Celtic legends about the Bible

[Niemand]

origin-207.jpg (100.03 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

Intro
Previously, I have talked a lot about Middle Eastern and some African works in this series about the Apocrypha/Pseudepigraph. Now for something from a lot further west.

For the purposes of this post, "Celtic" would include:
* Ireland, Wales, Brittany, Scotland (including the Lowlands), Isle of Man, Cornwall - these all retained a Celtic language and culture into modern history.
* England (especially the north and west... beyond Cornwall), much of France, north west Iberia (Portugal, Galicia, Asturias), the Channel Islands ‐ these areas didn't tend to retain the language but did retain some legends, and there are obvious Celtic place names in all of these places.

I have covered some of these ideas already in the thread I previously wrote about Scotland's Biblical connections.
viewtopic.php?t=65207

In this one I will try and go at it from a slightly different angle.

Summary
As with some of the other posts in this series like the one on Biblical legends in the Koran, this will be a work in progress. The Celtic regions converted to Christianity early on, certainly before Scandinavia, the Baltic countries and much of Russia. There is evidence of some ancient connections to the Middle East, instead of desert monasteries, the tendency was for their monks to go out into small remote islands such as Skellig Michael, Lindisfarne, Iona, Bardsey and so on.

* Origin legends. How Celtic peoples related to Biblical tradition.
* Flood myths. Most Celtic cultures have legends about inundation e.g. Lyonesse (Cornwall), Ys (Brittany), the lands off Cardigan Bay (Wales). The Irish also have legends about Noah.
* Legends about Jesus, Paul and others visiting. I used to think these were very far fetched, but it is worth remembering that the Romans conquered some of these territories in the early Christian period. It would have certainly been feasible for Paul to visit London.
* Arthurian Cycle & Holy Grail: most Arthurian legends are not about the Bible, but the Grail Quest is a major exception. The Grail also has later alleged connections to England's West Country and Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland.
* Lia Fail (also known as Stone of Scone, Coronation Stone, Jacob's Pillow etc)
* Pontius Pilate
* The tradition of the cross at Holyrood (near Scottish parliament)
* Gomer and Cymru (Wales)
* Miscellaneous Biblical legends.
* The Michael Line

I'll also throw in something about William Comyns Beaumont who had some curious ideas.

There are a surprising number in these regions, especially Celtic speaking areas which retained a long oral tradition. Some of these legends have not been written down or are little known. There are some which have probably been lost recently. But some are still in circulation. One of the users on here, "the Christian", is aware of these legends among Scottish travellers. A lot of the legends of the travelling peoples are badly recorded, and there are several branches of them which have almost been completely lost (there used to be sea travellers who plied the west coast, which are AFAIK now completely gone, with their culture.) Some were gypsies and some not.

The Travelling/Gypsy people of Great Britain have oral traditions that their forefather was Abraham thru Ishmael .....
Its said that the Travelling clans of Scotland were the first peoples to set foot in that land, that they once ruled it in the mists of time ..............

Pontius Pilate and Fortingall

The-famous-yew-tree-in-the-churchyard-of-the-village-of-Fortingall-in-highland-Perthshire-1200x854.jpg (312.25 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

One old Scottish legend states that Pontius Pilate was born in the village of Fortingall in Perthshire. The tradition is that he was born to a Roman soldier and a local woman, possibly a chieftain's daughter.

Fortingall is a pretty village. I have been there a number of times. It is most famous for its yew, which is thousands of years old.

Did Pilate come from here? I think not. There is better evidence he came from Seville in Spain. Fortingall would have been well outside the Roman zone at that time, further north than the Roman Empire ever came although they did launch expeditions into northern Scotland and fight battles there. There may have been an outpost at Perth itself (Bertha), but the most northerly limits were between the Forth-Clyde Isthmus along the Antonine Wall which is a good distance away. Even that was intermittent, with Hadrian's Wall (now south of the Scottish border) being the main boundary for most of the Roman Occupation.

Fortingall is in hill country. It would have been extremely remote and barbaric. It is possible Roman soldiers may have raped or even married local women, but unlikely that one their children would have ended up in a role like Pilate's.

One of the Perthshire water sprites is called Peallaidh (pronounced "Pelly"), and gives his name to the nearby Obar Pheallaidh or Aberfeldy. Is it possible that someone confused Peallaidh and Pilate? There is a similarity in the names. Perhaps Peallaidh was originally connected up with the yew and was a pagan deity there.

The Michael Line
There are two supposed Michael Lines, dedicated to the archangel. Some of those who believe in these think that they will play some kind of role in the Apocalypse with St. Michael destroying the dragon.

Here is the less significant one. It runs from Cornwall into East Anglia. By the looks of it, it probably ran into the Isles of Scilly once. (Scilly is the green dot in the bottom left of the screenshot. It used to be a much bigger landmass within the Bronze Age and even Roman times. It is now fragmented into many islands.) I'm sceptical of this one in a way, since churches dedicated to St. Michael are very common. However, Glastonbury Tor (top) is a significant point on it, as is Avebury Stone Circle. Glastonbury has associations with Jesus and Joseph of Arimathea, St. Michael and is now a mecca for mystics and music fans.

st michael ley line.png (779.18 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

Here is the other one, which is much cooler. It runs through some amazing locations. This video is worth watching for the locations alone, whether or not you subscribe to this idea. This greater line has been traced from Skellig Michael, off SW Ireland, through St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall, Mont St. Michel in Brittany through various continental churches and so on, into the Middle East. Many of these are dramatic places unlike most of the ones in the previous video. I know some have traced the line even further than this video and connected it to an Icelandic location and ones in the Arabic lands and Indian Ocean. (Under 8 minutes)

Jesus in Cornwall?
Short summary of some mostly Cornish legends, including the Pontiesu (sp?), which means in the Cornish language "Jesus' bridge." This area intersects with two of the Michael lines, mentioned above. (3 minutes approx.)

Since this is where a lot of tin was exported into the Middle East back to Ancient Egyptian times, perhaps this is the most likely place a Middle Eastern trader would land in the unlikely event that they would visit these islands to begin with.

[Niemand]

Just a few pictures of the seven sanctuaries on that big Michael line, because they look amazing.

Screenshot_20230530-135326_Brave.jpg (162.16 KiB) Viewed 1118 times

Screenshot_20230530-135321_Brave.jpg (323.92 KiB) Viewed 1118 times

Approximate map listing other locations. Not to scale.

18587406.png (98.88 KiB) Viewed 1100 times

Skellig Michael/Scellig Mhichil, SW Ireland


"Christ's Saddle" on Skellig Michael


The old monastery on Skellig Michael. (As featured in a recent Star Wars sequel)


---
St Michael's Mount in Cornwall (SW UK), aka Karrek Loos yn Koos (Grey Rock in the Wood) also Carrick Looze in Kooze and various other spellings.




---
Mont St. Michel on the border of Brittany and Normandy, in NW France. In Breton, Menez Mikael ar Mor (mount of Michael on the sea).




---
Sacra di San Michele, Piedmont, NW Italy




---
Monte Sant'Angelo (Mondé, mountain of the holy angel) near Monte Gargano



---
Holy Monastery of Archangel Michael Panormitis on Symi, an island in SE Greece




---
Mount Carmel (Arabic: Jabal Mār Ilyās, mount of Elias/Elijah, see 1 Kings 18:30-32), Haifa, NW of the state of Israel

[Ymarsakar]

A straight line is a curve? lol

[Niemand]

d17281cf9f36879ad3fc8ee0e56d72c5.jpg (85.06 KiB) Viewed 1070 times

The 8th century Inchbrayock Stone from Scotland, a Pictish work. It is post-Christian, but some interpret this as Samson using the donkey's jawbone (in Hebrew lekhi or lehi) to slay the Philistines.

It may be that the evangelisation consisted of several waves:
* During the Roman period (early disciples) - the rawest form of Christianity, possibly with content directly from the Middle Easr. Followed in by other forms.
* Constantine's imperial church.
* Late/post-Roman From Wales/Cornwall etc into Ireland, Brittany, what is now Scotland (Pictish territories), and parts of England taken by pagan Anglo-Saxons.
* From the Gaelic areas (Ireland, Iona etc) into northern Scotland and northern England.
* The Augustinian mission sent by the Vatican to southern England. This sought to crush Celtic traditions.
* Another set of missions, this time to re-evangelise the areas taken over by pagan Norsemen/Vikings.

