Give Me Thine Honor

[TheDuke]

In pre-mortality Lucifer wanted to lead this creation but the Father chose Jesus. What was Lucifer after?

D&C 29: 36 "..., for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency..."

Moses 4:1 "..., and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor."

Isaiah 14:13-14
"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"

These scriptures say he wanted the following:
1. He wanted god's power and honor.
2. He wanted to be his son.
3. He wanted to be like the most High.

So, what does this mean for Lucifer if he had his way? He said Moses 4:1 "and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it"

It seems like he wanted go be like the Father by being his son and wanted god's power and honor. BTW Jesus seems to have accomplished these things, his Father's honor, power, son.

What is the Father's honor and power that Lucifer wanted?

Was it to make all of us his children instead of the Father's?

[FrankOne]

in short?

Lucifer wishes to remove free will and force righteousness.

coming to a theater near you. (home). When they claim the golden age has come.... think twice. (can i say that strongly enough?)

[TheDuke]

In pre-mortality Lucifer wanted to lead this creation but the Father chose Jesus. What was Lucifer after?

D&C 29: 36 "..., for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency..."

Moses 4:1 "..., and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor."

Isaiah 14:13-14
"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"

These scriptures say he wanted the following:
1. He wanted god's power and honor.
2. He wanted to be his son.
3. He wanted to be like the most High.

So, what does this mean for Lucifer if he had his way? He said Moses 4:1 "and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it"

It seems like he wanted go be like the Father by being his son and wanted god's power and honor. BTW Jesus seems to have accomplished these things, his Father's honor, power, son.

What is the Father's honor and power that Lucifer wanted?

Was it to make all of us his children instead of the Father's?

Also, what does it mean that he will "redeem all mankind". We hear he would see everyone gets a minimum reward? Is that redeem? Usually we think redeem is to bring back, but Satan could not mean that as he wasn't there himself?

[onefour1]

In some way by restricting free will, Satan thought he could save all mankind. He thought he should gain equal honor from all the intelligences in the kingdom by so doing. I believe Satan's fatal flaw was his lack of understanding how important free will is for the progression of mankind. Mankind must learn to choose in and of oneself good over evil. Only in this way was true progression to come about. The rejection of his plan caused him to be angry and start a rebellion against the Father himself. By so doing, he became Perdition and was cast out of heaven.

[Fred]

In saving all of mankind, the Luciferian way, actually enslaves mankind. Forever.

Think of a wild rabbit. When frightened, it runs. In whatever direction it was already headed. Maybe under your tire. It has a safety mechanism in being able to make 90 degree turns very rapidly, that most animals can not duplicate. The chasing predator is left chasing air.

But because the rabbit operates on instinct, it does not use logic to figure things out. It is therefore enslaved by it's instinct. When I come home, rabbits are scared and run into the brush, hoping I will not chase them down. Cats and dogs use logic. Cats and dogs know I will not run them over. Cats and dogs can sit right next to where I always park and receive love when I exit the vehicle. Rabbits do not have this luxury.

Restricting freedom, such as operating on instinct, does remove the possibility of sin. But at an infinite cost.

Only a demon with incredible hatred for mankind, would consider reductions in freedom for their own good. Democrats, socialists, communists, etc. are examples of demonics.

[TheDuke]

In some way by restricting free will, Satan thought he could save all mankind. He thought he should gain equal honor from all the intelligences in the kingdom by so doing. I believe Satan's fatal flaw was his lack of understanding how important free will is for the progression of mankind. Mankind must learn to choose in and of oneself good over evil. Only in this way was true progression to come about. The rejection of his plan caused him to be angry and start a rebellion against the Father himself. By so doing, he became Perdition and was cast out of heaven.

I understand but I don't count Lucifer as stupid or naive. I think he wasn't lying either. I take him at his word and the Father as well. Further he had to be offering something valuable. We are not talking about a room full of fool spirits, but those of or nearly of progression to embark on a path to become a child of god.

Also, I don't get that they were willing to have no freedom or agency, what kind of carrot would that be?

