The Church is No Longer Ours

[Good & Global]

Here again along the same lines about our country.

Who is to say that the church has not been hijacked and co-opted just like our country has?
(Note: Just because the leaders have undue influence does not mean it is actually theirs)

Many people would assume the leaders of their own political party may have their differences but still care about their country but what if they didn't? Would America look any different than what it does? Sure they have to fight against the citizens that do still care. This does slow them down in destroying it so fast. Because who knows get them too mad and the citizenry might rise up and take out that small minority of privileged politicians.

Likewise with the church, what if it was the same story and the church wouldn't look any different than if the leaders did not care one bit about it and was only just keeping certain things to not alert the awareness of the members. But their real strategy was to wage war against the members that do care about it?

I have some evidences to back up my assertions but I am curious to know what you guys and gals think.

[Original_Intent]

Where is Martin Luther when you need him?

[The Red Pill]

The argument could be made that RMN is following the pope's lead...to demolish the existing church and transform it into the one world UN religion.

Plenty of evidence that would indicate that goal if you're paying attention. From 17 SDG lapel pins to UN partnerships.

I certainly don't recognize the church I grew up in, and am embarrassed and sickened by what they have done to it.

[Good & Global]

The argument could be made that RMN is following the pope's lead...to demolish the existing church and transform it into the one world UN religion.

Plenty of evidence that would indicate that goal if you're paying attention. From 17 SDG lapel pins to UN partnerships.

I certainly don't recognize the church I grew up in, and am embarrassed and sickened by what they have done to it.

I got in trouble from Ymarsakar for having a double bingo on another thread. Don't make me get in trouble again.

There does seem like ample evidence that is the plan for world church leaders to start gathering in the flocks so the people think they are following their religion but are just following the one religion under a different name.

It is the illusion of choice game that they have always played.

Android and Microsoft are not very good on privacy which is why I prefer Apple. They can't all be wrong because they are completely different companies and Apple's leader told me that would never let my privacy go astray. This is why I like Apple. It is my choice and I am sticking to it.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I've read or listened to a number of lectures on the subject of how these at-odds, sometimes diametrically opposed globalist organizations, with their own self interest at stake, appear to be coordinated so well. At the global level, the regional level, the national level, the state and county level. It's a mammoth undertaking to persuade, deceive, pay-off, and direct the destruction of society and build it back in the image of a globalist merchant of the earth.

The one theme that keeps coming through in these many attempts to explain the coordinated war against good, is more than Black Rock pulling the purse strings, or banks threatening to cut off lending to the un-woke. It's more than even the education system training rising generations in the art of hate your founding fathers, reject your freedoms, apostatize from your Christianity and love your new LGBTQ--esque inclusive lifestyle. You have to go one more level higher than all these forces of evil.

Satan.

That's the one unifying force. Despite all these desperate agenda-driven organizations not coordinating their plans, and even some outright working against each other, they end up working for the same agenda because Lucifer is guiding them. He's so good, he can deceive us into believing that we're doing good when we're not. We're fighting evil when in reality we're creating more of it. He's even perfected the art of making us think we're doing the work of God. We're following Jesus, when we're not. John described it as a wolf in sheep's clothing. There is only one person in the Bible who was ever compared to a lamb. And Satan is really good at dressing the part.

I don't blame anyone, even leaders of religious organizations, for falling into Satan's various and many traps. There are complex motivations, social pressures, monetary rewards, fake biology, fake science and fake news that have layers of deception on top of deception. Like a murder mystery or a spy novel. You get to the end, the bad guy is finally exposed, and then you find out the bad guy was really one of the good guys and you're blown away by how you never saw it coming.

Like the saying goes, even the elect will be deceived. But they won't be damned. There's no shame in being deceived. It's a rough world out there. And forgiveness is the one thing that will save us in the end. After all the deceptions have ended, the satanic forces bound, and the deceptions made known from the house tops, we'll sit down with lambs and lions and swords turned into ploughshares and forgive others.

