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Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 1:29 pm
by Severus
4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 8:21 pm
I think of the young children who go up to the microphone during fast and testimony meeting, having been taught to lie by saying, “I know the church is true,” when in truth they really know very little and have only begun to approach a belief in the testimony of their parents and church leaders.
I think of the old teachings (maybe they’re still teaching this, I don’t know) to missionaries to bear and share testimony by saying, “I know,” when in truth they are just following instructions on how to be an effective proselyter.
So many stand in front of others and boldly declare that they know spiritual knowledge without realizing and remembering that Jesus said more blessed are they who have not seen and yet have BELIEVED.
Properly done, testimony meeting is not supposed to get turned into a "teaching meeting", and according to the handbook, at least last I knew, the meeting is reserved for the testimonies of those over the age of 12. I have never know this rule to be enforced, though. Primary is the "teaching meeting" where children under this age can properly learn to bear a testimony, and without the parents.
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 1:39 pm
by CuriousThinker
Severus wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 1:29 pm
4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 8:21 pm
I think of the young children who go up to the microphone during fast and testimony meeting, having been taught to lie by saying, “I know the church is true,” when in truth they really know very little and have only begun to approach a belief in the testimony of their parents and church leaders.
I think of the old teachings (maybe they’re still teaching this, I don’t know) to missionaries to bear and share testimony by saying, “I know,” when in truth they are just following instructions on how to be an effective proselyter.
So many stand in front of others and boldly declare that they know spiritual knowledge without realizing and remembering that Jesus said more blessed are they who have not seen and yet have BELIEVED.
Properly done, testimony meeting is not supposed to get turned into a "teaching meeting", and according to the handbook, at least last I knew, the meeting is reserved for the testimonies of those over the age of 12. I have never know this rule to be enforced, though. Primary is the "teaching meeting" where children under this age can properly learn to bear a testimony, and without the parents.
The current handbook says, "Young children are welcome to bear testimony in fast and testimony meeting. It may be best for them to learn to do so at home until they can bear testimony without help from others."
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 1:54 pm
by Severus
According to Joseph Smith, the main number one difference between the church he set up and all other churches is the gift of the Holy Ghost conferred after baptism and upon entrance into said church. With that gift, according to Moroni, one may know the truth of all things. Other members of other churches, with their creedalism ( which Jesus said were abominations) can only have a belief.
It is pretty easy to believe, and even have very strong beliefs, that Jesus is the Christ. But to have absolute knowledge that Jesus is the Christ requires a manifestation from the Holy Ghost. You know, that one guy whose revealed knowledge that you go up against can send you to perdition? Jesus doesn't really just want us to believe in him. He wants us to know him.
According to Alma, the journey to knowledge revealed begins with a willingness to believe. Then, properly nourished, this willingness to believe eventually becomes swallowed up in knowledge. Like a tiny shaft of light growing into the all encompassing light of noon day. We are living far below our privileges if we settle for merely believing when knowledge is to be had and should be our goal. Jesus never intended us to merely believe and just stop there.
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 2:00 pm
by Severus
CuriousThinker wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 1:39 pm
Severus wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 1:29 pm
4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 8:21 pm
I think of the young children who go up to the microphone during fast and testimony meeting, having been taught to lie by saying, “I know the church is true,” when in truth they really know very little and have only begun to approach a belief in the testimony of their parents and church leaders.
I think of the old teachings (maybe they’re still teaching this, I don’t know) to missionaries to bear and share testimony by saying, “I know,” when in truth they are just following instructions on how to be an effective proselyter.
So many stand in front of others and boldly declare that they know spiritual knowledge without realizing and remembering that Jesus said more blessed are they who have not seen and yet have BELIEVED.
Properly done, testimony meeting is not supposed to get turned into a "teaching meeting", and according to the handbook, at least last I knew, the meeting is reserved for the testimonies of those over the age of 12. I have never know this rule to be enforced, though. Primary is the "teaching meeting" where children under this age can properly learn to bear a testimony, and without the parents.
The current handbook says, "Young children are welcome to bear testimony in fast and testimony meeting. It may be best for them to learn to do so at home until they can bear testimony without help from others."
Thanks for the heads up and I guess this is some sort of a compromise?
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 2:03 pm
by Fight for the right
onefour1 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:39 pm
Ether 12:6
6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.
How do I know that that those who say they don't know but only believe have not yet received a witness after the trial of their faith? Is there a witness of the Holy Ghost? Many outside the church wonder if that warm feeling that tells you that it is true is not just the person wanting to feel that way is only made up by that person. Does the Holy Ghost exist? Is it possible to receive a witness of the Holy Spirit? Can one know the truth by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost? I believe they can. When I get those feelings that at times can be so strong and powerful, I believe that God is telling me what is true. Can I prove it to others? NO! I can only bear witness of it and hope that the Holy Ghost will bear the same witness to those who hear my testimony. What witness does God give to most people after the trial of their faith. Does He appear to most of us? Does he give most of us visions or sent us an angel to bear testimony? If He did, would that convince others who hear his testimony? The Holy Ghost is a major means of how God bears witness of the truth.