I guess to redeem mankind he would have to give them some of what they wanted. They wanted to be like god, at least to have bodies. I guess if the majority were going to get telestial bodies and a telestial glory anyway and those that failed a lower glory but still be quickened (some kind of body) then what Satan offered had to be in between. Like the telestial, but not really? Seems he must have offered a modicum of enjoyable life's forces as their reward, fun times had by all (doesn't sound like no freedom) and they would become his children. So they get bodies for sure and some glory for sure, but not what the father offered. and perhaps no more chance to progress? Now if you don't buy eternal progression and believe the current LDS stagnation doctrine, it would seem like a pretty good trade for those third part to me? It you believe in eternal progression, then it is trading a happy future for a sure thing today.

[onefour1]

In some way by restricting free will, Satan thought he could save all mankind. He thought he should gain equal honor from all the intelligences in the kingdom by so doing. I believe Satan's fatal flaw was his lack of understanding how important free will is for the progression of mankind. Mankind must learn to choose in and of oneself good over evil. Only in this way was true progression to come about. The rejection of his plan caused him to be angry and start a rebellion against the Father himself. By so doing, he became Perdition and was cast out of heaven.

I understand but I don't count Lucifer as stupid or naive. I think he wasn't lying either. I take him at his word and the Father as well. Further he had to be offering something valuable. We are not talking about a room full of fool spirits, but those of or nearly of progression to embark on a path to become a child of god.

Also, I don't get that they were willing to have no freedom or agency, what kind of carrot would that be?

I guess to redeem mankind he would have to give them some of what they wanted. They wanted to be like god, at least to have bodies. I guess if the majority were going to get telestial bodies and a telestial glory anyway and those that failed a lower glory but still be quickened (some kind of body) then what Satan offered had to be in between. Like the telestial, but not really? Seems he must have offered a modicum of enjoyable life's forces as their reward, fun times had by all (doesn't sound like no freedom) and they would become his children. So they get bodies for sure and some glory for sure, but not what the father offered. and perhaps no more chance to progress? Now if you don't buy eternal progression and believe the current LDS stagnation doctrine, it would seem like a pretty good trade for those third part to me? It you believe in eternal progression, then it is trading a happy future for a sure thing today.

I believe the reason that many sided with Lucifer was because under the Father's plan, all whom come to a mortal world would have their pre-existent memory taken from them and that with free will many would choose evil over good. I believe many were convinced by Lucifer that they had a high probability of not making the mark under the Father's plan.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I think Lucifer lulled many into believing that the Father's plan would lead many to not return and live in his presence. My guess is that they were convinced by Satan and others who already jumped on the band wagon that the Father's plan was cruel and even if they made it some of their very close brothers and sisters may not. Satan was definitely an accuser and they used such a strategy to play on many's spiritual insecurities. He probably accused many of siding with a plan that did not ensure the complete and safe return of all of God's children into His presence.

Revelation 12:10-11
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I believe that Satan was selling his plan as being far superior to the Father's plan and many spirits did not fully understand that free will was critical for one's progression. They fell for the no risk insurance plan and accused those who supported the Father's plan of risking their eternal salvation and not caring for their safe return. They probably painted the Father and Son as uncaring and willing to risk the salvation of his children. I think even stressing free will as an important ingredient in progression did not register with many. They wanted absolute insurance that they would one day become like the Father but didn't fully grasp the concept that one must use their own free will to choose good over evil to truly be a good being. There are many in the world today who through their own bad choices will point the finger at God and blame him for what they themselves have brought upon themselves. Mankind is not always quick to understand the depth of the issues at hand. Lucifer and his minions likely reinforced the idea that his plan was far superior to the Fathers and many, who did not want to risk not making it back to heaven, likely found his plan to be favorable. I think they would have preferred to stay as they were in heaven and not progress as to risk going with the free will thing and possibly not being in heaven anymore. Lucifer managed to get 1/3 to follow after him where 2/3 followed after the Father and Christ. But their rebellion against the only one who could offer them true opportunity to become a God ended up in their being expelled from heaven anyway. Obviously free will existed in the pre-existence and appears to be an eternal principal. However, the pathway to becoming a God cannot be achieved without free will and learning to choose good over evil in and of oneself. Maybe it took one of high standing in the presence of God to rebel to give courage to others to rebel as well. Most of it is primarily speculation on our part of what exactly all the arguments and war was all about. We know Lucifer sought to destroy the agency of man. We know that his plan was thought by himself to be able to save all without one soul being lost. The idea of repentance and forgiveness was not a strong enough argument for some of them and they jumped on the Lucifer bandwagon and were cast out of heaven for it. They simply were turning God's children away from him and were no longer abiding by the laws of heaven. I really think that Lucifer thought very highly of his plan and hated it when it was rejected. I think the war was over the two plans and that Lucifer thought he could somehow make his work and that it was superior to the plan of the Father. Through his plan he felt that he could gain Godhood and honor which is God's power:

