Why People Are Leaving The LDS Church

[Shawn Henry]

Uh... no. One in spirit is worlds apart from the trinitarian viewpoint/belief of one being/entity. I know this may seem like splitting hairs to some people, but by mashing them into one you are able to promote things like there is no gender and justify all manner of limiting behaviors and beliefs.

How would combining two males into one person mean there are no females? The trinity has nothing to do with gender.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Uh... no. One in spirit is worlds apart from the trinitarian viewpoint/belief of one being/entity. I know this may seem like splitting hairs to some people, but by mashing them into one you are able to promote things like there is no gender and justify all manner of limiting behaviors and beliefs.

How would combining two males into one person mean there are no females? The trinity has nothing to do with gender.

In the trinitarian viewpoint, there is no gender. God is neither male nor female, "he" is all genders. That is how homosexuality is justified in the main branch of the church. I spent hours upon hours in the car w/ a man who is episcopal and that's the logic he presented as part of their theology/belief system.

[Shawn Henry]

Uh... no. One in spirit is worlds apart from the trinitarian viewpoint/belief of one being/entity. I know this may seem like splitting hairs to some people, but by mashing them into one you are able to promote things like there is no gender and justify all manner of limiting behaviors and beliefs.

How would combining two males into one person mean there are no females? The trinity has nothing to do with gender.

In the trinitarian viewpoint, there is no gender. God is neither male nor female, "he" is all genders. That is how homosexuality is justified in the main branch of the church. I spent hours upon hours in the car w/ a man who is episcopal and that's the logic he presented as part of their theology/belief system.

That's funny, the same God who created the two genders and put him in one and he says God didn't put him in one. Sounds like he was in need of justifying his lifestyle.

Is there a difference, I wonder, in saying God is neither male or female vs. saying God is both male and female? Maybe.

It's interesting, you use the word 'limiting'. I'd say the opposite is limiting. Confining God to the box of certain characteristics and attributes is what is limiting. Saying God can go in the box or he can be outside the box has far less limits.

I don't know why we have a hard time envisioning God being above gender or more than gender. Being tethered down is somehow comforting.

[Reluctant Watchman]

How would combining two males into one person mean there are no females? The trinity has nothing to do with gender.

In the trinitarian viewpoint, there is no gender. God is neither male nor female, "he" is all genders. That is how homosexuality is justified in the main branch of the church. I spent hours upon hours in the car w/ a man who is episcopal and that's the logic he presented as part of their theology/belief system.

That's funny, the same God who created the two genders and put him in one and he says God didn't put him in one. Sounds like he was in need of justifying his lifestyle.

Is there a difference, I wonder, in saying God is neither male or female vs. saying God is both male and female? Maybe.

It's interesting, you use the word 'limiting'. I'd say the opposite is limiting. Confining God to the box of certain characteristics and attributes is what is limiting. Saying God can go in the box or he can be outside the box has far less limits.

I don't know why we have a hard time envisioning God being above gender or more than gender. Being tethered down is somehow comforting.

Then why does gender matter here? I think the concept of gender is vitally important to creation. Both genders were needed to give life to the universe. 1+1=infinitely more than 2.

Your logic of simply stating that we are putting God in a box by assigning "it"? a gender is playing the game of "what if" and we could then go off and play in the land of hypotheticals. God has given us a lot of truth throughout the duration of mankind. They didn't do this so they could simply disregard all of it when we pass beyond this life.

[Good & Global]

Then why does gender matter here? I think the concept of gender is vitally important to creation. Both genders were needed to give life to the universe. 1+1=infinitely more than 2.

Your logic of simply stating that we are putting God in a box by assigning "it"? a gender is playing the game of "what if" and we could then go off and play in the land of hypotheticals. God has given us a lot of truth throughout the duration of mankind. They didn't do this so they could simply disregard all of it when we pass beyond this life.

Hey wait I was told I would get my own planet after this life if I just endured mormonism until the end.
I thought it was over and done after we make it through.

You mean there are still classes afterward and a test? What was that 10% lab fee I was always paying about?

[onefour1]

If the Lectures on Faith teaches that God doesn't have a body but is only a spirit, and if God the Father and Jesus Christ are the same being, then wouldn't God the Father, who is Jesus Christ, have a resurrected body of flesh and bones as taught in Luke 24? God the Father couldn't be just a spirit if he is the same being as Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is a resurrected immortal being with a body of flesh and bones at the time the Lectures on Faith were taught. Go figure?