There are traditions that Patrick may not have been the first into Ireland. Somewhere like Yorkshire may have experienced all of these waves in some form.

St. Paul in Britain
I've lifted these two quotes from the thread about Scotland I mentioned above. Both are relevant to many of the other areas in these islands. The Christian mentions a very old tradition that St. Paul himself preached on the streets of London.

London then would have been a very different place. For a start it would have been far smaller. The Thames would have been swampy and sluggish and prone to flooding. It was not always the capital of the Roman province of Britannia but it was certainly one of the major ports. It would have been difficult but feasible for Middle Easterners to get there. It would also depend whether the sailors went up by Gaul (modern France), mainly by land then a short crossing, or round Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal) in which case then he could have made landfall in Cornwall, Devon or Somerset in the south west.

The poet and illustrator William Blake was aware of this legend and featured it in his work. Blake thought Paul had preached not far from where St. Paul's cathedral is in London today.

The early christian fathers say Britain had the gospel in AD 38, that certain Apostles came there, some also said that the British church was the most ancient in western europe and this was only challenged by the catholic church in 1409........
In the second century AD, Tertullian wrote that the extremities of Spain, parts of Gaul, and the regions of Britain which had never been penetrated by Roman arms had received the religion of Christ.
The church historian Eusebius (AD 265-340) said, “The Apostles passed beyond the ocean to the isles called the Britannic Isles.”

The venerable Bede (AD 670-735) wrote, “The Britons preserved the faith which they had received, uncorrupted and entire, in peace and tranquility until the time of the Emperor Diocletian”
As late as AD 634, the Churches in Ireland and northern England were independent of the churches on the continent that were subject to the bishoprics within the Roman Empire. In 634, the Britons and Scots said, “All the world errs; Rome and Jerusalem err; only the Scotti and the Britons are right.”
Theodoret, bishop of Cyprus, wrote, “Paul liberated from his first captivity at Rome, preached the gospel to the Britons.
Irenæus, Tertullian, Origen, Mello, Eusebuis, and Athanasius all confirm that Paul preached in Britain.

The old St. Paul's Cathedral destroyed in 1666 by the Great Fire of London

In turkish archives theres a manuscript concerning the Apostles Acts its 29th chapter speaks of the location of some of the lost ten tribes.
“And Paul, full of the blessings of Christ, and abounding in the spirit, departed out of Rome, determining to go into Spain; for he had a long time purposed to journey thitherwards, and he was minded to go from thence into Britain. For he had heard in Phoenicia that certain of the children of Israel, about the time of the Assyrian captivity, had escaped by sea to the ‘isles afar off’ as spoken by the prophet, and called by the Roman’s Britain. And the Lord has commanded the gospel to be preached far hence to the Gentiles, and to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. . .”

st.pauls-bomb-damage.jpg (105.43 KiB) Viewed 1070 times

The new St. Paul's Cathedral in London rising phoenix-like out of the bombed ruins of London.

Thanks for posting this info.
The Celtic Church predated the Roman missionaries and claimed it was established by John. Many of it's doctrines and practices were at odds with Rome, and they did not accept the authority of the bishop of Rome.
The Roman and Celtic churches ended up having a big showdown just up the road from me at Whitby Abbey. The Roman's won and the British church simply faded away.

This is generally true, but it was a long fade. Celtic church traditions managed to survive to the time od the Reformation. In some remote places, especially western Ireland, west Brittany and the West Highlands of Scotland, which didn't turn Protestant, some genuine Celtic church traditions lasted into the 20th century.

In his Ecclesiastical History of the English People, the Venerable Bede criticises the Celtic Church for being so apathetic towards the English (Anglo-Saxon) settlers. He laments that they made no effort whatsoever to preach the gospel to them or to convert them to the Christian faith.

The Welsh and Cornish had an ancient animosity to the English settlers as their enemies, and this may explain this. The missions seem to have come instead from the Scots and the Picts, and re-converted the Lothians, Scottish Borders and north east England into the Midlands.

I note the great hypocrisy of the Roman church in these matters. In recent times, the Church of Rome has had masses with Orthodox style "Eastern Rite" masses, and similar ones to lure in Coptics and Syro-Malabar (Middle Eastern/native Indian Christianity). They could have come to some compromise in which Celtic monasticism and church rites retained their flavour. The Celtic Church was very much based around monasticism, and the Eastern Orthodox church has been run by monks and abbots in a way the Roman one hasn't. (In lower orders, both Celtic and Orthodox priests and monks could marry).

[Niemand]

Now when it was noised abroad that the apostle had landed on their coast, great multitudes of the inhabitants met him, and they treated Paul courteously, and he entered in at the east gate of their city [London], and lodged in the house of an Hebrew and one of his own nation. And on the morrow he came and stood upon Mount Lud; and the people thronged at the gate, and assembled in the Broadway, and he preached Christ unto them, and many believed the word and the testimony of Jesus...And it came to pass that certain of the Druids came unto Paul privately, and showed by their rites and ceremonies they were descended from the Jews which escaped from bondage in the land of Egypt, and the apostle believed these things, and he gave them the kiss of peace. And Paul abode in his lodgings three months, confirming in the faith and preaching Christ continually.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Paul_in_Britain

The work suggests the early entry of Christianity into Britain by Paul the Apostle, Simon Zelotes and Joseph of Aramathea. It lists thirty one different druidic universities which he says had been established in most of the subsequently well known English cities (which Morgan named using real or invented Welsh names).

Morgan was a Welsh clergyman. Morgan would not have had to invent names for most major English cities, since they already have Welsh names. Many of these are based on the old Roman names, which in turn are based on Celtic ones.

Morgan is not the only one to link the Celtic druids with Judaism or Christianity. Druidism, notably, were one of two or three religions that the Roman Empire took exception to and heavily persecuted. The Romans smashed up the Druid sanctuaries in Ynys Môn/Anglesey (Mona), much like they flattened the temple in Jerusalem. The druids were one of the best organised priesthoods outside of Judaism and merged later with Christian influences. Sometimes it is hard to disentangle which came first.

There also seem to be more unsavoury Middle Eastern influences upon druidic religion including child sacrifice and Baal worship.

The book makes the claim that Caratacus and his family was converted to Christianity and that he founded "the royal family of ancient Britain,— of whom her present Majesty, Queen Victoria, is, through the Tudors, the lineal blood representative." He also argued that Boudica was a Christian and related by marriage to Paul the Apostle

https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/apostle ... y-map.html

There is also evidence, though not conclusive, that Paul also preached the gospel in Britain (Britannia).

The Lost Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_ ... e_Apostles

The Lost Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, also known as the Sonnini Manuscript, is a short text purporting to be the translation of a manuscript containing the 29th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, detailing Paul the Apostle's journey to Britannia, where he preached to a tribe of Israelites on "Mount Lud" (Ludgate Hill), later the site of St Paul's Cathedral, and met with Druids, who proved to him that they were descended from Jews. Thereafter, Paul preached in Gaul and Belgium, and then to Switzerland (Helvetia), where a miraculous earthquake occurred at the site of Pontius Pilate's supposed suicide.

The text made its first appearance in London in 1871.[2] According to the editor, it was translated in the late 18th century by the French naturalist Sonnini de Manoncourt from a "Greek manuscript discovered in the archives at Constantinople and presented to him by the Sultan Abdoul Achmet". It was found hidden in an English translation of Sonnini's Voyage en Grèce et en Turquie in the library of Sir John Newport, MP (1756–1843) after his death.

The manuscript claims that Paul visited Brittany and then landed at a port called Raphin(i)us, sometimes identified with the modern town of Sandwich.

Another source is Our Neglected Heritage, by Gladys Taylor. This suggests Paul first landed in the Isle of Wight, also known as Vectis or later as Ynys Wyth.

As to the place of St. Paul's arrival in Britain, we have a little local history given by a Miss Hargrove in an old history of the Isle of Wight. She speaks of St. Paul arriving "with several other Christians, some of whom had been in personal contact with our blessed Lord Himself. He [Paul] landed at Bonefon in the Isle of Wight. The exact spot is now Sandown Bay, which was a mouth of the harbour of Brading....He passed to the mainland from Rhydd, the ferry or passage now called Ryde, to Aber Deo, the port of God, or Godsport" -- Gosport!

This is worth pointing out as it suggests a transmission of tradition from the Roman-era Celts to later non-Celtic speaking Anglo-Saxons.

