ponder the idea that God could be so nebulous a being or force that I can't even characterize him (?) as having or being confined to a gender.

I clearly need to up my game as far as becoming acquainted with God, then, hopefully, I'd have the answer on who and what God is.

[onefour1]

I would think that if God is a male who is eternally married to a female God, and if they are one, then they would both understand each others thoughts, feelings, desires, and everything about each other perfectly and thus they become one and are all knowing of the opposite sex. Not to mention that God knows the thoughts and intents of us all.

Doctrine and Covenants 6:16
16 Yea, I tell thee, that thou mayest know that there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart.

[Shawn Henry]

According to scripture, our intelligence and matter, which are both eternal can be combined to eternally be together. Spirit birth and the resurrection are proof that they don't start out together but can become an eternal union to continue forever and ever.

You can make my F-150 out of eternal parts, that doesn't mean I'm stuck driving it eternally.

[Silver Pie]

I would think that if God is a male who is eternally married to a female God, and if they are one, then they would both understand each others thoughts, feelings, desires, and everything about each other perfectly and thus they become one and are all knowing of the opposite sex. Not to mention that God knows the thoughts and intents of us all.

Doctrine and Covenants 6:16
16 Yea, I tell thee, that thou mayest know that there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart.

There's a reason you can't become a God unless you're married. Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and all that. Eternal increase.

Oh, wait, is that even taught anymore? It was taught a lot from Joseph Smith through who? Hinckley? Kimball?

[Lineman1012]

According to scripture, our intelligence and matter, which are both eternal can be combined to eternally be together. Spirit birth and the resurrection are proof that they don't start out together but can become an eternal union to continue forever and ever.

You can make my F-150 out of eternal parts, that doesn't mean I'm stuck driving it eternally.

If you're lucky you'll get up graded to an F-350

[Lineman1012]

I would think that if God is a male who is eternally married to a female God, and if they are one, then they would both understand each others thoughts, feelings, desires, and everything about each other perfectly and thus they become one and are all knowing of the opposite sex. Not to mention that God knows the thoughts and intents of us all.

Doctrine and Covenants 6:16
16 Yea, I tell thee, that thou mayest know that there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart.

There's a reason you can't become a God unless you're married. Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and all that. Eternal increase.

Oh, wait, is that even taught anymore? It was taught a lot from Joseph Smith through who? Hinckley? Kimball?

The doctrine of 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom has gone the way of all the earth - with the cancelation of the book "Mormon Doctrine" by BRM, in 2010 - that doctrine has been on the decline to where it's now no longer taught.

False doctrine usually has a short life span - Truth is Eternal

To see how foolish "3 degrees in the CK" is just follow the logic of - become one with God and live in with him only to become divided into 3 possible locations but still be one with Him. It's a messed up as the trinity doctrine - 3 in 1 and yet still 3 or is it . I just don't know.

[TheDuke]

I would think that if God is a male who is eternally married to a female God, and if they are one, then they would both understand each others thoughts, feelings, desires, and everything about each other perfectly and thus they become one and are all knowing of the opposite sex. Not to mention that God knows the thoughts and intents of us all.

Doctrine and Covenants 6:16
16 Yea, I tell thee, that thou mayest know that there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart.

There's a reason you can't become a God unless you're married. Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and all that. Eternal increase.

Oh, wait, is that even taught anymore? It was taught a lot from Joseph Smith through who? Hinckley? Kimball?

The doctrine of 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom has gone the way of all the earth - with the cancelation of the book "Mormon Doctrine" by BRM, in 2010 - that doctrine has been on the decline to where it's now no longer taught.

False doctrine usually has a short life span - Truth is Eternal

To see how foolish "3 degrees in the CK" is just follow the logic of - become one with God and live in with him only to become divided into 3 possible locations but still be one with Him. It's a messed up as the trinity doctrine - 3 in 1 and yet still 3 or is it . I just don't know.

