How NOT to fake a revelation...

[The Red Pill]

FYI...for those not familiar with just how sketchy the circumstances were around 132 coming forward...this is a good intro:

[Wolfwoman]

Haha! I love the last part where the woman received a revelation that she was to shoot any plural wives!

[Good & Global]

Great video seems to say a lot. The guy in bright yellow shirt needs a new background.
He seems to look like he is on the toilet. For this reason, I won't even look at his take on any lost paper.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Your forum name is appropriate. This post is one of the most arm-chair-quarterbacked, opinion-ladened posts I've ever read. You make several claims regarding Joseph Smith which are simply unproven and unfounded. Have you even read up on these topics? Have you read the transcripts from Emma's 4 interviews, each of which occurred during the 35 years she lived after he was killed? She's the best first-hand witness we have. What you just posted was shameful and disgusting, all from your armchair.

I've never read those four essays you mention. How do I get my hands on them? I would be very interested. Thanks for pointing them out to me. Do you have a link you could share with me? I'm very interested and open to anything you have that could counter my opinion and exonerate Joseph Smith.

I'd be happy to and will do so ... I'm currently at work and can't. I also apologize if I was too strong above ... I just get ruffled when a dead prophet is accused of horrific acts when the historical record in no way proves those accusations to be true.

I did find this about Fanny Alger:

William E. McLellin, Mormon Apostle, indicated that Emma Smith "looked through a crack and saw the transaction" in the barn. (Richard Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History, 2nd edition, Signature Books, 1989, pp. 4-11)

The affair led to a severe rift between loyal follower Oliver Cowdery and Joseph. Cowdery referred to Smith's indulgences with Fanny Alger as "A dirty, nasty, filthy affair." Church leaders and loyal defenders avoid linking Smith with his adultery by calling it an authorized "plural marriage." Todd Compton, author of, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, 2nd edition, notes that in February or March of 1833, when Joseph was 27 and Fanny Alger 17, he had sexual relations with her. After Emma found out about Joseph's secret love affair, she turned Fanny out of their house, where she had been working as a servant. (In Sacred Loneliness, pp. 34-36) It has been noted that calling it a marriage instead of an affair raises more disturbing questions. Polygamous marriages were not legal in Ohio, the man who performed the ceremony had no authority to perform the illegal marriage, and Smith had not claimed any "revelations" or authority directing him to enter into polygamous marital arrangements in 1833-1835.

And here's what the church is putting out about Fanny Alger which you can read the church website here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... r?lang=eng

Relationship to Joseph Smith
Very little is known about the marriage between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger. The earliest sources emerged in the aftermath of the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society in 1837. Angry investors in the society and local antagonists circulated many rumors attacking Joseph, including allegations that he committed adultery. Some of the rumors were said to originate with Oliver Cowdery, whose formerly close relationship with Joseph had become strained over a variety of matters. Some claimed Oliver heard Joseph confess to extramarital relations with Fanny Alger.11 In fall 1837, Joseph Smith confronted Cowdery about the rumor in a meeting attended by at least three others. In that meeting, Cowdery refuted the rumor that Joseph had confessed to him.12 The following April, when Cowdery was tried in Missouri for his Church membership over many charges, the high council discussed the rumors Cowdery had circulated. Joseph gave an explanation of his relationship to Fanny that appears to have satisfied the high council.13 Cowdery was excommunicated during this meeting.

Other than evidence of a visit in the early 1840s to her family who belonged to the Church branch in Lima, Illinois, Fanny’s name remains absent from Latter-day Saint records for nearly 30 years.14 In the late 19th century, a handful of statements by Latter-day Saints and former Church members indicated that Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger’s relationship was an early plural marriage.15 Eliza R. Snow, one of Joseph Smith’s plural wives, simply included Fanny in a list of his wives.16 Mosiah Hancock in 1896 and Benjamin F. Johnson in 1903 likewise described Fanny’s relationship to Joseph as a plural marriage that was kept confidential. Hancock told of a private marriage sealing performed by Hancock’s father in Kirtland. According to Johnson, Fanny was asked about her relationship to Joseph but refused to elaborate on the matter.17

Though we know little about the introduction and early practice of plural marriage, Latter-day Saints honor the faith of early Church members who sacrificed to obey this difficult commandment.

