Are we Self Administering Apologists?

[Good & Global]

This is the whole problem that I see in the church is when something doesn't make sense we try to rationalize and find apologist resources for it. First, we appeal to talks or other church articles. When that doesn't work we look for analogies, heart warming stories or folklore.

When that doesn't resolve it, we rationalize with leaders were products of their time or other people do the same or leaders/members are not perfect. When all else fails, we tell them what we want them to think by bearing our testimonies. We can't ever be wrong as that would be the worst thing possible.

It seems most everything at our disposal teaches us to do mental gymnastics or makes us self-adminstering apologists. Anyone care to weigh in?

[Ymarsakar]

When something does not make sense i sleep on it and then i will understand

[IcedKoffee]

This is the whole problem that I see in the church is when something doesn't make sense we try to rationalize and find apologist resources for it. First, we appeal to talks or other church articles. When that doesn't work we look for analogies, heart warming stories or folklore.

When that doesn't resolve it, we rationalize with leaders were products of their time or other people do the same or leaders/members are not perfect. When all else fails, we tell them what we want them to think by bearing our testimonies. We can't ever be wrong as that would be the worst thing possible.

It seems most everything at our disposal teaches us to do mental gymnastics or makes us self-adminstering apologists. Anyone care to weigh in?

When your faith is based on a house of cards or a sandy foundation. You are too insecure to entertain ideas that might threaten your belief system. With a sure foundation (Jesus Christ) comes confidence. That confidence allows you to seek and explore possibilities that lie outside of your biases. There’s no longer the fear of losing it all once previous beliefs and biases prove to be false.

When your foundation is built on sand you’ll perform any level of mental gymnastics necessary to preserve your paradigms. Many say that their foundation is Jesus Christ. But is it really?

If there is anything within your belief system that you aren’t willing to scrutinize and objectively examine. Or even part with. Then there’s a good chance you are guilty of idolatry.

[Luke]

We don’t need to defend anything. Truth is self-evident. If it isn’t popular, who cares, those opposing it are going down to hell anyway.

[InfoWarrior82]

You literally just described a cult.

[Atrasado]

We tend not to be critical thinkers, but that's all of humanity. If you ask 100 Americans who took down the Twin Towers, about 85 to 90 of them will say jihadists, even though it was clearly the US Government which did that. If you ask non-Americans about the fall of the Towers, I suspect that at least half of them think the US Government did it. Why the discrepancy? Our prior beliefs oftentimes are so strong they won't allow us to think otherwise.

I think there is a lot of good evidence that Joseph Smith restored the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think there is also a lot of good evidence that that restoration quickly went off of the tracks. We were driven out of Kirtland, Zion, and Nauvoo. We never finished building the Nauvoo Temple as commanded of God, even though God said they had had enough time to do so. We changed tithing, altered the scriptures, and have changed the endowment who knows how many times. We committed the atrocity of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. We massacred Native Americans. We have supported our Babylonian government and have fully integrated into Babylon in supporting and defending secret combinations and our current Church President is a member of the Brotherhood of Death. Read Isaiah 28 if you don't think that President Nelson belonging to Skull and Bones is significant.

All those things being said, we still had some evidences of God's favor. There were reports of people raised from the dead. There were miraculous instances of healing, and visions, and actual visitations. Over thirty years ago, I still had personal knowledge of actual miracles, although they were rare. But now, I haven't heard of a true miracle as mentioned in the scriptures in at least two decades.

We press forward, but without the faith that we had. Most Mormons think that if they pay their tithing it's ok to be politically progressive. But if it is a grievous sin to think children need to be baptized, what is thinking same-sex marriage is ok? What is being pro-choice? How about gay pride or LGBTQ+++ allies? Most Mormons really don't think things through, do they? Because those "progressive" ideals are what most Mormons, at least in the United States and Canada, think.

No wonder God have us a "prophet" who would tell us to inject poison into ourselves and our loved ones. Morally, we were doing that to ourselves all along.

[JuneBug12000]

Yes.

I used to cover all cognitive dissonance with: but "the restoration" "modern prophets" "new revelation"

Now I just do what Jesus and the Holy Spirit say and I am saddened to see to how often the church disagrees with Jesus.

Not Jesus' fault though.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

This is the whole problem that I see in the church is when something doesn't make sense we try to rationalize and find apologist resources for it. First, we appeal to talks or other church articles. When that doesn't work we look for analogies, heart warming stories or folklore.

When that doesn't resolve it, we rationalize with leaders were products of their time or other people do the same or leaders/members are not perfect. When all else fails, we tell them what we want them to think by bearing our testimonies. We can't ever be wrong as that would be the worst thing possible.

It seems most everything at our disposal teaches us to do mental gymnastics or makes us self-adminstering apologists. Anyone care to weigh in?

Some of what the Church teaches for "confirmation through the Holy Spirit" is nothing more than confirmation bias. They teach you to look for things that confirm they they are teaching the truth - their version of truth. Any inconvenient facts or scriptures can be and are ignored or explained away.

[Thinker]

Adult-children who still seek parental authority to feel secure will use mental gymnastics especially emotional reasoning to defend their substitute parental authorities… mostly subconsciously.

My extended family has sent me all kinds of conferences quotes/talks, church videos & bore emotional reasoning repeated testimonies to try to convince themselves (pretending to try to convince me) that their authorities are better than mine. As Ymarsakar mentioned before, it’s like “My Daddy/authority can beat up your Daddy/authority.”


Edited to add:
If they really weren’t just trying to convince themselves, & truly wanted to convince me, they would seek to know WHY I believe as I do, so they could then offer corrective truth, if they could. But they never have asked what I think. They assume they know everything & I am completely lost, ignorant & in need of their cultish regurgitation that I’ve heard countless times. I have asked them to please just don’t discuss religion but they don’t respect that. It’s really sad when the lds cult hurts family relationships.

