LDS Freedom Forum

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 6:49 pm Of course, this isn’t from the church or taught by the church. This diagram comes from anti Mormons.

I've seen material like this from the church many times used by missionaries etc. The only difference is that Outer Darkness isn't often depicted on these diagrams.

But this particular diagram also has no depiction of Spirit Prison/Spirit World (pre-Degrees) or Pre-Existence Choices. The degrees within the Celestial Kingdom are not well described, nor as Gkearney points out is there anything about progression.

Mamabear wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 5:08 pm And lower than liars… Including those that lie and steal and get rich in the name of God. How about you?
IMG_4460.jpeg

I’ve been labeled as a SOP (son of perdition) a few times . The term apostate is meant to create psychological boundaries that keep us confined within the parameters outlined by our overlords.

Reminds me of that movie The Village by M. Night Shyamalan.

Here’s a brief summary-

An Amish-style community lives cut off from the outside world by the woods, in which they believe dangerous creatures exist. They have an uneasy truce with the creatures - if they stay out of the woods, they are left unharmed.

The villagers don't live in 1897, but the present (2004). The village is actually a project devised by wealthy John Walker (Elder Walker). The village elders all suffered tragic losses in their modern lives. To escape violence, they started a village inside a wildlife preserve, walled off from society. The elders masquerade as the monsters to keep the younger and unknowing members within village boundaries.

“Apostates. Ex-members of the Mormon Church who believe doctrines contrary to the current teachings of the LDS Church or those whose lifestyle does not reflect that of a Latter-day Saint According to D&C 41:1 apostates will receive the heaviest of God’s cursings. Can also include those who align themselves with Apostate Christianity. According to twelfth President Spencer W. Kimball, “ Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 462.). Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote, “It follows that if members of the Church believe false doctrines; if they accept false educational theories; if they fall into the practices and abominations of the sectarians; if they use tea, coffee, tobacco or liquor; if they fail to pay an honest tithing; if they find fault with the Lord’s anointed; if they play cards; if they do anything contrary to the standards of personal righteousness required by the gospel – then to that extent they are in personal apostasy and need to repent” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 45).

“When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

NeveR wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 10:23 pm As some of you might know I'm a fairly recent "convert" to Mormonism (I know we aren't supposed to use that word, but if it was good enough pre-Nelson, I don't see why it isn't now).

I'm in the church because I met my soulmate & he happens to be a Mormon, bic, from a fairly long line. He didn't ask me to join - he is willing for me to find my own way. But after being married a while and after several years of studying the subject I decided to be baptized.

I wasn't 100% convinced, but it felt right at the time.

Then the scamdemic happened..

And the church's response to it...

And since then I have found more and more things about the LDS faith & teaching I just don't understand, or which seem to be in pure contradiction to each other.

Right now I'm genuinely confused, frustrated, trying to make coherent sense of it all.

This discussion illustrates well some of my problems.

* We're told in some places that everyone is 'saved' or savable, whatever creed they believe in - apart from the sons of perdition.

* But yet we're also told (as someone quotes today on another thread) that only being baptised and "believing" will save us from damnation.

* We're also given different versions of what "damnation" even means.

And right here, we have people who have apparently been taught very different things about what apostasy means.

How are these and the many other anomalies and contradictions to be resolved?

I'm asking as someone who has no hate or bitterness - just a desire to understand & find truth

These things happen because of inconsistent teachings of things that are not doctrine. The definition of apostasy has been hijacked and changed in the church like many other words. I was taught more along the lines of what Bruce McConkie taught in the above quote. Others weren’t.

Something I wish I would’ve done as a member was to use more critical thinking. Doubt things that don’t make sense. Question everything! Even when those in charge tell you not to question, do it anyway. And when they say to use only church approved sources, that is a huge red flag. It’s a tactic used in mind control.
Use that beautiful mind of yours. Huge love to you.