And we'll be much wiser than we would have ever been for all our deceptive trouble had we not experienced the lies first hand, on our own, with a mandate to overcome it all.

[The Red Pill]

Like the saying goes, even the elect will be deceived. But they won't be damned. There's no shame in being deceived.

Not sure I would agree with this part. If we turn back to the war in heaven...Satan and his henchmen deceived 1/3 of the entire lot...and there were very severe and eternally damning consequences for being deceived.

It really didn't matter if you were satan's right hand man...or just one of the billions duped into promises that couldn't be delivered...the punishment was the same. If you found yourself on the wrong side of the truth, it didn't matter how you got there.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Like the saying goes, even the elect will be deceived. But they won't be damned. There's no shame in being deceived.

Not sure I would agree with this part. If we turn back to the war in heaven...Satan and his henchmen deceived 1/3 of the entire lot...and there were very severe and eternally damning consequences for being deceived.

It really didn't matter if you were satan's right hand man...or just one of the billions duped into promises that couldn't be delivered...the punishment was the same. If you found yourself on the wrong side of the truth, it didn't matter how you got there.

I get what you're saying. I wonder if there's a difference between the common man here on earth who by the fakery of fake news, fake Pharma, fake church, and fake government, gets duped by dupers. I wonder if, in the pre-mortal world, there were dupers and dupes as well. Was it just the dupers who were the 1/3 hosts of heaven, or did it include the duped?

Will earthly dupers be treated differently than the duped?

I kind of think so. I think the duped will be forgiven and embraced by Jesus. Sort of like the parable of workers who only came to work one hour, but received the same payment as those who worked the entire day. As long as the duped reject their state of dupedness, they get paid the same wage.

Isn't that what Isaiah was talking about when he repeatedly said, Jesus' hand is stretched out all the day long.

[Thinker]

.. . As long as the duped reject their state of dupeness, they get paid the same wage.

This humble self-honesty & repentance may be a decisive factor of where we gravitate towards in the afterlife. At least according to Swedenborg…

Spoiler

Reposted from another thread:

The World of Spirits - Swedenborg
4:00 State 1: Welcome
6:00 “No one in Heaven or Hell is allowed to have a divided mind, to understand 1 thing & intend something else.” 27: In this life, we can be more divided. :40 Sorting process.
15: Initially, the spirit world is similar to ours - “The 1 life carries on into the other, & death is only a passage.”
18: Marriage afterlife is more about actual compatibility.
24: where focus goes your energy flows - think it & it’s there. Life review/“book of life.”
28: Wake up Call, Clutter cleared & expressing without filter - then pulled back to allow to see their evil - some embarrassed, some want to just keep it hidden but part of the cleansing process is to deal with that so it doesn’t kill them spiritually as it would eventually if not tended to.
34: Every “thing”/building etc is a reflection of sentient beings residing there. You look outwardly as you were inwardly.
41: State 3: Instruction & Preparation… each is free to not believe in God/Heaven, but to ascend to God/Heaven- belief is necessary. We’re taught based on what we’re ready to accept. People r allowed to try out what they imagine Heaven to be (partying/feasting/worshipping constantly etc) to realize that is not so great & then May b ready to experience real Heaven.
47: triforce: Love, Truth, Use - the foundation of all.
52: Need God for each of 12 steps up (AA?)
:54 “Heavenly love is loving what is good, honest & fair because it is good, honest & fair & doing it because of that love” - & this is loving God/others.
:59 Can spirits b earth-bound? Hell is earth-bound - absorbed in carnal pursuits & resist being in light that exposes their hidden/manipulative parts.
1:02 What about people w both good & bad? There is a lot of gray area - but it can be somewhat binary when you think which side does 1 lean toward more throughout life?
https://www.youtube.com/live/qoaPwhzDHWM?feature=share

[BuriedTartaria]

