New "modular" temples

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Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

If you remove all the masonic elements from the temple endowment, you're left with the same things you would find in a Sunday School lesson about the creation of the world.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: May 18th, 2023, 12:08 pm If you remove all the masonic elements from the temple endowment, you're left with the same things you would find in a Sunday School lesson about the creation of the world.
I think I’ve had more in-depth SS lessons at church than at the temple. At least at church you can talk about doctrine and principles.

Serragon
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Re: New "modular" temples

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 18th, 2023, 1:19 pm
Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: May 18th, 2023, 12:08 pm If you remove all the masonic elements from the temple endowment, you're left with the same things you would find in a Sunday School lesson about the creation of the world.
I think I’ve had more in-depth SS lessons at church than at the temple. At least at church you can talk about doctrine and principles.
We used to go monthly with other members of our EQ in the mornings and get breakfast afterwards and talk about the endowment. It was great. But we alwasy lamented that we couldn't actually discuss things in the temple itself.

With the changes over the last 5 years or so, I feel like even doing what we used to do is much more difficult. The endowment session was a 400 level course and has now been reduced to a 100 level course where the few symbols that remain are now defined for you and where the added "doctrine" is stuff you would hear in primary.

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Original_Intent
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Original_Intent »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 18th, 2023, 1:19 pm
Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: May 18th, 2023, 12:08 pm If you remove all the masonic elements from the temple endowment, you're left with the same things you would find in a Sunday School lesson about the creation of the world.
I think I’ve had more in-depth SS lessons at church than at the temple. At least at church you can talk about doctrine and principles.
I've wondered what happened to the school of the prophets. It seems like a good concept, perhaps the general membership were not worthy.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Serragon wrote: May 18th, 2023, 2:09 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 18th, 2023, 1:19 pm
Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: May 18th, 2023, 12:08 pm If you remove all the masonic elements from the temple endowment, you're left with the same things you would find in a Sunday School lesson about the creation of the world.
I think I’ve had more in-depth SS lessons at church than at the temple. At least at church you can talk about doctrine and principles.
We used to go monthly with other members of our EQ in the mornings and get breakfast afterwards and talk about the endowment. It was great. But we alwasy lamented that we couldn't actually discuss things in the temple itself.

With the changes over the last 5 years or so, I feel like even doing what we used to do is much more difficult. The endowment session was a 400 level course and has now been reduced to a 100 level course where the few symbols that remain are now defined for you and where the added "doctrine" is stuff you would hear in primary.
I asked my bishop a few questions while in the Celestial room several years ago. He said that previously he had chosen to discuss certain things with people, but had been told recently not to talk about the endowment. So that was it, no discussion. It is no longer a house of learning.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Original_Intent wrote: May 18th, 2023, 2:32 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 18th, 2023, 1:19 pm
Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: May 18th, 2023, 12:08 pm If you remove all the masonic elements from the temple endowment, you're left with the same things you would find in a Sunday School lesson about the creation of the world.
I think I’ve had more in-depth SS lessons at church than at the temple. At least at church you can talk about doctrine and principles.
I've wondered what happened to the school of the prophets. It seems like a good concept, perhaps the general membership were not worthy.
I haven't really studied that topic much, just the occasional mention as noted in church manuals.

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Lineman1012
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Re: New "modular" temples

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 18th, 2023, 12:04 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: May 18th, 2023, 11:59 am How do you have no poor among you when some of them want to remain poor? I have no idea.
Laziness and idolatry are not Zion-like attributes. Hence they will not be part of Zion. I think there's this idea that *everyone* will be part of Zion, that is not true.
"Laziness and idolatry are not Zion-like attributes". You're right, these people will be lining the streets heading into ZION with signs that say, " God Bless anything will help", giving all who are entering one more opportunity to shed their last remaining bits and pieces of Babylon before going in. So they (laziness and idolatry) do have their usefulness, to help cleanse the pure in heart.

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

The Kirkland temple is a reflection of what Joseph Smith knew about the ancient temple of Solomon from the Old Testament. Exclusively washings and anointings. Each phrase of the anointing is actually taken from an Old Testament passage associated with it.

The nauvoo temple and all temples since are a reflection of Joseph Smiths induction into masonry in 1842. Seven weeks later he introduced the endowment with all the rites and symbols of masonry including the same secret death oaths and the same clothing.

The modern temple appears to be a reflection of theological ideas that Joseph Smith decided would be good additions. In 1842 it was believed that masonry held the secrets from Solomon’s temple and Joseph was likely intrigued by the possibility of adding that to his restoration theology.

However today we known that masonry was a 15th century stone cutters guild turned into a secret fraternal organization: Sadly what Joseph smith claimed as a restoration of ancient rites were actually a plagiarism of the stone mason guilds of the 15th century.

There are a number of quotes from Joseph
Smith and other church leaders explicitly claiming the the temple was the restoration of Solomon’s temple. The Jews are very good at preserving ancient rites. However zero parts of the LDS endowment can be found anywhere in Judaism or the Old Testament.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: May 18th, 2023, 3:18 pm The Kirkland temple is a reflection of what Joseph Smith knew about the ancient temple of Solomon from the Old Testament. Exclusively washings and anointings. Each phrase of the anointing is actually taken from an Old Testament passage associated with it.

The nauvoo temple and all temples since are a reflection of Joseph Smiths induction into masonry in 1842. Seven weeks later he introduced the endowment with all the rites and symbols of masonry including the same secret death oaths and the same clothing.

The modern temple appears to be a reflection of theological ideas that Joseph Smith decided would be good additions. In 1842 it was believed that masonry held the secrets from Solomon’s temple and Joseph was likely intrigued by the possibility of adding that to his restoration theology.

