Oliver’s excommunication

[Dusty Wanderer]

Really? The prophet of the restoration commits adultery and everything is okay? He's back in the saddle? If any of us were to do the things Joseph did, we would be excommunicated. Instead, Joseph just kept on receiving revelations from God. Another day at the office. Or the barn in the case of Fanny Alger.

How long must we twist in the wind and make excuses for all of this unacceptable behavior? You forgive the woman caught in adultery and tell her to go and sin no more, but you don't make her the mouth piece of god on earth, and have her create an endowment ceremony, build a temple, and receive all sorts of revelations, while also writing an inspired version of the Bible and translate the record of Moses and Abraham.

I don't think I personally advocated for anything that would warrant your response here. Twisting in the wind... making excuses... really? Must've struck a chord. Maybe your response was meant more for the general audience.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it seems to posit the principle of repentance should be less accessible for those in more high profile circumstances... or that due to the unmet expectations that other mortals have for them, they should have to suffer more? I suppose the parable of the prodigal son may not sit well with this line of thinking either.

Am I the only one who thinks that the Fanny Alger affair and leading the church of Christ at the same time are incongruent? Christian history is full of religious frauds who ended up covering their adultery with all sorts of excuses, but at least they asked forgiveness from their followers. Joseph Smith just excommunicated anyone who called him out.

And what of a father or mother who incongruently sin while they are supposed to be leading their family? What to do with them?

I believe hyperbole hinders any objective understanding.

I'm pretty sure there are more dimensions to Joseph than what you state here. Dare I believe that he may have even asked forgiveness from various followers at other points in his life. I prefer to think Joseph was a multifaceted human being and I'm more concerned with discovering authenticity than painting caricatures that do a disservice to that end, and would really only serve to bolster or rationalize my own personal desires and circumstances.

Points all well taken. I suppose I was comparing his behavior to how he would be treated as a modern day general authority. He would be excommunicated and striped if his office in todays church. But as the leader of the church it’s hard to do that now or then. Be he a prodigal son or not.

I see what you mean. Keeping up appearances (brand image) and "setting the example" certainly complicate things. But I wonder if that's only rationalization for one to pursue what God would consider vain or idolatrous actions.

[FrankOne]

Really? The prophet of the restoration commits adultery and everything is okay? He's back in the saddle? If any of us were to do the things Joseph did, we would be excommunicated. Instead, Joseph just kept on receiving revelations from God. Another day at the office. Or the barn in the case of Fanny Alger.

How long must we twist in the wind and make excuses for all of this unacceptable behavior? You forgive the woman caught in adultery and tell her to go and sin no more, but you don't make her the mouth piece of god on earth, and have her create an endowment ceremony, build a temple, and receive all sorts of revelations, while also writing an inspired version of the Bible and translate the record of Moses and Abraham.

I don't think I personally advocated for anything that would warrant your response here. Twisting in the wind... making excuses... really? Must've struck a chord. Maybe your response was meant more for the general audience.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it seems to posit the principle of repentance should be less accessible for those in more high profile circumstances... or that due to the unmet expectations that other mortals have for them, they should have to suffer more? I suppose the parable of the prodigal son may not sit well with this line of thinking either.

Am I the only one who thinks that the Fanny Alger affair and leading the church of Christ at the same time are incongruent? Christian history is full of religious frauds who ended up covering their adultery with all sorts of excuses, but at least they asked forgiveness from their followers. Joseph Smith just excommunicated anyone who called him out.

And what of a father or mother who incongruently sin while they are supposed to be leading their family? What to do with them?

I believe hyperbole hinders any objective understanding.

I'm pretty sure there are more dimensions to Joseph than what you state here. Dare I believe that he may have even asked forgiveness from various followers at other points in his life. I prefer to think Joseph was a multifaceted human being and I'm more concerned with discovering authenticity than painting caricatures that do a disservice to that end, and would really only serve to bolster or rationalize my own personal desires and circumstances.

Points all well taken. I suppose I was comparing his behavior to how he would be treated as a modern day general authority. He would be excommunicated and striped if his office in todays church. But as the leader of the church it’s hard to do that now or then. Be he a prodigal son or not.