With respect and kindness to believers of the LDS institution, I think there is a major disconnect between the average, believing member and a lot of leadership. If I'm right in that suspicion, I think time will make that clearer. Quick example, recently saw a family member palling around with a true blue Mormon wearing a pretty vocal conservative take shirt on a hot button social issue. And I just thought to myself "brother, if you really think those 15 leaders you revere would appreciate you vocally expressing that view your shirt is expressing, I don't know what to tell you. How can you not see the push from the top to be quiet and not make a scene on social issues?". That's a middle-aged, middle-income True Blue Mormon. What happens when the hammer comes down and the revelation is given telling members to accept modern social trends and modern progressive gender ideology? Will you just accept it because in your mind you belong to the true church that can't go astray, and you'll stand by that even if it means making a clear, absolute 180 change on social issues that you feel passionate about?

"Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation"

^^^^ In relation to the racial issue attached to priesthood this is concerning, I don't care that they made the call they made. In my mind, McConkie making views based off of views from Cannon based off of Brigham Young is the blind leading the blind (no offense to believers in the claims of those individuals). I don't accept anyone attached to the LDS institution as an honest to God prophet after Joseph and Hyrum were killed. But the principle of this quote is how the LDS church operates and it (along side their history) show they follow the world on doctrine and social issues. They will adjust doctrine and practice according to shifting social views. They follow the winds of the world.

[Thinker]

Who is to say that the church has not been hijacked and co-opted just like our country has?...

What if it was the 1 group which you are least likely of ever suspecting or criticizing? The 1 group who is beyond reproach? The 1 group from which most of your religious beliefs are based?

[Rumpelstiltskin]

The argument could be made that RMN is following the pope's lead...to demolish the existing church and transform it into the one world UN religion.

Plenty of evidence that would indicate that goal if you're paying attention. From 17 SDG lapel pins to UN partnerships.

I certainly don't recognize the church I grew up in, and am embarrassed and sickened by what they have done to it.

Isaiah talks a bit about this. In the Gileadi translation and from the Apocalyptic Commentary, it says:

9:14–16 Therefore Jehovah will cut off from Israel head and tail, palm top and reed, in a single day; the elders or notables are the head, the prophets who teach falsehoods, the tail. The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused.

As in ancient times, the political and ecclesiastical leaders of Jehovah’s end-time people resemble one another. Because of their wickedness, Jehovah “cuts off” both from his presence in “a single day”—his Day of Judgment (Isaiah 48:18–19). Because a people’s leaders reflect what the people are, the leaders’ misleading and confusing “these people”—Jehovah’s alienated people—constitutes an integral part of their punishment (cf. Isaiah 3:12). Most reprehensible in the prophets who represent Jehovah to his people are the “falsehoods” or “lies” (seqer) they teach (Isaiah 28:7; 29:10; 32:6–7).

[The Red Pill]

The question does arise of just how so many people get duped. I feel the answer lies in scripture along with a warning.

Scripture tells us about a condition of "walking in darkness at noonday". A complete spiritual blindness of what is really going on around us. Scripture also tells us why the condition exists in people..."because their hearts are set so much upon the things of the world".

I've always wondered why the church never talks about the 4 things we should never go after...found in the last chapter of 1st Nephi. Hugh Nibley talked about them, but not the church...especially lately. These 4 things, we are told, are defining traits of the church of the devil...namely:

1. Seeking riches
2. Seeking popularity
3. Seeking the praise of the world
4. Seeking the lusts of the flesh

Sadly, these are the main focus of just about everyone today. Those in the church do better with number 4...but they sure do pursue items 1-3.

So we have been warned in scripture. We are just not paying attention. Coupled with a leadership that is pretty much AWOL on such teachings to the people.

So...we are left with a people who think they are on the right path...because the leadership is to weak to point out they are not...and these people are not spending time understanding scripture...so they are essentially walking in darkness at noonday...but clueless about their condition.

Can you say Zoramite's?

[BringerOfJoy]

Where is Martin Luther when you need him?

That one is easy: Sandy, Utah. Practicing law in his spare time. Excommunicated--which is always the norm in these situations--for writing and saying the Utah version of "Here I stand. I can do no other." (If indeed Luther actually said those words over which there is some doubt. If he didn't, he should have.) Continuing to write. Continuing to speak out.