However today we known that masonry was a 15th century stone cutters guild turned into a secret fraternal organization: Sadly what Joseph smith claimed as a restoration of ancient rites were actually a plagiarism of the stone mason guilds of the 15th century.

There are a number of quotes from Joseph
Smith and other church leaders explicitly claiming the the temple was the restoration of Solomon’s temple. The Jews are very good at preserving ancient rites. However zero parts of the LDS endowment can be found anywhere in Judaism or the Old Testament.
I think BY added the masonic elements.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Wolfwoman »

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: May 18th, 2023, 3:18 pm The Kirkland temple is a reflection of what Joseph Smith knew about the ancient temple of Solomon from the Old Testament. Exclusively washings and anointings. Each phrase of the anointing is actually taken from an Old Testament passage associated with it.

The nauvoo temple and all temples since are a reflection of Joseph Smiths induction into masonry in 1842. Seven weeks later he introduced the endowment with all the rites and symbols of masonry including the same secret death oaths and the same clothing.

The modern temple appears to be a reflection of theological ideas that Joseph Smith decided would be good additions. In 1842 it was believed that masonry held the secrets from Solomon’s temple and Joseph was likely intrigued by the possibility of adding that to his restoration theology.

However today we known that masonry was a 15th century stone cutters guild turned into a secret fraternal organization: Sadly what Joseph smith claimed as a restoration of ancient rites were actually a plagiarism of the stone mason guilds of the 15th century.

There are a number of quotes from Joseph
Smith and other church leaders explicitly claiming the the temple was the restoration of Solomon’s temple. The Jews are very good at preserving ancient rites. However zero parts of the LDS endowment can be found anywhere in Judaism or the Old Testament.
Joseph was killed before the Nauvoo temple was completed. So we don’t have the ordinances that he would have instituted if there had actually been a temple built and accepted of the Lord. We know about baptisms for the dead of course. And the washings and anointings. Joseph Smith also said that some of the animal sacrifices would be restored too. Which I admit is hard for me to wrap my head around. But he apparently did say it.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Wolfwoman wrote: May 18th, 2023, 3:34 pm Joseph Smith also said that some of the animal sacrifices would be restored too. Which I admit is hard for me to wrap my head around. But he apparently did say it.
I've read his interpretation of this, I don't really agree with it. In the Nemenhah Record, it states that the offering that will be returned is giving up the Babylonian way of life. A true sacrifice from a humble and contrite heart.

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

Have you seen this discussion? I would be interested in your analysis:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k91MH90lomc

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

Didn’t Jesus essentially announce the end of temple worship to the woman at the well in John 4:19-26

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Ymarsakar
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Ymarsakar »

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: May 18th, 2023, 3:52 pm Didn’t Jesus essentially announce the end of temple worship to the woman at the well in John 4:19-26
The Almighty dollar overruled that

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 18th, 2023, 12:04 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: May 18th, 2023, 11:59 am How do you have no poor among you when some of them want to remain poor? I have no idea.
Laziness and idolatry are not Zion-like attributes. Hence they will not be part of Zion. I think there's this idea that *everyone* will be part of Zion, that is not true.
I see it this way, too, RW. We opt in through our discipleship, that is to say, discipline and action according to God’s word. Those that are poor of materials, but filled with diligence, will be bootstrapped by the covenant-keeping Zion people, and continue on with the same gusto, but in their elevated station. Self-maintaining society, but only due to its collective dedication.

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J2
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by J2 »

Serragon wrote: May 17th, 2023, 10:36 am And the sanitizing of any semblance of culture continues apace.

The church doesn't seem to realize that it isn't the title of "temple" that makes these buildings special. it is the sacrifice and faith of those who built them as a testament to their love of their God.

I am all for building new temples in places where there is an actual need. But the fruit of this current system of plopping down cookie cutter temples everywhere with no local input or involvement will likely be complacency on the part of the members.
I love this comment.

I'll also add that the apparently "inspired" decision to remove the live endowment and turn the Salt Lake Temple's historic ordinance rooms into generic "movie theater" ordinance rooms is in line with this trend. Russell M. Nelson apparently hates our pioneer legacy.

It was only the protesting of local Saints in Manti that somehow persuaded him to reverse course on that temple's renovation decision.

Sadly, the Salt Lake Temple's ordinance rooms were not saved.

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: New "modular" temples

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You can't blame RMN for hating our history. There's a lot to not like. Its a very long list.

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

Which brings up an interesting question. Do you think if they change the temple enough over a few decades they can filter out all the historical masonry anomolies, distance the temple from its masonic roots and create a new era of Mormonism for the future? Is that the goal? Slow and steady changes over a number of generations until the temple endowment reflects the New Testament instead of the Masonic lodge guidebook?
Last edited by Arm Chair Quarterback on May 19th, 2023, 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Serragon wrote: May 17th, 2023, 10:36 am The church doesn't seem to realize that it isn't the title of "temple" that makes these buildings special. it is the sacrifice and faith of those who built them as a testament to their love of their God.
IMO it is not the sacrifice to build such and edifice that makes them special, it is the combination of higher doctrines, teachings, true laws and ordinances, and the faithful living of those teachings and practices that makes them special. That then becomes a true endowment. That is when the veil is pierced and we commune with angels and even Christ himself. That is when our mortal sphere is taken into heavenly realms.

Good & Global
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Good & Global »

With such skillful handling of Church history and finances, are modular temples just to help members transition to tiny temples?

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Ymarsakar
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Re: New "modular" temples

Post by Ymarsakar »

Good & Global wrote: May 21st, 2023, 2:34 am With such skillful handling of Church history and finances, are modular temples just to help members transition to tiny temples?
Capsule temples.

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