LDS Freedom Forum

Growing up in the church, there is great pressure to know. Have you noticed?

I just wanted to share that I have found a new sense of Freedom in letting go of the need to say "I know" and embracing the truth, which is simply that I believe.

Anybody else know what I'm talking about? Have you experienced this new way of approaching your faith in God and the various aspects of the gospel?

I know well what you're talking about. As I more carefully read the Book of Mormon and other scriptures, I came to the realization that many of the things I professed to know were actually beliefs. And I became aware of the cultural perception within the Church that those that "know" are more enlightened than those that still "believe".

I started to feel disingenuous stating that I knew things that I did not. As I began using the two terms more accurately, I felt better and also became more grateful for the things that I actually knew.

I don't know what you're talking about. Faith has been one of the hardest things for me to understand; and I wouldn't say I get it.

nonetheless, I have another perspective. I consider that there are things that "I understand" but do not know. This has led me to think about "understanding" as a very practical action. To understand something means you can do it.
For example I 'understand' how to cook an egg (which is an easy example), I can do it, and I can even explain to you how to do it.
This second part of explaining is where knowledge comes into play.

but for more complicated things the gap between 'doing' and 'explaining how you did it' becomes larger.

Also, this is a very concrete concept of an action (to cook eggs)... but what about complicated abstract concepts? or ideas which are not even actions?
The half-baked idea I have here, has to do with perception. To understand non-actionable ideas maybe has something to do with being able to perceive them somehow?

and all this before even adding "belief" and "faith" into the mix!

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 4:38 pm Growing up in the church, there is great pressure to know. Have you noticed?

I just wanted to share that I have found a new sense of Freedom in letting go of the need to say "I know" and embracing the truth, which is simply that I believe.

Anybody else know what I'm talking about? Have you experienced this new way of approaching your faith in God and the various aspects of the gospel?

Yes I feel the same. I believe, not I know. there’s also a great deal I don’t know and I’m ok with that. Going from thinking I knew a lot, to admitting that I know very little is humbling.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 4:38 pm Growing up in the church, there is great pressure to know. Have you noticed?

I just wanted to share that I have found a new sense of Freedom in letting go of the need to say "I know" and embracing the truth, which is simply that I believe.

Anybody else know what I'm talking about? Have you experienced this new way of approaching your faith in God and the various aspects of the gospel?

I KNOW what you are talking about and I BELIEVE relief comes with not having to KNOW everything.

It is nice to speak as authentic people with organic faith not allusions, not made up fairy tales - real faith.

Mamabear wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 8:00 pm

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 4:38 pm Growing up in the church, there is great pressure to know. Have you noticed?

I just wanted to share that I have found a new sense of Freedom in letting go of the need to say "I know" and embracing the truth, which is simply that I believe.

Anybody else know what I'm talking about? Have you experienced this new way of approaching your faith in God and the various aspects of the gospel?

Yes I feel the same. I believe, not I know. there’s also a great deal I don’t know and I’m ok with that. Going from thinking I knew a lot, to admitting that I know very little is humbling.

As one gets older, to not recognize as the years pass that you know very very little is to fail at this learning experience.

"the more I know, the more I realize that I don't know" This whittles down to next to nothing after time. I will say this tho, it is possible to know some things, it just takes extreme devotion and sincerity and time. Very difficult if not impossible to explain.

The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance - Benjamin Franklin

Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance - Confucius

Are mormons ever learning without ever coming to a knowledge of the truth because they fail to plumb the depths of their ignorance and insist on KNOWING everything?

I think of the young children who go up to the microphone during fast and testimony meeting, having been taught to lie by saying, “I know the church is true,” when in truth they really know very little and have only begun to approach a belief in the testimony of their parents and church leaders.

I think of the old teachings (maybe they’re still teaching this, I don’t know) to missionaries to bear and share testimony by saying, “I know,” when in truth they are just following instructions on how to be an effective proselyter.

So many stand in front of others and boldly declare that they know spiritual knowledge without realizing and remembering that Jesus said more blessed are they who have not seen and yet have BELIEVED.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 8:21 pm I think of the young children who go up to the microphone during fast and testimony meeting, having been taught to lie by saying, “I know the church is true,” when in truth they really know very little and have only begun to approach a belief in the testimony of their parents and church leaders.

I think of the old teachings (maybe they’re still teaching this, I don’t know) to missionaries to bear and share testimony by saying, “I know,” when in truth they are just following instructions on how to be an effective proselyter.

So many stand in front of others and boldly declare that they know spiritual knowledge without realizing and remembering that Jesus said more blessed are they who have not seen and yet have BELIEVED.

Very salient points. For the record, yes they still do all of these baffling practices. I don't know why anyone would want to ever convince people of the supposed truth by faking experiences or spiritual knowledge.

