One Third Part are here among us

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Godislove
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Godislove »

ransomme wrote: May 10th, 2023, 9:35 am Satan's earthly followers are into transhumanism for a reason.

Many believe that they are looking to create bodies to inhabit and seek a type of physical immortality.

Makes more sense than them being sent to earth to party.
I completely agree with this. Also, I know this is random but there's supposedly these humanoid aliens with the large black almond eyes. I think they are trying hard to create any kind of body to inhabit because that's how desperately they want one. And if the eyes are the window to the soul that speaks volumes about their large black lifeless eyes.

Godislove
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

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Wolfwoman
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Wolfwoman »

Lucifer’s or Satan’s seed = sons of perdition. I guess? It’s right there in the word. Son.

I wonder if there are daughters?

It seems that there wouldn’t be many (sons or daughters), considering Joseph Smith’s definition of what it means to deny the Holy Ghost.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Ymarsakar »

ransomme wrote: May 10th, 2023, 9:35 am Satan's earthly followers are into transhumanism for a reason.

Many believe that they are looking to create bodies to inhabit and seek a type of physical immortality.

Makes more sense than them being sent to earth to party.
More or less what I and others have surmised.

AI transhuman timeline, the MRNA mutations, cyborgs will be called "children" soon enough.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Shawn Henry »

TheDuke wrote: May 9th, 2023, 4:45 pm Not sure I take the seed thing here literally. It seems figurative, like becoming a child of god by choosing good and keeping commandments or choosing evil and becoming a child of hell or Satan or the devil.

But we could go around on literal vs. figurative statements all day. I don't see anywhere it says Satan was born as a mortal man on this earth, anywhere. Cain did, and Cain may be his literal offspring? But not Satan. IMO.
It already is a literal comparison. Eve literally had seed. Why would a comparison be made between literal seed and figurative seed. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In Isaiah Satan is cast out of his grave. That's means that he has had or will have a physical body. Spirits do not get graves. Physical bodies get graves.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Shawn Henry »

Godislove wrote: May 9th, 2023, 7:02 pm Actually, it's pretty plain from the scriptures since they certainly weren't cast out and thrust down to earth at that time to receive a mortal body. In fact the scriptures tell us they seek our misery.
We also know through the scriptures that all mortals are born with the light of Christ, sorry but that doesn't include the 1/3.
Also, take into account all the scriptural accounts of people being afflicted by evil and unclean spirits. I think it's pretty apparent they are denied a mortal body.
It's not plain at all. It's clear you are superimposing your preconceived notions onto the text.

Either way, they "seek our misery". That statement has no bearing on whether they are just spirits or not. I'm not sure why you would even say that. Both sides already agree that they seek our misery.

Why wouldn't all you are born have access to the light of Christ? There is opposition in "all things", not opposition only among those who follow Christ. All who are born can choose which spirit to listen to.

Also, why do you keep referring to unclean spirits inhabiting bodies. Just like not all of God's children are here in the flesh at the same time, not all of Satan's children are here in the flesh at the same time. Satan has followers on both sides, just like God does.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Shawn Henry »

ransomme wrote: May 10th, 2023, 9:35 am Satan's earthly followers are into transhumanism for a reason.

Many believe that they are looking to create bodies to inhabit and seek a type of physical immortality.

Makes more sense than them being sent to earth to party.
Some Brighamite traditions we just can't let go of no matter what the scriptures say.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Shawn Henry »

Do you all really think giants are spirits who chose God's plan?

For the love of all that is holy, let's turn on our thinking caps.

Giants have 6 fingers on each hand, two rows of teeth on each jaw, and are cannibals. Does that sound like the image of God to you?

Previous versions of the transhumanist movement have created satyrs and centaurs. Do you think God allowed his spirits to be born into those bodies?

Godislove
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Godislove »

Shawn Henry wrote: May 10th, 2023, 10:57 am
TheDuke wrote: May 9th, 2023, 4:45 pm Not sure I take the seed thing here literally. It seems figurative, like becoming a child of god by choosing good and keeping commandments or choosing evil and becoming a child of hell or Satan or the devil.