George F. Jowett suggests another possibility

"it is claimed that Paul landed at what is now a suburb of the great naval port of Portsmouth, known over the ages and to present times as 'Paul's Grove.' From here he evidently made his way into Cambria..." (The Drama of the Lost Disciples, p. 192)

Lionel Smithett Lewis was aware of this tradition and wrote, in his book St. Joseph of Arimathea at Glastonbury, the following --

In the south of England also there lingers a tradition of St. Paul's landing. Close to busy modern Portsmouth stands what was the village of Porchester, at the far end of the harbour. As its name denotes, it was a Roman Fort, and the foundations of the castle are still there. It was the chief port also of this part of the country, and was called Portus Adurnis. The modern Portsmouth was then a mud flat, at the entrance to this busy flourishing port. Locally the traditions of this busy port remain, and there is a further tradition that St. Paul landed to the east of the present Porchester at a spot still called Paul's Grove or Paul Grove. Until lately there was a grove of ancient trees running down to the water's edge, but the trees are now nearly gone. A main road runs through what was the grove, and an oil depot occupies part of it! A few old trees on the far side of the road still linger on private ground attached to an old house, sole tangible witness of the ancient tradition, and possibly of the great Apostle there. But still the name Paul's Grove lingers as a suburb of Portsmouth. (1988: Cambridge, pp. 79-80.)

Simon the Zealot and his martyrdom
Simon's alleged visit:

https://www.hope-of-israel.org/1stcent.htm

To all this calamity Joseph of Arimathea and his small band of workers at Glastonbury were sorrowful spectators. Mention is made in the Magna Tabula Glastonia (cited by Ussher) of Joseph traveling to Gaul in 60 A.D. -- at the beginning of the Boudicean War -- and returning to Britain with another band of recruits. In this band was Simon Zelotes, one of the original twelve disciples of the Messiah. Before leaving Gaul the apostle Philip consecrated Joseph and his new band of co-workers -- probably because the inclusion of Simon Zelotes indicated an important missionary effort.

Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople and Byzantine historian (758-829 A.D.) writes --

Simon born in Cana of Galilee who for his fervent affection for his Master and great zeal that he showed by all means to the Gospel, was surnamed Zelotes, having received the Holy Ghost from above, travelled through Egypt, and Africa, then through Mauretania and all Lybia, preaching the Gospel. And the same doctrine he taught to the Occidental Sea, AND THE ISLES CALLED BRITANNIAE

.

The evangelizing mission of Simon was short-lived. He was finally arrested under the orders of Catus Decianus. As usual his trial was a mockery. He was condemned to death and was crucified by the Romans at Caistor, Lincolnshire, and there buried circa May 10, 61 A.D.

The day of Simon's martyrdom is officially celebrated by the eastern and western church (Catholic) on May 10th and so recorded in the Greek Menology, which has proven to be highly accurate. Cardinal Baronius, in his Annales Ecclesiastici, gives the same date in describing the martyrdom and burial of Simon Zelotes in Britain.

Dorotheus, Bishop of Tyre (300 A.D.) writes in his work Synopsis de Apostol:

Simon Zelotes traversed all Mauretania, and the region of the Africans, preaching Christ. He was at last crucified, slain and buried in Britain.

Aristobulus, brother of Barnabad

Achau Saint Prydain(Genealogies of the Saints of Britain): "These came with Bran the Blessed from Rome to Britain -- Arwystli Hen [Aristobulus the Aged], Ilid [Joseph of Arimathea], Cyndaf [chief, or head], man of Israel, Maw or Mawan, son of Cyndaf [Josephes -- Joseph of Arimathea's son]."

Arwystli Hen or Aristobulus the Elder is recorded in ancient sources and tradition as the Bishop of Britain and a forerunner of Paul's mission. He may also be the first Christian martyr there. An area of the traditional county of Montgomeryshire in Wales is called Arwystli after hi.

In the Martyrologies of the Greek Church, the Greek Menology for March 15 reads:

Aristobulus was one of the seventy disciples, and a follower of St. Paul the Apostle, along with whom he preached the Gospel to the whole world, and ministered to him. He was chosen by St. Paul to be the missionary bishop to the land of Britain, inhabited by a very warlike and fierce race. By them he was often scourged, and repeatedly dragged as a criminal through their towns, yet he converted many of them to Christianity. He was there martyred after he had built churches and ordained deacons and priests for the island.

[Niemand]

Holyrood Abbey

Holyrood is near central Edinburgh. It is the current royal residence (often called Holyroodhouse or Holyrood Palace) and the Scottish Parliament is nearby. It is at the foot of the hill of Arthur's Seat, and Salisbury Crags (another part of the same hill range.)

Legend relates that in 1127, while King David I [of Scots] was hunting in the forests to the east of Edinburgh during the Feast of the Cross, he was thrown from his horse after it had been startled by a hart. According to variations of the story, the king was saved from being gored by the charging animal when it was startled either by the miraculous appearance of a holy cross descending from the skies, or by sunlight reflected from a crucifix which suddenly appeared between the hart's antlers while the king attempted to grasp them in self-defence. As an act of thanksgiving for his escape, David I founded Holyrood Abbey on the site in 1128.

In the church was preserved, in a golden reliquary, an object said to be a fragment of the True Cross brought by David's mother, St. Margaret, from Waltham Abbey, and known thereafter as the Black Rood of Scotland (the Holyrood (cross)). At the battle of Neville's Cross, in 1346, this precious relic fell into the hands of the English, and it was placed in Durham Cathedral, from where it disappeared at the Reformation.

Holyrood Abbey, with Holyrood Palace, and the hill of Arthur's Seat beyond.

An old joke by sceptics is that there are/were so many Roman Catholic fragments of the "true cross" that they could have built Noah's Ark from them.

The motif of the cross in the antlers is probably not native, but instead appears to have been a legend from the Alps. St. Hubertus was supposed to have found a crucifix in antlers, and the legend forms the basis for the logo of Jägermeister, an alcoholic drink from the area. Hubertus is said to have lived in the seventh century. Before Hubertus, there is also St. Eustace (Placidus or Plakidad), who saw a vision of a cross between a stag's antlers. He is said to have died in the second century, around a thousand years before the Holyrood legend.

The origin of the Greek legend is most likely found in the orient, likely Anatolia, perhaps Cappadocia, [modern day Turkey] where the stag has long been venerated in local cults.

The similarity of the stag hunting scene with certain tales of the Mabinogion [a Welsh cycle of legends] have been explained by Vielle (1990) as reflecting an underlying "Celto-Calatian" model

St. Eustace and the stag

King David's mother Margaret was ethnically English, and married into the old Celtic royal family, but was raised in Hungary. It is possible that she introduced this legend. Margaret was extremely hostile to Celtic culture and church traditions and attempted to bring them more in line with England and the Continent. For this reason, she was turned into a saint by the Vatican. Her son King David continued this tradition and imported many Anglo-Norman families who also often had scant regard for local tradition.

However, if there are similarities in the Mabinogion, this raises the possibility of an indigenous origin, from the ancient Welsh/Brythonic peoples living in the area of Edinburgh. It is a long while since I read the Mabinogion so I can't remember which details are relevant here.

hubertus_00.png (209.92 KiB) Viewed 1049 times

Legend of St. Hubertus.

[Niemand]

I will be adding some more material to this thread as time goes on.

This is part of my ongoing series on Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical works:
The "official" Apocrypha
1 Esdras inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1343974

2 Esdras (the most relevant book in the Apocrypha?) inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1344302

1 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?t=69454

2 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?t=69468

3 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?t=69496

4 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?t=69515

Book of Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy/Jeremiah
viewtopic.php?t=69433

Book of Tobit inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1341501

Apocryphal additions to Esther inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1343414

Bel and the Dragon (quoted in full, KJV; inc audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?t=69261

(Also Underrated Bible stories #3: Habakkuk's Hair-raising Experience (from Bel & the Dragon in the KJV Apocrypha)
viewtopic.php?t=69509 )

Prayer of Azarias and Hymn of the Three Children (quoted in full KJV, inc. audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?p=1341611

Book of Judith and the Book of Mormon, inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?t=69402

Book of Susanna inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?t=69386

Wisdom of Solomon
viewtopic.php?t=69469

Book of Sirach or Ecclesiasticus
viewtopic.php?t=69412

Prayer of Mannases (aka Mannaseh; quoted in full KJV, inc. audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?t=69263

Psalm 151 (quoted in full, NRSV)
viewtopic.php?t=63875

Four Apocryphal Psalms - 152, 153, 154, 155
viewtopic.php?t=69985

Ethiopian Canon...

