LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 7:49 pm**

where did the diagram come from JWs? Muslims? Catholics? RFLDS? looks cute but doesn't represent anything ever taught that I've heard of. Hell even Tom Phillips leaving after his second anointing didn't get put on the path to outer darkness according to his statements with Holland.

More garbage. BTW the terrestrial are only those blinded that still have a testimony of Jesus as Christ, read the entire section before determining the accuracy of the bullet points there.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 7:49 pm**

Mamabear wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:44 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:42 pm
Mamabear wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:22 pm

This is what I was taught in the church.
Well I guess you were taught wrong.
Apostasy would only send you to outer darkness if you committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Ghost.

According to Joseph Smith, to commit the unpardonable sin, a man “has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it”
I get it. But I guess what the church added was if you leave the church you’re in apostasy.

Apostasy does not equal denying the Holy Ghost/ becoming a son or perdition. If it did, a person would not be allowed to be rebaptized and join the church again.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 7:52 pm**

Mamabear wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:41 pm
Original_Intent wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:28 pm That's a dumb diagram - apostasy doesn't send you to outer darkness.

Tithing and chastity are on the good path, but somehow charity got overlooked? smdh.
I was taught that apostasy does send you to outer darkness. You weren’t? Soon the church will be claiming they never taught it. Lol

I was not, and I was raised LDS in Utah in the 1970s. I was always taught that you had to have a sure knowledge (i.e. personal meeting with the Savior) and then reject the gospel. NOT apostatize from the church but from the gospel.

Something along the lines of "denying the sun shining at noonday."

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 7:54 pm**

FrankOne wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:34 pm i like the path that isn't shown...
it peels off of the straight and narrow, like the one to outer darkness but loops up to "First Estate". To scale, I think I'm a quarter inch along after my apostasy.

Lol

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 7:57 pm**

“From the LDS Church's Handbook of Instructions, Section 6.7.3:

Apostasy
…[A]postasy refers to members who:

Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Are in a same-gender marriage.
Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.”

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:00 pm**

Mamabear wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:57 pm “From the LDS Church's Handbook of Instructions, Section 6.7.3:

Apostasy
…[A]postasy refers to members who:

Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Are in a same-gender marriage.
Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.”

SO???? What has that definition to do with the inappropriate drawing?

BTW the first estate is incorrect as well but most LDS wouldn't notice it.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:02 pm**

Mamabear wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:57 pm “From the LDS Church's Handbook of Instructions, Section 6.7.3:

Apostasy
…[A]postasy refers to members who:

Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Are in a same-gender marriage.
Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.”

Looks like they've got some rewriting to do !

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:03 pm**

I am busy working on my super powers and temple body. I don't have time to worry about what religions say.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:03 pm**

TheDuke wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 8:00 pm
Mamabear wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:57 pm “From the LDS Church's Handbook of Instructions, Section 6.7.3:

Apostasy
…[A]postasy refers to members who:

Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Are in a same-gender marriage.
Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.”
SO???? What has that definition to do with the inappropriate drawing?

BTW the first estate is incorrect as well but most LDS wouldn't notice it.

SO???? I wasn’t talking to you. I was talking to another person about what I was taught.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:03 pm**

TwochurchesOnly wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:54 pm
FrankOne wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:34 pm i like the path that isn't shown...
it peels off of the straight and narrow, like the one to outer darkness but loops up to "First Estate". To scale, I think I'm a quarter inch along after my apostasy.
Lol

yah, it's kind of a funny path.... I never see anyone else on it. Lots of signs posted along the way with messages like this one: "TURN BACK, BE AFRAID, THIS IS THE PATH TO HELL" . hm.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:03 pm**

TwochurchesOnly wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 8:02 pm
Mamabear wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 7:57 pm “From the LDS Church's Handbook of Instructions, Section 6.7.3:

Apostasy
…[A]postasy refers to members who:

Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
Are in a same-gender marriage.
Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.”
Looks like they've got some rewriting to do !

I think that’s the pre 2020 version. lol

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:05 pm**

Ymarsakar wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 8:03 pm I am busy working on my super powers and temple body. I don't have time to worry about what religions say.

Like in Legend of Zelda?

