Specific Temple Changes -- Can they be justified?

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Specific Temple Changes -- Can they be justified?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

TheDuke wrote: May 26th, 2023, 8:54 pm As i said before i don’t think any of the words or teachings matter much just the sealing ordinances themselves
Then why call it a house of learning, if the teachings don’t matter?

I think once we view our mere participation in the symbolic rites of the endowment and sealing ceremonies as the proof we’ve received the literal power of heaven, we may be missing the mark and have probably received our reward.

If walking through the veil of the temple is not the same thing as piercing the actual veil, and beholding the Lord while in the flesh (I mean, Elohim, *cough*), then what does that tell us about the nature of the building we’re in?

Perhaps it was always meant to be what the Lord originally revealed it to be early on in Kirtland — an academy of sorts for learning how to realize those promises that come through the gospel covenant.
Last edited by Dusty Wanderer on June 6th, 2023, 7:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Serragon
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Re: Specific Temple Changes -- Can they be justified?

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ransomme wrote: May 27th, 2023, 3:07 am
Serragon wrote: May 26th, 2023, 3:47 pm
ransomme wrote: May 26th, 2023, 3:38 pm #1 is accurate, she was created from Adam's tsela (side, not rib). Eve is an equal of and to Adam, and they should cleave to one another and become one again.
Agreed that they should cleave to one another and become one again. Not sure what is meant by the term "equal of and to Adam", as equality only exists in relationship to specific things. They perfectly complement each other, but are likely unequal in almost every measurable characteristic.

But my issue is not with whether people agree with the changes or not, but whether they can be justified. Being helpmeets for one another appears to be in contradiction with both Genesis and Moses. This portion of the temple endowment was in harmony with scripture since its inception, but has now been altered in 2023 to contradict scripture. Or am I missing something?
Symmetry neither means nor is it a good measure of equality.

How is it contradicting scripture?
It's used 8 times in our scriptures. Is your objection that "help meet" doesn't mean equal?
My issue is not with the word(s) helpmeet, though helpmeet does not mean equal. Adam and Eve are complementary, not equal. Together, they make a perfect whole, but their portions of that whole are not equal anymore than we become equal to God when we become one with Him.

My issue is that we now are teaching that Adam and Eve were created as helpmeets for each other while the books of Genesis and Moses teach that Eve was created as a helpmeet for Adam, not the other way around.

Johnny already showed me how my second contention can be justified via scripture (which I greatly appreciate!). Can the first be likewise justified? As of yet, I have not seen that it can.

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ransomme
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Re: Specific Temple Changes -- Can they be justified?

Post by ransomme »

Serragon wrote: June 6th, 2023, 4:10 pm
ransomme wrote: May 27th, 2023, 3:07 am
Serragon wrote: May 26th, 2023, 3:47 pm

Agreed that they should cleave to one another and become one again. Not sure what is meant by the term "equal of and to Adam", as equality only exists in relationship to specific things. They perfectly complement each other, but are likely unequal in almost every measurable characteristic.

But my issue is not with whether people agree with the changes or not, but whether they can be justified. Being helpmeets for one another appears to be in contradiction with both Genesis and Moses. This portion of the temple endowment was in harmony with scripture since its inception, but has now been altered in 2023 to contradict scripture. Or am I missing something?
Symmetry neither means nor is it a good measure of equality.

How is it contradicting scripture?
It's used 8 times in our scriptures. Is your objection that "help meet" doesn't mean equal?
My issue is not with the word(s) helpmeet, though helpmeet does not mean equal. Adam and Eve are complementary, not equal. Together, they make a perfect whole, but their portions of that whole are not equal anymore than we become equal to God when we become one with Him.

My issue is that we now are teaching that Adam and Eve were created as helpmeets for each other while the books of Genesis and Moses teach that Eve was created as a helpmeet for Adam, not the other way around.

Johnny already showed me how my second contention can be justified via scripture (which I greatly appreciate!). Can the first be likewise justified? As of yet, I have not seen that it can.
Eve is not simply complementary. And was not an after thought. Man was created with woman already in mind.