But we could go around on literal vs. figurative statements all day. I don't see anywhere it says Satan was born as a mortal man on this earth, anywhere. Cain did, and Cain may be his literal offspring? But not Satan. IMO.
It already is a literal comparison. Eve literally had seed. Why would a comparison be made between literal seed and figurative seed. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In Isaiah Satan is cast out of his grave. That's means that he has had or will have a physical body. Spirits do not get graves. Physical bodies get graves.
I disagree that it's a literal comparison. Satan's seed = his followers
Adam and Eve's seed = God's followers, those who chose his plan to be born into mortality.
I also believe grave is not literal. One of the meanings of grave is a place of discarded objects. Who better knows where the discarded/thrust out/cast down Satan dwells than God.
Rev 2:13
“I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: ...."
He is not going to die a death because he can receive no body. He openly rejected the plan and took others with him.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Shawn Henry »

Godislove wrote: May 10th, 2023, 11:43 am I disagree that it's a literal comparison. Satan's seed = his followers
Adam and Eve's seed = God's followers, those who chose his plan to be born into mortality.
I also believe grave is not literal. One of the meanings of grave is a place of discarded objects. Who better knows where the discarded/thrust out/cast down Satan dwells than God.
Rev 2:13
“I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: ...."
He is not going to die a death because he can receive no body. He openly rejected the plan and took others with him.
Do you see how you have to twist the meanings of words to match your narrative. I, on the other hand, use the words as written to form my world view.

Seed means seed. Try to find seed meaning followers in any dictionary. The vast majority of Eve's seed don't even follow God.

The same thing with grave; it means grave. Isaiah never would have used grave if he didn't mean grave. People don't use graves to "discard objects".

I notice you chose to ignore my very valid question of whether you think giants, who clearly are not in the image of God, have God's spirits within them.

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TheDuke
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by TheDuke »

Shawn Henry wrote: May 10th, 2023, 1:17 pm
Godislove wrote: May 10th, 2023, 11:43 am I disagree that it's a literal comparison. Satan's seed = his followers
Adam and Eve's seed = God's followers, those who chose his plan to be born into mortality.
I also believe grave is not literal. One of the meanings of grave is a place of discarded objects. Who better knows where the discarded/thrust out/cast down Satan dwells than God.
Rev 2:13
“I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: ...."
He is not going to die a death because he can receive no body. He openly rejected the plan and took others with him.
Do you see how you have to twist the meanings of words to match your narrative. I, on the other hand, use the words as written to form my world view.

Seed means seed. Try to find seed meaning followers in any dictionary. The vast majority of Eve's seed don't even follow God.

The same thing with grave; it means grave. Isaiah never would have used grave if he didn't mean grave. People don't use graves to "discard objects".

I notice you chose to ignore my very valid question of whether you think giants, who clearly are not in the image of God, have God's spirits within them.
and god could raise up "see" to Abraham from the rocks? Not always is "seed" literal. mustard seed, Gal 3:16 baptized equals seed of Abraham; 1 Peter 1:23 - corruptible seed; 1 John 3:9 being born again becomes an incorruptible seed................ I could go on, but these are all "figurative" uses of the word "seed" in the bible alone.

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ransomme
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by ransomme »

Shawn Henry wrote: May 10th, 2023, 10:57 am
TheDuke wrote: May 9th, 2023, 4:45 pm Not sure I take the seed thing here literally. It seems figurative, like becoming a child of god by choosing good and keeping commandments or choosing evil and becoming a child of hell or Satan or the devil.

But we could go around on literal vs. figurative statements all day. I don't see anywhere it says Satan was born as a mortal man on this earth, anywhere. Cain did, and Cain may be his literal offspring? But not Satan. IMO.
It already is a literal comparison. Eve literally had seed. Why would a comparison be made between literal seed and figurative seed. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In Isaiah Satan is cast out of his grave. That's means that he has had or will have a physical body. Spirits do not get graves. Physical bodies get graves.
What's the citation on that Isaiah verse?