NeveR wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 10:23 pm As some of you might know I'm a fairly recent "convert" to Mormonism (I know we aren't supposed to use that word, but if it was good enough pre-Nelson, I don't see why it isn't now).

I'm in the church because I met my soulmate & he happens to be a Mormon, bic, from a fairly long line. He didn't ask me to join - he is willing for me to find my own way. But after being married a while and after several years of studying the subject I decided to be baptized.

I wasn't 100% convinced, but it felt right at the time.

Then the scamdemic happened..

And the church's response to it...

And since then I have found more and more things about the LDS faith & teaching I just don't understand, or which seem to be in pure contradiction to each other.

Right now I'm genuinely confused, frustrated, trying to make coherent sense of it all.

This discussion illustrates well some of my problems.

* We're told in some places that everyone is 'saved' or savable, whatever creed they believe in - apart from the sons of perdition.

* But yet we're also told (as someone quotes today on another thread) that only being baptised and "believing" will save us from damnation.

* We're also given different versions of what "damnation" even means.

And right here, we have people who have apparently been taught very different things about what apostasy means.

How are these and the many other anomalies and contradictions to be resolved?

I'm asking as someone who has no hate or bitterness - just a desire to understand & find truth

I understand your confusion. There is a great deal of contradictions. These are brought about because of the works/thoughts of man.

I was born into the church. I am a member of the church today. Remaining a member is something I will continue to be unless prompted otherwise.

The church has been a vessel, a tool ... for teaching me how to love, how to serve, how to pray. As with all tools of learning; it is simply a guide for me. When I have questions (and I have many) I free my mind of all outside distractions and I ask the Lord for guidance.

The church is not perfect. Many here will attest to the imperfections. I honestly believe this is necessary. Had the church not caused confusion in my heart, I never would have searched for a deeper understanding. I would have continued my path of rote prayers and service.

The leadership of the church (in my honest opinion) are causing turmoil amongst the members. Families, who are not strong in the covenants to each other, are bickering and splitting up.

I used to get upset that they are not teaching pure truths, as I would expect from those who are deemed to be in direct contact with the Lord.

Now I understand that we need these moments. We need to question in order to grow.

The church is not perfect. I do not believe it was ever meant to be perfect. That would lead to stagnant spiritual growth.

*side note* As with all organizations... there are very, very good people and very, very bad people. Our leadership has both.

Mamabear, you keep showing us definitions and quotes about what apostasy is, but none of those say that apostates are going to outer darkness after this life, or that apostates are sons of perdition or that they have sinned against the Holy Ghost. Keep searching, I guess. See if you can find something from the church that teaches that. I don’t think you’ll find it.

Mamabear wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 5:08 pm And lower than liars… Including those that lie and steal and get rich in the name of God. How about you?

I know that you jest... self deprecation is not something I see in you.

This chart is accurate depending on what you call "apostacy" ... Stepping away from the church is not the same as falling way from the teachings of our Saviour.

Your degree of glory or no glory is not determined until judgement day where you will have a defense with an advocate (Christ).

Anyone who tells you that your fate is set before judgement day does not have an understanding of the plan of salvation.

Acts 17:11-12 or the entire chapter, actually

Not sure why one needs a password on the church site to read scripture. Obviously the Jews in Berea didn’t need one, nor did Paul & Silas as ‘outsiders’.

https://site.churchofjesuschrist.org/st ... 7?lang=eng

I am not inclined to believe any of that. God desires everyone to be saved. In Christ he made it possible for everyone to be saved. Some of us may have to be purged from our sins first before we can live with God. We will suffer the consequences of our sins, but not our theology. Jesus will heal everyone who turns to Him and we have an eternity for the Hound of Heaven to pursue us and bring us back. God doesn’t give up on anyone.

My assumption is that anyone that committed the unpardonable sin would know it.

Because they would never again feel the spirit to even the slightest degree.