[Good & Global]

Is this the authorized pratice of polygamy or dirty, nasty adultery?

It depends on what your definition of is is.

Official response paraphrase: Very little is known (despite having seers and prophets who can see in the past nor does it bother us enough as an organization to look into it historically) and were most likely started by disgruntled investors. These could have been SEC whistleblowers of their day. Oliver Cowdery and William Law were disgruntled employees and this shows by our action taken against them for bringing this up.

Some things that are true are not very useful - Boyd K Packer

The Mantles is Far Far Greater than the Intellect
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng
(far far greater in the title means we are so so above the laws members are accountable for)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... o?lang=eng

[LDS Physician]

I've never read those four essays you mention. How do I get my hands on them? I would be very interested. Thanks for pointing them out to me. Do you have a link you could share with me? I'm very interested and open to anything you have that could counter my opinion and exonerate Joseph Smith.

I'd be happy to and will do so ... I'm currently at work and can't. I also apologize if I was too strong above ... I just get ruffled when a dead prophet is accused of horrific acts when the historical record in no way proves those accusations to be true.

I did find this about Fanny Alger:

William E. McLellin, Mormon Apostle, indicated that Emma Smith "looked through a crack and saw the transaction" in the barn. (Richard Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History, 2nd edition, Signature Books, 1989, pp. 4-11)

The affair led to a severe rift between loyal follower Oliver Cowdery and Joseph. Cowdery referred to Smith's indulgences with Fanny Alger as "A dirty, nasty, filthy affair." Church leaders and loyal defenders avoid linking Smith with his adultery by calling it an authorized "plural marriage." Todd Compton, author of, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, 2nd edition, notes that in February or March of 1833, when Joseph was 27 and Fanny Alger 17, he had sexual relations with her. After Emma found out about Joseph's secret love affair, she turned Fanny out of their house, where she had been working as a servant. (In Sacred Loneliness, pp. 34-36) It has been noted that calling it a marriage instead of an affair raises more disturbing questions. Polygamous marriages were not legal in Ohio, the man who performed the ceremony had no authority to perform the illegal marriage, and Smith had not claimed any "revelations" or authority directing him to enter into polygamous marital arrangements in 1833-1835.

And here's what the church is putting out about Fanny Alger which you can read the church website here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... r?lang=eng

Relationship to Joseph Smith
Very little is known about the marriage between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger. The earliest sources emerged in the aftermath of the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society in 1837. Angry investors in the society and local antagonists circulated many rumors attacking Joseph, including allegations that he committed adultery. Some of the rumors were said to originate with Oliver Cowdery, whose formerly close relationship with Joseph had become strained over a variety of matters. Some claimed Oliver heard Joseph confess to extramarital relations with Fanny Alger.11 In fall 1837, Joseph Smith confronted Cowdery about the rumor in a meeting attended by at least three others. In that meeting, Cowdery refuted the rumor that Joseph had confessed to him.12 The following April, when Cowdery was tried in Missouri for his Church membership over many charges, the high council discussed the rumors Cowdery had circulated. Joseph gave an explanation of his relationship to Fanny that appears to have satisfied the high council.13 Cowdery was excommunicated during this meeting.

Other than evidence of a visit in the early 1840s to her family who belonged to the Church branch in Lima, Illinois, Fanny’s name remains absent from Latter-day Saint records for nearly 30 years.14 In the late 19th century, a handful of statements by Latter-day Saints and former Church members indicated that Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger’s relationship was an early plural marriage.15 Eliza R. Snow, one of Joseph Smith’s plural wives, simply included Fanny in a list of his wives.16 Mosiah Hancock in 1896 and Benjamin F. Johnson in 1903 likewise described Fanny’s relationship to Joseph as a plural marriage that was kept confidential. Hancock told of a private marriage sealing performed by Hancock’s father in Kirtland. According to Johnson, Fanny was asked about her relationship to Joseph but refused to elaborate on the matter.17

Though we know little about the introduction and early practice of plural marriage, Latter-day Saints honor the faith of early Church members who sacrificed to obey this difficult commandment.

This might give you some more information:

https://hemlockknots.com/fanny-alger-fact-or-fiction/

The video and audio are well done.