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:18 pm**

"It seems that history continues to teach us: You can leave the Church, but you can’t leave it alone. The basic reason for this is simple. Once someone has received a witness of the Spirit and accepted it, he leaves neutral ground. One loses his testimony only by listening to the promptings of the evil one, and Satan’s goal is not complete when a person leaves the Church, but when he comes out in open rebellion against it."
"In addition to attacking our sacred beliefs, some former members speak evil of the Brethren. Joseph Smith received his share of this criticism from the dissidents of his day. The Lord’s revelation to him is applicable to us today: “Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them. “But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.” (D&C 121:16–17.) -- Bishop Glenn L. Pace

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:22 pm**

Those who suppose they are moving towards the golden orb are the ones most blinded by the craftiness of men.

: IMG_4460.jpeg (145.61 KiB) Viewed 299 times

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:23 pm**

Godislove wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 8:18 pm "It seems that history continues to teach us: You can leave the Church, but you can’t leave it alone. The basic reason for this is simple. Once someone has received a witness of the Spirit and accepted it, he leaves neutral ground. One loses his testimony only by listening to the promptings of the evil one, and Satan’s goal is not complete when a person leaves the Church, but when he comes out in open rebellion against it."
"In addition to attacking our sacred beliefs, some former members speak evil of the Brethren. Joseph Smith received his share of this criticism from the dissidents of his day. The Lord’s revelation to him is applicable to us today: “Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them. “But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.” (D&C 121:16–17.) -- Bishop Glenn L. Pace

hm.

I like Alma Erickson's prophecy 1930. It's an excellent read. See link below

snipped :

I see our church represented by a high building, and we are in the top thereof, or the most recently constructed portion, which is very shaky; and I perceive that this last constructed portion is going to fall, and we must get down to the lower part of this great structure, which rests solidly upon its foundations. And while I am thus viewing it, the top, or last part built, does crash with a loud and fearful crash.

I see sheep grazing in the valley and on the mountain side. My Master tells me to watch them and not let them graze too far away from camp, because the sky gathers blackness and a bad storm is drawing near. I call three times, and the last time they hear me and come swiftly toward camp.
And thus does declare the Holy Ghost unto me: Beware, lest ye be destroyed with the wicked, for these things shall shortly come to pass.

https://visionsandtribulation.blogspot. ... -1930.html

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:30 pm**

Chip wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 8:22 pm Those who suppose they are moving towards the golden orb are the ones most blinded by the craftiness of men.

This diagram is completely false doctrine. It says straight and narrow way when it should say Covenant Path.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:34 pm**

Chip wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 8:22 pm Those who suppose they are moving towards the golden orb are the ones most blinded by the craftiness of men.

IMG_4460.jpeg

Hypnotized - "trusst in me - jus-s-st in me "

I never liked looking at those snake eyes in Jungle Book

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 8:40 pm**

People state their own opinions on doctrine all the time. A lot of it false.

Just because someone gave you their opinion on the plan of salvation, it doesn't make it doctrine.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 9:33 pm**

Chip wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 8:22 pm Those who suppose they are moving towards the golden orb are the ones most blinded by the craftiness of men.

IMG_4460.jpeg

apparently from you negative comment it isn't you so you wouldn't know would you? Conjecture or jealousy? BTW as said the diagram is full of errors but the end game is pretty close. If you don't see it as the end game then look in the mirror as you may disagree on the path (man in white vs. iron rod) but if you don't know the end game then you cannot get there, at this time anyway.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 9:39 pm**

Word of Wisdom issues on my part.
I love to eat donuts

and am overweight. Am I disqualified from entering the Celestial Kingdom?

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 9:44 pm**

TheDuke wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 9:33 pm
Chip wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 8:22 pm Those who suppose they are moving towards the golden orb are the ones most blinded by the craftiness of men.

IMG_4460.jpeg
apparently from you negative comment it isn't you so you wouldn't know would you? Conjecture or jealousy? BTW as said the diagram is full of errors but the end game is pretty close. If you don't see it as the end game then look in the mirror as you may disagree on the path (man in white vs. iron rod) but if you don't know the end game then you cannot get there, at this time anyway.

I know many stalwart leadership members who REFUSE to understand the vaxx issue. They are blinded by the craftiness of men. What else am I supposed to think? They are not progressing.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 9:45 pm**

No provision for either eternal progression or regression in that diagram.

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 10:23 pm**

As some of you might know I'm a fairly recent "convert" to Mormonism (I know we aren't supposed to use that word, but if it was good enough pre-Nelson, I don't see why it isn't now).

I'm in the church because I met my soulmate & he happens to be a Mormon, bic, from a fairly long line. He didn't ask me to join - he is willing for me to find my own way. But after being married a while and after several years of studying the subject I decided to be baptized.

I wasn't 100% convinced, but it felt right at the time.

Then the scamdemic happened..

