180th ANNIVERSARY OF GREAT VICTORY FOR THE FULLNESS OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST

[Shawn Henry]

I don't believe JS practiced polygamy.

No doubt Brigham ran with it, but how do think he duped the whole rest of the Quorum to lie about Joseph teaching it without them witnessing it for themselves that he taught it? The entire quorum said, "We know the prophet didn't teach it, but we'll lie for you President Young"? Even every single apostate member of the quorum claimed Joseph taught it.

Emma says he didn't, but his brother William and his own Mom say he did. His own First Presidency and the entire Nauvoo Stake High Council say he did.

Joseph's actions speak louder than words. He gave land deeds to many of his plural wives. Unless you can account for Joseph giving free land to teenage girls some other way? Are you maintaining that he was trying to make it look like he did? The transfer deeds are in his writing, documented while he was alive.

[SJR3t2]

I don't believe JS practiced polygamy.

No doubt Brigham ran with it, but how do think he duped the whole rest of the Quorum to lie about Joseph teaching it without them witnessing it for themselves that he taught it? The entire quorum said, "We know the prophet didn't teach it, but we'll lie for you President Young"? Even every single apostate member of the quorum claimed Joseph taught it.

Emma says he didn't, but his brother William and his own Mom say he did. His own First Presidency and the entire Nauvoo Stake High Council say he did.

Joseph's actions speak louder than words. He gave land deeds to many of his plural wives. Unless you can account for Joseph giving free land to teenage girls some other way? Are you maintaining that he was trying to make it look like he did? The transfer deeds are in his writing, documented while he was alive.

Joseph's mom doesn't say he did in her own book.

As stated in the scriptures when people are sinners YHWH lets people believe strong delusions.

[Shawn Henry]

I don't believe JS practiced polygamy.

No doubt Brigham ran with it, but how do think he duped the whole rest of the Quorum to lie about Joseph teaching it without them witnessing it for themselves that he taught it? The entire quorum said, "We know the prophet didn't teach it, but we'll lie for you President Young"? Even every single apostate member of the quorum claimed Joseph taught it.

Emma says he didn't, but his brother William and his own Mom say he did. His own First Presidency and the entire Nauvoo Stake High Council say he did.

Joseph's actions speak louder than words. He gave land deeds to many of his plural wives. Unless you can account for Joseph giving free land to teenage girls some other way? Are you maintaining that he was trying to make it look like he did? The transfer deeds are in his writing, documented while he was alive.

Joseph's mom doesn't say he did in her own book.

As stated in the scriptures when people are sinners YHWH lets people believe strong delusions.

Ok, retracting Joseph's mother, what do you say about the rest? How does BY con the entire 12 and how are those above the 12, like the First Presidency, also convinced it was Joseph.

[SJR3t2]

No doubt Brigham ran with it, but how do think he duped the whole rest of the Quorum to lie about Joseph teaching it without them witnessing it for themselves that he taught it? The entire quorum said, "We know the prophet didn't teach it, but we'll lie for you President Young"? Even every single apostate member of the quorum claimed Joseph taught it.

Emma says he didn't, but his brother William and his own Mom say he did. His own First Presidency and the entire Nauvoo Stake High Council say he did.

Joseph's actions speak louder than words. He gave land deeds to many of his plural wives. Unless you can account for Joseph giving free land to teenage girls some other way? Are you maintaining that he was trying to make it look like he did? The transfer deeds are in his writing, documented while he was alive.

Joseph's mom doesn't say he did in her own book.

As stated in the scriptures when people are sinners YHWH lets people believe strong delusions.

Ok, retracting Joseph's mother, what do you say about the rest? How does BY con the entire 12 and how are those above the 12, like the First Presidency, also convinced it was Joseph.