Also I suggest watching this:

https://youtu.be/F5heXE5xS5w

He was a church historian for years and does a great job pointing out "inconsistencies" between the church's narrative/claims and actuality. His other videos are very interesting as well.

The quoted paragraphs you listed above are chock full of unproven allegations stated as fact. For instance:

"Saints honor the faith of early Church members who sacrificed to obey this difficult commandment" --- it was a commandment? When was this received? Who received it? Was it recorded? Voted on by the members of the church? Did Joseph Smith ever say or write that he received such a commandment?

"Very little is known about the marriage between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger." -- there is no record of a "marriage" between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger.

"The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, 2nd edition, notes that in February or March of 1833, when Joseph was 27 and Fanny Alger 17, he had sexual relations with her." -- what a great statement, unfounded, unproven, and I believe untrue.

The prophet who has done more for mankind second only to Jesus Christ Himself had adulterous relations with a teenager? I highly doubt it.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I also found this:

Joseph Smith institutionalized the practice of lying, so church leaders could deny the practice of taking multiple wives and keep Smith out of legal trouble. Sober-faced lies permitted leaders to deceive with a clear conscience; believing that God permitted and even encouraged lying to protect the principle of plural marriage.

An article from the 1886 Deseret News listed the code words and the rationale for their use. When accused of practicing "polygamy" Joseph and Hyrum denied it because it was different than "celestial "marriage" and "a plurality of wives." Polygamy was after all, a doctrine of men and the devil. "Celestial marriage" was different Smith reasoned, because it was a holy doctrine revealed by God. Joseph wanted followers to believe that the two terms were completely dissimilar. Other code words were, "eternal marriage," "the divine order of marriage," "Holy order of marriage," "living up to your privileges," "new and everlasting covenant," and "a different view of things."

If accusers did not frame their allegations using precisely the right terms, the leaders felt justified in prevaricating. If the accusers framed their words perfectly, the leaders lied anyway. Their view was that it was more important to live the higher law ? loyalty to the Prophet ? than to expose the truth to Gentiles. A prominent feature of Mormonism is that loyalty trumps honesty. (Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, p. 113. See also B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage, University of Illinois Press, 1992, p. 365.) For an excellent treatment of loyalty and obedience vs. honesty see the following: Link to content.and Link to content.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

And this:

Vienna Jacques of Nauvoo heard rumors about "spiritual wifery." She wanted Emma to ask Joseph "if the rumors were true. Was "spiritual wifery" a doctrine of the church?" Emma asked and relayed Joseph's answer. Vienna reported, "he, [Joseph] had told her [Emma] to tell the sisters of the [Women's Relief] society…"the whole idea was absolutely false and the doctrine an evil and unlawful thing." Joseph was secretly practicing plural marriage at the time. (Mormon Enigma, p. 114)

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

This is an account I had never read previously:

Martha Brotherton, an 18 year-old convert from England, emigrated to Nauvoo, Illinois in 1842 with her parents. Brigham Young approached Joseph Smith to ask if he could add Martha as another plural wife. Smith agreed and called a meeting with Young and Martha. She knew nothing of the agreement between them beforehand. Her parents were not informed or invited, though she would be regarded as a dependent minor today.

After Smith and Young made great efforts to persuade her, Martha refused. They encouraged her to lie to her parents and keep their proposal a secret and tried again to convince her to accept Brigham's proposal. Martha finally appealed to them through tears and pleading that she be given time to think about the offer.

After being sworn to secrecy and permitted to leave the room, Martha revealed everything to her parents and wrote the events while the important details were fresh in her mind. She told others in Nauvoo about the episode before the family boarded a steamboat bound for St. Louis. She published her account in a St. Louis newspaper (St. Louis Bulletin, July 15, 1842, p. 2).