Once again, this is an assumption, not doctrine.

Chip wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 9:44 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 9:33 pm

Chip wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 8:22 pm Those who suppose they are moving towards the golden orb are the ones most blinded by the craftiness of men.


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apparently from you negative comment it isn't you so you wouldn't know would you? Conjecture or jealousy? BTW as said the diagram is full of errors but the end game is pretty close. If you don't see it as the end game then look in the mirror as you may disagree on the path (man in white vs. iron rod) but if you don't know the end game then you cannot get there, at this time anyway.

I know many stalwart leadership members who REFUSE to understand the vaxx issue. They are blinded by the craftiness of men. What else am I supposed to think? They are not progressing.

well if you don't trust the church leaders, ok, but saying there isn't exaltation and how that is some how related to vaxing I don't think is any sort of supportable logic. That's like saying because the king backed the Pharaoh god never did talk to Abraham. or because the apostles couldn't heal and didn't understand how to cast out the devils w/o fasting that Jesus was a fake. Come on think through a logical argument, what about Joseph and the copywrite of the BoM or Adam getting booted from GoE.......................... could go on, don't think vaxxing for covid makes the list of real issues of god's leaders making good decisions. Stupid, yes IMO but minor. What about building Kirkland temple? Nauvoo? ANL laying down?

TheDuke wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:13 am

Chip wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 9:44 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 9:33 pm

apparently from you negative comment it isn't you so you wouldn't know would you? Conjecture or jealousy? BTW as said the diagram is full of errors but the end game is pretty close. If you don't see it as the end game then look in the mirror as you may disagree on the path (man in white vs. iron rod) but if you don't know the end game then you cannot get there, at this time anyway.

I know many stalwart leadership members who REFUSE to understand the vaxx issue. They are blinded by the craftiness of men. What else am I supposed to think? They are not progressing.

well if you don't trust the church leaders, ok, but saying there isn't exaltation and how that is some how related to vaxing I don't think is any sort of supportable logic. That's like saying because the king backed the Pharaoh god never did talk to Abraham. or because the apostles couldn't heal and didn't understand how to cast out the devils w/o fasting that Jesus was a fake. Come on think through a logical argument, what about Joseph and the copywrite of the BoM or Adam getting booted from GoE.......................... could go on, don't think vaxxing for covid makes the list of real issues of god's leaders making good decisions. Stupid, yes IMO but minor. What about building Kirkland temple? Nauvoo? ANL laying down?

You seem to have inferred a lot more from my post than I said.

Chip wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:18 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:13 am

Chip wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 9:44 pm


I know many stalwart leadership members who REFUSE to understand the vaxx issue. They are blinded by the craftiness of men. What else am I supposed to think? They are not progressing.

well if you don't trust the church leaders, ok, but saying there isn't exaltation and how that is some how related to vaxing I don't think is any sort of supportable logic. That's like saying because the king backed the Pharaoh god never did talk to Abraham. or because the apostles couldn't heal and didn't understand how to cast out the devils w/o fasting that Jesus was a fake. Come on think through a logical argument, what about Joseph and the copywrite of the BoM or Adam getting booted from GoE.......................... could go on, don't think vaxxing for covid makes the list of real issues of god's leaders making good decisions. Stupid, yes IMO but minor. What about building Kirkland temple? Nauvoo? ANL laying down?

You seem to have inferred a lot more from my post than I said.

well here is what you said "Those who suppose they are moving towards the golden orb are the ones most blinded by the craftiness of men"

So, to be clear your saying "those who suppose" making a claim that those who believe in the celestial "golden orb" are "supposing" or believing in false notions. "are the ones most blinded", they are stupid or deceived, and easy to fall for mans teachings. And "craftiness of me" meaning you see the teachings of the celestial as not of god but of men.