The Ethiopian canon. This includes brief info on the books of Sinodos, Ethiopian Clement, Ethiopian Covenant, and Didascalia as well as a list of other works in the canon.
viewtopic.php?t=69540

The Book of Enoch
viewtopic.php?t=69577

Book of Jubilees (Apocrypha) aka the Little Genesis or Leptogenesis - Cain, Moses, Enoch, Nephilim
viewtopic.php?t=69548

1 Meqabyan (Ethiopian canon), another lost book?
viewtopic.php?t=69855

2 Meqabyan (Ethiopian canon), - the return of Tsirutsaydan
viewtopic.php?t=69971

3 Meqabyan (Ethiopian canon) a Question of Satan, another lost work?
viewtopic.php?t=70277

The First and Second Books of Adam and Eve (the Conflict with Satan)
viewtopic.php?t=70846

Lost works and nearly lost works
The LDS Bible Dictionary on Lost Books and non-canonical works referred to in the Bible.
viewtopic.php?t=69805

Antilegomena: the books which barely made it into the Bible - Revelation, Esther, Song of Songs, James etc
viewtopic.php?p=1350652

Is Q canonical? How about the Gospel of Thomas? The answer's more complicated than you think.
viewtopic.php?t=69715

Other New Testament works
The Gospel of Nicodemus or Acts of Pilate, as tested on Mennonites
viewtopic.php?t=69760

3 Corinthians (Armenian canon)
viewtopic.php?t=69567

Epistle to the Laodiceans (NT, quoted in full Wycliffe's translation, )
viewtopic.php?t=64025

The Book of Odes - this is an Eastern Orthodox work of limited interest, but included for the sake of completeness.
viewtopic.php?t=69470

The Epistle of Barnabas (NT Apocrypha) - link between OT and NT, or not?
viewtopic.php?t=69679

1 Clement: Papist propaganda or a window into the early church?
viewtopic.php?p=1368842

2 Clement: Inclement Gnosticism?
viewtopic.php?t=70327

The Didache or Teachings of the Apostles
viewtopic.php?t=69698

The Shepherd of Hermas - inspired literature or pagan trash?
viewtopic.php?t=69650

The Three different Apocalypses of Peter: Guides to the universe or sadism? The ancient Apocalypse of Peter, the Arabic Apocalypse of Peter and the Nag Hammadi/Gnostic Text of the same name.
viewtopic.php?t=70682

A post on the Restored Branch, an English LDS microsect and its canon which includes works from the Nag Hammadi and Gnostic texts: these are the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Phillip, the Gospel of Truth (sic), the Letter of the Apostle Paul, the Sophia (Wisdom) of Jesus the Christ, the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles and the Letter of Peter which he sent to Philip.
viewtopic.php?t=70413

On other interrelated religions:
The Samaritans, their canon and its significance
viewtopic.php?t=69905

My thread about the Koran, and its use of figures from the Bible, the Apocrypha and extracanonical material. How useful a source is the Koran itself? Does it have any real extra information on Biblical figures? This is something of work in progress.
viewtopic.php?t=70169

Was Zoroaster/Zarathustra a lost prophet of God? Some surprising links between this largely forgotten figure and Judaism, plus the Gathas.
viewtopic.php?t=65938

My thread on a bizarre Middle Eastern sect and their beliefs. Are the Yezidis of the Middle East an ancient Satanist group or a lost Jewish tribe? And what is the connection between their religion and today's rainbow flag? Is this strange group simply misunderstood?
viewtopic.php?t=70625

[Niemand]

Tuan Mac Cairill

Flood survivors, Noah's sons etc
In my thread on the Koran and Biblical content within it, I discuss its very different perspective on the legend of Noah.
viewtopic.php?t=70169
I mention how in:

Koran 11: 42–43 One of Noah's own sons refused to go on the ark and was drowned. (This is hinted at in Ezekiel 14:20) In Muslim tradition (but not the Koran) the son is said to have been either Canaan (Kan'an) or Yam. This son is supposed to have tried to save himself by climbing a mountain. The legend of one of Noah's sons drowning also turns up in Ireland, well away from the Islamic world, suggesting this is a pre-Islamic story.

There are various stories in Celtic legend about the Flood or floods. In Gaelic (Scottish and Irish) tradition, it is said that there must be one survivor of any disaster (presumably this is so they can tell the tale...)

According to the Lebor Gabála [Book of Settlements], Cessair was the daughter of Noah's non-Biblical son Bith and his wife Birren. Cessair's father's name, 'Bith', is derived from the proto-Celtic Bitu-, which can mean "world", "life", or "age" [or existence, being etc] (cf. Bituitus).

In some versions of the tale, Noah tells them to go to the western edge of the world to escape the coming flood. In other versions, after being denied a place on Noah's Ark, Cessair tells her people to create an idol to advise them. This idol tells them to escape the flood by sailing to Ireland. They set out in three ships and reach Ireland after a long journey. However, when they attempt to land, two of the ships are lost. The only survivors are Cessair, forty-nine other women, and three men: Fintan mac Bóchra, Bith, and Ladra.

According to the Annals of the Four Masters, they landed in Ireland at Dún na mBarc on Bantry Bay forty days before the flood, in Age of the World 2242. According to Seathrún Céitinn's chronology, they arrived in 2361 BC.

Seathrún Céitinn also refers to a legend in which three fishermen from Iberia—Capa, Lavigne, and Luasad—were driven to Ireland by a storm a year before the flood. They liked Ireland and returned home to collect their wives. They returned shortly before the flood and were drowned.

As usual I don't entirely agree with Wikipedia's interpretation, but I'll quote it anyway.

Tuan mac Cairill was a recluse who retains his memories from his previous incarnations, going back to Antediluvian age. Initially a follower of Partholon, he alone survived the plague, or the Flood, that killed the rest of his people. Through a series of animal transformations he survived into Christian times, and, in conversation with St. Finnian of Moville told a brief history of himself and of Ireland from his people onward to the coming of St. Patrick...He was eventually converted to Christianity, and conversed with St. Patrick and Colum Cille.

Although there is evidence of reincarnation beliefs among the Celtic peoples, that first sentence is misleading. But you read a lot of these Celtic legends, what is being referred to is often transformation or transmigration, rather than reincarnation. Tuan is transformed into various animals, and so on, but that isn't quite incarnation. As such, he is a semi-pagan figure, much like Merlin/Myrddin in the Welsh/Arthurian stories.

Mac Cairill is also of interest, and here's something you won't get off Wikipedia. It's cognate with the common Irish surname Carroll, and the much less common Scottish surname McKerlie, which comes from Galloway in the south west of Scotland.

The name Partholon (modern Gaelic: Pàrlan) mentioned there is sometimes connected up with Bartholomew, and again, forms the basis of some modern surnames e.g. MacFarlane (MacPhàrlain), McPartland etc, and Dunfermline in Fife, Scotland (Dùn Phàrlain – the fort of Partholon), a former national capital.

Dunfermline in Fife, Scotland

The Lebor Gabála Érenn, [book of the settlements of Ireland] an 11th-century Christian pseudo-history of Ireland, says that Ireland was settled six times, with Partholón and his followers being the second group. The number may have been chosen to match the "Six Ages of the World". According to the Lebor Gabála, Ireland was uninhabited following the deaths of Cessair and her companions in the Flood. It says that Partholón came from Greece and was the son of Sera, son of Sru, who was himself a descendant of Magog, son of Japheth, who was the son of Noah. Partholón and his people sail to Ireland via Sicily and Iberia, arriving 300 or 312 years after the flood and landing at Inber Scéne (Kenmare in County Kerry). With Partholón were his wife (Delgnat), their three sons (Slanga, Rudraige and Laiglinne), the sons' wives (Nerba, Cichba and Cerbnad), and a thousand followers.

Partholón and all of his people—five thousand men and four thousand women—died of the plague in a single week, on Senmag (the "old plain"), near modern Tallaght.

A lot of these stories are likely Christianised versions of pagan legends... having some remote connections to the Mediterranean. Some later oral versions of these stories in Scotland have such figures surviving the flood on remote islands, or even on high mountains (sometimes succumbing to the waves after others have perished).

