pre-millennialism vs. post-millennialism

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markharr
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pre-millennialism vs. post-millennialism

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I wanted to get other thoughts on this. I tend to see a lot of post-millennialism creeping in from the leftist members of the church. This attitude that Christ will not return until there is no hate, judgement or anger on the earth and the only way to get rid of that is to not question anything that anyone does up to and including sexualizing children.



I am not 100% pre-millennialist but I am much closer to that than post-millennialist.

I believe that Christ expects us to do as much as we can to solve our own problems but he will return and cleanse the earth when it gets to the point that we can no longer clean it up ourselves and that new spirits being sent to the earth have virtually no chance.


This is Youtube transcription. I did my best to clean it up.
There are two different types of approaches to the second coming uh that are that are played out in Christianity today one is called premillennialism and the other is called post-millennialism and the millennialism is the easy part in terms of okay we believe in this Millennium this thousand years of Peace the pre and post has to do with when will Jesus come.

in relation to the Millennium and pre-millennialists believe that Jesus will come at the beginning of the
Millennium to Usher it in and post-millennialists believe that Christ will come at the end of the Millennium
kind of as the cherry on top the to receive the gift that we have given him.

in terms of the millennium you can kind of cut pre versus post along religious lines and even kind of political lines if there are conservative and more Progressive or liberal factions within a denomination or between enominations themselves the more conservative tend to be pre-millennialists and pre-millennialism beyond our ability to fix it so hasten the day Lord and please come to clean up our messes come to bind Satan come to cleanse the Earth and and Usher in this Millennial reign of peace that's the pre-millennialist the post-millennialists tend to be more liberal Progressive they tend to be more optimistic in terms of oh Humanity's ability to to live into the to the Divine expectation. They have more optimism at Humanity's ability to to create a millennium among many post-millennialists it's this idea of we will achieve peace on Earth, social justice, Kumbaya, and when we have established Zion when the earth is fully prepared and the spirit of Christ has reigned upon this planet for the last thousand years then Jesus can come.

in fact if you're really on the extreme of the the liberal Progressive to the point that the miraculous and divine are hard for you to wrap your head around or your heart around that there's a certain belief that the that there is no literal second coming that's not us by the way we believe in the literal the literal second coming of a bodily resurrected Jesus Christ let me make that clear from the start but among Mainline protestantism for example there's frequently this belief that we will pull off the millennium. that the that once we have achieved social justice once that we once we have achieved peace on Earth it's as if the spirit of Jesus Christ has returned to the Earth that's the second coming as far as they are concerned.

Like I said we don't believe in in figurative figurativeizing is that a word we believe in the literal second coming of Jesus Christ but it is fascinating to think what role do we play in preparing the Earth for that coming if you were to ask Latter Day Saint are you a pre-millennialist or a post-millennial millennialist it's a great question. When it comes to literal chronology we're pre-millennialists. We do believe that Jesus Christ will come at the beginning to usher in the millennial reign but, when it comes to the optimism or pessimism when it comes to the how much do we just have to trust for Jesus to come and fix things versus how much do we have to do to try to fix things ourselves.

Can you sense a contrary coming on the the proving of contraries? We're both in terms I mean Zion must be built that's a post-millennialist kind of sentiment but Zion will be brought from above that's more of a premillennialist feel that Christ will will bind Satan yes that's that's premillennialism but that we will live in such a way that Satan has no power over the hearts of the children of men that's more of a post-millennial optimism. so I'm I'm there are so many places where the restored gospel proves contraries beautifully and when it comes to our view of the Millennium and the second coming it's one of my favorite examples of proven contrary and so let's try to strike the proper
balance.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: pre-millennialism vs. post-millennialism

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Hot take: I'm going with a hard pre-millennialism approach. He's coming with his armies. With his angels. He's front and center when the sky opens up, and the legions and armies of heaven walk behind and to the side of him as they burn Babylon and prepare the world for Christ's Millennial reign. Perhaps after that initial moment he makes his appearances more scarce, but I'm going to say when we hit that moment, that moment it's clear that the other side of the veil is breaking into what we consider reality, Christ is there and this is before evil has been wiped away. He's there to wage his justified war against evil with his justified anger and wrath. Moses, the forerunner, faced Egypt/Pharaoh, Christ will come head to head with the Whore of Babylon and her fallen prince.

Image



Christ taught a group of people who then used that knowledge to create something close to Zion and close to what you could consider being akin to Christ's Millennial Reign kingdom but the people (the Nephites) couldn't hold it together. What they did build, as beautiful as it was before it fell, came from the knowledge they had been given from Christ. I don't agree with the notion that we will build Christ's Millennial kingdom by reaching a stage of enlightenment before he comes and give it to him, or present it to him at the end of that Millennial time. I believe it needs to be built under his direction.

markharr wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 1:40 pm I believe that Christ expects us to do as much as we can to solve our own problems but he will return and cleanse the earth when it gets to the point that we can no longer clean it up ourselves and that new spirits being sent to the earth have virtually no chance.
I feel if you're being born into the United States (I'm not saying you aren't blessed with exceeding comfort with enough to get by week by week) you're kind of reaching this point; crippling national debt, loss of trust in institutions, sexual identity trends, tech addiction, decline of social capital, mental health crisis, the looming issue of the boomer generation reaching late-life stage and the healthcare needs they face, a large portion of Millennials and Gen Z "opting out" of the work force (becoming very anti-work), the rise of the single lonely man and woman. Doesn't really look good. But I don't want to side track the MAIN point of this thread (pre vs post millennialism)