What does that even mean to be "just a spirit".

It means being a spirit without an immortal resurrected body.

Your phrasing implies limitations. There's no reason to imply limitations to a spirit. Change your understanding of a spirit and its power and the rest will fall into place.

You are limited without an immortal resurrected body according to scripture. Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34 tells us that you cannot have a fulness of joy without an inseparable connection to element.

Doctrine and Covenant 93:33-34
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

God, as a spirit is the most intelligent being there is. He is so intelligent that he can instantly organize physical matter into any form he wants. He could instantly appear looking like anybody. He could appear in multiple forms at the same time, that's how intelligent he is. He could instantly appear in a resurrected body and instantly change to a mortal body. Just like you can go to your closet and put on any appearance, so can God.

I certainly do not believe that. I believe Joseph Smith and Alma and Paul on this. God as an immortal resurrected being has an inseparably connected spirit and body. He cannot hang up his body in the closet. He is immortally connected to his body (see D&C 93:33-34 above).

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

Here again Alma tells us that the spirit and body can no more be divided but become immortal and spiritual.

The Apostle Paul tells us:

1 Corinthians 15:42-55
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Here we read that in the resurrection we are to never be divided from our immortal bodies again. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so no, the spirit of God does not go and take on mortal bodies again and hang up his immortal body in the closet.

Why would limit yourself to thinking that being imprisoned in one physical form is better than the freedom of having power over all forms? Imagine being told you had to go up to your closet to pick out a suit because you would be stuck in it for the rest of your life.

You look at having an immortal resurrected body as an imprisonment. I look at it as being made free and immortal. Never having to be separated from my body that has become immortal and receiving a fulness of joy by being inseparably connected.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:50-51
50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.
51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life,

[Shawn Henry]

Then why does gender matter here? I think the concept of gender is vitally important to creation. Both genders were needed to give life to the universe. 1+1=infinitely more than 2.

Your logic of simply stating that we are putting God in a box by assigning "it"? a gender is playing the game of "what if" and we could then go off and play in the land of hypotheticals. God has given us a lot of truth throughout the duration of mankind. They didn't do this so they could simply disregard all of it when we pass beyond this life.

Gender matters here because you have to propagate physical life. Babies have to be made. Before and after the physical there is no baby making, spirits already exist. Do you think spirit semen fertilizes spirit eggs and then somebody has to haul that gestating spirit around. No! Spirits already exist.

You assigned God "it", not me. Don't try pinning your words on me. What I'm saying is God is above gender.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Then why does gender matter here? I think the concept of gender is vitally important to creation. Both genders were needed to give life to the universe. 1+1=infinitely more than 2.

Your logic of simply stating that we are putting God in a box by assigning "it"? a gender is playing the game of "what if" and we could then go off and play in the land of hypotheticals. God has given us a lot of truth throughout the duration of mankind. They didn't do this so they could simply disregard all of it when we pass beyond this life.

Hey wait I was told I would get my own planet after this life if I just endured mormonism until the end.
I thought it was over and done after we make it through.

You mean there are still classes afterward and a test? What was that 10% lab fee I was always paying about?

I work in in the creative industry and I’m looking forward with great anticipation to creating “worlds without end.” I love spatial and organic design. Nature is my church these days.

This life is a time of learning, set aside in such a way that cannot be replicated in the spirit realm. There is something about mortality that causes advancement to such a degree that our Parents chose to make it part of our ascension process.

I actually think the fee is much higher than 10%, we are to give our all to God.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Then why does gender matter here? I think the concept of gender is vitally important to creation. Both genders were needed to give life to the universe. 1+1=infinitely more than 2.

Your logic of simply stating that we are putting God in a box by assigning "it"? a gender is playing the game of "what if" and we could then go off and play in the land of hypotheticals. God has given us a lot of truth throughout the duration of mankind. They didn't do this so they could simply disregard all of it when we pass beyond this life.

Gender matters here because you have to propagate physical life. Babies have to be made. Before and after the physical there is no baby making, spirits already exist. Do you think spirit semen fertilizes spirit eggs and then somebody has to haul that gestating spirit around. No! Spirits already exist.

You assigned God "it", not me. Don't try pinning your words on me. What I'm saying is God is above gender.

Our Parents each gave of their endowments in order to bring about life. How that happens, I don’t know. Spirit matter was organized in some way to bring about our spirit bodies. There are degrees of advancement to all spirit matter.

[Libertas Est Salus]

Then why does gender matter here? I think the concept of gender is vitally important to creation. Both genders were needed to give life to the universe. 1+1=infinitely more than 2.