As stated in the scriptures when people are sinners YHWH lets people believe strong delusions and they were simply liars and knew JS was against it and I do believe that is a big thing that caused them to murder JS https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/

[Shawn Henry]

As stated in the scriptures when people are sinners YHWH lets people believe strong delusions and they were simply liars and knew JS was against it and I do believe that is a big thing that caused them to murder JS https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/

So, they were all just liars? All the leaders in the church, except Joseph, were liars? The Lord called by direct revelation nothing but liars. The first time, only one turned out to be a Judas, but this time they were all bad apples?

Sidney Rigdon, the Spokesman of the Lord, the man prophesied of nearly 4000 years ago in the Joseph the Seer prophecy. The man who stayed by Joseph's side to the very end. After staying by him till his death, he then starts defaming him with lies.

Oliver and David, called by God to witness for the BoM because of their impeccable integrity. Oh, it turns out, they were just liars. So much for their witness to the BoM.

Every single apostle, all liars.

And Joseph lied about himself to, right? The land deeds that you keep forgetting to address?

Do you think that by omitting an explanation for the land deeds, that you somehow win the debate by default? That's not how debates work.

What of the land deeds? The ones signed by Joseph in his lifetime to the women and teenage girls who just happened to be his plural wives?

Your emotions and desires are hitting and overpowering your reasoning and logic like a freight train my friend.

[Robin Hood]

As stated in the scriptures when people are sinners YHWH lets people believe strong delusions and they were simply liars and knew JS was against it and I do believe that is a big thing that caused them to murder JS https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/

So, they were all just liars? All the leaders in the church, except Joseph, were liars? The Lord called by direct revelation nothing but liars. The first time, only one turned out to be a Judas, but this time they were all bad apples?

Sidney Rigdon, the Spokesman of the Lord, the man prophesied of nearly 4000 years ago in the Joseph the Seer prophecy. The man who stayed by Joseph's side to the very end. After staying by him till his death, he then starts defaming him with lies.

Oliver and David, called by God to witness for the BoM because of their impeccable integrity. Oh, it turns out, they were just liars. So much for their witness to the BoM.

Every single apostle, all liars.

And Joseph lied about himself to, right? The land deeds that you keep forgetting to address?

Do you think that by omitting an explanation for the land deeds, that you somehow win the debate by default? That's not how debates work.

What of the land deeds? The ones signed by Joseph in his lifetime to the women and teenage girls who just happened to be his plural wives?

Your emotions and desires are hitting and overpowering your reasoning and logic like a freight train my friend.

Rigdon did not stay by Joseph's side until the very end.

[Shawn Henry]

As stated in the scriptures when people are sinners YHWH lets people believe strong delusions and they were simply liars and knew JS was against it and I do believe that is a big thing that caused them to murder JS https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/

So, they were all just liars? All the leaders in the church, except Joseph, were liars? The Lord called by direct revelation nothing but liars. The first time, only one turned out to be a Judas, but this time they were all bad apples?

Sidney Rigdon, the Spokesman of the Lord, the man prophesied of nearly 4000 years ago in the Joseph the Seer prophecy. The man who stayed by Joseph's side to the very end. After staying by him till his death, he then starts defaming him with lies.

Oliver and David, called by God to witness for the BoM because of their impeccable integrity. Oh, it turns out, they were just liars. So much for their witness to the BoM.

Every single apostle, all liars.

And Joseph lied about himself to, right? The land deeds that you keep forgetting to address?

Do you think that by omitting an explanation for the land deeds, that you somehow win the debate by default? That's not how debates work.

What of the land deeds? The ones signed by Joseph in his lifetime to the women and teenage girls who just happened to be his plural wives?

Your emotions and desires are hitting and overpowering your reasoning and logic like a freight train my friend.

Rigdon did not stay by Joseph's side until the very end.

Of course, he did. He proved it by moving to another state just to meet the law to be Joseph's VP running mate. Did you see anyone else willing to pick up and move just to help someone become President?