Godislove
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Godislove »

TheDuke wrote: May 10th, 2023, 1:26 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: May 10th, 2023, 1:17 pm
Godislove wrote: May 10th, 2023, 11:43 am I disagree that it's a literal comparison. Satan's seed = his followers
Adam and Eve's seed = God's followers, those who chose his plan to be born into mortality.
I also believe grave is not literal. One of the meanings of grave is a place of discarded objects. Who better knows where the discarded/thrust out/cast down Satan dwells than God.
Rev 2:13
“I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: ...."
He is not going to die a death because he can receive no body. He openly rejected the plan and took others with him.
Do you see how you have to twist the meanings of words to match your narrative. I, on the other hand, use the words as written to form my world view.

Seed means seed. Try to find seed meaning followers in any dictionary. The vast majority of Eve's seed don't even follow God.

The same thing with grave; it means grave. Isaiah never would have used grave if he didn't mean grave. People don't use graves to "discard objects".

I notice you chose to ignore my very valid question of whether you think giants, who clearly are not in the image of God, have God's spirits within them.
and god could raise up "see" to Abraham from the rocks? Not always is "seed" literal. mustard seed, Gal 3:16 baptized equals seed of Abraham; 1 Peter 1:23 - corruptible seed; 1 John 3:9 being born again becomes an incorruptible seed................ I could go on, but these are all "figurative" uses of the word "seed" in the bible alone.
Exactly. :)

Godislove
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Godislove »

Shawn Henry wrote: May 10th, 2023, 1:17 pm
Godislove wrote: May 10th, 2023, 11:43 am I disagree that it's a literal comparison. Satan's seed = his followers
Adam and Eve's seed = God's followers, those who chose his plan to be born into mortality.
I also believe grave is not literal. One of the meanings of grave is a place of discarded objects. Who better knows where the discarded/thrust out/cast down Satan dwells than God.
Rev 2:13
“I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: ...."
He is not going to die a death because he can receive no body. He openly rejected the plan and took others with him.
Do you see how you have to twist the meanings of words to match your narrative. I, on the other hand, use the words as written to form my world view.

Seed means seed. Try to find seed meaning followers in any dictionary. The vast majority of Eve's seed don't even follow God.

The same thing with grave; it means grave. Isaiah never would have used grave if he didn't mean grave. People don't use graves to "discard objects".

I notice you chose to ignore my very valid question of whether you think giants, who clearly are not in the image of God, have God's spirits within them.
I have 2 stuck together toes, does that make me not in the image of God? True story. 😂 But people have been known to be born with all sorts of abnormalities and giants aren't the only ones that choose cannibalism. Could they have been under some sort of curse by God though?? possibly....just like some were cursed with darkskin, idleness and warlike tendencies.
A 'place to discard objects' is actually an accepted definition of grave and Isaiah lived a long time ago so that could very well be his intended meaning.
Last edited by Godislove on May 10th, 2023, 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BigT
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by BigT »

After a bit of pondering and study, it’s my opinion this is not a question that can be answered by sticking to the topic. We’ve got to look into the pre-existence, when the “war in heaven” took place (or is it ongoing?), and what exactly are the scriptures talking about when they say Christ, a (true) apostle, a prophet, or any other person who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood casts a “spirt,” “evil spirit,” or a “demon” out of a person.

Pre-Existence

Abraham 3:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

Estate (Webster’s 1828 Dictionary): In law, the interest, or quantity of interest, a man has in lands, tenements, or other effects. Or, material possessions.

Material: Consisting of matter; not spiritual; as material substance; material bodies.

Let’s look at the reference’s chronology.

24) Matter is available to construct a place for the organized spirits to live.

25) The purpose of the earth is to “prove” the spirits, to see what they will do with a physical body. Interesting use of “prove” instead of something like “test.” Prove: To try; to ascertain some unknown quality or truth by an experiment.

26.) Since “estate” also has to do with material matter, the “first estate” is the first opportunity for a spirit body to prove themselves. It’s all about physical matter, not spirit. There is no talk of proving the spirits while they are in a spiritual form (no body). So, YOUR “first estate” begins when you were born.