Moroni 10:5
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may
know the truth of all things.
Thanks your right on
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 2:07 pm
by Robin Hood
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 12:32 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:53 am
When people say that they know the church is true etc, what they really mean is that they are convinced.
If an angel appeared to me and said "Bro. Hood, the church is true"; that would convince me that it was true, but I still wouldn't know for sure. All I would know was that an angel told me it was true, but I wouldn't know for certain that the angel was telling me the truth.
If the Spirit witnesses to us, it convinces us, but we still don't know of ourselves.
How would you know for yourself?
The point I'm trying to make is that we really on others. We become convinced based on who we believe. So if the angel testifies to us we become convinced because we choose to believe the angel. We could reject the angel's message, just as Laman & Lemuel did.
So we can never really know for sure.
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 2:44 pm
by nightlight
Robin Hood wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:07 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 12:32 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:53 am
When people say that they know the church is true etc, what they really mean is that they are convinced.
If an angel appeared to me and said "Bro. Hood, the church is true"; that would convince me that it was true, but I still wouldn't know for sure. All I would know was that an angel told me it was true, but I wouldn't know for certain that the angel was telling me the truth.
If the Spirit witnesses to us, it convinces us, but we still don't know of ourselves.
How would you know for yourself?
The point I'm trying to make is that we really on others. We become convinced based on who we believe. So if the angel testifies to us we become convinced because we choose to believe the angel. We could reject the angel's message, just as Laman & Lemuel did.
So we can never really know for sure.
The function of the Holy Ghost is to reveal truth
You're not relying on a person, but a god that is capable of conveying reality
"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 3:27 pm
by Robin Hood
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:44 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:07 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 12:32 pm
How would you know for yourself?
The point I'm trying to make is that we really on others. We become convinced based on who we believe. So if the angel testifies to us we become convinced because we choose to believe the angel. We could reject the angel's message, just as Laman & Lemuel did.
So we can never really know for sure.
The function of the Holy Ghost is to reveal truth
You're not relying on a person, but a god that is capable of conveying reality
"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
I know all of that. But we are still convinced rather than "know".
I believe God created the universe. In fact I am convinced he did. However, I wasn't there and can't remember it, so I have to believe what I'm told, even by God himself.
But because I didn't witness the creation myself, I cannot know for sure, but I am convinced God isn't lying about it.
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 3:38 pm
by nightlight
Robin Hood wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 3:27 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:44 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:07 pm
The point I'm trying to make is that we really on others. We become convinced based on who we believe. So if the angel testifies to us we become convinced because we choose to believe the angel. We could reject the angel's message, just as Laman & Lemuel did.
So we can never really know for sure.
The function of the Holy Ghost is to reveal truth
You're not relying on a person, but a god that is capable of conveying reality
"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
I know all of that. But we are still convinced rather than "know".
I believe God created the universe. In fact I am convinced he did. However, I wasn't there and can't remember it, so I have to believe what I'm told, even by God himself.
But because I didn't witness the creation myself, I cannot know for sure, but I am convinced God isn't lying about it.
I get what you're saying, but the Holy Ghost is capable of crossing the "blood–brain barrier" to actual Knowing
This is why it is unforgivable to deny the Holy Ghost
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 10:28 pm
by sushi_chef
Ｐｒｏｌｌｙ、ultimate testimony would be calling&election made sure thing, receiving lord's manifestation ..
for its said,
" 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? "
"24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
" matthew 16
no??!!
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 29th, 2023, 10:55 pm
by TheDuke
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 3:38 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 3:27 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 2:44 pm
The function of the Holy Ghost is to reveal truth
You're not relying on a person, but a god that is capable of conveying reality
"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
I know all of that. But we are still convinced rather than "know".
I believe God created the universe. In fact I am convinced he did. However, I wasn't there and can't remember it, so I have to believe what I'm told, even by God himself.
But because I didn't witness the creation myself, I cannot know for sure, but I am convinced God isn't lying about it.
I get what you're saying, but the Holy Ghost is capable of crossing the "blood–brain barrier" to actual Knowing
This is why it is unforgivable to deny the Holy Ghost
I don't see the denying the HG to be denying a normal spiritual insight. The HG has many missions. One is to provide C&E and do so in personage. Perhaps denying that? But Joseph said it would also require murder as well. So, it must be even more.
Still even a direct revelation is complex. If you're in the presence of god, your quickened into another realm/dimension/space/body. It is complex to bring the memories back. Look at Joseph and how it took decades to distill on his first vision (visitation). Even that is complex.
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 30th, 2023, 11:53 am
by Shawn Henry
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 3:38 pm the Holy Ghost is capable of crossing the "blood–brain barrier" to actual Knowing
So is Satan.
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 30th, 2023, 11:56 am
by nightlight
Shawn Henry wrote: ↑July 30th, 2023, 11:53 am
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 3:38 pm the Holy Ghost is capable of crossing the "blood–brain barrier" to actual Knowing
So is Satan.