Doctrine and Covenants 29:36
36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

[jdt]

Joseph in the King Follett discourse is recorded as saying:

The contention in heaven was this: Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved, and the devil said he could save them all. The grand council gave in for Jesus Christ. So the devil rebelled against God and fell, with all who put up their heads for him. All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost.

I do not believe the idea that the devil offered to save all people through restricting choice, but rather to save all people by forgiving them in their sins (note agency is still destroyed if you are not responsible for the natural consequences of your choices). And not just regular sins that afflict us all here in mortality, but the worst sins, deliberate rebellion against God and Christ, to seek their overthrow and destruction.

[oneClimbs]

In pre-mortality Lucifer wanted to lead this creation but the Father chose Jesus. What was Lucifer after?

D&C 29: 36 "..., for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency..."

Moses 4:1 "..., and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor."

Isaiah 14:13-14
"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"

These scriptures say he wanted the following:
1. He wanted god's power and honor.
2. He wanted to be his son.
3. He wanted to be like the most High.

So, what does this mean for Lucifer if he had his way? He said Moses 4:1 "and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it"

It seems like he wanted go be like the Father by being his son and wanted god's power and honor. BTW Jesus seems to have accomplished these things, his Father's honor, power, son.

What is the Father's honor and power that Lucifer wanted?

Was it to make all of us his children instead of the Father's?

This is one of my favorite verses. Honor is defined as this: "Reverence; veneration; or any act by which reverence and submission are expressed, as worship paid to the Supreme Being"

It isn't God's "honor and power," God says that honor IS his power. It's very simple, read Abraham ch. 4. God speaks, watches, and waits until he is obeyed. When his will is honored by intelligences, then things can happen such as creation. God doesn't force anything, the entire material universe and every particle, even the dust, is intelligent.

So in order to create, God must have the honor of all intelligence so that when he speaks, he is obeyed but not by force, by the honor given to him by intelligence. This is why in this life, the adversary and those that followed him want so badly to be obeyed by tempting us. They cannot tempt us to do good because then the honor goes to the Father and the Son. So they must tempt us in any way that doesn't point to them so they can be honored.

When we follow temptation, we make those evil ones greater than God in terms of one single intelligence. They have succeed in being more convincing to an intelligence than the God of the universe. A small victory but to them, this is all there is and they crave it with all they are. This is why they rant and rave when they cannot obtain it.

[TheDuke]

In some way by restricting free will, Satan thought he could save all mankind. He thought he should gain equal honor from all the intelligences in the kingdom by so doing. I believe Satan's fatal flaw was his lack of understanding how important free will is for the progression of mankind. Mankind must learn to choose in and of oneself good over evil. Only in this way was true progression to come about. The rejection of his plan caused him to be angry and start a rebellion against the Father himself. By so doing, he became Perdition and was cast out of heaven.

I understand but I don't count Lucifer as stupid or naive. I think he wasn't lying either. I take him at his word and the Father as well. Further he had to be offering something valuable. We are not talking about a room full of fool spirits, but those of or nearly of progression to embark on a path to become a child of god.

Also, I don't get that they were willing to have no freedom or agency, what kind of carrot would that be?

I guess to redeem mankind he would have to give them some of what they wanted. They wanted to be like god, at least to have bodies. I guess if the majority were going to get telestial bodies and a telestial glory anyway and those that failed a lower glory but still be quickened (some kind of body) then what Satan offered had to be in between. Like the telestial, but not really? Seems he must have offered a modicum of enjoyable life's forces as their reward, fun times had by all (doesn't sound like no freedom) and they would become his children. So they get bodies for sure and some glory for sure, but not what the father offered. and perhaps no more chance to progress? Now if you don't buy eternal progression and believe the current LDS stagnation doctrine, it would seem like a pretty good trade for those third part to me? It you believe in eternal progression, then it is trading a happy future for a sure thing today.