Smith, stung by the article, immediately denied that the events Martha described took place. He also issued false affidavits and statements that labeled Martha not only a liar, but also an apostate and "mean harlot." Smith used lies to commit character assassination when he thought the situation warranted it; no matter how young his victim was.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

This was also new to me:

Zeruiah Goddard, signed a false statement vilifying Sarah Pratt. It was added to other slanderous and libelous statements as part of a smear campaign against Sarah; orchestrated by Smith after she refused his advances. Goddard confessed to Sarah years later that Hyrum Smith (Joseph's brother), "came to our house with affidavits all written out, and forced us to sign them. Joseph and the Church must be saved, said he. We saw that resistance was useless, they would have ruined us; so we signed the papers." Church leaders felt comfortable breaking civil laws to promote polygamy, were willing to lie to protect polygamy, and willing to resort to character assassination in the form of slander and libel, against any who exposed Joseph's secret, unjustifiable behavior. (Richard Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History, 2nd edition, p. 34 and Footnote 12, p. 38)

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I was surprised by how many wives Emma was not aware of:

On May 1, 1843, Joseph deceived Emma and others when he married 17 year-old Lucy Walker while Emma was away in St. Louis. Lucy admitted that Emma was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; "she did not know anything about it at all." (Mormon Enigma, p. 139)

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

These two are troubling:

Orson Pratt admitted that when called upon to defend the practice of polygamy, he deliberately misled his listeners. He did not consider this to be lying. It was done to protect a law higher than man's misguided laws. (Solemn Covenant, p. 367) Official LDS histories are not forthcoming about the role of lying as a defense for polygamous marriages.

In a well-publicized debate between John Taylor and a Protestant minister in 1850, John Taylor denied that the Mormons practiced polygamy. At the time, he was the husband of multiple wives. (Solemn Covenant, p. 367) In a public discussion in Boulogne-Sur-Mer, France, he claimed, "… I shall content myself by reading our views of chastity and marriage, from a work published by us, containing some of the articles of our Faith. Doctrine and Covenants, page 330…Inasmuch as this Church of Jesus Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again" (Tract published by John Taylor in 1850, p. 8; found in Orson Pratt's Works, 1851 edition. Found in The Changing World of Mormonism, pp. 261-262).

Taylor knew that the real revelation on marriage was the one on plural marriage, but refused to admit it to his audience.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

And this comment about deception is very concerning:

Charles W. Penrose, Apostle and Counselor to two Presidents of the Church, admitted that after Joseph Smith's death, certain facts about him were purposely withheld from church publications "for prudential reasons." Expediency became a more important virtue than honesty; deception was accepted as a necessary tool, while grass roots members were commanded to be honest and disciplined for dishonesty. (Solemn Covenant, p. 367) Currently LDS historians are excommunicated precisely because they have written honest histories.

In a letter to President John Taylor in 1887, Charles W. Penrose, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, expressed concern that "the endless subterfuges and prevarications which our present condition impose…threaten to make our rising generation a race of deceivers." (Solemn Covenant, p. 368)

Thomas J. Rosser was a missionary in Wales in 1908. He asked his mission president Charles W. Penrose if the 1890 Manifesto banning plural marriage was a revelation from God. Making "no" into a long answer, Penrose replied, "Brethren, I will answer that question, if you will keep it under your hats. I Charles W. Penrose wrote the manifesto with the assistance of Frank J. Cannon and John White… Wilford Woodruff signed it to beat the devil at his own game."

The Manifesto, authored by Penrose, was submitted to a committee ? Judges Charles S. Zane, C.S. Varian, and O.W. Powers, (nonmembers). The wording was changed slightly and the document was recopied by a clerk named Green. (Samuel Taylor, The Rocky Mountain Empire, New York, NY, MacMillan, 1978, p. 35)

Official LDS histories and curriculum lead ordinary members to believe that the Manifesto was a sacred communication from God to church president Wilford Woodruff. The curriculum materials do not inform members that ample documentation exists to prove that the 1890 Manifesto was one more trick to beat the devil (federal government), as Penrose suggested. It was anything but sacred communication between God and the LDS prophet. (D. Michael Quinn, LDS Church Authority and New Plural Marriages, 1890-1904, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1985)

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Henry S. Tanner explained that when he was forced to lie to protect himself or the church then the word he spoke (lies told to civil authorities under oath) had no binding power. He believed that the Mormons would be regarded by God as having made no promises nor be accountable for lies told to protect the church. Tanner and others blamed the government for making them lie. Lying was elevated from duplicity and degraded communication to a religious duty.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Carl A. Badger, who was not a church member, acted as a friend and counselor to the church leaders during the Smoot hearings (1903-1907). During those hearings it was discovered that the church leaders had lied and deceived the federal government about its intentions to rid the church of polygamy for decades. Badger concluded that the church had decided that some things were more important than honesty. He said that the result was moral confusion. George D. Kirby, writing in the Improvement Era in 1910, admitted as much when he answered charges that Mormons were deceitful. He wrote that there might be "truth in the charges." (Solemn Covenant, p. 376) Current LDS histories reject the suggestion to be forthcoming about church leaders' dishonesty and duplicity.

