Why People Are Leaving The LDS Church

[Fight for the right]

Why People Are Leaving The LDS Church. Cwic Media says right now it's all about breaking down Christianity and claiming it is the oppressor. Identity politics. I write about this all the time. Here is the link.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi4-fEEPBxE

The LDS Church? Tis still Jesus Christ's Church. Men and women in leadership positions have lost the Spirit of the Lord and are serving as the natural man would serve and they are dragging many down with them. Stay in and call them out. Don't leave. Is that what Christ would have you do.

[Ymarsakar]

"I’ve got a lot of repenting and forgiving to do but trust is something very rare. People who buy into fear will turn against those closest to them on a dime."

The truth is that people here are so afraid of cianons and fbi death squads, that they would rather find death people like JOseph Smith and Brigham to gossip/attack. Because dead people won't swat them.

Part of forgiveness is self forgiveness and compassion. Many can't forgive themselves for participating in 2020 and helping. They are too ashamed of their actions to even talk about it, so they bury it and find somebody else to blame. Ironically, it doesn't really matter who took the wax or not. If their behaviors are exactly the same.

[kirtland r.m.]

Why People Are Leaving The LDS Church. Cwic Media says right now it's all about breaking down Christianity and claiming it is the oppressor. Identity politics. I write about this all the time. Here is the link.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi4-fEEPBxE

The LDS Church? Tis still Jesus Christ's Church. Men and women in leadership positions have lost the Spirit of the Lord and are serving as the natural man would serve and they are dragging many down with them. Stay in and call them out. Don't leave. Is that what Christ would have you do.

Hi "Fight for the right", first of all I like your forum name, and on this heading, this was just the heading used by Cwic. I could absolutely not agree with you more, you are spot on in everything you said. Spot on!!! There are some internal problems and you are right about how to fix them. Also, as I have been saying, there is an ongoing battle across the earth to weaken and bring down Christianity. What ever is their battle cry or flavor of the month catch slogans, in the end we know who is behind it.

[Blue Marble]

Again, I point to the o.p. with some additional information. About 64% of Americans call themselves Christian today. That might sound like a lot, but 50 years ago that number was 90%, according to a 2020 Pew Research Center study. That same survey said the Christian majority in the US may disappear by 2070. This trend is happening throughout the western world. It is promoted by Satan, including his allies, the communists, socialists, new age weirdos and all atheists and some others.

I think the fundamental issue is Christianity, as people practice it, is just not working for people and they are realizing it. We read about miracles in the scriptures and then lead our mostly miserable lives. We pray and beg God for help and then our children die anyways. We go from church meeting to church meeting and never feel fulfilled. Most people don't have a fundamental change towards God because they are just going through the motions.

Being Christian and devoting yourself to God are not synonymous. We want to follow God but do it in the confines of Babylon.

I think there is a lot of truth in this statement.

I feel that the fundamental problem, however, is that as a society we have become self-focused and decadent. People want a religion that gratifies them rather than a religion that makes them change. They desire God to love them rather than them loving God.

This puts many religions in a position where they have tried to adapt to the desires of the people, and the result is what Telavian describes. The religions have no power to do anything, and the people don't get what they desire from them. So those looking for gratification become disillusioned, and those who understand the true purpose of the religion also become disillusioned as they see their religion sell out as they chase after these narcissicists like a cheap prostitute.

The cure is to begin teaching people that their purpose in life is not to be gratified, but to learn self-control. That happiness comes through loving God and dedicating your life to Him by willingly sacrificing your worldly desires and serving others, not through constant indulgence and fake positive feedback from strangers.

But this is difficult because most churches, including ours, have squandered the authority they had in an ill-guided effort to be more pleasing to the wicked world. Most people now learn and emulate the narcissistic characteristics of those they see on social media rather than having their character shaped and molded by faith and family.

Very common to hear "testimonies" that boil down to "God blessed me, therefore I believe in God."