I believe the reason that many sided with Lucifer was because under the Father's plan, all whom come to a mortal world would have their pre-existent memory taken from them and that with free will many would choose evil over good. I believe many were convinced by Lucifer that they had a high probability of not making the mark under the Father's plan.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I think Lucifer lulled many into believing that the Father's plan would lead many to not return and live in his presence. My guess is that they were convinced by Satan and others who already jumped on the band wagon that the Father's plan was cruel and even if they made it some of their very close brothers and sisters may not. Satan was definitely an accuser and they used such a strategy to play on many's spiritual insecurities. He probably accused many of siding with a plan that did not ensure the complete and safe return of all of God's children into His presence.

Revelation 12:10-11
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I believe that Satan was selling his plan as being far superior to the Father's plan and many spirits did not fully understand that free will was critical for one's progression. They fell for the no risk insurance plan and accused those who supported the Father's plan of risking their eternal salvation and not caring for their safe return. They probably painted the Father and Son as uncaring and willing to risk the salvation of his children. I think even stressing free will as an important ingredient in progression did not register with many. They wanted absolute insurance that they would one day become like the Father but didn't fully grasp the concept that one must use their own free will to choose good over evil to truly be a good being. There are many in the world today who through their own bad choices will point the finger at God and blame him for what they themselves have brought upon themselves. Mankind is not always quick to understand the depth of the issues at hand. Lucifer and his minions likely reinforced the idea that his plan was far superior to the Fathers and many, who did not want to risk not making it back to heaven, likely found his plan to be favorable. I think they would have preferred to stay as they were in heaven and not progress as to risk going with the free will thing and possibly not being in heaven anymore. Lucifer managed to get 1/3 to follow after him where 2/3 followed after the Father and Christ. But their rebellion against the only one who could offer them true opportunity to become a God ended up in their being expelled from heaven anyway. Obviously free will existed in the pre-existence and appears to be an eternal principal. However, the pathway to becoming a God cannot be achieved without free will and learning to choose good over evil in and of oneself. Maybe it took one of high standing in the presence of God to rebel to give courage to others to rebel as well. Most of it is primarily speculation on our part of what exactly all the arguments and war was all about. We know Lucifer sought to destroy the agency of man. We know that his plan was thought by himself to be able to save all without one soul being lost. The idea of repentance and forgiveness was not a strong enough argument for some of them and they jumped on the Lucifer bandwagon and were cast out of heaven for it. They simply were turning God's children away from him and were no longer abiding by the laws of heaven. I really think that Lucifer thought very highly of his plan and hated it when it was rejected. I think the war was over the two plans and that Lucifer thought he could somehow make his work and that it was superior to the plan of the Father. Through his plan he felt that he could gain Godhood and honor which is God's power:

Doctrine and Covenants 29:36
36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

good points! I guess that I still wonder if Lucifer had to "sell" or "lure" or if many just wanted it. Today we have determined in the US that mathematics is racist as statistics (dubious of course) say blacks cannot do well in math. so, we reduce or eliminate the math requirement to graduate. This is bad as it allows people to go to college that don't know math. but it is perceived as fair as some are good at math and others aren't (too me not a race thing, just a fact). The truth is for the underachiever or someone bad at math or a lazy person that thinks there iphone will do their math, it seems more than fair and in their favor, hence it gets by. Just food for thought.

[TheDuke]

Joseph in the King Follett discourse is recorded as saying:

The contention in heaven was this: Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved, and the devil said he could save them all. The grand council gave in for Jesus Christ. So the devil rebelled against God and fell, with all who put up their heads for him. All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost.

I do not believe the idea that the devil offered to save all people through restricting choice, but rather to save all people by forgiving them in their sins (note agency is still destroyed if you are not responsible for the natural consequences of your choices). And not just regular sins that afflict us all here in mortality, but the worst sins, deliberate rebellion against God and Christ, to seek their overthrow and destruction.

Excellent perspective and makes more sense. I mean why would people that want to live free and sin, accept restrictions in their activities? No place to sin, wouldn't appeal to them! but, letting them sin and still make the grade would be appealing, even if the grade was a lower reward.

[Niemand]

I'm going to quote myself here but here are...