Just an off the cuff question after reading these posts:

How do you know that JS was not commanded by God to take Fannie as a wife? Your comments have demonstrated that you know that he committed adultery out of lust. How do you know that?

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I don't think I personally advocated for anything that would warrant your response here. Twisting in the wind... making excuses... really? Must've struck a chord. Maybe your response was meant more for the general audience.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it seems to posit the principle of repentance should be less accessible for those in more high profile circumstances... or that due to the unmet expectations that other mortals have for them, they should have to suffer more? I suppose the parable of the prodigal son may not sit well with this line of thinking either.


And what of a father or mother who incongruently sin while they are supposed to be leading their family? What to do with them?

I believe hyperbole hinders any objective understanding.

I'm pretty sure there are more dimensions to Joseph than what you state here. Dare I believe that he may have even asked forgiveness from various followers at other points in his life. I prefer to think Joseph was a multifaceted human being and I'm more concerned with discovering authenticity than painting caricatures that do a disservice to that end, and would really only serve to bolster or rationalize my own personal desires and circumstances.

Points all well taken. I suppose I was comparing his behavior to how he would be treated as a modern day general authority. He would be excommunicated and striped if his office in todays church. But as the leader of the church it’s hard to do that now or then. Be he a prodigal son or not.

Just an off the cuff question after reading these posts:

How do you know that JS was not commanded by God to take Fannie as a wife? Your comments have demonstrated that you know that he committed adultery out of lust. How do you know that?

I suppose it’s because god is not the author of confusion. In the New Testament church of Christ you can’t hold any office unless you’re a monogamist. To quote an LDS historian: Joseph smiths behavior with women beginning with fanny Alger looks a lot like sin. If you have to hide Fanny in the barn you know what you’re doing is unacceptable behavior. The barn hiding says a lot about the mind set of Joseph smith. He knew what he was doing was at least unacceptable behavior and at worst sin.

[Bonhoeffer]

I don't think I personally advocated for anything that would warrant your response here. Twisting in the wind... making excuses... really? Must've struck a chord. Maybe your response was meant more for the general audience.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it seems to posit the principle of repentance should be less accessible for those in more high profile circumstances... or that due to the unmet expectations that other mortals have for them, they should have to suffer more? I suppose the parable of the prodigal son may not sit well with this line of thinking either.


And what of a father or mother who incongruently sin while they are supposed to be leading their family? What to do with them?

I believe hyperbole hinders any objective understanding.

I'm pretty sure there are more dimensions to Joseph than what you state here. Dare I believe that he may have even asked forgiveness from various followers at other points in his life. I prefer to think Joseph was a multifaceted human being and I'm more concerned with discovering authenticity than painting caricatures that do a disservice to that end, and would really only serve to bolster or rationalize my own personal desires and circumstances.

Points all well taken. I suppose I was comparing his behavior to how he would be treated as a modern day general authority. He would be excommunicated and striped if his office in todays church. But as the leader of the church it’s hard to do that now or then. Be he a prodigal son or not.

Just an off the cuff question after reading these posts:

How do you know that JS was not commanded by God to take Fannie as a wife? Your comments have demonstrated that you know that he committed adultery out of lust. How do you know that?

If the tables were turned and it was Emma caught with a man in the barn what do you think that would be called? I refuse To believe in a God that not only condones but commands such gross sinful behavior that not only destroys a person but the family that we’re told we hold sacred. It’s not like they had condoms back then so how’d they keep STD’s from going around? Maybe that’s why lots of children weren’t the result of polygamous families. Any woman who says they’re ok and want to share their husband with countless other women are lying to themselves and are setting their children up for a very sad life. Regardless of the religion be it Mormonism or Muslims women are not happy. I’ve seen it with my own eyes in the Muslim communities, they’re the property of their husband and it’s despicable. If you’re a man and want that kind of relationship with multiple women then God help you and God help the women that are manipulated to be with you.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Points all well taken. I suppose I was comparing his behavior to how he would be treated as a modern day general authority. He would be excommunicated and striped if his office in todays church. But as the leader of the church it’s hard to do that now or then. Be he a prodigal son or not.

Just an off the cuff question after reading these posts:

How do you know that JS was not commanded by God to take Fannie as a wife? Your comments have demonstrated that you know that he committed adultery out of lust. How do you know that?