[Robin Hood]

So, they were all just liars? All the leaders in the church, except Joseph, were liars? The Lord called by direct revelation nothing but liars. The first time, only one turned out to be a Judas, but this time they were all bad apples?

Sidney Rigdon, the Spokesman of the Lord, the man prophesied of nearly 4000 years ago in the Joseph the Seer prophecy. The man who stayed by Joseph's side to the very end. After staying by him till his death, he then starts defaming him with lies.

Oliver and David, called by God to witness for the BoM because of their impeccable integrity. Oh, it turns out, they were just liars. So much for their witness to the BoM.

Every single apostle, all liars.

And Joseph lied about himself to, right? The land deeds that you keep forgetting to address?

Do you think that by omitting an explanation for the land deeds, that you somehow win the debate by default? That's not how debates work.

What of the land deeds? The ones signed by Joseph in his lifetime to the women and teenage girls who just happened to be his plural wives?

Your emotions and desires are hitting and overpowering your reasoning and logic like a freight train my friend.

Rigdon did not stay by Joseph's side until the very end.

Of course, he did. He proved it by moving to another state just to meet the law to be Joseph's VP running mate. Did you see anyone else willing to pick up and move just to help someone become President?

Joseph wanted him removed from the FP.
Rigdom was never the same after the incident with the mob.

[SJR3t2]

As stated in the scriptures when people are sinners YHWH lets people believe strong delusions and they were simply liars and knew JS was against it and I do believe that is a big thing that caused them to murder JS https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/

So, they were all just liars? All the leaders in the church, except Joseph, were liars? The Lord called by direct revelation nothing but liars. The first time, only one turned out to be a Judas, but this time they were all bad apples?

Sidney Rigdon, the Spokesman of the Lord, the man prophesied of nearly 4000 years ago in the Joseph the Seer prophecy. The man who stayed by Joseph's side to the very end. After staying by him till his death, he then starts defaming him with lies.

Oliver and David, called by God to witness for the BoM because of their impeccable integrity. Oh, it turns out, they were just liars. So much for their witness to the BoM.

Every single apostle, all liars.

And Joseph lied about himself to, right? The land deeds that you keep forgetting to address?

Do you think that by omitting an explanation for the land deeds, that you somehow win the debate by default? That's not how debates work.

What of the land deeds? The ones signed by Joseph in his lifetime to the women and teenage girls who just happened to be his plural wives?

Your emotions and desires are hitting and overpowering your reasoning and logic like a freight train my friend.

Someone is a liar. And we all have different beliefs of who the liars were. No, it is your emotions not mine that are getting in the way.

[Shawn Henry]

Joseph wanted him removed from the FP.
Rigdon was never the same after the incident with the mob.

And the established procedures followed and the High Council found insufficient cause to remove him. It seems everyone but Joseph was in tune enough to know that a man called by God through direct revelation by God could only be released by the same authority that called him. In any case, this is all well before Joseph picked him as a running mate, so in the end, there was still much trust there.

He was indeed not the same since his head injury by the mob, which is why the Lord in section 124 told him that he had a future mission for him and that he would heal him. Do you trust the Lord more in continuing to use him, or do you trust uninspired men telling you he is an apostate?

[Robin Hood]

Joseph wanted him removed from the FP.
Rigdon was never the same after the incident with the mob.

And the established procedures followed and the High Council found insufficient cause to remove him. It seems everyone but Joseph was in tune enough to know that a man called by God through direct revelation by God could only be released by the same authority that called him. In any case, this is all well before Joseph picked him as a running mate, so in the end, there was still much trust there.

He was indeed not the same since his head injury by the mob, which is why the Lord in section 124 told him that he had a future mission for him and that he would heal him. Do you trust the Lord more in continuing to use him, or do you trust uninspired men telling you he is an apostate?

I think you make an interesting argument. However, Rigdon clearly didn't have or fulfill any future mission. He set up his own church, which very quickly fell apart, and never had any significant influence on either the mountain or prairie Saints.