[Thinker]

God does love us. That is what we most need to know, believe & feel. Advertisers & marketing teams know what people want to hear. A cult who sets up its leader as coming above god (not in word but in practice)… uses opportunities to tap into divine truths to add credibility to himself. It doesn’t negate the truth that God loves us, but it’s good to remember not to follow the profit in his evil ways.

Remember "we are all in this together" and We all disavow racism

Agreed good concepts that are independent of any one group or person but come from God can be hijacked to be a tool of evil. I mean how many people do you think they would get with an advertising slogan of Line Up! Come Get your Death Shot!

But this exactly what they did with we love you, everyone loves each other in this world, save grandma sort of mentality.

This is why they were called Godsends by the very people telling us God loves us. Evil, very evil people. It is something most christians and good people can't comprehend because they do not think like psychopaths in lamb's clothing.

Children raised by abusive parents cannot maintain a sense of sane security without blaming themselves for their parents’ dysfunction. Similarly with cult members who don’t mentally grow up.

Like a commercial, Russel Nelson after receiving probably saline as Oaks did:

“We have prayed often for this literal godsend," President Nelson said in a Facebook post on Jan. 19, soon after receiving the shot.

“The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.” - John 16:2

[onefour1]

Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

In this verse we understand that the Son is in the express image of the Father. In other words, if you were to look at Jesus you would see exactly what the Father looks like. For this reason Jesus told his disciples that if you have seen Him that you have seen the Father (John 14:7).

When Joseph Smith had his first vision, two beings appeared before him, the Father and the Son. Joseph later taught that both the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones but the Holy Ghost did not have a body of flesh and bones but was a personage of spirit. So we see from this that there are three distinct personages in the godhead (D&C 130:22). If you read the King Follett Discourse, it is clear that the Father was an exalted man before this world was created. He was an immortal resurrected being who had already received his exaltation. Because he was immortal, he was inseparably connected to his body and could never die again. For this reason, he needed another to come to earth to lay down his life for the sins of the world. This other person was Jesus Christ who had not yet received a body and had not yet been resurrected to immortality. So according to the revelations of God to our beloved prophet Joseph Smith, God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct personages who sit side by side in the heavens above on their immortal thrones of glory. Their spirits are separate and their resurrected, exalted bodies are separate. They are only one in that Jesus and the Holy Ghost will only do the will of the Father. They are one is purpose and glory.

John 5:19
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

[Good & Global]

I think the fundamental issue is Christianity, as people practice it, is just not working for people and they are realizing it. We read about miracles in the scriptures and then lead our mostly miserable lives. We pray and beg God for help and then our children die anyways. We go from church meeting to church meeting and never feel fulfilled. Most people don't have a fundamental change towards God because they are just going through the motions.

Being Christian and devoting yourself to God are not synonymous. We want to follow God but do it in the confines of Babylon.

I think there is a lot of truth in this statement.

I feel that the fundamental problem, however, is that as a society we have become self-focused and decadent. People want a religion that gratifies them rather than a religion that makes them change. They desire God to love them rather than them loving God.

This puts many religions in a position where they have tried to adapt to the desires of the people, and the result is what Telavian describes. The religions have no power to do anything, and the people don't get what they desire from them. So those looking for gratification become disillusioned, and those who understand the true purpose of the religion also become disillusioned as they see their religion sell out as they chase after these narcissicists like a cheap prostitute.

The cure is to begin teaching people that their purpose in life is not to be gratified, but to learn self-control. That happiness comes through loving God and dedicating your life to Him by willingly sacrificing your worldly desires and serving others, not through constant indulgence and fake positive feedback from strangers.

But this is difficult because most churches, including ours, have squandered the authority they had in an ill-guided effort to be more pleasing to the wicked world. Most people now learn and emulate the narcissistic characteristics of those they see on social media rather than having their character shaped and molded by faith and family.

Very common to hear "testimonies" that boil down to "God blessed me, therefore I believe in God."

I hear tithing testimonies like that all the time. So babylon continues to get fed and grows above us.