If the tables were turned and it was Emma caught with a man in the barn what do you think that would be called? I refuse To believe in a God that not only condones but commands such gross sinful behavior that not only destroys a person but the family that we’re told we hold sacred. It’s not like they had condoms back then so how’d they keep STD’s from going around? Maybe that’s why lots of children weren’t the result of polygamous families. Any woman who says they’re ok and want to share their husband with countless other women are lying to themselves and are setting their children up for a very sad life. Regardless of the religion be it Mormonism or Muslims women are not happy. I’ve seen it with my own eyes in the Muslim communities, they’re the property of their husband and it’s despicable. If you’re a man and want that kind of relationship with multiple women then God help you and God help the women that are manipulated to be with you.

You don’t have to look very far to see the manipulation employed by Joseph smith. He brought multiple 16 year olds into his home as house keepers Fanny Alger being just the first. He married older women who served as facilitators to ease younger women into polygamy with Joseph and to make the unacceptable appear acceptable. The Nancy Rigdon proposal, her refusal and then the happiness letter Joseph sent to her to explain his behavior is yet another black spot on Christianity where Joseph writes that things that are sin are not sin if god gives you permission to sin. What a wreckless abandonment of Christianity in order to cover sin.

[Bonhoeffer]

Just an off the cuff question after reading these posts:

How do you know that JS was not commanded by God to take Fannie as a wife? Your comments have demonstrated that you know that he committed adultery out of lust. How do you know that?

If the tables were turned and it was Emma caught with a man in the barn what do you think that would be called? I refuse To believe in a God that not only condones but commands such gross sinful behavior that not only destroys a person but the family that we’re told we hold sacred. It’s not like they had condoms back then so how’d they keep STD’s from going around? Maybe that’s why lots of children weren’t the result of polygamous families. Any woman who says they’re ok and want to share their husband with countless other women are lying to themselves and are setting their children up for a very sad life. Regardless of the religion be it Mormonism or Muslims women are not happy. I’ve seen it with my own eyes in the Muslim communities, they’re the property of their husband and it’s despicable. If you’re a man and want that kind of relationship with multiple women then God help you and God help the women that are manipulated to be with you.

You don’t have to look very far to see the manipulation employed by Joseph smith. He brought multiple 16 year olds into his home as house keepers Fanny Alger being just the first. He married older women who served as facilitators to ease younger women into polygamy with Joseph and to make the unacceptable appear acceptable. The Nancy Rigdon proposal, her refusal and then the happiness letter Joseph sent to her to explain his behavior is yet another black spot on Christianity where Joseph writes that things that are sin are not sin if god gives you permission to sin. What a wreckless abandonment of Christianity in order to cover sin.

To me it’s a perfect example of taking the Lord’s name in vain. He invokes the name of the Lord in commanding the women and their families go along with his sexual fetish and then threatens His condemnation on them and their posterity if they refuse. Future men of God continued the manipulation and the kicker is they’ve condemned themselves by invoking His name in the first place.

[FrankOne]

ok, thanks for the responses, apparently nobody really knows. I certainly don't, but then again, it's not something that's important to me either way. Does our salvation depend on whether or not other men sin? What's important for us in this world?

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

If the tables were turned and it was Emma caught with a man in the barn what do you think that would be called? I refuse To believe in a God that not only condones but commands such gross sinful behavior that not only destroys a person but the family that we’re told we hold sacred. It’s not like they had condoms back then so how’d they keep STD’s from going around? Maybe that’s why lots of children weren’t the result of polygamous families. Any woman who says they’re ok and want to share their husband with countless other women are lying to themselves and are setting their children up for a very sad life. Regardless of the religion be it Mormonism or Muslims women are not happy. I’ve seen it with my own eyes in the Muslim communities, they’re the property of their husband and it’s despicable. If you’re a man and want that kind of relationship with multiple women then God help you and God help the women that are manipulated to be with you.