[Shawn Henry]

I think you make an interesting argument. However, Rigdon clearly didn't have or fulfill any future mission. He set up his own church, which very quickly fell apart, and never had any significant influence on either the mountain or prairie Saints.

No future mission that we initially think of. He did have the very important role of allowing the saints to pick their leadership. He was the only ordained PSR left and when BY held the vote, the saints picked a king over a prophet, thus repeating the mistake of the OT saints.

I firmly believe, however, that his future mission is still future, that he will return to the work just as the Lord told the early saints that he would send them out "again".

If you read the Joseph the Seer prophecy, it is clear that the Spokesman of the Lord spoken of has a much bigger role than what Sidney did when he was Joseph's Spokesman. When the prophecy is fulfilled in full, it will be the Seer that receives the word and the Spokesman who declares it, rather than Jospeh doing both as was done when the first portion of the prophecy was fulfilled. I believe they will both return and resume their work.

[Luke]

I think you make an interesting argument. However, Rigdon clearly didn't have or fulfill any future mission. He set up his own church, which very quickly fell apart, and never had any significant influence on either the mountain or prairie Saints.

No future mission that we initially think of. He did have the very important role of allowing the saints to pick their leadership. He was the only ordained PSR left and when BY held the vote, the saints picked a king over a prophet, thus repeating the mistake of the OT saints.

I firmly believe, however, that his future mission is still future, that he will return to the work just as the Lord told the early saints that he would send them out "again".

If you read the Joseph the Seer prophecy, it is clear that the Spokesman of the Lord spoken of has a much bigger role than what Sidney did when he was Joseph's Spokesman. When the prophecy is fulfilled in full, it will be the Seer that receives the word and the Spokesman who declares it, rather than Jospeh doing both as was done when the first portion of the prophecy was fulfilled. I believe they will both return and resume their work.

How many times must this be pointed out?

Brigham was a PROPHET, PRIEST AND KING.

Notice “Prophet”.

To be a Prophet, Priest and King is to be a Prophet, Seer, Revelator and more.

[Robin Hood]

I think you make an interesting argument. However, Rigdon clearly didn't have or fulfill any future mission. He set up his own church, which very quickly fell apart, and never had any significant influence on either the mountain or prairie Saints.

... when BY held the vote, the saints picked a king over a prophet, thus repeating the mistake of the OT saints.

A very interesting observation, and something I had never considered.
Not sure the OT Saints chose a king over a prophet though, I was under the impression they chose a king over judges. Pretty sure prophets co-existed with kings.

[Shawn Henry]

How many times must this be pointed out?

Brigham was a PROPHET, PRIEST AND KING.

Notice “Prophet”.

To be a Prophet, Priest and King is to be a Prophet, Seer, Revelator and more.

A secret ceremony that makes everyone a token prophet priest and king was not sufficient by admission of Brigham's own actions. Neither he, nor any of the 12, thought that sufficient for succession. They never even mentioned it during the succession crisis.

You only point out secret anointings when it suits your beliefs. I don't see you pointing out those after John Taylor being prophets, priests, and kings.

Also very telling how BY initiated the language of being anointed "to become such", meaning not yet a prophet, priest, and king.

You also knowingly deny section 43: 1-7, knowing full well Joseph did not appoint BY.

[Bronco73idi]

How many times must this be pointed out?

Brigham was a PROPHET, PRIEST AND KING.

Notice “Prophet”.

To be a Prophet, Priest and King is to be a Prophet, Seer, Revelator and more.

A secret ceremony that makes everyone a token prophet priest and king was not sufficient by admission of Brigham's own actions. Neither he, nor any of the 12, thought that sufficient for succession. They never even mentioned it during the succession crisis.

You only point out secret anointings when it suits your beliefs. I don't see you pointing out those after John Taylor being prophets, priests, and kings.

Also very telling how BY initiated the language of being anointed "to become such", meaning not yet a prophet, priest, and king.