[Niemand]

One of the ancient traditions is that Joseph of Arimathea also visited these islands. He is said to have stopped at Glastonbury, which is an area also associated with King Arthur (Glastonbury Tor is the top picture in this thread). In some versions of the story Joseph of Arimathea visited by himself and in others he took a young Jesus with him. These are not as outlandish as they first appear since there is some mainstream archaeological evidence of ancient contact between this area and the Middle East.

saint-joseph-of-arimathea.jpg (79.53 KiB) Viewed 1002 times

Glastonbury is in the county of Somerset in south west England. The Welsh know it as Gwlad yr Haf (the land of summer), possibly a reference to the River Severn nearby, known as Hafren in Welsh (Sabrina in Latin). Some sources relate the name to Somerton (Summertown), but I think it is more a case of Somerset, Somerton and the Severn all sharing a common root.

In the old days, the sea went right inland to Glastonbury itself and visitors would have been able to sail there. This is the reverse of what happened to the Isles of Scilly, where a much larger landmass has shrunken into a number of smaller islands.

If you have a few minutes to spare, this Coptic convert has written about connections between the old church and Egyptian Christian traditions. (The first few paragraphs are about Coptic Orthodoxy, but he talks about Egyptian graves in Ireland, and the connection of St. Patrick, St. Adamnan (St Columba's biographer), St. David of Wales etc with the Egyptian church... and the discovery of Egyptian bowls in Anglo-Saxon graves.

http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/coptic- ... sh-church/

We certainly know that from ancient times trading for tin took place from the Mediterranean to Britain. Indeed the legend that our Lord Jesus visited Britain with his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, is based on the well established fact that there was trade in tin across the Roman empire.

We have a documented example in the life of John the Merciful, the Greek Patriarch of Alexandria in the early seventh century. In the Life we find mentioned a sailor who turned to the Patriarch for help, and who was sent to Britain. This excerpt describes a miracle which took place, and also illustrates the trade connections between Egypt and Britain at this time, and in earlier centuries.

We know that some British people travelled to Egypt and prayed at the shrine of St Mina because they brought back the little pottery flasks filled with blessed oil which were sold there. These are found in many places in Europe, but also in the British Isles. We know that the shrine was especially popular between 500-640 AD. But after the Muslim invasion of Egypt international pilgrimage dried up.

The Glastonbury Thorn before being destroyed in 2010.

Glastonbury had a supposed memento of Joseph's visit, a tree which grew near Glastonbury until recently. Wikipedia. Note also the references to Summer.

According to legend, Joseph of Arimathea visited Glastonbury with the Holy Grail and thrust his staff into Wearyall Hill, which then grew into the original thorn tree. Early writers do not connect Joseph to the arrival of Christianity in Britain, and the first literary source to place him in Britain appeared in the thirteenth century. The historicity of Joseph's presence in Glastonbury remains controversial, but the thorn is first mentioned in a pamphlet published by Richard Pynson in 1520 called Lyfe of Joseph of Armathie, which was almost certainly commissioned by Glastonbury Abbey. In this account, the miraculous winter-flowering Thorn is paired with an equally remarkable walnut tree that grew in the Abbey grounds and was said to flower on Midsummer's Day. Both were seen as marks of divine favour, proof that Glastonbury was 'the holyest erth of Englande'...The Thorn was chopped down by a zealous Parliamentary soldier, probably in 1647.

Some cuttings have been taken of the thorn tree, with varying success. Also in Glastonbury are two oaks, known as the Oaks of Albion or Gog and Magog (another Biblical allusion)

At the time of the 1906 felling of the avenue one of the oak trees was measured at 11ft in diameter and had more than 2000 season growth rings. A historically based belief has Joseph of Arimathea following the row of trees towards the tor upon his arrival in Albion.

One thing I have learnt from Wikipedia is that there has been a concerted effort to destroy the Glastonbury Thorn and the Oaks of Albion, which has happened over many centuries.

https://mattbell.org/did-joseph-of-arim ... n-somerset

DOES Glastonbury Abbey hold the remains of one of the first Christian missionaries linked to the discipleship of Jesus and thereby proof of the country’s Judeo-Christian heritage?

This is one of the unsolved mysteries that lie behind a stain glass window in St John’s Church in the town’s High Street. There are images of Joseph of Arimathea, Aristobolos, St Colin (pronounced Coff-lin), a saint from Wales and King Arviragus.

According to the book Clouds of Witnesses; A Pilgrim’s Guide to the Holy Sites of Glastonbury and written by Orthodox priest Fr John Ives, St Colin (the Exorcist) lived as a hermit at the bottom of the Tor and the story goes he encountered the pagan god Gwyn, king of the Fairies at the Tor’s summit.

[Cruiserdude]

Woooooow I had never heard of this before about Joseph visiting there!

One of the ancient traditions is that Joseph of Arimathea also visited these islands. He is said to have stopped at Glastonbury, which is an area also associated with King Arthur (Glastonbury Tor is the top picture in this thread). In some versions of the story Joseph of Arimathea visited by himself and in others he took a young Jesus with him. These are not as outlandish as they first appear since there is some mainstream archaeological evidence of ancient contact between this area and the Middle East.

Glastonbury is in the county of Somerset in south west England. The Welsh know it as Gwlad yr Haf (the land of summer), possibly a reference to the River Severn nearby, known as Hafren in Welsh (Sabrina in Latin). Some sources relate the name to Somerton (Summertown), but I think it is more a case of Somerset, Somerton and the Severn all sharing a common root.

In the old days, the sea went right inland to Glastonbury itself and visitors would have been able to sail there. This is the reverse of what happened to the Isles of Scilly, where a much larger landmass has shrunken into a number of smaller islands.

If you have a few minutes to spare, this Coptic convert has written about connections between the old church and Egyptian Christian traditions. (The first few paragraphs are about Coptic Orthodoxy, but he talks about Egyptian graves in Ireland, and the connection of St. Patrick, St. Adamnan (St Columba's biographer), St. David of Wales etc with the Egyptian church... and the discovery of Egyptian bowls in Anglo-Saxon graves.

http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/coptic- ... sh-church/

We certainly know that from ancient times trading for tin took place from the Mediterranean to Britain. Indeed the legend that our Lord Jesus visited Britain with his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, is based on the well established fact that there was trade in tin across the Roman empire.

We have a documented example in the life of John the Merciful, the Greek Patriarch of Alexandria in the early seventh century. In the Life we find mentioned a sailor who turned to the Patriarch for help, and who was sent to Britain. This excerpt describes a miracle which took place, and also illustrates the trade connections between Egypt and Britain at this time, and in earlier centuries.

We know that some British people travelled to Egypt and prayed at the shrine of St Mina because they brought back the little pottery flasks filled with blessed oil which were sold there. These are found in many places in Europe, but also in the British Isles. We know that the shrine was especially popular between 500-640 AD. But after the Muslim invasion of Egypt international pilgrimage dried up.

Glastonbury had a supposed memento of Joseph's visit, a tree which grew near Glastonbury until recently. Wikipedia. Note also the references to Summer.

According to legend, Joseph of Arimathea visited Glastonbury with the Holy Grail and thrust his staff into Wearyall Hill, which then grew into the original thorn tree. Early writers do not connect Joseph to the arrival of Christianity in Britain, and the first literary source to place him in Britain appeared in the thirteenth century. The historicity of Joseph's presence in Glastonbury remains controversial, but the thorn is first mentioned in a pamphlet published by Richard Pynson in 1520 called Lyfe of Joseph of Armathie, which was almost certainly commissioned by Glastonbury Abbey. In this account, the miraculous winter-flowering Thorn is paired with an equally remarkable walnut tree that grew in the Abbey grounds and was said to flower on Midsummer's Day. Both were seen as marks of divine favour, proof that Glastonbury was 'the holyest erth of Englande'...The Thorn was chopped down by a zealous Parliamentary soldier, probably in 1647.

Some cuttings have been taken of the thorn tree, with varying success. Also in Glastonbury are two oaks, known as the Oaks of Albion or Gog and Magog (another Biblical allusion)

At the time of the 1906 felling of the avenue one of the oak trees was measured at 11ft in diameter and had more than 2000 season growth rings. A historically based belief has Joseph of Arimathea following the row of trees towards the tor upon his arrival in Albion.

One thing I have learnt from Wikipedia is that there has been a concerted effort to destroy the Glastonbury Thorn and the Oaks of Albion, which has happened over many centuries.

https://mattbell.org/did-joseph-of-arim ... n-somerset

DOES Glastonbury Abbey hold the remains of one of the first Christian missionaries linked to the discipleship of Jesus and thereby proof of the country’s Judeo-Christian heritage?