You don’t have to look very far to see the manipulation employed by Joseph smith. He brought multiple 16 year olds into his home as house keepers Fanny Alger being just the first. He married older women who served as facilitators to ease younger women into polygamy with Joseph and to make the unacceptable appear acceptable. The Nancy Rigdon proposal, her refusal and then the happiness letter Joseph sent to her to explain his behavior is yet another black spot on Christianity where Joseph writes that things that are sin are not sin if god gives you permission to sin. What a wreckless abandonment of Christianity in order to cover sin.

To me it’s a perfect example of taking the Lord’s name in vain. He invokes the name of the Lord in commanding the women and their families go along with his sexual fetish and then threatens His condemnation on them and their posterity if they refuse. Future men of God continued the manipulation and the kicker is they’ve condemned themselves by invoking His name in the first place.

But you can’t deny that invoking the name of god and listing the blessings of worlds without end and exaltation etc. isn’t a pretty big carrot. These poor women and girls thought they were risking their eternity if they refused. And to top it all off Joseph began his proposals by asking “do you believe I’m a prophet”? It’s pretty coercive stuff. It’s shameful.

[Mamabear]

ok, thanks for the responses, apparently nobody really knows. I certainly don't, but then again, it's not something that's important to me either way. Does our salvation depend on whether or not other men sin? What's important for us in this world?

“Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it” (D&C 135:3).

Yet, he coerced women to marry him for their salvation. Joseph did the people of this world a disservice. He utterly fooled them into to thinking their salvation was tied to other things besides Jesus.

[FrankOne]

ok, thanks for the responses, apparently nobody really knows. I certainly don't, but then again, it's not something that's important to me either way. Does our salvation depend on whether or not other men sin? What's important for us in this world?

“Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it” (D&C 135:3).

Yet, he coerced women to marry him for their salvation. Joseph did the people of this world a disservice. He utterly fooled them into to thinking their salvation was tied to other things besides Jesus.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I rely on Jesus Christ to lead me to salvation and if I do my part, it's done. No one else is in that equation.

Being angry about any errors of JS is a detour from salvation ....

[FrankOne]

I would like to say something else about JS.

I can't quite wrap my mind around it, and I can't explain it, but there is something unique about JS and his mission on earth. We all have missions btw. He did something and it is relative to the priesthood, but I do not believe it is something that we now understand. I do not understand the priesthood, but there is something to it and I'm not referring to 'becoming Gods' . It's something practical or even mechanical but on a level that we now do not understand. I could use the term "quantum level" but i don't think it fits either.

Trying to enumerate his errors isn't of any benefit in the least. He did 'something' and it wasn't of the Devil. My inspiration on this comes from a relative of mine that was the closest man to God that I've ever met or ever heard of in modern times. His gifts were astounding, but remained virtually anonymous excepting those that knew him personally.

There are levels to this existence and on each level, there are steps and those steps are sometimes constructed with divine assistance. Without that assistance, the masses would never have any hope. Christ is the savior, but the masses do need steps to get close enough to him to be able to take his hand. There are few that can reach Christ without those steps.

It is my assertion that JS built a step with divine help. Whether he became wrapped up in women and lust afterwards isn't relative to what I've said. David was apparently so important that Christ mentioned twice that he was of his lineage. David was considered closer to Gods heart than any man. ... yet... he burned with lust for another man's wife so he sent the man to certain death.

Men fulfill their missions notwithstanding their failures. God's will is always done.

[Shawn Henry]

Joseph did the people of this world a disservice.

The Book of Mormon has done the world a tremendous service by bringing many unto Christ. That's JS's work.

As far as all those who were deceived by his later false doctrines, were they not primed for such deceptions anyway. Couldn't anyone have led them astray?

If we believe that God's people always get the leadership they deserve, it doesn't really matter who provides them that leadership because it will always match the people.

You could also argue that God himself did the world a disservice by bringing us into this world of sin, but we know that's not the case.

The greatest service that has been done to us all is the learning experience of being surrounded by sin and knowing how not to be deceived. It is because of being deceived that we now have learned better and know to recognize such deceptions.

[Mamabear]

Joseph did the people of this world a disservice.

The Book of Mormon has done the world a tremendous service by bringing many unto Christ. That's JS's work.

As far as all those who were deceived by his later false doctrines, were they not primed for such deceptions anyway. Couldn't anyone have led them astray?

If we believe that God's people always get the leadership they deserve, it doesn't really matter who provides them that leadership because it will always match the people.