Doesn't have a thing to do with vaxxes, and my comments are that you must not accept the concepts of "heaven" stands. Nor your ability to make logic to back up the comments. This isn't rocket science, this is just throwing rocks, I guess, but at least have a target to throw and and a reason that is expoundable. But you jumped from the diagram to saying how stupid those who believe in Jesus' teachings are, at least about heaven and hell and many mansions, etc...

TheDuke wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:32 am

Chip wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:18 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:13 am

well if you don't trust the church leaders, ok, but saying there isn't exaltation and how that is some how related to vaxing I don't think is any sort of supportable logic. That's like saying because the king backed the Pharaoh god never did talk to Abraham. or because the apostles couldn't heal and didn't understand how to cast out the devils w/o fasting that Jesus was a fake. Come on think through a logical argument, what about Joseph and the copywrite of the BoM or Adam getting booted from GoE.......................... could go on, don't think vaxxing for covid makes the list of real issues of god's leaders making good decisions. Stupid, yes IMO but minor. What about building Kirkland temple? Nauvoo? ANL laying down?

You seem to have inferred a lot more from my post than I said.

well here is what you said "Those who suppose they are moving towards the golden orb are the ones most blinded by the craftiness of men"

So, to be clear your saying "those who suppose" making a claim that those who believe in the celestial "golden orb" are "supposing" or believing in false notions. "are the ones most blinded", they are stupid or deceived, and easy to fall for mans teachings. And "craftiness of me" meaning you see the teachings of the celestial as not of god but of men.

Doesn't have a thing to do with vaxxes, and my comments are that you must not accept the concepts of "heaven" stands. Nor your ability to make logic to back up the comments. This isn't rocket science, this is just throwing rocks, I guess, but at least have a target to throw and and a reason that is expoundable. But you jumped from the diagram to saying how stupid those who believe in Jesus' teachings are, at least about heaven and hell and many mansions, etc...

My comment was present tense, about today, right now.

At this point in time, church members whose minds are glued to the leadership will not apply current events to scriptures. All their thinking and speech is bounded by the limits set by the leaders' examples. They can't process covid, for example. Ether 8 is remote to them.

In fact, for these people, the church DEFINES right and wrong by its very actions. If the church promotes the UN Agenda 2030 sustainable development goals, then Agenda.2930 is RIGHT. If the church doesn't apply Ether 8's warning to current events, then such applications by members are WRONG. If the vaxx is understood to have killed family members after the prophet called it a "literal godsend", then.... there is a sustained mental impasse that amounts to paralysis.

And that diagram is in excess of what Jesus taught.

Mcconkie was mostly wrong. What you are taught is determined by what god thinks you can handle. Higher grades get more advanced lessons. The more gifted students take on more challenging work.

Freedom of religion allows apostates or nehors. That is not an issue in itself. The issue is when teachings cause wars.

While creating civil strife amidst nephites this caused wars with lamanites. It was not simply people rejecting a church org.

Long time convert here and I agree exactly with what HVDC and Wolf Woman say and NEver's concerns. The problem is alot of things in the church are more lifestyle items. We have loosely based doctrine around it but the application is always subject to church culture globally and even locally. Look no further than the interpretation by members and leaders of the church's official covid response if you want to understand more.

Philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

I have a friend who grew up Mormon. He knows a Seventy who told him that the reason tobacco, alcohol, coffee, and tea were prohibited was partly because the church didn't want its members wasting money on those things, so that they'd be more likely to tithe.

Chip wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 11:08 am I have a friend who grew up Mormon. He knows a Seventy who told him that the reason tobacco, alcohol, coffee, and tea were prohibited was partly because the church didn't want its members wasting money on those things, so that they'd be more likely to tithe.

This story is heresay and unverifiable.

The word of wisdom as received as revelation is clearly documented.