This is one of the unsolved mysteries that lie behind a stain glass window in St John’s Church in the town’s High Street. There are images of Joseph of Arimathea, Aristobolos, St Colin (pronounced Coff-lin), a saint from Wales and King Arviragus.

According to the book Clouds of Witnesses; A Pilgrim’s Guide to the Holy Sites of Glastonbury and written by Orthodox priest Fr John Ives, St Colin (the Exorcist) lived as a hermit at the bottom of the Tor and the story goes he encountered the pagan god Gwyn, king of the Fairies at the Tor’s summit.

[Cruiserdude]

These images and the ones the video are absolutely STUNNING! That mount st Michael place is jaw dropping!! And the one in the French alps!

origin-207.jpgIntro
Previously, I have talked a lot about Middle Eastern and some African works in this series about the Apocrypha/Pseudepigraph. Now for something from a lot further west.

For the purposes of this post, "Celtic" would include:
* Ireland, Wales, Brittany, Scotland (including the Lowlands), Isle of Man, Cornwall - these all retained a Celtic language and culture into modern history.
* England (especially the north and west... beyond Cornwall), much of France, north west Iberia (Portugal, Galicia, Asturias), the Channel Islands ‐ these areas didn't tend to retain the language but did retain some legends, and there are obvious Celtic place names in all of these places.

I have covered some of these ideas already in the thread I previously wrote about Scotland's Biblical connections.
viewtopic.php?t=65207

In this one I will try and go at it from a slightly different angle.

Summary
As with some of the other posts in this series like the one on Biblical legends in the Koran, this will be a work in progress. The Celtic regions converted to Christianity early on, certainly before Scandinavia, the Baltic countries and much of Russia. There is evidence of some ancient connections to the Middle East, instead of desert monasteries, the tendency was for their monks to go out into small remote islands such as Skellig Michael, Lindisfarne, Iona, Bardsey and so on.

* Origin legends. How Celtic peoples related to Biblical tradition.
* Flood myths. Most Celtic cultures have legends about inundation e.g. Lyonesse (Cornwall), Ys (Brittany), the lands off Cardigan Bay (Wales). The Irish also have legends about Noah.
* Legends about Jesus, Paul and others visiting. I used to think these were very far fetched, but it is worth remembering that the Romans conquered some of these territories in the early Christian period. It would have certainly been feasible for Paul to visit London.
* Arthurian Cycle & Holy Grail: most Arthurian legends are not about the Bible, but the Grail Quest is a major exception. The Grail also has later alleged connections to England's West Country and Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland.
* Lia Fail (also known as Stone of Scone, Coronation Stone, Jacob's Pillow etc)
* Pontius Pilate
* The tradition of the cross at Holyrood (near Scottish parliament)
* Gomer and Cymru (Wales)
* Miscellaneous Biblical legends.
* The Michael Line

I'll also throw in something about William Comyns Beaumont who had some curious ideas.

There are a surprising number in these regions, especially Celtic speaking areas which retained a long oral tradition. Some of these legends have not been written down or are little known. There are some which have probably been lost recently. But some are still in circulation. One of the users on here, "the Christian", is aware of these legends among Scottish travellers. A lot of the legends of the travelling peoples are badly recorded, and there are several branches of them which have almost been completely lost (there used to be sea travellers who plied the west coast, which are AFAIK now completely gone, with their culture.) Some were gypsies and some not.

The Travelling/Gypsy people of Great Britain have oral traditions that their forefather was Abraham thru Ishmael .....
Its said that the Travelling clans of Scotland were the first peoples to set foot in that land, that they once ruled it in the mists of time ..............

Pontius Pilate and Fortingall
The-famous-yew-tree-in-the-churchyard-of-the-village-of-Fortingall-in-highland-Perthshire-1200x854.jpg

One old Scottish legend states that Pontius Pilate was born in the village of Fortingall in Perthshire. The tradition is that he was born to a Roman soldier and a local woman, possibly a chieftain's daughter.

Fortingall is a pretty village. I have been there a number of times. It is most famous for its yew, which is thousands of years old.

Did Pilate come from here? I think not. There is better evidence he came from Seville in Spain. Fortingall would have been well outside the Roman zone at that time, further north than the Roman Empire ever came although they did launch expeditions into northern Scotland and fight battles there. There may have been an outpost at Perth itself (Bertha), but the most northerly limits were between the Forth-Clyde Isthmus along the Antonine Wall which is a good distance away. Even that was intermittent, with Hadrian's Wall (now south of the Scottish border) being the main boundary for most of the Roman Occupation.

Fortingall is in hill country. It would have been extremely remote and barbaric. It is possible Roman soldiers may have raped or even married local women, but unlikely that one their children would have ended up in a role like Pilate's.

One of the Perthshire water sprites is called Peallaidh (pronounced "Pelly"), and gives his name to the nearby Obar Pheallaidh or Aberfeldy. Is it possible that someone confused Peallaidh and Pilate? There is a similarity in the names. Perhaps Peallaidh was originally connected up with the yew and was a pagan deity there.

The Michael Line
There are two supposed Michael Lines, dedicated to the archangel. Some of those who believe in these think that they will play some kind of role in the Apocalypse with St. Michael destroying the dragon.

Here is the less significant one. It runs from Cornwall into East Anglia. By the looks of it, it probably ran into the Isles of Scilly once. (Scilly is the green dot in the bottom left of the screenshot. It used to be a much bigger landmass within the Bronze Age and even Roman times. It is now fragmented into many islands.) I'm sceptical of this one in a way, since churches dedicated to St. Michael are very common. However, Glastonbury Tor (top) is a significant point on it, as is Avebury Stone Circle. Glastonbury has associations with Jesus and Joseph of Arimathea, St. Michael and is now a mecca for mystics and music fans.
st michael ley line.png

Here is the other one, which is much cooler. It runs through some amazing locations. This video is worth watching for the locations alone, whether or not you subscribe to this idea. This greater line has been traced from Skellig Michael, off SW Ireland, through St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall, Mont St. Michel in Brittany through various continental churches and so on, into the Middle East. Many of these are dramatic places unlike most of the ones in the previous video. I know some have traced the line even further than this video and connected it to an Icelandic location and ones in the Arabic lands and Indian Ocean. (Under 8 minutes)

Jesus in Cornwall?
Short summary of some mostly Cornish legends, including the Pontiesu (sp?), which means in the Cornish language "Jesus' bridge." This area intersects with two of the Michael lines, mentioned above. (3 minutes approx.)

Since this is where a lot of tin was exported into the Middle East back to Ancient Egyptian times, perhaps this is the most likely place a Middle Eastern trader would land in the unlikely event that they would visit these islands to begin with.

[Niemand]

These images and the ones the video are absolutely STUNNING! That mount st Michael place is jaw dropping!! And the one in the French alps!

There is something about those places, especially the ones on the western section of the line, which are amazing looking places. I do get the feeling thst they have some kind of spiritual power and that the ancients recognised this. It is not just a matter of the buildings on them but the land beneath.

Switzerland seems to have become a focus of darkness (despite being a beautiful country) and maybe these places really will have some significance in future in regard to that, as the line runs under the south of Switzerland.

[TheChristian]

In our Island Kingdom, the early Christians nigh on always built their churchs apon pagan sacred gathering sites, this was a wise move so that the pagans had no were else to gather and worship and pagan converts to christianity would feel more at home in a christian place of worship built apon their forefathers sacred sites.

[Lynn]

I've been telling all of you, that you really need to get the book 'The Drama of the Lost Disciples' by George F. Joyett (1961/PB Reprint). I got a used copy in 2021 thru <ABE.com>. It has a Bibliography, Index & an Appendix. It chronicles Uncle Joseph of Arimathea who was also a tin magnate. And he got his tin in the UK. Jesus went with him once here while much younger. Joseph brought Mother Mary & several of the apostles here. Mother Mary died in the UK and is buried there. The UK fought the Romans many times. Joseph did not refer to Jesus teachings or those who believed as Christians, but as followers of "The Way" as taught by Jesus.

Rome even admitted that the UK had Christianity first.