[Chip]

We recently had our stake conference and almost all of the talks were about not falling away due to doubters. All people with issues are "doubters" and they were subtly shamed. Really, it seems like the leadership are left trying to convince each other, while ostensibly speaking to others.

[IsaiahVision]

Went to our ward of 20 years yesterday. They had the large overflow open. Not sure why. Far fewer people attending in recent memory. Condensed, everyone would easily fit into a little more than half of the main chapel. It feels 'spiritually dead' in there; like the remaining actives members are all 'zombies'. This ward was all 'maskers' and most, I surmise, took the vaxx too.

We have a 2nd country rural home. In June, we moved our records to that ward. The ward is busting at the seams with growth. They do 'discuss' things or at least opinions are heard. Only half of the members were 'maskers', probably less than half were vaxxed. The last Bishop was 'fired' for refusing to wear a mask at the onset of Covid.

In this rural area, all in the last month, we met one family that was told to resign or they would be ex'd for publicly speaking out about church's covid policy. Another family that left over the church's covid policy (I think was the last straw). And another family that is planning to leave the church. All of these believe in Jesus and the BkoM.

On the other side in the old ward, I personally know several 'liberal' families that have gone completely inactive or completely left the church.

I do believe we are in the mist of a great apostasy and/or outflow of members. There are many reasons.

[Reluctant Watchman]

We recently had our stake conference and almost all of the talks were about not falling away due to doubters. All people with issues are "doubters" and they were subtly shamed. Really, it seems like the leadership are left trying to convince each other, while ostensibly speaking to others.

I attended a mission report for my niece yesterday and another sister was leaving and also spoke. First time I've been to an LDS sacrament meeting in almost two years. I had many mixed emotions.

It was sad to see that I could find almost no doctrine being taught from the pulpit. Jesus was almost non-existent.

[IsaiahVision]

I literally just listened to 3 Nephi 6:14:

"...insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land..."

So, from 29th to 30th year...in less than two years, the church was utterly destroyed....because of:

pride
boastings
great riches
too many lawyers
"...satan had great power unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, and to the puffing them up with pride , tempting them to seek for power, and authority, and riches, and the vain things of the world."

[Shawn Henry]

When Joseph Smith had his first vision, two beings appeared before him, the Father and the Son. Joseph later taught that both the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones but the Holy Ghost did not have a body of flesh and bones but was a personage of spirit. So we see from this that there are three distinct personages in the godhead (D&C 130:22). If you read the King Follett Discourse, it is clear that the Father was an exalted man before this world was created. He was an immortal resurrected being who had already received his exaltation. Because he was immortal, he was inseparably connected to his body and could never die again. For this reason, he needed another to come to earth to lay down his life for the sins of the world. This other person was Jesus Christ who had not yet received a body and had not yet been resurrected to immortality. So according to the revelations of God to our beloved prophet Joseph Smith, God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct personages who sit side by side in the heavens above on their immortal thrones of glory. Their spirits are separate and their resurrected, exalted bodies are separate. They are only one in that Jesus and the Holy Ghost will only do the will of the Father. They are one is purpose and glory.

Wow! You dutifully parroted the narrative we all know and grew up with. Big problems with that narrative though.

1. JS's 1832 account of the first vision (the only one in his handwriting) claims only one being appeared not two.
2. Section 130 is only claimed to have come from JS, he purposefully omitted in the 1844 D&C.
3. The HG being a personage is directly contradicted by the Lectures on Faith that JS established as canon, for the very reason of describing the Godhead.
4. The Father is a personage of spirit as expressed in the Bible, the BoM, the 1835 +1844 D&C.

By rejecting the God the scriptures declared to the saints, he turned them over to another god and tested them with non-scriptural teachings like section 130 and a random speech at a funeral, which they lapped up without question.

Trust scripture my friend, not alleged speeches at funerals.

By the way, in the BoM, Jesus repeats over and over again that he is the very Eternal Father, and he also repeats that he is the both the Father and the Son, and not with lower case f's like he's the junior father, they're upper case.