... several explanations of Satan's disobedience and punishment:
* LDS: The Book of Abraham's council in Heaven at which Satan's plan was knocked back in favour of Jesus' which favoured free will.
* Muslim. The Koran and Muslim tradition states that Iblis/Satan was a being made of flame, and this is why he refused to bow to a being made of clay (Adam), because he felt it was beneath him.
* Some Roman Catholics/Protestants (others?). Satan was head of the Heavenly Choir and most beautiful of the singers, which led to him becoming guilty of vanity and pride.
* Most Christians, some Jews. Satan wanted to make a power grab and seize God's throne. This is the crudest explanation but not implausible. Satan is the destructive force (like Ahriman in Zoroastrianism.)
* Jews, some Christians and Muslims. Satan is the accusing angel and a necessary part of the plan. He is under orders from God for some purposes (as in the Book of Job), and cannot help obeying him, even though he does so begrudgingly.

[TheDuke]

Well, I don't quite understand it yet, hence, this thread to get inputs. But, I'm pretty sure it has something to do with obtaining "children" either literally or figuratively. I mean with Jesus as the "son", those who make it become his sons and daughters. Where it Lucifer was the son, they would be his. I think somewhere this is the real goal. Depending on how you see "being children of god", i.e. adopted spirits, spirit offspring, literal children of celestial parents, this changes. but the first step in getting our reward is becoming a "child of Christ" then to the father. So, with Lucifer, you would become his child and then w/o any of the father's glory (as they didn't merit it), they would not be brought to the father.

something like that, still pondering.

[TheDuke]

So, what honor does Jesus get for those who are saved by him? relative to the Father that is? It says, as I read it, that Lucifer wanted that same honor.

While Jesus was in the flesh he said to honor the father, not him. but after the atonement, we don't see him say that. It says he is the Christ and the way and the path and to honor him by following his commandments.

There is something here in common that Lucifer was after but it yet isn't clear to me. I think it has to do with the new spirits that become children of Christ and the honor therein.

[BeNotDeceived]

It would be interesting to get Michael Sherwin’s input on this matter.

[Niemand]

Here's another thought. What if the council was convened because Lucifer was already causing trouble?

[TheDuke]

I don't think Lucifer caused the council.

The more I study, the more I fully believe these "creation events" area quite regular occurrences. There is a process that allows intelligences that are advanced enough to vie for becoming children of god to progress. I think these creations provide this opportunity; as well as opportunities for already children of god to progress as well, and even celestial beings "souls" to provide service and progress.

I think part of the process of this creation, which is "unique" as the "most wicked" of all of god's creations; since it allows non-literal children of god (yet) to a probation or tryout to become one. All god's worlds of glory don't have non-children or balance by Satan, only here.

[TheDuke]

The council was to include or not include the newbies that wanted probation and a chance to become children of god. If Lucifer brought them to the Father, he got the honor and they'd be his children, in his level of glory. If Jesus did, then the Father got the glory and they become children of the father.

[Comanchero]

President Monson gave a great talk called the 3 r's of choice-

"I mention first the right of choice. I am so grateful to a loving Heavenly Father for His gift of agency, or the right to choose. President David O. McKay, ninth President of the Church, said, “Next to the bestowal of life itself, the right to direct that life is God’s greatest gift to man.”

We know that we had our agency before this world was and that Lucifer attempted to take it from us. He had no confidence in the principle of agency or in us and argued for imposed salvation. He insisted that with his plan none would be lost, but he seemed not to recognize—or perhaps not to care—that in addition, none would be any wiser, any stronger, any more compassionate, or any more grateful if his plan were followed."

Those who have fallen for Satan's plan in this part of mortality are easy to spot. They support compulsory means to forward Satan's plan on earth. Forced vaccines for the good of society. Forced funding for Godless schools. The list goes on but it's always for the good of all, that not one soul will be lost or left behind, we must all contribute to the plan. Smart people fall for the deception all the time. Go to church and look over the congregation- almost everyone supports Satan's plan of using force for the good of society. Like the Borg from Star Trek- assimilate or die. The secret combinations are had among us, the people.

[InfoWarrior82]

Individual free will vs collective compulsion and force.

Lucifer wanted to BE God. He wanted to rule with unrighteous dominion.