[Luke]

I rate these things based on their fruits. Does a person get better spiritual status and growth under JOseph Smith and Brigham vs Rob's thesis.

Bingo. Those who believe in Joseph Smith and Brigham Young Mormonism are objectively on a higher plane, whilst those who reject it are wandering in darkness. Sorry, not sorry, if that offends some of you.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Apostle John W. Taylor married Janet Maria Wooley as his third wife only four days after the Manifesto banning plural marriage was presented and accepted in general conference. They married in a carriage in Liberty Park at night in Salt Lake City. The family intentionally backdated the marriage date to 10 October 1889. Apostle John W. Taylor married Rhoda and Roxie Welling on 29 August 1901 (11 years after the Manifesto). The ceremony was performed at the Taylor home in Farmington, Utah. Joseph F. Smith, who was acting as a counselor in the First Presidency, gave permission. The subterfuge was regarded as virtuous and necessary by church leaders. (Solemn Covenant pp. 206-207) Lying for convenience' sake was strikingly similar to lying for Christ's sake.

[Ymarsakar]

I rate these things based on their fruits. Does a person get better spiritual status and growth under JOseph Smith and Brigham vs Rob's thesis.

Bingo. Those who believe in Joseph Smith and Brigham Young Mormonism are objectively on a higher plane, whilst those who reject it are wandering in darkness. Sorry, not sorry, if that offends some of you.

I wouldn't go that far but people arrived at the current state through the LDS traditions. Criticizing their own traditions is fine, but it is much like criticizing America's founders.

As for armchair's claims, again, you remind me of the Ukraine conflict where people are accusing one party of all the evils of Earth, but the truth is that the accusers are always perpetuating the evil and blaming the innocent party.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

The son of Wilford Woodruff, Abraham Owen Woodruff, married 18 year-old Eliza Avery Clark as a plural wife in 1901 (11 years after his father presented the Manifesto). She was previously engaged to a young man living in Wyoming where she resided with her family. After Apostle Matthias F. Cowley persuaded her to marry Woodruff, she broke her engagement and consented to marry Woodruff. Cowley performed the ceremony in Preston, Idaho. (Solemn Covenant, pp. 208-209) Modern church members might be stunned to learn of the disregard for the law demonstrated by church leaders. In a modern members' mind it would conflict with the covenant to obey the laws of the land.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Ninety year-old President Wilford Woodruff took a new plural wife in 1897, one year before his death. He married Lydia Mamreoff von Finkelstein Mountford who was 49 years-old. She was a guest lecturer in Salt Lake City, having been invited by James E. Talmage. President Woodruff was captivated by her. She was baptized in February 1897. They traveled together to California and used assumed names when registering in a hotel in Portland, Oregon. Between 20 and 22 September 1897, they were married while sailing back to Portland from California. At the time, Mountford was the legal wife of Charles Edwin Mountford. This would not be the first instance of plural marriage to a woman still legally married. Joseph Smith practiced that concept at least 11 times (In Sacred Loneliness, pp. 15-23). It has always been postulated that whatever others did after the Manifesto, President Woodruff had honored the "revelation." The marriage was later solemnized by proxy in the Salt Lake Temple in 1920, making the illegal marriage valid and honorable in the eyes of Mormon leadership. (Solemn Covenant, pp. 228-232)

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Church leaders deceived its members when they redefined the term "celestial marriage." Until the 1880's it had referred exclusively to plural marriage. To mislead government authorities, leaders claimed that "celestial marriage" meant only a marriage that survived death; though they never subscribed to this meaning themselves. During the Smoot hearings leaders used this deceptive maneuver to mislead investigators.