[Reluctant Watchman]

When Joseph Smith had his first vision, two beings appeared before him, the Father and the Son. Joseph later taught that both the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones but the Holy Ghost did not have a body of flesh and bones but was a personage of spirit. So we see from this that there are three distinct personages in the godhead (D&C 130:22). If you read the King Follett Discourse, it is clear that the Father was an exalted man before this world was created. He was an immortal resurrected being who had already received his exaltation. Because he was immortal, he was inseparably connected to his body and could never die again. For this reason, he needed another to come to earth to lay down his life for the sins of the world. This other person was Jesus Christ who had not yet received a body and had not yet been resurrected to immortality. So according to the revelations of God to our beloved prophet Joseph Smith, God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct personages who sit side by side in the heavens above on their immortal thrones of glory. Their spirits are separate and their resurrected, exalted bodies are separate. They are only one in that Jesus and the Holy Ghost will only do the will of the Father. They are one is purpose and glory.

Wow! You dutifully parroted the narrative we all know and grew up with. Big problems with that narrative though.

1. JS's 1832 account of the first vision (the only one in his handwriting) claims only one being appeared not two.
2. Section 130 is only claimed to have come from JS, he purposefully omitted in the 1844 D&C.
3. The HG being a personage is directly contradicted by the Lectures on Faith that JS established as canon, for the very reason of describing the Godhead.
4. The Father is a personage of spirit as expressed in the Bible, the BoM, the 1835 +1844 D&C.

By rejecting the God the scriptures declared to the saints, he turned them over to another god and tested them with non-scriptural teachings like section 130 and a random speech at a funeral, which they lapped up without question.

Trust scripture my friend, not alleged speeches at funerals.

By the way, in the BoM, Jesus repeats over and over again that he is the very Eternal Father, and he also repeats that he is the both the Father and the Son, and not with lower case f's like he's the junior father, they're upper case.

I wouldn't fix Joseph to a single account of the FV. Other accounts also stated that he saw "many angels."

[Shawn Henry]

I agree that the text is correctly quoted. I also believe that in the context of the lectures, it references indeed two personages. "There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made..." This extra bit of information deliberately makes a distinction.

The LoF uses one context while Joseph's oral declaration elsewhere carries its own context, one being a totality of three personages in the Godhead (sermon in the grove) generally speaking, while the other describes only two of the three (LoF) "by whom all things were made." Both can be true. If I may use a crude analogy, someone would correctly say that February has 28 days in it (let's not concern ourselves with leap year for now), but I would argue that all twelve months have 28 days in them. Both are true depending on the context.

'Nuff said.

I missed your reply the first time, but I do remember you used the February analogy before as well and I think I said something along the lines of; Yeah, but it would be misleading if I stated it in the context of which months only have 28 days.

I always appreciate your responses, I just see two glaring problems:
1. The sole purpose of the LoF was to describe the Godhead, so we would have to say they failed in their purpose. The First Presidency working on the specifically for canon was not sufficient, we had to wait for Mr. Follet to die for it to be corrected at a funeral.
2. I see it as a complete contradiction to the wording of LoF., meaning that they just plain got it wrong.

It is more probable that the Lord was testing us to see if we would be faithful to what we had already received.

Plus, just read the BoM if you want to know who the Father is.

[Shawn Henry]

I wouldn't fix Joseph to a single account of the FV. Other accounts also stated that he saw "many angels."

True, but at the same time, there's not a single historian or any person claiming that it's not Joseph's handwriting or that someone forged it. Nobody is saying so and so had some Mark Hoffman talent, so by default it gets placed above the rest because we can be fairly positive he wrote it himself.

Plus, it's the only one congruent with the BoM.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Plus, it's the only one congruent with the BoM.

...according to your own personal take on the BoM. Just had to add that.

[4Joshua8]

The church has been bogged down with confusion since Joseph was alive. Lies, errors, and false doctrine have all been relentlessly spewed upon the membership for over 190 years. It's a miracle the church hasn't completely collapsed.