Whether you want to believe the interpretation provided by the Church of Jesus Christ of Lstter Day Saints or not is up to you but section 89 is pretty clear on alcohol and tobacco.

markharr wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 11:12 am

Chip wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 11:08 am I have a friend who grew up Mormon. He knows a Seventy who told him that the reason tobacco, alcohol, coffee, and tea were prohibited was partly because the church didn't want its members wasting money on those things, so that they'd be more likely to tithe.

This story is heresay and unverifiable.

The word of wisdom as received as revelation is clearly documented.

Whether you want to believe the interpretation provided by the Church of Jesus Christ of Lstter Day Saints or not is up to you but section 89 is pretty clear on alcohol and tobacco.

I am in full agreement with the word of wisdom. It is real and it works!

The church, making it into a hard rule, might have had additional motivations.

The word of wisdom is another prime example of this mess.

Origins
------------
Its origins came about by a question from Emma and presumably the women of the church not wanting to clean up tobacco spittle on the floors of the meeting rooms (this was in the school of the prophets where they received instruction from on high, think about that, no instruction before the instruction began for something so important) and D&C 89 was given - more as a suggestion and to show what was being done by conspiring men "[NOT] by commandment or contraint" So basically God would need to contradict this revelation in order for ongoing revelation to occur? Yes.

Practice or Application
-------------------------------------
Prophets and apostles after this revelation was given continued to drink alcohol and use tobacco products (Joseph Smith even right before his death in jail, Brigham Young, etc) presumably all the way until Heber J Grant who being addicted to many things decided not only to quit these things for himself and to impress evangelical temperance societies but made the word of wisdom into a commandment, not just for himself but for everyone else. It now included coffee and tea as interpretation of hot drinks reference. Yes there are instances where hot temperatures are actually not good for the body's gastrointestinal health on a regular basis. You can look this data up. However, this would be all items that are hot including soup, hot chocolate, apple cider, any hot liquid not just coffee or tea. This commandment on alcohol, coffee, tea, tobacco was tied to entrance into exaltation/salvation (temple)

Yet, how is the actual revelation observed today by most members globally and locally? Here is how most members believe and variances or member questions in parentheses - No alcohol (no baked in items?), no tobacco, no coffee (coffee infused items like ice cream or tiramisu? postum? iced coffee?), no tea (herbal or fruit teas?), (no caffeine? no coca cola/BYU couldn't sell it?, chocolate?), (eating meat sparingly? but it is a ward bbq, etc), (eating fruits in their season?) and (using grain?). So the majority of the text in the word of wisdom in D&C 89 is ignored in favor of the cultural/must be prophet okay with interpretation of it because if the majority of the church is following the prophet and they are doing it so it must be what the prophet wants or he would say something. Right?

Now let's consider all the things that are missing from this. Anyone can use any recreational drug as long as it is prescribed. They can also use opiods, etc. James E Talmage even I believe used heroin or something else to relax while writing Jesus the Christ.

Medical marijuana is completely okay in the church. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/chu ... e?lang=eng Obviously, we all need medication from time to time and varies on individual but there is a significant loophole in church as long as something is deemed legal.

Ongoing Revelation?
---------------------------------
The original revelation was to shine light on the designs of conspiring men. Yet what about the dangers of sugars causing much of Utah's diabetes in mormon populations? (Church owned a sugar factory.) And what about the artificial ones like aspartame, saccharin, high fructose corn syrup? Even high fructose corn syrup is being fed to bees who infuse it into supposedly natural honey.

Where is the warning about grain that is made for man yet today is full of pesticides and is genetically modified (gluten intolerance anyone?) What about all the warnings of the antiobiotics used used in our milk and meat? Any words to shine a light on the dangers of seed oils, margarine, etc? And now we have covid shots being administered to edible livestock as well as plant based foods made in factories and eating bugs? Where are all of the revelatory warnings on those conspiring designs being foisted on humankind? Mormon Crickets!