And the church's response to it...

And since then I have found more and more things about the LDS faith & teaching I just don't understand, or which seem to be in pure contradiction to each other.

Right now I'm genuinely confused, frustrated, trying to make coherent sense of it all.

This discussion illustrates well some of my problems.

* We're told in some places that everyone is 'saved' or savable, whatever creed they believe in - apart from the sons of perdition.

* But yet we're also told (as someone quotes today on another thread) that only being baptised and "believing" will save us from damnation.

* We're also given different versions of what "damnation" even means.

And right here, we have people who have apparently been taught very different things about what apostasy means.

How are these and the many other anomalies and contradictions to be resolved?

I'm asking as someone who has no hate or bitterness - just a desire to understand & find truth

Posted: **July 27th, 2023, 10:44 pm**

NeveR wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 10:23 pm As some of you might know I'm a fairly recent "convert" to Mormonism (I know we aren't supposed to use that word, but if it was good enough pre-Nelson, I don't see why it isn't now).

I'm in the church because I met my soulmate & he happens to be a Mormon, bic, from a fairly long line. He didn't ask me to join - he is willing for me to find my own way. But after being married a while and after several years of studying the subject I decided to be baptized.

I wasn't 100% convinced, but it felt right at the time.

Then the scamdemic happened..

And the church's response to it...

And since then I have found more and more things about the LDS faith & teaching I just don't understand, or which seem to be in pure contradiction to each other.

Right now I'm genuinely confused, frustrated, trying to make coherent sense of it all.

This discussion illustrates well some of my problems.

* We're told in some places that everyone is 'saved' or savable, whatever creed they believe in - apart from the sons of perdition.

* But yet we're also told (as someone quotes today on another thread) that only being baptised and "believing" will save us from damnation.

* We're also given different versions of what "damnation" even means.

And right here, we have people who have apparently been taught very different things about what apostasy means.

How are these and the many other anomalies and contradictions to be resolved?

I'm asking as someone who has no hate or bitterness - just a desire to understand & find truth

Your best bet is to use the scriptures as your guide, and also your mind and heart, and also listen to the Holy Ghost.

If people are teaching things that are contrary to the scriptures, that should be a huge red flag. But sometimes the scriptures contradict themselves and you have to use your own judgment and pray and ask God.

Posted: **July 28th, 2023, 3:22 am**

NeveR wrote: ↑July 27th, 2023, 10:23 pm As some of you might know I'm a fairly recent "convert" to Mormonism (I know we aren't supposed to use that word, but if it was good enough pre-Nelson, I don't see why it isn't now).

I'm in the church because I met my soulmate & he happens to be a Mormon, bic, from a fairly long line. He didn't ask me to join - he is willing for me to find my own way. But after being married a while and after several years of studying the subject I decided to be baptized.

I wasn't 100% convinced, but it felt right at the time.

Then the scamdemic happened..

And the church's response to it...

And since then I have found more and more things about the LDS faith & teaching I just don't understand, or which seem to be in pure contradiction to each other.

Right now I'm genuinely confused, frustrated, trying to make coherent sense of it all.

This discussion illustrates well some of my problems.

* We're told in some places that everyone is 'saved' or savable, whatever creed they believe in - apart from the sons of perdition.

* But yet we're also told (as someone quotes today on another thread) that only being baptised and "believing" will save us from damnation.

* We're also given different versions of what "damnation" even means.

And right here, we have people who have apparently been taught very different things about what apostasy means.

How are these and the many other anomalies and contradictions to be resolved?

I'm asking as someone who has no hate or bitterness - just a desire to understand & find truth

I suspect many converts go through this.

Sooner or later.

And many members too.

The Church is like a large family.

We are like siblings.

And everyone sees through the glass darkly.

It is not likely that we will ever reconcile the inconsistencies that we are presented within the Church.

Like you.

I too am a convert.

And I also had my doubts when I joined.

Yet.

I was very strongly prompted to do so.

And have been blessed tremendously because of it.

Still have doubts though.

It is a constant struggle between doing what I know I should do.

And doing what I want to do.

For now.

I will continue to sojourn with the Saints.

Until God tells me otherwise.

Currently.

We do not attend our Branch.

Nor pay Tithing.

Or Zoom.

But we are still living the gospel as best we can.

Personally.

I have no concerns about my Salvation.

Because I know the Church has nothing to do with it.

Stay good with God.

And you will be fine.

At least that's what I think.

Your mileage may vary.

Sir H

LDS Freedom Forum

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