[Shawn Henry]

Plus, it's the only one congruent with the BoM.

...according to your own personal take on the BoM. Just had to add that.

That's fair, but let's also add that my personal take accords with the English as written, as long as we are adding further clarification.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Plus, it's the only one congruent with the BoM.

...according to your own personal take on the BoM. Just had to add that.

That's fair, but let's also add that my personal take accords with the English as written, as long as we are adding further clarification.

I know, I know, we've gone the rounds on this. All languages can be interpreted in many different ways.

[Shawn Henry]

I know, I know, we've gone the rounds on this. All languages can be interpreted in many different ways.

I don't remember you ever claiming plain English can be interpreted in different ways.

It's kinda like this. We both read in the scriptures the phrase: "When you get to the fork in the road, turn right". So, I take it for what it says and take the path to the right. You, however, have been taught that the right way is another way of saying the correct way and that you know the correct way to be to the left.

Does that sum it up.

P.S. I will probably only give up when you acknowledge my point and say: "You're right, the BoM does say that Jesus is both the Father and the Son." I, hereby, acknowledge your point that the scriptures could have meant something other than what they are saying, and people do have different views.

You're always the best RW.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I know, I know, we've gone the rounds on this. All languages can be interpreted in many different ways.

I don't remember you ever claiming plain English can be interpreted in different ways.

It's kinda like this. We both read in the scriptures the phrase: "When you get to the fork in the road, turn right". So, I take it for what it says and take the path to the right. You, however, have been taught that the right way is another way of saying the correct way and that you know the correct way to be to the left.

Does that sum it up.

P.S. I will probably only give up when you acknowledge my point and say: "You're right, the BoM does say that Jesus is both the Father and the Son." I, hereby, acknowledge your point that the scriptures could have meant something other than what they are saying, and people do have different views.

You're always the best RW.

The scriptures don't always say "turn right." You interpret them that way and you see a clear path ahead for yourself. That's cool. I think assigning meaning to titles and basing and entire theology off of that can lead one into strange paths. That's all.

[Shawn Henry]

The scriptures don't always say "turn right." You interpret them that way and you see a clear path ahead for yourself. That's cool. I think assigning meaning to titles and basing and entire theology off of that can lead one into strange paths. That's all.

...but the BoM does say Jesus is the Father and the Son, right? It's a capital F not lower case, right? It doesn't say father junior or father in training, right?

Do I at least have those things right?

[Reluctant Watchman]

The scriptures don't always say "turn right." You interpret them that way and you see a clear path ahead for yourself. That's cool. I think assigning meaning to titles and basing and entire theology off of that can lead one into strange paths. That's all.

...but the BoM does say Jesus is the Father and the Son, right? It's a capital F not lower case, right? It doesn't say father junior or father in training, right?

Do I at least have those things right?

Yes, it does. But those are titles. He can be BOTH the Father and the Son. But that doesn't mean He's our Creator/Father.

[Mamabear]

https://www.tiktok.com/@shane_deconstru ... nHklf&_r=1

This guy sums it up pretty well!

[marc]

I missed your reply the first time, but I do remember you used the February analogy before as well and I think I said something along the lines of; Yeah, but it would be misleading if I stated it in the context of which months only have 28 days.

I always appreciate your responses, I just see two glaring problems:
1. The sole purpose of the LoF was to describe the Godhead, so we would have to say they failed in their purpose. The First Presidency working on the specifically for canon was not sufficient, we had to wait for Mr. Follet to die for it to be corrected at a funeral.
2. I see it as a complete contradiction to the wording of LoF., meaning that they just plain got it wrong.

It is more probable that the Lord was testing us to see if we would be faithful to what we had already received.

Plus, just read the BoM if you want to know who the Father is.

1. Disagree about it being the "sole purpose" but I'm willing to reconsider if you can demonstrate how it is the sole purpose.
2. Fair enough.

I've read and studied the BoM well over 100 times. I'm aware of what it teaches. All my best to you.