I think a good clarification to make here is that some people assume to understand “I know” to be followed with “by the power of the Holy Ghost”—but the latter is less frequently said and has evolved into meaning more than it really is. Even said that way, I think it should still be understood that it’s professed generally as a belief. Makes me wonder how people distinguish that phrase. Do they know by the power of the Holy Ghost, or do they really know (possibly by a perfect knowledge)? Certainly makes for a good way to virtue signal.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

What takes more faith?

Since this is a subject that I love, i would like to post something to elicit a bit of introspection.

A man prays and a being appears to him and identifies himself as Christ. The man is astounded, his chest burns within and every word spoken from this being is profound. The man then assumes:

The being is Christ.
The words were true because his chest burned and it was "Christ" that said them.

Then he goes goes nuts:

He assumes:
He is a chosen and special person.
He posts a video on youtube and enjoys the fanfare.
He is a Prophet, with a calling

so..what does he know from this experience?

He knows that he had an experience that is not of this world. He knows that he learned things which changed his understanding. He knows that prayer is effectual for contacting those that are beyond this world. He knows that he feels better than he did prior, lighter, and much more hopeful. He is encouraged.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from believing , I am trying to introduce the difference between belief and knowledge.

As to actual spiritual knowledge , it can be obtained. Consider your five senses that you trust for your "knowledge". Consider how certain you are of the existence of your keyboard. Why are you so certain? Why do you 'know' it is there? your sense of touch and sight register it in your mind that it exists. You KNOW it is there under your fingertips.

Spiritual knowledge is more certain than the five senses give to you. Spiritual knowledge , when received, can never ever be doubted, questioned nor forgotten , in the very least. You can never come to doubt it no matter what happens afterwards. Knowledge of specific concepts, not just a burning in your bosom. Elaborate and specific.

The means of how this happens is due to another sense of perception that is not one of the five. It's not a psychic thing, it is a sense that is God given. When God/HG/Christ reveals something to you in this manner, it does not come in words, it comes in a train of understanding wherein 5 seconds of one experience cannot be written in 10 pages. I could call it a download, but that would diminish it. You experience it. It is now a part of you forever.

How is this accomplished?

You must remove all of the negativity within you. When this is done, you will know it because you will not have a negative thought about anyone or anything, at all. When your slate is clean, that spiritual sense functions and the richness of truth, as it is, can be given. This process can take a lifetime to get your slate clean but it is done by looking inwards, not outwards. Prayer, fasting, and consistent meditation and stillness. If you believe that meditation is not good, you are believing incorrectly. 'They' are very frightened of people that discover what I am addressing here and 'they' are the ones that teach against meditation. They want you to remain in guilt and fear so that you will look to men for salvation.

well... dunno what more to say. Good luck fellow searchers. God awaits us ALL with perfect patience. It's up to us as to when we sincerely wish to return to him.

edit to add:

At times, spiritual knowledge is given before your slate is completely clean. They typically come as a burst... very very short. Afterwards, you will describe it as : I'm not sure how, but I KNOW... . If , after time, you doubt it, or question it, then it is not spiritual knowledge....that's the test.

These recent spate of self help threads and comments at this forum disturbs me.

I keep expecting another mega discussion about q polygamy cianons and dead lds leader mao criticism session

Good & Global wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 8:23 pm

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 8:21 pm I think of the young children who go up to the microphone during fast and testimony meeting, having been taught to lie by saying, “I know the church is true,” when in truth they really know very little and have only begun to approach a belief in the testimony of their parents and church leaders.

I think of the old teachings (maybe they’re still teaching this, I don’t know) to missionaries to bear and share testimony by saying, “I know,” when in truth they are just following instructions on how to be an effective proselyter.

So many stand in front of others and boldly declare that they know spiritual knowledge without realizing and remembering that Jesus said more blessed are they who have not seen and yet have BELIEVED.

Very salient points. For the record, yes they still do all of these baffling practices. I don't know why anyone would want to ever convince people of the supposed truth by faking experiences or spiritual knowledge.

Is a child faking it when playing house?

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 8:21 pm I think of the young children who go up to the microphone during fast and testimony meeting, having been taught to lie by saying, “I know the church is true,” when in truth they really know very little and have only begun to approach a belief in the testimony of their parents and church leaders.

I think of the old teachings (maybe they’re still teaching this, I don’t know) to missionaries to bear and share testimony by saying, “I know,” when in truth they are just following instructions on how to be an effective proselyter.

So many stand in front of others and boldly declare that they know spiritual knowledge without realizing and remembering that Jesus said more blessed are they who have not seen and yet have BELIEVED.