[Ymarsakar]

No need to worry about the past. Keep ascending up jakob ladder to heaven. The way will open and in a way u know did not come from Mortal hands

[Obeone]

This is the whole problem that I see in the church is when something doesn't make sense we try to rationalize and find apologist resources for it. First, we appeal to talks or other church articles. When that doesn't work we look for analogies, heart warming stories or folklore.

When that doesn't resolve it, we rationalize with leaders were products of their time or other people do the same or leaders/members are not perfect. When all else fails, we tell them what we want them to think by bearing our testimonies. We can't ever be wrong as that would be the worst thing possible.

It seems most everything at our disposal teaches us to do mental gymnastics or makes us self-adminstering apologists. Anyone care to weigh in?

Doubt your doubts, before you doubt the truth.
Good advice any time.

I know what I know. The church, though in the "wilderness" is still true. Zion is in the wilderness, but is not dead. The keys are here.
If you survive the next 7 years, you will know it.

[Good & Global]

This is the whole problem that I see in the church is when something doesn't make sense we try to rationalize and find apologist resources for it. First, we appeal to talks or other church articles. When that doesn't work we look for analogies, heart warming stories or folklore.

When that doesn't resolve it, we rationalize with leaders were products of their time or other people do the same or leaders/members are not perfect. When all else fails, we tell them what we want them to think by bearing our testimonies. We can't ever be wrong as that would be the worst thing possible.

It seems most everything at our disposal teaches us to do mental gymnastics or makes us self-adminstering apologists. Anyone care to weigh in?

Doubt your doubts, before you doubt the truth.
Good advice any time.

I know what I know. The church, though in the "wilderness" is still true. Zion is in the wilderness, but is not dead. The keys are here.
If you survive the next 7 years, you will know it.

Lol Passive Aggressive testimony bearing. The mark of a true disciple.

[Good & Global]

From your other post and highlighting much of the issues evident in the apostasy of the church
viewtopic.php?t=70860&start=75

I did not expect real time encapsulation of this apologist process whether intentional to be funny or not

Main Points
--------------------

Wrong but still Right -
Orwellian Doublespeak/Church mad at 60 minutes whistleblower in official statements/Revising Church History
https://www.azquotes.com/author/11147-George_Orwell

We do not apologize - This what evil people or psychopaths do
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/03 ... ys-church/

Double down on Denying Any Wrong Doing/Doubts - SEC/Child Abuse Hotline File 13 of reports/Dallin using absence of apologies in scripture as validation to make no effort to repent as a church. It is like an old boy's club with the general membership thinking they are part of it
https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php? ... type=CMSID

[helloitsme]

This is the whole problem that I see in the church is when something doesn't make sense we try to rationalize and find apologist resources for it. First, we appeal to talks or other church articles. When that doesn't work we look for analogies, heart warming stories or folklore.

When that doesn't resolve it, we rationalize with leaders were products of their time or other people do the same or leaders/members are not perfect. When all else fails, we tell them what we want them to think by bearing our testimonies. We can't ever be wrong as that would be the worst thing possible.

It seems most everything at our disposal teaches us to do mental gymnastics or makes us self-adminstering apologists. Anyone care to weigh in?

Some of what the Church teaches for "confirmation through the Holy Spirit" is nothing more than confirmation bias. They teach you to look for things that confirm they they are teaching the truth - their version of truth. Any inconvenient facts or scriptures can be and are ignored or explained away.

Confirmation bias = "Confirmation by us." I'm probably not the first to notice that...

[TheDuke]

The OP statement is interesting. I fully agree with the process but the result depends on each of us and what we do. Funny how I have tossed ALL of the LDS teachings up into the air over the last just shy of 40 years. At some points, I'm not sure I accepted anything taught by the leaders? But, always the spirit told me the principles are true. Now after all the rounds, I say that to me "all truth may be circumscribed into one great whole". It makes sense.

So, to me it is almost or at least partially, like 70% true that the apologies are true. that is I see truths that are inaccurate, study them, toss them, then relearn them and find the principles to be true but the initial statements to be in error. More often than not, all the church's teachings are true at one level of truth and false at another.

BTW I'm talking doctrines and teachings, not the LDS history which seems quite flawed.

One example is the binding of parents to children. Reading how it came about by BY via Adam-God theory (see Stapley's BY Garden Cosmology paper) it seems false. I at first just accepted it, then I rejected it due to BY understanding and implementation; now the Lord shows me it is true, but only for those who are to be real godly parents in the highest level of celestial and nothing to others (possible ministering assignments in post-life) and nothing to do with binding to Adam. Never-the-less it is a true principle an d doctrine.

I say this a people will often see error in a teaching and toss it. Years later to re-accept it due to the spirit and a higher understanding. I see MANY on the forum climbing in knowledge, wholeheartedly rejecting what they see issues with, that are not incorrect as they think, but not as correct as the Q15 try to teach either. Only by questioning everything can we learn everything; yet only by keeping all we learned and rejected close can we overcome our second level of new/innocent misunderstandings.

[FrankOne]

No need to worry about the past. Keep ascending up jakob ladder to heaven. The way will open and in a way u know did not come from Mortal hands

I'm jumping off Jacob's ladder into Daath when I get there. I've been at the edge and it is astonishing. Ascension to the crown is for those that seek it. There is no wrong path.

[Thinker]

No need to worry about the past. Keep ascending up jakob ladder to heaven. The way will open and in a way u know did not come from Mortal hands

I really love this. Thanks again.