Your logic of simply stating that we are putting God in a box by assigning "it"? a gender is playing the game of "what if" and we could then go off and play in the land of hypotheticals. God has given us a lot of truth throughout the duration of mankind. They didn't do this so they could simply disregard all of it when we pass beyond this life.

Gender matters here because you have to propagate physical life. Babies have to be made. Before and after the physical there is no baby making, spirits already exist. Do you think spirit semen fertilizes spirit eggs and then somebody has to haul that gestating spirit around. No! Spirits already exist.

You assigned God "it", not me. Don't try pinning your words on me. What I'm saying is God is above gender.

I realize my contempt for an idea doesn't make it false, but I have to say that the idea of a genderless god is depressing to me. I hope that's not the true nature of my Heavenly Father, and I genuinely suspect it's not.

[Shawn Henry]

You look at having an immortal resurrected body as an imprisonment. I look at it as being made free and immortal. Never having to be separated from my body that has become immortal and receiving a fulness of joy by being inseparably connected.

You're getting hooked up on the phrasing, "inseparably connected" and "never to be divided".

You're right, in that you said "never having to be separated" from your body. You don't ever have to be, you have earned that right. However, agency is still at play and God will not force you to stay in any state. You can always still choose to move up or down. If you want to continue to overcome the flesh, you can not do that in a perfected resurrected body, because it is not subject to the weaknesses of the flesh. Never to be divided, means never to be forcibly separated. Inseparably connected means it is a gift that can never be taken from you.

Look at it this way. Suppose as a resurrected being you completely master the piano. Once you do, you are inseparably connected to that gift. You and the gift are never to be divided, but that doesn't mean that you are stuck playing the piano for all eternity.

Your fulness of joy comes from the ability to play the piano, not from always playing it.

[Shawn Henry]

Our Parents each gave of their endowments in order to bring about life. How that happens, I don’t know. Spirit matter was organized in some way to bring about our spirit bodies. There are degrees of advancement to all spirit matter.

Come on, man! Stick to the scriptures! Where's this "our parents" crap come from. There's no "our parents" in the Genesis account.

Besides, you've been a spirit for eons of time, you've always existed. How is someone your parent when you've existed as long as they have? You could say you have a mentor, but you've had thousands of those.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Our Parents each gave of their endowments in order to bring about life. How that happens, I don’t know. Spirit matter was organized in some way to bring about our spirit bodies. There are degrees of advancement to all spirit matter.

Come on, man! Stick to the scriptures! Where's this "our parents" crap come from. There's no "our parents" in the Genesis account.

Besides, you've been a spirit for eons of time, you've always existed. How is someone your parent when you've existed as long as they have? You could say you have a mentor, but you've had thousands of those.

I can cite many "scriptures", just ones you don't accept as such.

[Shawn Henry]

I realize my contempt for an idea doesn't make it false, but I have to say that the idea of a genderless god is depressing to me. I hope that's not the true nature of my Heavenly Father, and I genuinely suspect it's not.

You're an intelligence. Intelligences don't start off with genitals, those are a physical construct. Intelligences have characteristics and attributes. All intelligences can learn any and all attributes, as they see fit to work on them. Any intelligence that is a higher intelligence would naturally want to learn and master all characteristics and attributes.

You're taking your current understanding of the flesh and superimposing that over all things spiritual. You can currently only see a gender division, so therefore, that is the only lens through which you can see the heavenly.

Nobody said God is genderless. I have said he is above or beyond gender, meaning he is more than gender. Do you really think God has not mastered all the attributes of both genders? Do you really think he is lacking?

[Shawn Henry]

I can cite many "scriptures", just ones you don't accept as such.

The Nemhemah record notwithstanding, how do you have parents when you have existed as long as they have? How are they your parents?

[Ymarsakar]

Our Parents each gave of their endowments in order to bring about life. How that happens, I don’t know. Spirit matter was organized in some way to bring about our spirit bodies. There are degrees of advancement to all spirit matter.

Come on, man! Stick to the scriptures! Where's this "our parents" crap come from. There's no "our parents" in the Genesis account.

Besides, you've been a spirit for eons of time, you've always existed. How is someone your parent when you've existed as long as they have? You could say you have a mentor, but you've had thousands of those.

Spirit can deform. THat is what eternal progress also means. You can eternally deprogress too. YOu can also split and forget yourselves, war with yourselves.