I stopped that from happening in my ward by speaking up. I wonder why others still tolerate it but think it is somebody else s job

Ether 12:6
6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

How do I know that that those who say they don't know but only believe have not yet received a witness after the trial of their faith? Is there a witness of the Holy Ghost? Many outside the church wonder if that warm feeling that tells you that it is true is not just the person wanting to feel that way is only made up by that person. Does the Holy Ghost exist? Is it possible to receive a witness of the Holy Spirit? Can one know the truth by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost? I believe they can. When I get those feelings that at times can be so strong and powerful, I believe that God is telling me what is true. Can I prove it to others? NO! I can only bear witness of it and hope that the Holy Ghost will bear the same witness to those who hear my testimony. What witness does God give to most people after the trial of their faith. Does He appear to most of us? Does he give most of us visions or sent us an angel to bear testimony? If He did, would that convince others who hear his testimony? The Holy Ghost is a major means of how God bears witness of the truth.

Moroni 10:5
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Interesting topic. One of the tasks the Lord gave me was to document my testimony of the "evolution of eternal life" I have had some revelations. The very first step in my documenting was separating my "knowledge" from my "beliefs" and my "truths" and my "understandings" and my "assumptions and corollary feelings". It was hard.

I mean god says something but in a context and then I extrapolate to what and why he said it.

A great example was on here a few weeks ago. Kirkland.rm posted one of those nice feely stories of one of the prophets that met Joseph and had a profound experience at 21 y/o. It sounded beautiful but he took away about a dozen "knowledge points" or "facts", none of which were expressed in the experience. He knew god lived and supported Joseph Smith and the BoM, but he extrapolated many more things that, well were at best beliefs that he claimed were facts or knowledge about the restoration, the saints, etc...

I guess we all do that. Trying to unwrap that list from a few dozen simple revelations was eye opening to me. I had to start the paper with a list of definitions of my level of understanding, I called it my "truth levels", I ended up with 7 or so but in the end it was more like 4 as the others were hard to classify.

When people say that they know the church is true etc, what they really mean is that they are convinced.
If an angel appeared to me and said "Bro. Hood, the church is true"; that would convince me that it was true, but I still wouldn't know for sure. All I would know was that an angel told me it was true, but I wouldn't know for certain that the angel was telling me the truth.
If the Spirit witnesses to us, it convinces us, but we still don't know of ourselves.

I have always tried to avoid the phrase "I know" in testimonies as much as I can. But let's not get epistemological on yo a55.

Niemand wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:56 am I have always tried to avoid the phrase "I know" in testimonies as much as I can. But let's not get epistemological on yo a55.

Hey, why isn’t ep&@!?¥”gical not censored either? Pretty sure that’s a bad word, too.

Jonesy wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 3:39 am

Niemand wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:56 am I have always tried to avoid the phrase "I know" in testimonies as much as I can. But let's not get epistemological on yo a55.

Hey, why isn’t ep&@!?¥”gical not censored either? Pretty sure that’s a bad word, too.

"Piss" appears in the King James Bible a lot.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/piss/
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/pisseth/

Robin Hood wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:53 am When people say that they know the church is true etc, what they really mean is that they are convinced.
If an angel appeared to me and said "Bro. Hood, the church is true"; that would convince me that it was true, but I still wouldn't know for sure. All I would know was that an angel told me it was true, but I wouldn't know for certain that the angel was telling me the truth.
If the Spirit witnesses to us, it convinces us, but we still don't know of ourselves.

good point. Lets say in the depths one day you find yourself standing in the presence of the Lord. He is behind a veil of pure light and speaks to you and tells you all will be well and you feel his overwhelming love. What do you really know besides a god exists? Is he a man, is he Christ, is he real in the physical sense, is the gospel real, does the church have the priesthood? Even then it happens in another realm and is impossible to describe. Over time you think about it share it a few times and everyone says you're nuts or ignores you. It shakes you to your core for sure and you know there is a supernatural power that brings love and peace, everything else you simply believe and hope. Then later many little things come by revelation, yet nothing is black and white, feelings, knowledge, scriptures come alive. But what do you really know? Excellent point.

I don't think that this life is truly about "knowing" in the physical sense, it is about evidence, faith, and knowing in the spirit, which is deeply buried within us and us alone. The result, is weight is removed from the knowledge and weight is added as the pressure to perform increases and lastly you find yourself more alone with god.

I would like to bear my testimony. I know the OP is wrong. I know the church is true. I know the priesthood ban was from God. I know I will get 10 fifteen-year-olds in heaven.

Lies beget more lies. We teach our children to lie at a much earlier age than primary by telling them to go to an old, fat and prosperous, white guy in a red suit who lures children in with gifts and sit on his lap where his pole is ready and pointing north and if you do, you'll be rewarded. Once you're pimped out to Grandpa Epstein and his "north pole", it's all downhill from there, lol.

Santa clause. Anagram of satan

Robin Hood wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:53 am When people say that they know the church is true etc, what they really mean is that they are convinced.
If an angel appeared to me and said "Bro. Hood, the church is true"; that would convince me that it was true, but I still wouldn't know for sure. All I would know was that an angel told me it was true, but I wouldn't know for certain that the angel was telling me the truth.
If the Spirit witnesses to us, it convinces us, but we still don't know of ourselves.

How would you know for yourself?