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markharr
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Re: pre-millennialism vs. post-millennialism

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BuriedTartaria wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 1:32 am Hot take: I'm going with a hard pre-millennialism approach. He's coming with his armies. With his angels. He's front and center when the sky opens up, and the legions and armies of heaven walk behind and to the side of him as they burn Babylon and prepare the world for Christ's Millennial reign. Perhaps after that initial moment he makes his appearances more scarce, but I'm going to say when we hit that moment, that moment it's clear that the other side of the veil is breaking into what we consider reality, Christ is there and this is before evil has been wiped away. He's there to wage his justified war against evil with his justified anger and wrath. Moses, the forerunner, faced Egypt/Pharaoh, Christ will come head to head with the Whore of Babylon and her fallen prince.

Image
Chronologically, yes it cannot be disputed that Christ ushers in the millennium. New Jerusalem has to be at least partially built and there has to be a people righteous enough to receive Christ first. That is why I am not 100% pre millennial but I am 98% there.
BuriedTartaria wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 1:32 am
Christ taught a group of people who then used that knowledge to create something close to Zion and close to what you could consider being akin to Christ's Millennial Reign kingdom but the people (the Nephites) couldn't hold it together. What they did build, as beautiful as it was before it fell, came from the knowledge they had been given from Christ. I don't agree with the notion that we will build Christ's Millennial kingdom by reaching a stage of enlightenment before he comes and give it to him, or present it to him at the end of that Millennial time. I believe it needs to be built under his direction
The second coming is not a single appearance. One of the appearances is at Adam-ondi-Ahman to the prophets of all dispensations and a people righteous enough to receive him. I believe you are correct. Zion will be built under his direction but there must be a people righteous enough to receive him at Adam-ondi-Ahman, first.
BuriedTartaria wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 1:32 am
I feel if you're being born into the United States (I'm not saying you aren't blessed with exceeding comfort with enough to get by week by week) you're kind of reaching this point; crippling national debt, loss of trust in institutions, sexual identity trends, tech addiction, decline of social capital, mental health crisis, the looming issue of the boomer generation reaching late-life stage and the healthcare needs they face, a large portion of Millennials and Gen Z "opting out" of the work force (becoming very anti-work), the rise of the single lonely man and woman. Doesn't really look good. But I don't want to side track the MAIN point of this thread (pre vs post millennialism)
I am and I am not going to debate you on this because you are correct.

What you are referring to was created by wicked gentiles and they will be driven out of the land by the remnant because they rejected the Gospel. The law of the harvest will catch up to them. Wicked people cannot occupy this land for long.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: pre-millennialism vs. post-millennialism

Post by Wolfwoman »

What kind of dream world are people living in if they think the whole world can achieve peace prior to the second coming? I mean, take a look around! It may be possible, even necessary, for a family or a group of people to life peacefully with each other before the second coming. But the whole world? That’s not going to happen. Unless a whole bunch of people are killed off. And that’s not exactly peaceful…

moving2zion
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Re: pre-millennialism vs. post-millennialism

Post by moving2zion »

I think a strong attitude along these lines existed among the Jews at the time of Christ's first coming. Lucifer new that if he could pacify some, their teachings would lead others to sleep which would result in many not recognizing Christ when he came. So many leaders in Israel at that time taught that their promised Saviour would not come while there was so much wickedness among the general populace. They missed the whole point that he was coming to save them from their sins and ignorance not in their sins. Satan is using a tried and true method to divide and concur. It has worked for him before and he's using it again. If enough people can join his go along to get along movement, they will be asleep when they should be alert and preparing.

blitzinstripes
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Re: pre-millennialism vs. post-millennialism

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As in the days of Noah....He doesn't visit us when we are righteous enough. He visits us with destruction due to the extent of our wickedness. Anyone who believes in post millennialism does not believe the scriptures, which are quite plain in this regard. More new age nonsense.

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markharr
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Re: pre-millennialism vs. post-millennialism

Post by markharr »

blitzinstripes wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 11:34 am As in the days of Noah....He doesn't visit us when we are righteous enough. He visits us with destruction due to the extent of our wickedness. Anyone who believes in post millennialism does not believe the scriptures, which are quite plain in this regard. More new age nonsense.
The second coming isn't a single appearance of Christ.

There are at least two appearances before then with an unknown period of time between them. In this regard it is different than the days of Noah.

There is the appearance at
Adam-ondi-Ahman to every prophet of all dispensations and a righteous remnant.

There is the appearance at the Mt. Of Olives that concludes the battle of Armageddon.

There is the appearance where he before the entire world in full glory.

I might be missing additional appearances. Others can jump in.

There has to be a people righteous enough to receive him at Adam-ondi-Ahman. The righteous remnant and likely other righteous peoples.

It could be decades between then and Mt. Of Olives and decades more between that time and his appearance in full glory,

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