The confusion comes in that there are not multiple places (kingdoms, etc...) in the celestial, but there are different levels of progression or growth. three are identified, actually 4 counting the concept of pre-citizenship or spirit children (celestial children). The idea of separation with celestial by location is gone, but it is true there are multiple levels, likely more than three but we're only taught three. Interesting nothing is mentioned for terrestrial, so it seems homogenous. Telestial is said to be as diverse as the brightness of individual stars, i.e. many different levels. Most of 76 and 88 talk of telestial as that is the most pertinent to people on the earth both in and out of the church.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I would think that if God is a male who is eternally married to a female God, and if they are one, then they would both understand each others thoughts, feelings, desires, and everything about each other perfectly and thus they become one and are all knowing of the opposite sex. Not to mention that God knows the thoughts and intents of us all.

Doctrine and Covenants 6:16
16 Yea, I tell thee, that thou mayest know that there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart.

There's a reason you can't become a God unless you're married. Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and all that. Eternal increase.

Oh, wait, is that even taught anymore? It was taught a lot from Joseph Smith through who? Hinckley? Kimball?

The doctrine of 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom has gone the way of all the earth - with the cancelation of the book "Mormon Doctrine" by BRM, in 2010 - that doctrine has been on the decline to where it's now no longer taught.

False doctrine usually has a short life span - Truth is Eternal

To see how foolish "3 degrees in the CK" is just follow the logic of - become one with God and live in with him only to become divided into 3 possible locations but still be one with Him. It's a messed up as the trinity doctrine - 3 in 1 and yet still 3 or is it . I just don't know.

Do you believe that there are degrees though, as to how we progress? Maybe the NT and D&C teaching of degrees of glory didn't just mean 3, but was meant to signify as many degrees as God's creations needed.

[lundbaek]

Partly, but there are a number of other reasons. One of them is simple, i.e. it requires a lot of work and not much reward (spiritual or otherwise. )

Not everyone, including not all Latter-day Saints, want celestial kingdom for eternity. When my wife was on a mission in England, a man who appeared very keen on joining the Church decided against doing so when he was told that he would be expected to have his wife for eternity. Others do not want to suffer thru raising children any longer, or the other responsibilities of family relationships. Apparently, the celestial kingdom is not attractive to many people.

[Lineman1012]

There's a reason you can't become a God unless you're married. Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and all that. Eternal increase.

Oh, wait, is that even taught anymore? It was taught a lot from Joseph Smith through who? Hinckley? Kimball?

The doctrine of 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom has gone the way of all the earth - with the cancelation of the book "Mormon Doctrine" by BRM, in 2010 - that doctrine has been on the decline to where it's now no longer taught.

False doctrine usually has a short life span - Truth is Eternal

To see how foolish "3 degrees in the CK" is just follow the logic of - become one with God and live in with him only to become divided into 3 possible locations but still be one with Him. It's a messed up as the trinity doctrine - 3 in 1 and yet still 3 or is it . I just don't know.

Do you believe that there are degrees though, as to how we progress? Maybe the NT and D&C teaching of degrees of glory didn't just mean 3, but was meant to signify as many degrees as God's creations needed.

The place where God dwells it is compared to the sun - the sun is one glory with an incomprehensible glory (I don't think Telestial beings have the capacity to comprehend Celestial glory or doctrine, but, because of pride they think they do or can. ( an inherent problem as we are all Telestial beings.

With God being all-powerful and has all glory - where can you or how do you add anything onto that?

The NT and D&C teachings of different glories are referring to the Telestial - which has many divisions - as many as the stars in the heavens and the Terrestrial kingdom which is compared with the moon - which is one glory but it is way ahead of the Telestial in glory, knowledge and power. I don't think there needs to be different levels here or these individuals don't vary enough to warrant additional levels.

The multiple levels in the CK doctrine was never taught by JS. In fact it was never taught in the church until 1921 when Melvin J Ballard gave a talk and slipped up and said Celestial Kingdom instead of *Celestial Glory and we were off to the races with a new doctrine. BRM got a hold of it and spread it around when he edited his FIL book "Doctrines of Salvation" and took it to the next level with his book "Mormon Doctrine".

* Celestial Glory as used in D&C 131 means HEAVEN - that's it. So if we read it properly it says - In HEAVEN there are 3 different heavens or degrees - meaning: Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial. And in order to get to the highest - the Celestial - a man must ...