[Obeone]

Who is to say that the church has not been hijacked and co-opted just like our country has?

God. He is to say. Did you ask Him?

This is why it is the time when no one can survive on borrowed light anymore. Without revelation you are lost.

I got mine. The Church is still true. It has the keys of the Kingdom of God on earth, and will hold them till the earth shall pass away.

If you can understand that, that is the key to it.

[BringerOfJoy]

... Did you ask Him?...

Sure did. Kneeling by the couch in our missionary apartment near the end of our full-time mission (senior). One of the most ironic moments of my life, but it sure caused a lot of things to fall into place. Funny that you and I apparently got different answers.

I should add that I was a convert to the church 37 years previous to that, and had sacrificed a great deal to join the church in the first place. AND for those 37 years, and for a few more following that revelation. But I learned a lot also.

[Obeone]

... Did you ask Him?...

Sure did. Kneeling by the couch in our missionary apartment near the end of our full-time mission (senior). One of the most ironic moments of my life, but it sure caused a lot of things to fall into place. Funny that you and I apparently got different answers.

What answer did you get?

[The Red Pill]

Who is to say that the church has not been hijacked and co-opted just like our country has?

God. He is to say. Did you ask Him?

This is why it is the time when no one can survive on borrowed light anymore. Without revelation you are lost.

I got mine. The Church is still true. It has the keys of the Kingdom of God on earth, and will hold them till the earth shall pass away.

If you can understand that, that is the key to it.

The gospel as restored through Joseph Smith is true.

The current church is in full blown apostasy. Keys are not maintained when the organization has fallen into apostasy. This is true...or else there would have been no need for a restoration to begin with.

The gospel and the church are two very different things.

[Obeone]

The gospel as restored through Joseph Smith is true.

The current church is in full blown apostasy. Keys are not maintained when the organization has fallen into apostasy. This is true...or else there would have been no need for a restoration to begin with.

The gospel and the church are two very different things.

How do you explain the word of Christ that this is the last dispensation of the gospel, and His kingdom coming forth for the last time, which logically means it will not be destroyed by an apostasy?

[BringerOfJoy]

... Did you ask Him?...

Sure did. Kneeling by the couch in our missionary apartment near the end of our full-time mission (senior). One of the most ironic moments of my life, but it sure caused a lot of things to fall into place. Funny that you and I apparently got different answers.

What answer did you get?

The church never fully came out of the condemnation of 1832, though there were moments of hope between 1832 and 1844. Claims to Melchizedek priesthood were unfounded after the death of Joseph and Hyrum. Aaronic Priesthood held on by a thread for awhile. All that is left now is the Book of Mormon (Thank you, Lord for that!) and shifting sands. All of those ridiculously long hours of family history work and temple work that I had done for years was really for naught because with the death of the Smith brothers, and the inability for the saints to finish the Nauvoo temple in the allotted time--as He warned--He does not accept our work for the dead. (Though sometimes the spirits you did the work for gave you a hat tip for remembering them.)

[Obeone]

The church never fully came out of the condemnation of 1832, though there were moments of hope between 1832 and 1844. Claims to Melchizedek priesthood were unfounded after the death of Joseph and Hyrum. Aaronic Priesthood held on by a thread for awhile. All that is left now is the Book of Mormon (Thank you, Lord for that!) and shifting sands. All of those ridiculously long hours of family history work and temple work I had done for years was really for naught because with the death of the Smith brothers, and the inability for the saints to finish the Nauvoo temple in the allotted time, as he promised the Lord did not acknowledge that work, though sometimes the spirits you did the work for gave you a hat tip for remembering them.

I go to the temple often. I feel the validity of the keys under which the work there is performed every time.

We indeed got very different answers, which means one of us got deceived. I know it is not me.