You also knowingly deny section 43: 1-7, knowing full well Joseph did not appoint BY.

Just to add to your post.

Brigham Young was ordained an Apostle 14 Feb. 1835 by the Three Witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris, who were empowered to do so that same day by the laying on of hands of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood in June or July 1829 by Peter, James and John; and these were ordained Apostles by Jesus Christ (Archibald F. Bennett, Saviors on Mount Zion, p.59).

I know Brigham Young was a servant of the lord.

[Jaydes]

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[Robin Hood]

How many times must this be pointed out?

Brigham was a PROPHET, PRIEST AND KING.

Notice “Prophet”.

To be a Prophet, Priest and King is to be a Prophet, Seer, Revelator and more.

A secret ceremony that makes everyone a token prophet priest and king was not sufficient by admission of Brigham's own actions. Neither he, nor any of the 12, thought that sufficient for succession. They never even mentioned it during the succession crisis.

You only point out secret anointings when it suits your beliefs. I don't see you pointing out those after John Taylor being prophets, priests, and kings.

Also very telling how BY initiated the language of being anointed "to become such", meaning not yet a prophet, priest, and king.

You also knowingly deny section 43: 1-7, knowing full well Joseph did not appoint BY.

But he did appoint him an apostle, and as president of the Twelve. This surely qualifies as coming "in at the gate" according to D&C 43.

[SJR3t2]

cruc1.PNGcruc.PNGcurc1.PNG

Brigham Young admits he didn't have the priesthood required to be pres of the church. And the D&C makes clear the 12 are to go to the world aka non-believers and they have no authority in the church.

https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/priesthood/

[Shawn Henry]

But he did appoint him an apostle, and as president of the Twelve. This surely qualifies as coming "in at the gate" according to D&C 43.

The only thing the Lord required for the Apostles to be called was to be called by both Oliver and David. All who were, were rightfully called as the Lord prescribed, but that is just the apostleship. They are two completely different quorums. Apostles were never ordained PSR's, it wasn't part of the calling.

Section 43 is referencing the single person who is appointed to receive revelation for the whole church. That individual has to come in at that gate, meaning being appointed by the Lord through a direct revelation from the Lord.

The perfect example of this process is Hyrum. Joseph received a revelation from the Lord calling Hyrum as a PSR and being equal with Joseph. Joseph then made that revelation known to the church.

Brigham couldn't be farther from that gate.

[Shawn Henry]

Brigham Young admits he didn't have the priesthood required to be pres of the church. And the D&C makes clear the 12 are to go to the world aka non-believers and they have no authority in the church.

Even in Nauvoo in 1841, the Lord gave section 124 which again emphasized that the 12 had no authority within Zion, but many here will say Joseph changed that, as if the Lord misspoke.

[Shawn Henry]

cruc1.PNGcruc.PNGcurc1.PNG

What's the source on that last image?

It reads that Joseph said he loves Sidney more than he has ever loved him in his whole life and that their hearts are entwined. This was right up at the end and many here claim that the rift between the two hadn't been fully healed. This shows otherwise.

[Robin Hood]

But he did appoint him an apostle, and as president of the Twelve. This surely qualifies as coming "in at the gate" according to D&C 43.

The only thing the Lord required for the Apostles to be called was to be called by both Oliver and David. All who were, were rightfully called as the Lord prescribed, but that is just the apostleship. They are two completely different quorums. Apostles were never ordained PSR's, it wasn't part of the calling.

Section 43 is referencing the single person who is appointed to receive revelation for the whole church. That individual has to come in at that gate, meaning being appointed by the Lord through a direct revelation from the Lord.

The perfect example of this process is Hyrum. Joseph received a revelation from the Lord calling Hyrum as a PSR and being equal with Joseph. Joseph then made that revelation known to the church.

Brigham couldn't be farther from that gate.