This deception proved helpful in Idaho where the constitution prohibited those practicing or teaching "celestial marriage" from voting. Yet, as late as 1904, leaders privately used the term "celestial marriage" to refer to polygamy. In order to distance itself from polygamy, the church finally adopted the new meaning of "celestial marriage." Modern active members do not understand that "celestial marriage" originally referred to polygamy alone. Current church leaders perpetuate the deception. (Solemn Covenant, pp. 297-298)

[Ymarsakar]

Scholars and friends of Western History lost an esteemed colleague with the death of B. Carmon Hardy on December 21, 2016, three days short of his eight-second birthday.

Born in Vernal, Utah, he graduated from high school in Washington state in 1953, received a masters from Brigham Young University and his doctorate from Wayne State University in 1963. He served for almost forty years at California State University, Fullerton, where he became a professor emeritus.

Professor Hardy's scholarship ranged far and wide, from a textbook on world history to articles on the Emperor Julian's law school, teaching, historiography, and the Third and Fourth Amendments. Carmon is best known for his groundbreaking work on the Mormon settlements in Mexico, starting with his dissertation "The Northern Colonies in Northern Mexico, A History, 1885-1912" and the official sanctioning of polygamy after the "manifesto" of 1890 in his masterful "Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage," which won the Mormon Historical Association's Best Book award for 1992. His 2007 documentary history, "Doing the Works of Abraham, Mormon Polygamy: Its Origin, Practice, and Demise," has been numbered among the five most important books on Mormon polygamy.

An engaging, eloquent, witty and compassionate writer, Carmon took a sympathetic view of humanity. His 2008 article, "Polygamy, Mormonism, and Me," shows he tried to deal with Mormon subjects "as accurately and fairly as possible, placing all under the same lamp I would if recounting a military exploit of the American Civil War or the policies of a medieval Catholic pope." He remained "proud that my Mormon forebears walked across the continent, broke their plows subduing the salt-crusted plain, fought the crickets, and raised up cities in the dry valleys of the Rocky Mountains. If I now disagree with some of their precepts, I yet hope to emulate their courage in setting a different course, in honoring my own deepest convictions."

Professor Hardy was a Fellow of the Utah State Historical Society, which awarded him its Dale Morgan Prize in 1980 and Smith-Pettit Foundation Best Documentary Book in Utah History Award in 2008. The history department of CSU Fullerton will hold a memorial service for Carmon on January 21, from 10 to noon next to campus at the Fullerton Marriott.

Will Bagley
Salt Lake City

https://mormoninquiry.typepad.com/mormo ... enant.html

Arm Chair Quarterback, you do not seem to be quoting or paraphrasing that author.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Probably best to discuss the validity and content of the historical record rather than question the morality of the messenger.

That, sadly, is a tactic many accused Jospeh smith of employing when his polygamy was revealed in public.

[LDS Physician]

I also found this:

Joseph Smith institutionalized the practice of lying, so church leaders could deny the practice of taking multiple wives and keep Smith out of legal trouble. Sober-faced lies permitted leaders to deceive with a clear conscience; believing that God permitted and even encouraged lying to protect the principle of plural marriage.

An article from the 1886 Deseret News listed the code words and the rationale for their use. When accused of practicing "polygamy" Joseph and Hyrum denied it because it was different than "celestial "marriage" and "a plurality of wives." Polygamy was after all, a doctrine of men and the devil. "Celestial marriage" was different Smith reasoned, because it was a holy doctrine revealed by God. Joseph wanted followers to believe that the two terms were completely dissimilar. Other code words were, "eternal marriage," "the divine order of marriage," "Holy order of marriage," "living up to your privileges," "new and everlasting covenant," and "a different view of things."

If accusers did not frame their allegations using precisely the right terms, the leaders felt justified in prevaricating. If the accusers framed their words perfectly, the leaders lied anyway. Their view was that it was more important to live the higher law ? loyalty to the Prophet ? than to expose the truth to Gentiles. A prominent feature of Mormonism is that loyalty trumps honesty. (Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, p. 113. See also B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage, University of Illinois Press, 1992, p. 365.) For an excellent treatment of loyalty and obedience vs. honesty see the following: Link to content.and Link to content.

Listing quotes from people who were practicing polygamy decades after Joseph's death is a worthless exercise. I sure hope JS wasn't watching this guy in 1886 ... a full 42 years after he was murdered (likely because he was gearing up to root out polygamists in the church) ... call him a LIAR and a POLYGAMIST and an ADULTERER.