Genesis 5
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.


And if they aren't equal, then you're proposing that they unequally yoked.

Do you think that polygamy is legit?

Serragon
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Posts: 3444

Re: Specific Temple Changes -- Can they be justified?

Post by Serragon »

ransomme wrote: June 6th, 2023, 5:36 pm
Serragon wrote: June 6th, 2023, 4:10 pm
ransomme wrote: May 27th, 2023, 3:07 am

Symmetry neither means nor is it a good measure of equality.

How is it contradicting scripture?
It's used 8 times in our scriptures. Is your objection that "help meet" doesn't mean equal?
My issue is not with the word(s) helpmeet, though helpmeet does not mean equal. Adam and Eve are complementary, not equal. Together, they make a perfect whole, but their portions of that whole are not equal anymore than we become equal to God when we become one with Him.

My issue is that we now are teaching that Adam and Eve were created as helpmeets for each other while the books of Genesis and Moses teach that Eve was created as a helpmeet for Adam, not the other way around.

Johnny already showed me how my second contention can be justified via scripture (which I greatly appreciate!). Can the first be likewise justified? As of yet, I have not seen that it can.
Eve is not simply complementary. And was not an after thought. Man was created with woman already in mind.

Genesis 5
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.


And if they aren't equal, then you're proposing that they unequally yoked.

Do you think that polygamy is legit?
Not sure why you are asking about polygamy, but no, i do not believe it to be of God and don't believe Joseph ever practiced or taught it.

I appreciate the scripture reference, but it seems to me that you are reading into that scripture more than what is there. In addition, it ignores the fact that Eve specifically was created after the fact according to the first few books of scripture.

I respect your opinions and ideas very much and acknowledge that your interpretation may be correct, but from what I can see it doesn't seem to track with scripture in its totality.

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IsaiahVision
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Re: Specific Temple Changes -- Can they be justified?

Post by IsaiahVision »

The Hebrew word seem to be correct for help meet:

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ransomme
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Re: Specific Temple Changes -- Can they be justified?

Post by ransomme »

Serragon wrote: June 6th, 2023, 5:46 pm
ransomme wrote: June 6th, 2023, 5:36 pm
Serragon wrote: June 6th, 2023, 4:10 pm

My issue is not with the word(s) helpmeet, though helpmeet does not mean equal. Adam and Eve are complementary, not equal. Together, they make a perfect whole, but their portions of that whole are not equal anymore than we become equal to God when we become one with Him.

My issue is that we now are teaching that Adam and Eve were created as helpmeets for each other while the books of Genesis and Moses teach that Eve was created as a helpmeet for Adam, not the other way around.

Johnny already showed me how my second contention can be justified via scripture (which I greatly appreciate!). Can the first be likewise justified? As of yet, I have not seen that it can.
Eve is not simply complementary. And was not an after thought. Man was created with woman already in mind.

Genesis 5
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.


And if they aren't equal, then you're proposing that they unequally yoked.

Do you think that polygamy is legit?
Not sure why you are asking about polygamy, but no, i do not believe it to be of God and don't believe Joseph ever practiced or taught it.

I appreciate the scripture reference, but it seems to me that you are reading into that scripture more than what is there. In addition, it ignores the fact that Eve specifically was created after the fact according to the first few books of scripture.

I respect your opinions and ideas very much and acknowledge that your interpretation may be correct, but from what I can see it doesn't seem to track with scripture in its totality.
I asked about polygamy because it often seems like pro polygamists place a lower value on women. It's kind of inherent when a 1:56 ratio or more, is perfectly fine.

Why would we suppose that women are not equal? And in what ways do you suppose that they are not equal?

Personally, I think that there is more symbolism and a greater pattern in this IMO. Man and woman are to become a type of Zion. In Zion there are no rich or poor, there is oneness, there is equality.

Do Jesus'words imply anything? They were created in the beginning with design and intent, made male and female.

Matthew 19
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

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