You could also argue that God himself did the world a disservice by bringing us into this world of sin, but we know that's not the case.

The greatest service that has been done to us all is the learning experience of being surrounded by sin and knowing how not to be deceived. It is because of being deceived that we now have learned better and know to recognize such deceptions.

I meant because he created a false religion.

[Luke]

Joseph did the people of this world a disservice.

The Book of Mormon has done the world a tremendous service by bringing many unto Christ. That's JS's work.

As far as all those who were deceived by his later false doctrines, were they not primed for such deceptions anyway. Couldn't anyone have led them astray?

If we believe that God's people always get the leadership they deserve, it doesn't really matter who provides them that leadership because it will always match the people.

You could also argue that God himself did the world a disservice by bringing us into this world of sin, but we know that's not the case.

The greatest service that has been done to us all is the learning experience of being surrounded by sin and knowing how not to be deceived. It is because of being deceived that we now have learned better and know to recognize such deceptions.

I meant because he created a false religion.

Why do you think it’s false?

[Mamabear]

The Book of Mormon has done the world a tremendous service by bringing many unto Christ. That's JS's work.

As far as all those who were deceived by his later false doctrines, were they not primed for such deceptions anyway. Couldn't anyone have led them astray?

If we believe that God's people always get the leadership they deserve, it doesn't really matter who provides them that leadership because it will always match the people.

You could also argue that God himself did the world a disservice by bringing us into this world of sin, but we know that's not the case.

The greatest service that has been done to us all is the learning experience of being surrounded by sin and knowing how not to be deceived. It is because of being deceived that we now have learned better and know to recognize such deceptions.

I meant because he created a false religion.

Why do you think it’s false?

Evidence.

[Luke]

I meant because he created a false religion.

Why do you think it’s false?

Evidence.

Your response persuades me that you know nothing.

[Mamabear]

Why do you think it’s false?

Evidence.

Your response persuades me that you know nothing.

LOL. Well, there is a lot of evidence that the church is a hoax. I’m just not going to list it all Luke.

[Ymarsakar]

2020 was proof people s lives were a hoax, full of tropes

[Luke]

Evidence.

Your response persuades me that you know nothing.

LOL. Well, there is a lot of evidence that the church is a hoax. I’m just not going to list it all Luke.

The Church (in its present state) being a hoax has nothing to do with whether or not the religion Joseph Smith created was a hoax.

Let’s try again—where is your evidence?

[Mamabear]

Your response persuades me that you know nothing.

LOL. Well, there is a lot of evidence that the church is a hoax. I’m just not going to list it all Luke.

The Church (in its present state) being a hoax has nothing to do with whether or not the religion Joseph Smith created was a hoax.

Let’s try again—where is your evidence?

In his words, actions, philosophies, theories, and teachings. Much of what Joseph taught did not match what Jesus taught. If you do your own homework you will see.

[FrankOne]

Evidence.

Your response persuades me that you know nothing.

LOL. Well, there is a lot of evidence that the church is a hoax. I’m just not going to list it all Luke.

the plan is working.

destroy all faith
destroy all family
destroy belief itself
create anger


Is the entire church from the beginning, a hoax? So JS was just a very good liar? Did he make money on this hoax?

There's truth in it and something to be learned but you have to look for it instead of dismissing it all out of hand. He had experiences that were not of this world because he was born with an unusual ability, like his father. Blindly following any man is, of course, ridiculous, but...JS said that himself. Go figure, since , to you, he was just a con man.

That being said, look to any root of a religion and you'll find the exact same occurrence. Something otherwordly occurred to one man or woman and then men made a religion out of it until it was just about serving the edifice. Buddha was a perfect example as well.

[Mamabear]

Your response persuades me that you know nothing.

LOL. Well, there is a lot of evidence that the church is a hoax. I’m just not going to list it all Luke.

the plan is working.

destroy all faith
destroy all family
destroy belief itself
create anger


Is the entire church from the beginning, a hoax? So JS was just a very good liar? Did he make money on this hoax?

There's truth in it and something to be learned but you have to look for it instead of dismissing it all out of hand. He had experiences that were not of this world because he was born with an unusual ability, like his father. Blindly following any man is, of course, ridiculous, but...JS said that himself. Go figure, since , to you, he was just a con man.