But the Twelve were equal in authority to the FP. With the demise of the FP the responsibility to preside fell to either the Twelve or the Standing High Council. However, the president in connection with the HC, William Marks, wasn't interested. In fact, he supported Rigdon even though the membership had selected the Twelve through the exercise of common consent. Marks and Rigdon were completely out of order in attempting to subvert the collective will of the Saints.

I believe the Saints were completely justified in selecting the Twelve to preside over the church. It appears the NT church came under apostolic administration after the ascension, so there was precedent.

However, I think the Twelve reorganising the FP is more problematic.

[Shawn Henry]

But the Twelve were equal in authority to the FP. With the demise of the FP the responsibility to preside fell to either the Twelve or the Standing High Council. However, the president in connection with the HC, William Marks, wasn't interested. In fact, he supported Rigdon even though the membership had selected the Twelve through the exercise of common consent. Marks and Rigdon were completely out of order in attempting to subvert the collective will of the Saints.

I believe the Saints were completely justified in selecting the Twelve to preside over the church. It appears the NT church came under apostolic administration after the ascension, so there was precedent.

However, I think the Twelve reorganising the FP is more problematic.

True, but all are equal in God's eyes. We have to also consider the D&C verses that say the 12 are subject to the First Presidency. So, they are equal, but yet under the First Presidency. The seventy were also mentioned as being equal to the First Presidency and the 12 and the Standing High Council, but they were also under the 12.

So, "being equal to" does not mean they have the same keys or stewardship. Also, Nauvoo was a Stake in Zion where the 12 had no authority. Their authority was outside of Nauvoo. They should have yielded to President Marks authority.

I don't think it fair to say that Marks and Rigdon went against the will of the saints. Rigdon and Young both made their case before the saints and then the saints voted for the 12. Once the vote was won by the 12, Rigdon conceded and handed over the church to the 12.

One other point, according to the D&C, the First Presidency could function as the First Presidency if any member of the First Presidency was there when the other two were absent. With Rigdon alive, the First Presidency was still intact. He had authority over the 12. I think the Lord foresaw the succession crisis when he gave that revelation.

[Robin Hood]

But the Twelve were equal in authority to the FP. With the demise of the FP the responsibility to preside fell to either the Twelve or the Standing High Council. However, the president in connection with the HC, William Marks, wasn't interested. In fact, he supported Rigdon even though the membership had selected the Twelve through the exercise of common consent. Marks and Rigdon were completely out of order in attempting to subvert the collective will of the Saints.

I believe the Saints were completely justified in selecting the Twelve to preside over the church. It appears the NT church came under apostolic administration after the ascension, so there was precedent.

However, I think the Twelve reorganising the FP is more problematic.

True, but all are equal in God's eyes. We have to also consider the D&C verses that say the 12 are subject to the First Presidency. So, they are equal, but yet under the First Presidency. The seventy were also mentioned as being equal to the First Presidency and the 12 and the Standing High Council, but they were also under the 12.

So, "being equal to" does not mean they have the same keys or stewardship. Also, Nauvoo was a Stake in Zion where the 12 had no authority. Their authority was outside of Nauvoo. They should have yielded to President Marks authority.

I don't think it fair to say that Marks and Rigdon went against the will of the saints. Rigdon and Young both made their case before the saints and then the saints voted for the 12. Once the vote was won by the 12, Rigdon conceded and handed over the church to the 12.

One other point, according to the D&C, the First Presidency could function as the First Presidency if any member of the First Presidency was there when the other two were absent. With Rigdon alive, the First Presidency was still intact. He had authority over the 12. I think the Lord foresaw the succession crisis when he gave that revelation.

I interpret "equal" in this sense to mean their authority to preside was equal to the FP's when the FP were disorganised.
In other words, if the FP ceased to function, the Twelves authority would be the authority of the FP. They would gave the right to preside over the church.
This is the condition of the church to this day. The current practice of creating an FP from amongst the Twelve is purely administrative in my view.
This is what happened.