[BringerOfJoy]

The church never fully came out of the condemnation of 1832, though there were moments of hope between 1832 and 1844. Claims to Melchizedek priesthood were unfounded after the death of Joseph and Hyrum. Aaronic Priesthood held on by a thread for awhile. All that is left now is the Book of Mormon (Thank you, Lord for that!) and shifting sands. All of those ridiculously long hours of family history work and temple work I had done for years was really for naught because with the death of the Smith brothers, and the inability for the saints to finish the Nauvoo temple in the allotted time, as he promised the Lord did not acknowledge that work, though sometimes the spirits you did the work for gave you a hat tip for remembering them.

I go to the temple often. I feel the validity of the keys under which the work there is performed every time.

We indeed got very different answers, which means one of us got deceived. I know it is not me.

Then, you should most assuredly follow the answers you get. It's always educational.

And edited to add: I too have some great spiritual experiences at the temple, but I was told as a new convert that "It is not what you get at the temple, but what you bring to the temple." I believed that, and always prepared for the temple. As I did for sacrament. And I've had similar experiences as many non-LDS sacrament meetings since because I continue to do the same thing. The temple endowment still retains vestiges of truth from the original. The whole point is approaching the veil, and being invited to enter, and that is well worth contemplating. I am glad I went through originally when they were still doing the live endowment, and many things were still in place that have gone away. But it had already been changed significantly by that point.

I think it was BYU Professor Eugene England that said something to the effect that you can even gain truth from Marx's Manifesto if you study it with the spirit. That was also my experience in college at a state university with all it's secularism intact.

[The Red Pill]

The gospel as restored through Joseph Smith is true.

The current church is in full blown apostasy. Keys are not maintained when the organization has fallen into apostasy. This is true...or else there would have been no need for a restoration to begin with.

The gospel and the church are two very different things.

How do you explain the word of Christ that this is the last dispensation of the gospel, and His kingdom coming forth for the last time, which logically means it will not be destroyed by an apostasy?

How would you explain supposed PSR'S that claim they cannot lead you astray...who urged their ENTIRE membership to go Jim Jones with the deadly clot-shot??

Or who hide billions from their own membership through an elaborate deception and fraud scheme??

Or partner and donate millions to the UN??

Or who publicly and openly show support for the gay marriage act?? Trampling the Proclamation in the process.

Should I continue?

[Robin Hood]

Where is Martin Luther when you need him?

Or Abinadi.
Or Alma.
Or even Samuel the Lamanite.

[Obeone]

How do you explain the word of Christ that this is the last dispensation of the gospel, and His kingdom coming forth for the last time, which logically means it will not be destroyed by an apostasy?

How would you explain supposed PSR'S that claim they cannot lead you astray...who urged their ENTIRE membership to go Jim Jones with the deadly clot-shot??

Or who hide billions from their own membership through an elaborate deception and fraud scheme??

Or partner and donate millions to the UN??

Or who publicly and openly show support for the gay marriage act?? Trampling the Proclamation in the process.

Should I continue?

You have not answered my question.

Why should I answer yours? (Besides I answered these questions many times already. Look through my posts.)

[Robin Hood]

Like the saying goes, even the elect will be deceived. But they won't be damned. There's no shame in being deceived.

Not sure I would agree with this part. If we turn back to the war in heaven...Satan and his henchmen deceived 1/3 of the entire lot...and there were very severe and eternally damning consequences for being deceived.

It really didn't matter if you were satan's right hand man...or just one of the billions duped into promises that couldn't be delivered...the punishment was the same. If you found yourself on the wrong side of the truth, it didn't matter how you got there.

Not wanting to derail the thread, but I think it is a little more nuanced. Firstly, it was a third part, not a third ie. 33.3333%, which followed Lucifer. There were three groups, not necessarilyof equal or approximate size. A third part could have been a relatively small overall percentage. And there certainly is a hierarchy amongst the demons. Those who were simply deceived are perhaps not as wicked and committed to the cause as those who did the deceiving.
I know of some accounts of demons found hiding because they're tired and fed up, are continually whipped and pressed by their higher-ups, and are desperate for some respite.