I found out about this book due to not being able to find my original copy of Dolores Cannon's 'Jesus & the Essenes'. So I ordered another one via either <ABE.com> or <Alibris.com>. This copy was revised. It now had a Bibliography, Index, and an Addendum. It was published by Ozark Mountain Publishing. The original was published in the UK by Gateway Books. It was while Dolores was lecturing on her original book that several in the UK told her of things to check out as to legends in the UK about Jesus & Uncle Joseph. The Addendum was added in 2001 so that others could reference it. Dolores said it confirms what she had found. So if you get Dolores book, used or new, get the OMP edition (292 pp.)..

But you definitely need to get Joyett's very heavily researched book (260 pp.) already mentioned.. It is not an easy read, but is full of ancient quotes verifying it all.

[Lynn]

I forgot to add, there was the Celtic Druid prophecy of Yesu. See pp. 76-77 of Joyett's book., The wise men of Persia were not the only ones watching "The Star of Prophecy"..

And 3 Councils of the Roman Catholic Church confirmed that the British Church took precedence over all other churches, founded by Joseph of Arimathea, immediately after the Passion of Christ (on pp.78-79).

[Niemand]

The UK fought the Romans many times.

The UK didn't technically exist until 1707 AD. But... two parts of the modern day UK —

* Northern Ireland, since the Romans never took Ireland (a Roman fort has been found near Dublin, which is very controversial as some say it was just a trading post, but little evidence of them round Ulster way.
* Most of Scotland, certainly not the Highlands. The southern part of Scotland was under intermittent Roman control and had some client kingdoms, but the part above the Antonine Wall (near Falkirk) was never in the Roman Empire.

But the areas that later became England and Wales were in the Roman Empire. Yes, there is evidence of rebellion in those places. The most notable one would be Boadicea/Boudicca of the Iceni tribe. But on the other hand, many major settlements there were built as Roman towns (often bearing Celtic names) such as London (Londinium), York (Eboracum), Bath (Aquae Sulis), Dover, Chester, Cardiff, Carlisle, Exeter, Newcastle on Tyne (Pons Aelius) etc.

[Ymarsakar]

Switzerland Octagon is one of the HQs of the qabal, along with Vatican, London inside London, DC, and Kiev/Ukraine.

They will all have to be taken out sooner or later.

These power spots you notice are also akin to the Earth's dragon veins, meridians, and chakras. They have been occupied by satan's forces in order to keep the Earth from transitioning dimensions.

These images and the ones the video are absolutely STUNNING! That mount st Michael place is jaw dropping!! And the one in the French alps!

There is something about those places, especially the ones on the western section of the line, which are amazing looking places. I do get the feeling thst they have some kind of spiritual power and that the ancients recognised this. It is not just a matter of the buildings on them but the land beneath.

Switzerland seems to have become a focus of darkness (despite being a beautiful country) and maybe these places really will have some significance in future in regard to that, as the line runs under the south of Switzerland.

[TheChristian]

The best records concerning the first Christians in England are the early Christian Fathers. Niemand rightly brings out some of their writings concerning this both here and elsewere.
It is true that the early Celtic Christians of these isles resisted the Roman bishops influence and had the Gospel very early, some early christian fathers say around late ad 30s, also said celtic church sent their leading men to major christian councils that were held in the early christian chuchs around the Roman empire.
Also of importance was that said celtic churchs had reached the Americas according to ancient writings, could this be were the stories originated amongst the Indians of the White bearded Men whom arrived from the east in boats across the great sea to the shores of America and began preaching of a White God whom was slain by His own people, but such was His almighty power He arose from the dead, that said white bearded men preached peace, love, mercy and forgiveness in this White Gods name, to every Indian city, town and village they came amongst, performing signs, wonders and miracles, and when they departed in their boats to go back across the sea to their motherland, promised their indian converts they would return.
There are accounts amongst the traditions of the Mexican indians of such, the indians were also warned by the white bearded men of Black hooded white men in long black flowing robes that would come after they departed, that they were not to listen to them that they were bearing a false gospel.
Could this be the Celtic missionaries warning the Indian converts that if the Roman priests landed apon their shores, not to listen to their version of the gospel.

At the end of the day the Lords command was to take His Gospel to the very ends of the earth, the Celtic church that in the very earliest of years presided in Ireland, Scotland, England, was the Christian outpost perchance nearest to american shores

[Niemand]

Julius Caesar remarked that the Celts of 2000 years ago were good boat builders. The Romans were used to the Mediterranean. The Phoenicians and ancient Celts were venturing out across the Atlantic early on. To get to Ireland, or even Cornwall, you would have to cross open sea.

Culdees, who were the priests and monks of the old Celtic church, used to like being hermits in remote places. This appears to have come out of the Middle Eastern and Greek tradition of going to live in islands and desert mountains.

Anyway, it seems to have spurred exploration. It appears Iceland was discovered this way before the Vikings ever got there. Some of these churchmen island hopped from Scotland up to the north, possibly Greenland and Newfoundland and beyond. St. Brendan is the best known one. If you can sail from Scotland to Iceland and keep your boat in reasonable shape, you could probably make it to the Americas from Iceland.

A couple of Eskimos "discovered" Scotland in recorded history. Some people think this is where the legends of the selkies and fin folk came from.

http://www.strangehistory.net/2013/02/1 ... -aberdeen/

"A canoe, taken at sea with an Indian man in it, about the beginning of this century. He was brought alive to Aberdeen, but died soon after his arrival, and could give no account of himself. He is supposed to have come from the Labrador Coast, and to have lost his way at sea."

This happened in the 1720s and that he was from Greenland. Some folk say he paddled up the Don and died of exposure and exhaustion. A better stocked and built built Celtic boat could have done the same trip in reverse.

A lot more info here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... _northern/

[Lynn]

+++++++++++
The UK didn't technically exist until 1707 AD. But... two parts of the modern day UK —
+++++++++++
I was just using UK as a place identifier, not as actually inferring it was the UK of nowadays.

As to ...
++++++++++++++++++
* Northern Ireland, since the Romans never took Ireland (a Roman fort has been found near Dublin, which is very controversial as some say it was just a trading post, but little evidence of them round Ulster way.
* Most of Scotland, certainly not the Highlands. The southern part of Scotland was under intermittent Roman control and had some client kingdoms, but the part above the Antonine Wall (near Falkirk) was never in the Roman Empire.

But the areas that later became England and Wales were in the Roman Empire. Yes, there is evidence of rebellion in those places. The most notable one would be Boadicea/Boudicca of the Iceni tribe. But on the other hand, many major settlements there were built as Roman towns (often bearing Celtic names) such as London (Londinium), York (Eboracum), Bath (Aquae Sulis), Dover, Chester, Cardiff, Carlisle, Exeter, Newcastle on Tyne (Pons Aelius) etc.
++++++++++++++++++
You really need to get the book I spoke of. Rome came to fight the "<UK>" many times. They never were up against such an adversary. There was one war that they captured a higher up & took him to Rome, but instead of doing vile things to him like they normally did with other nations' leaders, this one was well respected and they sorta put him in a situation near as to "house arrest" for lack of another term to use. But wars between the two groups were fought for several hundred years. READ the book. The printing history of this book started with the first edition December 1961 at a 3000 initial print. My used copy is a 16th (USA) Edition November 2009 at a press run of 5000.

[Silver Pie]

subbing so I don't lose this thread

[Niemand]

Ireland, Scotland and the Stone of Destiny etc
Ireland is known as Innis Fáil (the Island of Fáil) in poetry and legend. One of Ireland's main political parties is known as Fianna Fáil to this day. The second word is often translated as "destiny", but it can also refer to Faileas, one of the legendary homelands of the Gael, or also to something which has been marked on incised.

The last meaning is significant when discussing the Lia Fail, which is Scotland's ancient coronation stone. In legend, this is often described as "Jacob's Pillow", because it is said to be the stone on which Jacob laid his head when he had his visionary dream. (Genesis 28) It is also said to have been a portable altar (common in the ancient church) of St. Columba (Calum/Colm Cille)

This name is often translated as the "Stone of Destiny" but as I said in the last paragraph, this translation does not give the full connotations of the word. Lia Fail can also be translated as "Stone of Faileas" or the "Stone of (Innis) Fail" (Ireland). If we translate it as "incised stone", then it certainly does not match the current stone that the British royal family crowns itself on, which is just a rough hewn piece of rock. Some ancient legends also describe it as being dark, or black, or even a meteorite, like the stone in the Kaaba in Mecca. This again does not sound like the British Coronation stone.


The British coronation stone – a fake?