Satan is the deceiver
He deceives.....
So.... No lol
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 30th, 2023, 12:33 pm
by Shawn Henry
nightlight wrote: ↑July 30th, 2023, 11:56 am
Shawn Henry wrote: ↑July 30th, 2023, 11:53 am
nightlight wrote: ↑July 29th, 2023, 3:38 pm the Holy Ghost is capable of crossing the "blood–brain barrier" to actual Knowing
So is Satan.
Satan is the deceiver
He deceives.....
So.... No lol
Yeah, no kidding, but how does he deceive? He counterfeits the feelings of the spirit. You could have an angel in front of you in plain day and think that you know, but you still don't know whose side that angel was on.
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 30th, 2023, 1:54 pm
by nightlight
Shawn Henry wrote: ↑July 30th, 2023, 12:33 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑July 30th, 2023, 11:56 am
Satan is the deceiver
He deceives.....
So.... No lol
Yeah, no kidding, but how does he deceive? He counterfeits the feelings of the spirit. You could have an angel in front of you in plain day and think that you know, but you still don't know whose side that angel was on.
If you've never experienced first hand presence of Christ.... Yes, Satan can counterfeit
But if you've been in the actual presence of the Christ/Holy Ghost/Angels, then it's not something Satan can reproduce
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."
If you don't understand this, then you lack experience and understanding of the power of God.
You need to give more credit to God. We are not without tools
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 30th, 2023, 2:01 pm
by oneClimbs
4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 4:38 pm
Growing up in the church, there is great pressure to know. Have you noticed?
I just wanted to share that I have found a new sense of Freedom in letting go of the need to say "I know" and embracing the truth, which is simply that I believe.
Anybody else know what I'm talking about? Have you experienced this new way of approaching your faith in God and the various aspects of the gospel?
Lecture 6:4 "Such was and always will be the situation of the saints of God, that
unless they have an actual knowledge that the course that they are pursuing is according to the will of God, they will grow weary in their minds and faint; for such has been and always will be the opposition in the hearts of unbelievers and those that know not God, against the pure and unadulterated religion of heaven, (the only thing which ensures eternal life,) that they will persecute, to the uttermost, all that worship God according to his revelations, receive the truth in the love of it, and submit themselves to be guided and directed by his will, and drive them to such extremities that nothing short of an
actual knowledge of their being the favorites of heaven, and of their having embraced that order of things which God has established for the redemption of man, will enable them to exercise that confidence in him necessary for them to overcome the world, and obtain that crown of glory which is laid up for them that fear God."
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 30th, 2023, 2:06 pm
by Shawn Henry
nightlight wrote: ↑July 30th, 2023, 1:54 pm
If you've never experienced first hand presence of Christ.... Yes, Satan can counterfeit
But if you've been in the actual presence of the Christ/Holy Ghost/Angels, then it's not something Satan can reproduce
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."
If you don't understand this, then you lack experience and understanding of the power of God.
You need to give more credit to God. We are not without tools
Which is where we are all at, or at least 99.99% of us. If none of us has experienced Christ firsthand, we don't know.
So, if you're saying it's with experience that we can know, I agree. We're just not there yet.
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 30th, 2023, 5:00 pm
by p8riot
4Joshua8 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 8:21 pm
I think of the young children who go up to the microphone during fast and testimony meeting, having been taught to lie by saying, “I know the church is true,” when in truth they really know very little and have only begun to approach a belief in the testimony of their parents and church leaders.
I cringe every time a parent takes their kid up there and whispers in their ear. So cultish!
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: July 30th, 2023, 5:09 pm
by Dave62
To 'know' that Jesus is the Christ is one of the spiritual gifts. We ought to pray earnestly for it.
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: December 11th, 2023, 7:20 pm
by Thinker
So it is!
And BofM: “ Ether 11:14 reads,
“Moron did that which was wicked.”
Why aren’t comedians making use of this stuff?
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: December 11th, 2023, 7:28 pm
by FrankOne
I would think that I would have remembered that as a kid in sunday school because i would have been the one laughing.
mandela effect anyone? Like Lion and lamb change. Yah...it's a thing. or "Two men in a bed, one will be taken". I could give 20 examples but who would consider any of them?
Re: "I know" vs. "I believe"
Posted: December 11th, 2023, 9:47 pm
by Fred
Child:
I know this church is true. I love my mommy and daddy. Amen
Missionary:
I know by the power of the Holy Ghost that this church is true.
Honest person:
I have studied and prayed. There is much that I neither know or understand. I do know that miracles happen. I do not actually know how or why. I do believe the scriptures and have received spiritual confirmation of some particular points.
Arrogant wannabe liked:
I know this church is true as sure as I am standing here. There is zero doubt in my mind.
Lying bastard:
I hear the Savior's voice every time I hear RMN speak.
Church broke:
I know that RMN speaks for God. I don't need to study, ponder, or pray. If God wants me to know, RMN will announce it.
Fraud:
We have prayed often for Big Pharma to create a clot shot. And here it is. Never mind the myocarditis, it is a godsend.
So it is!