How very brave of this article's author and accusers.

It's so similar to BY ... 8 years after JS and HS were in the ground. "Guess what everyone! I have a revelation given to JS by the Lord and it's been hidden in my desk drawer for 8 years ... and guess what it says! Polygamy is the celestial law of the Lord! Isn't that wonderful! Nevermind what the Book of Mormon says ... this is a bona fide revelation! Oh, and Emma burned the original copy because she's a big jerk, but thankfully my right-hand-man wrote it all down and I kept it hidden from everyone until now. Glory be!"

Then BY sends married men on missions so he can marry their wives while they're gone. They return to find their wives no longer their wives. Sound like the celestial law of the Lord to you?

But ... keep on listing quotes and testimonies given by 2nd and 3rd hand sources decades after his murder. Par for the course.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I also found this:

Joseph Smith institutionalized the practice of lying, so church leaders could deny the practice of taking multiple wives and keep Smith out of legal trouble. Sober-faced lies permitted leaders to deceive with a clear conscience; believing that God permitted and even encouraged lying to protect the principle of plural marriage.

An article from the 1886 Deseret News listed the code words and the rationale for their use. When accused of practicing "polygamy" Joseph and Hyrum denied it because it was different than "celestial "marriage" and "a plurality of wives." Polygamy was after all, a doctrine of men and the devil. "Celestial marriage" was different Smith reasoned, because it was a holy doctrine revealed by God. Joseph wanted followers to believe that the two terms were completely dissimilar. Other code words were, "eternal marriage," "the divine order of marriage," "Holy order of marriage," "living up to your privileges," "new and everlasting covenant," and "a different view of things."

If accusers did not frame their allegations using precisely the right terms, the leaders felt justified in prevaricating. If the accusers framed their words perfectly, the leaders lied anyway. Their view was that it was more important to live the higher law ? loyalty to the Prophet ? than to expose the truth to Gentiles. A prominent feature of Mormonism is that loyalty trumps honesty. (Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, p. 113. See also B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage, University of Illinois Press, 1992, p. 365.) For an excellent treatment of loyalty and obedience vs. honesty see the following: Link to content.and Link to content.

Listing quotes from people who were practicing polygamy decades after Joseph's death is a worthless exercise. I sure hope JS wasn't watching this guy in 1886 ... a full 42 years after he was murdered (likely because he was gearing up to root out polygamists in the church) ... call him a LIAR and a POLYGAMIST and an ADULTERER.

How very brave of this article's author and accusers.

It's so similar to BY ... 8 years after JS and HS were in the ground. "Guess what everyone! I have a revelation given to JS by the Lord and it's been hidden in my desk drawer for 8 years ... and guess what it says! Polygamy is the celestial law of the Lord! Isn't that wonderful! Nevermind what the Book of Mormon says ... this is a bona fide revelation! Oh, and Emma burned the original copy because she's a big jerk, but thankfully my right-hand-man wrote it all down and I kept it hidden from everyone until now. Glory be!"

Then BY sends married men on missions so he can marry their wives while they're gone. They return to find their wives no longer their wives. Sound like the celestial law of the Lord to you?

But ... keep on listing quotes and testimonies given by 2nd and 3rd hand sources decades after his murder. Par for the course.

We probably both agree that polygamy is wrong. Am I right about that?

I used to hope that your view was the trut view.
That BY was the instigator. That view keeps alive the promise of the restoration. It absolves JS of any fabrications and lies. It keeps his record honorable as it should be. It means he can be trusted not to have lied about the first vision, the Book of Mormon, the priesthood, the book of Abraham, the temple rites coming from god not the mason. It keeps alive the hope the church is true.

The minute you include JS in the polygamy practicing group all the other parts of the restoration are open for closer examination. If JS lied about his polygamy and the doctrine, is this a pattern of Behavior that shows up in his other theologies and histories?

The evidence of Joseph’s polygamy appears to be large enough that the LDS church openly admits it as historical fact. Which then brings into question all of his denials of the practice. Was he a liar? Did the ends of establishing a new doctrinal
Order for marriage justify the means of lying about it to protect it?