180th ANNIVERSARY OF GREAT VICTORY FOR THE FULLNESS OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST

[Shawn Henry]

I interpret "equal" in this sense to mean their authority to preside was equal to the FP's when the FP were disorganised.
In other words, if the FP ceased to function, the Twelves authority would be the authority of the FP. They would gave the right to preside over the church.
This is the condition of the church to this day. The current practice of creating an FP from amongst the Twelve is purely administrative in my view.
This is what happened.

I concede that any of the 4 equal quorums could preside, or in this case, any of the 3 remaining quorums, but I still maintain the FP was still intact.

But I think we both agree that there is not much benefit by being led by a missionary quorum who are not ordained as PSR's. Look where that has got us.

[SJR3t2]

Brigham Young admits he didn't have the priesthood required to be pres of the church. And the D&C makes clear the 12 are to go to the world aka non-believers and they have no authority in the church.

Even in Nauvoo in 1841, the Lord gave section 124 which again emphasized that the 12 had no authority within Zion, but many here will say Joseph changed that, as if the Lord misspoke.

I don't accept D&C 124 as authentic, it has many contradictions from prev revelations in the D&C along with contradicting the BoM and the Bible.

[Robin Hood]

I interpret "equal" in this sense to mean their authority to preside was equal to the FP's when the FP were disorganised.
In other words, if the FP ceased to function, the Twelves authority would be the authority of the FP. They would gave the right to preside over the church.
This is the condition of the church to this day. The current practice of creating an FP from amongst the Twelve is purely administrative in my view.
This is what happened.

I concede that any of the 4 equal quorums could preside, or in this case, any of the 3 remaining quorums, but I still maintain the FP was still intact.

But I think we both agree that there is not much benefit by being led by a missionary quorum who are not ordained as PSR's. Look where that has got us.

If we look at the various schismatic groups following the Nauvoo collapse, it is fairly obvious the missionary Quorum has been the most successful. The restored gospel established in most countries of the earth, the Book of Mormon spread throughout the world in diverse languages, membership numbered in millions. The Quorum have performed very well overall. Most of the other restoration churches seem to spend their time navel gazing and arguing over trivia. JSIII must be turning in his grave when he sees what the RLDS has descended into.

The Twelve "received the kingdom" (D&C 136:41 and have done a good job to a point, but I feel they are now in grave danger of allowing our "enemies (to) triumph over (us)" D&C136:42.
Perhaps the appearance of the OM&S is not too far distant.

[JLHPROF]

But the Twelve were equal in authority to the FP. With the demise of the FP the responsibility to preside fell to either the Twelve or the Standing High Council. However, the president in connection with the HC, William Marks, wasn't interested. In fact, he supported Rigdon even though the membership had selected the Twelve through the exercise of common consent. Marks and Rigdon were completely out of order in attempting to subvert the collective will of the Saints.

I believe the Saints were completely justified in selecting the Twelve to preside over the church. It appears the NT church came under apostolic administration after the ascension, so there was precedent.

However, I think the Twelve reorganising the FP is more problematic.

True, but all are equal in God's eyes. We have to also consider the D&C verses that say the 12 are subject to the First Presidency. So, they are equal, but yet under the First Presidency. The seventy were also mentioned as being equal to the First Presidency and the 12 and the Standing High Council, but they were also under the 12.

So, "being equal to" does not mean they have the same keys or stewardship. Also, Nauvoo was a Stake in Zion where the 12 had no authority. Their authority was outside of Nauvoo. They should have yielded to President Marks authority.

I don't think it fair to say that Marks and Rigdon went against the will of the saints. Rigdon and Young both made their case before the saints and then the saints voted for the 12. Once the vote was won by the 12, Rigdon conceded and handed over the church to the 12.

One other point, according to the D&C, the First Presidency could function as the First Presidency if any member of the First Presidency was there when the other two were absent. With Rigdon alive, the First Presidency was still intact. He had authority over the 12. I think the Lord foresaw the succession crisis when he gave that revelation.

Brigham didn't become Joseph's successor because he was in the Q12. He became head because he was the senior Apostle AND held the fullness of priesthood as a King and Priest.

That is why Rigdon didn't qualify. He was viewed to literally hold less priesthood authority.