Mamabear wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 4:51 am “Apostates. Ex-members of the Mormon Church who believe doctrines contrary to the current teachings of the LDS Church or those whose lifestyle does not reflect that of a Latter-day Saint According to D&C 41:1 apostates will receive the heaviest of God’s cursings. Can also include those who align themselves with Apostate Christianity. According to twelfth President Spencer W. Kimball, “ Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 462.). Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote, “It follows that if members of the Church believe false doctrines; if they accept false educational theories; if they fall into the practices and abominations of the sectarians; if they use tea, coffee, tobacco or liquor; if they fail to pay an honest tithing; if they find fault with the Lord’s anointed; if they play cards; if they do anything contrary to the standards of personal righteousness required by the gospel – then to that extent they are in personal apostasy and need to repent” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 45).

“When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

"apostates will receive the heaviest of God's cursings." sounds pretty outer darkness to me
ahh, go jump in the lake
(of fire and brimstone)
"if they do anything contrary to the standards of personal righteousness required by the gospel..." hmm, does that include
lying, intentional practices of deliberate deception in order to maintain appearance of piety and fiscal responsibility ? ?
asking for a friend

"if members of the Church believe false doctrines"
Well, I did/have believed false doctrines" as taught by the Church" - !
until I took off the blinders-- awakened to our awful situation. Knowing better, I try to do better, as i focus on true
principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ -
so, now, I actually do "believe doctrines contrary to the current teachings [on- going restoration, ya know] of the LDS Church ---aka "church of what's happenin now.
i never thought of myself as an Apostate,
but maybe i am

Apostate is nothing more than a label and used as a weapon by those who are wrong doers themselves.

By all conventions of the word, Christ was an "apostate" relative to the church that everyone belonged to at the time. He did not agree with them. He was vocal about it. He also associated with all walks of life not just members. And some of his associations might have even landed him in the crosshairs of this new mormon mccarthyism. He was at many times labeled a heretic and said to have a devil even. Yet we believe he was right and that was right with God which is all that mattered.

Given the Savior's history of wearing a robe, sandals (basically no white shirt and tie) and having a beard - he would simply not fit the corporate cookie cutter mold of being mormon. Yet how important are those outward appearances in terms of our salvation.

Chip wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:43 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:32 am

Chip wrote: ↑July 28th, 2023, 9:18 am


You seem to have inferred a lot more from my post than I said.

well here is what you said "Those who suppose they are moving towards the golden orb are the ones most blinded by the craftiness of men"

So, to be clear your saying "those who suppose" making a claim that those who believe in the celestial "golden orb" are "supposing" or believing in false notions. "are the ones most blinded", they are stupid or deceived, and easy to fall for mans teachings. And "craftiness of me" meaning you see the teachings of the celestial as not of god but of men.

Doesn't have a thing to do with vaxxes, and my comments are that you must not accept the concepts of "heaven" stands. Nor your ability to make logic to back up the comments. This isn't rocket science, this is just throwing rocks, I guess, but at least have a target to throw and and a reason that is expoundable. But you jumped from the diagram to saying how stupid those who believe in Jesus' teachings are, at least about heaven and hell and many mansions, etc...

My comment was present tense, about today, right now.

At this point in time, church members whose minds are glued to the leadership will not apply current events to scriptures. All their thinking and speech is bounded by the limits set by the leaders' examples. They can't process covid, for example. Ether 8 is remote to them.

In fact, for these people, the church DEFINES right and wrong by its very actions. If the church promotes the UN Agenda 2030 sustainable development goals, then Agenda.2930 is RIGHT. If the church doesn't apply Ether 8's warning to current events, then such applications by members are WRONG. If the vaxx is understood to have killed family members after the prophet called it a "literal godsend", then.... there is a sustained mental impasse that amounts to paralysis.

And that diagram is in excess of what Jesus taught.

sorry you are just making negative stuff up that has nothing to do with the diagram based on teachings of "Chip" w/o mingling scripture..

And I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a 70 that knows an apostle that says (yeah love it)