When the English invaded Scotland under King Edward I, they stole the coronation stone and it has been used ever since. Or so they think. The stone they use is sandstone and matches the local geology of Scone (pronounced "skoon"), the place it was stolen from, just outside the city of Perth. Some have claimed facetiously that what the British royals have is a cistern or toilet cover instead of the incised stone. There are many Scots who say that the real Stone still exists in Scotland hidden away from the English. (If you want to read more on this story, read the Stone by Nigel Tranter. In his version, the stone was found again in the 20th century in a dove and an archaeological crew from south of the border popped up around the time they found it, and again it hae t).

Some have linked this stone to the three treasures brought from Faileas into Ireland, which are a cauldron (coire Dagda or kettle of the Dagda), a stone (Lia Fail) and a lance/spear (claidheamh solais or sword of light + sleagh buaidh or lance of victory) The cauldron appears to have morphed into the Holy Grail, the stone into the Lia Fail and the lance is sometimes linked to that which pierced the side of Christ, or Excalibur the sword of King Arthur etc. They also have links to the Dagda (the ruler of the Gaelic gods) and to Lugh (god of Light).

Another stone known as the Lia Fail in Ireland on the Hill of Tara (pictured). It is more of a pillar.


The stone also has links to the Blarney Stone, with some joking that the stones have been swapped around. Some legends say the stone sang when the true king sat on it.

10 And Jacob went out from Beer-sheba, and went toward Haran. 11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. 12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14 and thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. 16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Beth-el: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. 20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21 so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: 22 and this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Bethel means "house of the Lord". The name "Luz" also appears in the poems of William Blake and elsewhere. Note also the vague similarity of the name to Lug(h) or Lug. Verses 14 and 15 of the chapter are of interest if we are talking of a diaspora and the stone possibly being brough to the west.

Wikipedia quotes the following letter, from the Morning Chronicle, dated 2 January 1819. I hadn't seen this before, but it does match the legendary description that I have heard. However, it contradicts Nigel Tranter's account.

On the 19th of November, as the servants belonging to the West Mains [Chief Farm] of Dunsinane-house, [near Perth, Scotland] were employed in carrying away stones from the excavation made among the ruins that point out the site of Macbeth's castle here, part of the ground they stood on suddenly gave way, and sank down about six feet, discovering a regularly built vault, about six feet long and four wide. None of the men being injured, curiosity induced them to clear out the subterranean recess, when they discovered among the ruins a large stone, weighing about 500 lb [230 kg], which is pronounced to be of the meteoric or semi-metallic kind. This stone must have lain here during the long series of ages since Macbeth's reign. Beside it were also found two round tablets, of a composition resembling bronze. On one of these two lines are engraved, which a gentleman has thus deciphered. — 'The sconce (or shadow) of kingdom come, until Sylphs in air carry me again to Bethel.' These plates exhibit the figures of targets for the arms. From time immemorial it has been believed among us here, that unseen hands brought Jacob's pillow from Bethel and dropped it on the site where the palace of Scoon now stands. A strong belief is also entertained by many in this part of the country that it was only a representation of this Jacob's pillow that Edward sent to Westminster, the sacred stone not having been found by him. The curious here, aware of such traditions, and who have viewed these venerable remains of antiquity, agree that Macbeth may, or rather must, have deposited the stone in question at the bottom of his Castle, on the hill of Dunsinane (from the trouble of of Dunsinane (from the trouble of the times), where it has been found by the workmen. This curious stone has been shipped for London for the inspection of the scientific amateur, in order to discover its real quality.

The following lines, supposedly on that particular stone are of interest:

The sconce (or shadow) of kingdom come, until Sylphs in air carry me again to Bethel.

The pun here only really works in Gaelic. The Gaelic for the place called Scone is Sgàin, and the Gaelic for shadow is sgàth. However, another old poetic word for shadow in Gaelic is Faileas, linking back to the legend above. The Gaelic for mirror is sgathan which is pronounced "skahan", also a possible pun and might tie into the stone being reflective.

It looks like this stone (if it existed) was taken to England like the official one. A fate which may have awaited Nigel Tranter's stone too.

More on the Irish one.
According to one version of Gaelic Myth surrounding the Lia Fáil stone, a myth more associated with the Stone of Scone, the sacred stone arrived by ship belonging to the [Tuatha de] Danaan into the ancient port of Carrickfergus [North East Ireland] about 580 BC. On board was Eochaidh, son of a High King and a descendant of Érimón, Princess Tea Tephi and the scribe Simon Brauch. Princess Tea also had in her possession an ancient harp, whose origins some believe lie in the House of David. The stone was delivered to the Hill of Tara by the three. [The Egyptian princess] Scota later married High King Eochaidh, both had previously met each other in Jerusalem. Eochaidh recovered the ancient stone in Jerusalem before the invasion of the Babylonians. It is said all future Irish High Kings/British Monarchs inaugurated by the stone have tried to prove lineage back to the Royal Sage and his wife, Tea Tephi, the original bearers of the stone. Eochaidh's resting place is said to be in the Neolithic passage tomb, Cairn T at Loughcrew [Ireland].

There are a number of other copies, replicas (or real ones?) of the Lia Fail around.

[Niemand]

Two curious figures connected to the Bible, Féinius Farsa and Ollamh Fodla.

Féinius Farsa
Fénius Farsaid (also Phoeniusa, Phenius, Féinius; Farsa, Farsaidh, many variant spellings) is a legendary king of Scythia who appears in different versions of Irish mythology. He was the son of Boath, a son of Magog. Other sources describe his lineage from the line of Gomer. According to some traditions, he invented the Ogham alphabet and the Gaelic language.

According to recensions M and A of the Lebor Gabála Érenn, Fénius and his son Nél journeyed to the Tower of Babel (in recension B, it is Rifath Scot son of Gomer instead). Nél, who was trained in many languages, married Scota, daughter of Pharaoh Cingris of Egypt, producing their son Goidel Glas. [also known as Gaidheal Glas]

In the Lebor Gabála Érenn ([Book of Settlements] 11th century), he is said to be one of the 72 chieftains who built Nimrod's Tower of Babel, but travelled to Scythia after the tower collapsed.

According to the Auraicept na n-Éces, Fenius journeyed from Scythia together with Goídel mac Ethéoir, Íar mac Nema and a retinue of 72 scholars. They came to the plain of Shinar to study the confused languages at Nimrod's tower. Finding that the speakers had already dispersed, Fenius sent his scholars to study them, staying at the tower, coordinating the effort. After ten years, the investigations were complete, and Fenius created in Bérla tóbaide "the selected language", taking the best of each of the confused tongues, which he called Goídelc, Goidelic [Gaelic], after Goídel mac Ethéoir. He also created extensions, called Bérla Féne, [Fenius' language] after himself, Íarmberla, after Íar mac Nema, and others, and the Beithe-luis-nuin (the Ogham [alphabet]) as a perfected writing system for his languages, Béarla na bhFileadh - 'language of the poets'. The Secret Language of the Poets, Gnaith-bhearla, a common language and dialect of the illiterate majority, it later became Old and Middle Irish, and eventually Modern Irish.

The Auraicept claims that Fenius Farsaidh discovered four alphabets, the Hebrew, Greek and Latin ones, and finally the Ogham, and portrays the Ogham as the most perfected because it was discovered last.



The older legends are that Og(h)am is named after Ogma (or Ogmios), the Celtic god of writing. There is some similarity between him and Mercury/Hermes in the classical canon and Wotan/Odin in the Germanic one.

Ollamh Fodla and Jeremiah in Ireland?
Ollamh Fodla, literally the Wise One of Ireland, is another strange figure. Some Israelitists have attempted to link him to Jeremiah the prophet, but this doesn't appear to an ancient tradition. There are at least two graves claimed to be Ollamh Fodla's with one being on Devenish, an island on one of the loughs in County Fermanagh.

There is also a figure Simon Brecc or Simon Breac (speckled Simon) who is sometimes linked with Baruch.

“Irish historians are unanimous that about 580 B.C. there arrived in Ulster a notable man [Jeremiah], a patriarch or saint, accompanied by an Eastern princess, and a lesser person by the name of Simon Brach or Barech” Haberman, Frederick. Tracing Our Ancestors. Burnaby, B.C., Canada: The Association of The Covenant People, 1934, p. 153.

https://www.originofnations.org/books,% ... reland.htm

[Silver Pie]

Speckled Simon. I wonder if that means he had freckles.

[Niemand]

Speckled Simon. I wonder if that means he had freckles.

Breac is used to mean that in modern Gaelic.