Now you can dismiss that ordinance and even label it irrelevant. But Joseph gave it to Brigham and most of the twelve and not to Rigdon. Joseph gave "fullness of priesthood" to Brigham, never Rigdon.

You don't have to agree doctrinally. You don't even need to believe the Last Charge meeting happened as reported.

But historically speaking this is how it was understood by many at that time. Brigham even said in his discourse where the Church listened to him and Rigdon:

"I do not care who leads the church, even though [if] it were Ann Lee; but one thing I must know, and that is what God says about it. I have the keys and the means of obtaining the mind of God on the subject.
I know there are those in our midst who will seek the lives of the Twelve as they did the lives of Joseph and Hyrum. We shall ordain others and give the fullness of the priesthood, so that if we are killed the fullness of the priesthood may remain.
Joseph conferred upon our heads all the keys and powers belonging to the Apostleship which he himself held before he was taken away, and no man or set of men can get between Joseph and the Twelve in this world or in the world to come."

It wasn't about the Church, it was about priesthood authority.

[Shawn Henry]

Brigham didn't become Joseph's successor because he was in the Q12. He became head because he was the senior Apostle AND held the fullness of priesthood as a King and Priest.

That is why Rigdon didn't qualify. He was viewed to literally hold less priesthood authority.

Now you can dismiss that ordinance and even label it irrelevant. But Joseph gave it to Brigham and most of the twelve and not to Rigdon. Joseph gave "fullness of priesthood" to Brigham, never Rigdon.

You don't have to agree doctrinally. You don't even need to believe the Last Charge meeting happened as reported.

But historically speaking this is how it was understood by many at that time. Brigham even said in his discourse where the Church listened to him and Rigdon:

"I do not care who leads the church, even though [if] it were Ann Lee; but one thing I must know, and that is what God says about it. I have the keys and the means of obtaining the mind of God on the subject.
I know there are those in our midst who will seek the lives of the Twelve as they did the lives of Joseph and Hyrum. We shall ordain others and give the fullness of the priesthood, so that if we are killed the fullness of the priesthood may remain.
Joseph conferred upon our heads all the keys and powers belonging to the Apostleship which he himself held before he was taken away, and no man or set of men can get between Joseph and the Twelve in this world or in the world to come."

It wasn't about the Church, it was about priesthood authority.

Of course, if you take some men and ordain them in secret to become a prophet, priest, and king, they will be susceptible to thinking they actually are. BY never once referenced this claim publicly. Why? Probably because he knew it wasn't a strong claim. Why else not use it?

The foremost among them as far as church administration and knowledge of the revelations was President Marks who was ordained in secret before any of the 12 and was very clear that if they got rid of Rigdon the church would be without a PSR. He told them this was dangerous ground because no one else had this ordination and you had to be a PSR in order to ordain one. President Marks has been vindicated. No one since has had the ability to see their way out of a paper bag.

All the decades later, the 12 still never referred to their secret ordinations as a point of succession. They all knew.

By the way, you're completely out of accordance with the D&C and also crazy to think that God would openly structure his church and then undermine that very structure with secret ordinations. Even the same God who says he does nothing in secrecy.

[Shawn Henry]

I don't accept D&C 124 as authentic, it has many contradictions from prev revelations in the D&C along with contradicting the BoM and the Bible.

Nothing but the BoM is authentic. No other works have met the Law of Witnesses.

[SJR3t2]

I don't accept D&C 124 as authentic, it has many contradictions from prev revelations in the D&C along with contradicting the BoM and the Bible.

Nothing but the BoM is authentic. No other works have met the Law of Witnesses.

Disagree with you there. I do believe BoM is key, then perhaps the JST corrections of the Bible, and much of the D&C came about because of the D&C (which I believe most of it is authentic https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/softw ... pelsearch/), and I believe in the Book of Abraham, Articles of faith as in the wentworth letter not as LDS / Brighamites has modified it.

[Jaydes]

cruc1.PNGcruc.PNGcurc1.PNG

What's the source on that last image?

It reads that Joseph said he loves Sidney more than he has ever loved him in his whole life and that their hearts are entwined. This was right up at the end and many here claim that the rift between the two hadn't been fully healed. This shows otherwise.

Sidney Rigdon's messanger and advocate pittsburgh newspaper, article written by Ebenezer Robinson.