[Dusty Wanderer]

There's a reason you can't become a God unless you're married. Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and all that. Eternal increase.

Oh, wait, is that even taught anymore? It was taught a lot from Joseph Smith through who? Hinckley? Kimball?

The doctrine of 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom has gone the way of all the earth - with the cancelation of the book "Mormon Doctrine" by BRM, in 2010 - that doctrine has been on the decline to where it's now no longer taught.

False doctrine usually has a short life span - Truth is Eternal

To see how foolish "3 degrees in the CK" is just follow the logic of - become one with God and live in with him only to become divided into 3 possible locations but still be one with Him. It's a messed up as the trinity doctrine - 3 in 1 and yet still 3 or is it . I just don't know.

Do you believe that there are degrees though, as to how we progress? Maybe the NT and D&C teaching of degrees of glory didn't just mean 3, but was meant to signify as many degrees as God's creations needed.

Yeah, maybe “Many” is more than three.
Jn 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[Shawn Henry]

The doctrine of 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom has gone the way of all the earth - with the cancelation of the book "Mormon Doctrine" by BRM, in 2010 - that doctrine has been on the decline to where it's now no longer taught.

False doctrine usually has a short life span - Truth is Eternal

To see how foolish "3 degrees in the CK" is just follow the logic of - become one with God and live in with him only to become divided into 3 possible locations but still be one with Him. It's a messed up as the trinity doctrine - 3 in 1 and yet still 3 or is it . I just don't know.

By that same logic, we would have to get rid of the degrees of glory entirely, which I'm learning to be okay with. The idea of a tiered heaven never quite sat right with me. There are no witnesses provided by God for any other work than the BoM.

[gkearney]

The doctrine of 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom has gone the way of all the earth - with the cancelation of the book "Mormon Doctrine" by BRM, in 2010 - that doctrine has been on the decline to where it's now no longer taught.

False doctrine usually has a short life span - Truth is Eternal

To see how foolish "3 degrees in the CK" is just follow the logic of - become one with God and live in with him only to become divided into 3 possible locations but still be one with Him. It's a messed up as the trinity doctrine - 3 in 1 and yet still 3 or is it . I just don't know.

By that same logic, we would have to get rid of the degrees of glory entirely, which I'm learning to be okay with. The idea of a tiered heaven never quite sat right with me. There are no witnesses provided by God for any other work than the BoM.

I think the three degrees of glory become more palatable if you are willing to accept the idea of movement both progressive and regressive between them.

[Good & Global]

According to scripture, our intelligence and matter, which are both eternal can be combined to eternally be together. Spirit birth and the resurrection are proof that they don't start out together but can become an eternal union to continue forever and ever.

You can make my F-150 out of eternal parts, that doesn't mean I'm stuck driving it eternally.

Perhaps you have not seen the new terms of your Ford Lease agreement.

[Shawn Henry]

I think the three degrees of glory become more palatable if you are willing to accept the idea of movement both progressive and regressive between them.

I'm ok with all of mankind being at different levels of development because we are, but it's when you start limiting access to the Savior to those who are not as progressed as others that I take issue with. Those at the very bottom are the ones he targeted in this life. Why is heaven different.

You either get all the Father has or you do not.

Personally, I think we all stay within that sphere with which we best resonate.

[Reluctant Watchman]

There are no witnesses provided by God for any other work than the BoM.

I'm amazed at how narrow you've set your standard for God's word.

[Erastothenes]

There are no witnesses provided by God for any other work than the BoM.

I'm amazed at how narrow you've set your standard for God's word.

So tell me where the BOM mentions receiving handshakes and such in a temple? Please fill me in on where the BOM talks about eternal marriage in a temple. There are many thing that we believe to be true which arent mentioned in the BOM.

[TwochurchesOnly]

There are no witnesses provided by God for any other work than the BoM.

I'm amazed at how narrow you've set your standard for God's word.

So tell me where the BOM mentions receiving handshakes and such in a temple? Please fill me in on where the BOM talks about eternal marriage in a temple. There are many thing that we believe to be true which arent mentioned in the BOM.

BoM doesn't mention those things
And they aren't "true"