[TheChristian]

If Jesus was God, which I truly believe He is as the Book of Isaiah attests repeatedly to then only He could come down to this earth He had created and pay the price of sin, endure the heavy load of his creations sins apon the Cross and only He being God could arise from the dead.
Yes it would have to be God Himself to come to this earth to be the perfect sacrifice, no other in the heavens were worthy.
Indeed the lowly Jesus of Nazerath was God manifest in the flesh, yet though He be the almighty, the everlasting and eternal Father, the King, Redeemer, Saviour, whom shares His glory with no other, that there is no Gods beside Him, none were created before Him, none shall come after Him, yes this One God, was a servant King to all His creation and the witness of that was Calvary...........
Neither satan or any other angelic being could of paid the price of our sin apon the cross, nor could they of arisen from the dead. They had not the perfection, the power or the glory.
This is why we chose our Lord Jesus in the heavens, for only He our God and our Father was perfect, had the power and the Glory hence could save our souls.

Jesus said to His disciples ... "Without Me you can do nothing"

A saying that spans all the eternities.

[TheDuke]

Individual free will vs collective compulsion and force.

Lucifer wanted to BE God. He wanted to rule with unrighteous dominion.

Agree, but what does it mean for him to be god? Just the boss of this world? Why would this take the father's honor? Do you see a lot of people honoring the Father in this world (few Christians at best).

Seems to me his UD and compulsion were not his goal but his mechanism. I feel he really wanted something more, something eternal. I don't see this temporary earth of a few thousand years as his long-term goal. I think he wanted to take people here as eternal children vs. becoming the Father's children.

It starts to gel more to me that one element of this creation is preparing people and offering them to become Christ's children. Which at some point, he will present to the Father to become Father's children. I feel Lucifer wanted them to become his children and his honor and his glory.

Jesus spoke often of becoming his child or Lucifer's child. We take that as very figurative but did he only mean it figuratively?

[Atrasado]

Lucifer wanted something for nothing. He could not help us become like Heavenly Father because he didn't have enough love to perform an atonement for all mankind. However, he lied and said that we could come to mortality and be governed by good instincts such that we wouldn't sin and with his plan we would all return. However, we would return as puppets and would not have any faith, which would keep us from ever being like God.

We could no more progress under Satan's plan than we could get stronger by just sitting on a chair in a weight room.

I suspect there is a lot that we don't know about pre-mortality and just as much that we don't know about post-mortality. I also suspect that Lucifer was very high in progression towards God, but something in God's plan didn't work for him and he couldn't take the final step. He fell because of pride and envy and now is incapable of love.

And that's the secret. All things honor God because He loves us and serves us perfectly. Satan can't have God's honor or steal it because he didn't and doesn't have the grace needed for that kind of love or the humility to attain that grace. He could never allow himself to be the least like Jesus.

[TheDuke]

Lucifer wanted something for nothing.

However, he lied and said that we could come to mortality and be governed by good instincts such that we wouldn't sin and with his plan we would all return.

Interesting. Got a scripture to support these two statements?

I'm not sure Lucifer wanted something for nothing. I don't recall anywhere it says he was lazy or such?

I don't think Lucifer could lie in the pre-mortal arena. Doesn't seem like that is allowed in god's plans. I don't see this as a viable option. More like he talked of partial truths that resonated well with 1/3 part.

Where did he say we wouldn't sin? He said he would "redeem" all. I don't see much more detail. I guess it would be good to understand his use of "redeem".

[Atrasado]

Lucifer wanted something for nothing.

However, he lied and said that we could come to mortality and be governed by good instincts such that we wouldn't sin and with his plan we would all return.

Interesting. Got a scripture to support these two statements?

I'm not sure Lucifer wanted something for nothing. I don't recall anywhere it says he was lazy or such?

I don't think Lucifer could lie in the pre-mortal arena. Doesn't seem like that is allowed in god's plans. I don't see this as a viable option. More like he talked of partial truths that resonated well with 1/3 part.

Where did he say we wouldn't sin? He said he would "redeem" all. I don't see much more detail. I guess it would be good to understand his use of "redeem".

Satan told God that he wanted His honor because of his plan, but his plan couldn't work, at all. That is something for nothing. Con artists can sometimes be some of the hardest working people out there. They still are looking for something for nothing.

D&C 93:25 says, "And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning." That would make it seem that he lied in pre-mortality. Also, we know that he lied because the plan he presented in the Grand Council was a complete and total lie.