After an "eternity" of this, the father and mother would be the part that wasn't fighting itself.

To translate it into human terms, god has a god, and god's god god has a mother and father too. A bit crude but correct still.

This is based and derived on how fractals work.

"Gender matters here because you have to propagate physical life. Babies have to be made. Before and after the physical there is no baby making, spirits already exist. Do you think spirit semen fertilizes spirit eggs and then somebody has to haul that gestating spirit around. No! Spirits already exist."

Spirit created gender, because spirit also has polarity. Much like electricity.

Yin vs yang. Potential vs kinetic energy. Those are polarities, but when one sees it fractaled into humanity, it is now gender.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I can cite many "scriptures", just ones you don't accept as such.

The Nemhemah record notwithstanding, how do you have parents when you have existed as long as they have? How are they your parents?

I think the answer to that has to do with the process of ascension. I think spirit and matter can evolve or possibly even devolve. What that looks like, I don't really know.

[Ymarsakar]

"I think spirit and matter can evolve or possibly even devolve. What that looks like, I don't really know."

That's a topic I specialize in.

[Shawn Henry]

Spirit created gender

...and what has a beginning has an end.

[Shawn Henry]

YOu can also split

Many people teach this concept that a spirit can split itself and be in two places at once. I find it fascinating. Even beyond fascinating.

Imagine the learning potential of such an option. Imagine being that guy who always kicks the family dog, only to learn that you planned your life so that you were also the dog.

[onefour1]

Then why does gender matter here? I think the concept of gender is vitally important to creation. Both genders were needed to give life to the universe. 1+1=infinitely more than 2.

Your logic of simply stating that we are putting God in a box by assigning "it"? a gender is playing the game of "what if" and we could then go off and play in the land of hypotheticals. God has given us a lot of truth throughout the duration of mankind. They didn't do this so they could simply disregard all of it when we pass beyond this life.

Gender matters here because you have to propagate physical life. Babies have to be made. Before and after the physical there is no baby making, spirits already exist. Do you think spirit semen fertilizes spirit eggs and then somebody has to haul that gestating spirit around. No! Spirits already exist.

You assigned God "it", not me. Don't try pinning your words on me. What I'm saying is God is above gender.

Gender is an eternal principle and I believe that bringing eternal intelligence together with spirit matter comes through the process of procreation. Our spirit bodies are the combining of our eternal intelligence with spirit matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Moses 3:5
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

We are the literal offspring of God the Father and through the process of procreation He and our Mother in Heaven have the continuation of the seeds and bring together our self-existent intelligences with spirit matter to give birth to our spirits. Our spirits then come to a mortal world and receive a mortal body through the process of procreation that is given to them by God. Spirits have not eternally existed but were created by God. The process of procreation is an eternal process. Only Gods have the ability to procreate our spirits.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:19
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

1 Corinthians 11:11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

[Ymarsakar]

Spirit created gender

...and what has a beginning has an end.

The spirit, in its basic form, is an eternal baby. No personality, no character, no desires, nothing it likes or dislikes.

To grow spiritually, one becomes subject to second order fractals. A pattern develops.

This is how eternal spirits yet have eternal progression too. They are not static.

If an eternal spirit had a beginning, then it has an end, yet they also eternally learns. So where is the beginning of their learning? To begin their learning doesn't mean the spirit's existence began somehow.

Anyways, the whole thing is a complex layer of paradoxes and human minds cannot grasp it. Certainly a civilization that still tries to war with itself and to chase away the Most High's holy ones away, isn't prepared for these lessons.

[Shawn Henry]

We are the literal offspring of God the Father and through the process of procreation He and our Mother in Heaven have the continuation of the seeds and bring together our self-existent intelligences with spirit matter to give birth to our spirits.

That is indeed what our learned precepts have taught us, but there is no heavenly mother in scripture, nor will find anything about spirits being "birthed". It's a leftover precept from the polygamist dynastic empire of 1 man and his 50 wives having physical sex to have spiritual babies to populate their own worlds.

If God created us male and female, what were we before that point. Creation is a starting point. All starting points can have end points.

So, if God created us male and female, by definition, we were not initially male and female.

[Shawn Henry]

The spirit, in its basic form, is an eternal baby. No personality, no character, no desires, nothing it likes or dislikes.

How "basic" are you taking us here? Even the spirits of worms have likes and dislikes. They like to eat dirt and poop.

[Reluctant Watchman]

All starting points can have end points.

Are you saying that matter or spirit returns to its original state? Even after progression or ascension?