That being said, look to any root of a religion and you'll find the exact same occurrence. Something otherwordly occurred to one man or woman and then men made a religion out of it until it was just about serving the edifice. Buddha was a perfect example as well.

It seems Joseph was good liar. He wanted a following and he certainly obtained that.
He said blindly following was wrong, yes. However, did you happen to read why Oliver was excommunicated?
“2nd, For seeking to destroying the character of President Joseph Smith jr, by falsly insinuating that he was guilty of adultry &c”

Never insult or question the “anointed brethren.” Especially if they commit sin.
But they can certainly call you out and ex you.

[Luke]

LOL. Well, there is a lot of evidence that the church is a hoax. I’m just not going to list it all Luke.

the plan is working.

destroy all faith
destroy all family
destroy belief itself
create anger


Is the entire church from the beginning, a hoax? So JS was just a very good liar? Did he make money on this hoax?

There's truth in it and something to be learned but you have to look for it instead of dismissing it all out of hand. He had experiences that were not of this world because he was born with an unusual ability, like his father. Blindly following any man is, of course, ridiculous, but...JS said that himself. Go figure, since , to you, he was just a con man.

That being said, look to any root of a religion and you'll find the exact same occurrence. Something otherwordly occurred to one man or woman and then men made a religion out of it until it was just about serving the edifice. Buddha was a perfect example as well.

It seems Joseph was good liar. He wanted a following and he certainly obtained that.
He said blindly following was wrong, yes. However, did you happen to read why Oliver was excommunicated?
“2nd, For seeking to destroying the character of President Joseph Smith jr, by falsly insinuating that he was guilty of adultry &c”

Never insult or question the “anointed brethren.” Especially if they commit sin.
But they can certainly call you out and ex you.

It was a false accusation.

[Luke]

LOL. Well, there is a lot of evidence that the church is a hoax. I’m just not going to list it all Luke.

The Church (in its present state) being a hoax has nothing to do with whether or not the religion Joseph Smith created was a hoax.

Let’s try again—where is your evidence?

In his words, actions, philosophies, theories, and teachings. Much of what Joseph taught did not match what Jesus taught. If you do your own homework you will see.

Paraphrasing: “Just look it up”.

No, if you’re making a case, you should be expected to back up what you’re saying. I try my best to back up what I say on here with sources, and I’m expecting the same from you here—particularly since you’re so adamant about what you’re saying.

[FrankOne]

LOL. Well, there is a lot of evidence that the church is a hoax. I’m just not going to list it all Luke.

the plan is working.

destroy all faith
destroy all family
destroy belief itself
create anger


Is the entire church from the beginning, a hoax? So JS was just a very good liar? Did he make money on this hoax?

There's truth in it and something to be learned but you have to look for it instead of dismissing it all out of hand. He had experiences that were not of this world because he was born with an unusual ability, like his father. Blindly following any man is, of course, ridiculous, but...JS said that himself. Go figure, since , to you, he was just a con man.

That being said, look to any root of a religion and you'll find the exact same occurrence. Something otherwordly occurred to one man or woman and then men made a religion out of it until it was just about serving the edifice. Buddha was a perfect example as well.

It seems Joseph was good liar. He wanted a following and he certainly obtained that.
He said blindly following was wrong, yes. However, did you happen to read why Oliver was excommunicated?
“2nd, For seeking to destroying the character of President Joseph Smith jr, by falsly insinuating that he was guilty of adultry &c”

Never insult or question the “anointed brethren.” Especially if they commit sin.
But they can certainly call you out and ex you.

Oliver denouncing the JS affair with Fannie while also reaffirming his seeing Jesus Christ and said he could not deny it.
This happened after Olivers excommunication. Why would a man that has been excommunicated still firmly testify of seeing Christ with Joseph Smith and confirm his testimony ?

He wasn't the only one ex'd by JS that also reaffirmed their spiritual experiences concerning the foundation of the church. Were they all "in on it"? forever?

I question all of it btw but i never dismiss things out of personal bias. There is truth in the original foundation of what happened between God and many men in the early days of the church. How it ties into what is to come is impossible to predict.