27) Keep your first estate and you will be “added upon.” Fail to keep your first estate and you can’t swim in the pool with the ones who did.

So, what is the “second estate?” (Almost) everyone is going to die, which we understand as the separation of the spirit from the body (matter). Keeping in the theme of physical nature of the proving (matter not spirit, estate, etc.) the second time we (everyone who had a first estate) get another “estate” is when we are restored to our physical matter, our bodies.

Restoration vs. resurrection is not well understood by most. Here is one of the best scriptures on this topic (there are many, though):

Alma 11
43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; (notice this isn’t resurrection where all our flaws/weaknesses will be corrected to the degree we deserve) and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt (yes, there will be a judgement of a sort then, but this is not the final judgement at the “last day”).

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, …

45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, (we go from mortal body to immortal, not from spirit to immortal as the modern church teaches) that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

When does this occur? For most, at the start of the Millennium, after either the 1st or 2nd trump. (Well, we don’t really know how many sons of perdition there are, do we?)

The second estate, then, is the time between the restoration and when we are changed in the “twinkling of an eye,” sometime during the Millennium.

D&C 43
30 For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come.
31 For Satan shall be bound, and when he is loosed again he shall only reign for a little season, and then cometh the end of the earth.
32 And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and the earth shall pass away so as by fire.

What will we be doing during the Millennium, what will our second estate consist of? Who comes forth in the 1st resurrection (there are others, of course)?

D&C 45
54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.

It will be the second estate for those heathens and they need to be taught the true gospel of Christ. (Who wants to go on a 2nd mission, this time with Christ as your mission president?) I imagine the children who die before the age of accountability (8 for those living in a Zion) will be resurrected here, as well, but the scriptures don’t specify that.

The heathen will need to be taught, the wicked will need to repent, Christ will rule for 1,000 years without Satan’s meddling, then the “little season,” then the final battle, then the “last” day when the final judgement occurs.

What about the ⅓ part being among us? This post is already too long for most to wade through, so I’ll post again tomorrow. For those not put to sleep by this long post.

P.S.
I’m a wicked man trying my best to repent. I could never have “divined” this, though it be right or wrong, on my own. My sources are:

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... nd-estate/

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... probation/
(This is is particularly interesting as Watcher takes a couple on the chin from a reader.)

Iron Rod Podcast, the one on restoration.

The Holy Spirit, the shared mind of the Father and the Son, who are one God.

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BigT
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by BigT »

ransomme wrote: May 10th, 2023, 1:35 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: May 10th, 2023, 10:57 am
TheDuke wrote: May 9th, 2023, 4:45 pm Not sure I take the seed thing here literally. It seems figurative, like becoming a child of god by choosing good and keeping commandments or choosing evil and becoming a child of hell or Satan or the devil.

But we could go around on literal vs. figurative statements all day. I don't see anywhere it says Satan was born as a mortal man on this earth, anywhere. Cain did, and Cain may be his literal offspring? But not Satan. IMO.
It already is a literal comparison. Eve literally had seed. Why would a comparison be made between literal seed and figurative seed. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In Isaiah Satan is cast out of his grave. That's means that he has had or will have a physical body. Spirits do not get graves. Physical bodies get graves.
What's the citation on that Isaiah verse?
Isaiah 14:11-19

Godislove
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Godislove »

ransomme wrote: May 10th, 2023, 1:35 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: May 10th, 2023, 10:57 am
TheDuke wrote: May 9th, 2023, 4:45 pm Not sure I take the seed thing here literally. It seems figurative, like becoming a child of god by choosing good and keeping commandments or choosing evil and becoming a child of hell or Satan or the devil.

But we could go around on literal vs. figurative statements all day. I don't see anywhere it says Satan was born as a mortal man on this earth, anywhere. Cain did, and Cain may be his literal offspring? But not Satan. IMO.
It already is a literal comparison. Eve literally had seed. Why would a comparison be made between literal seed and figurative seed. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In Isaiah Satan is cast out of his grave. That's means that he has had or will have a physical body. Spirits do not get graves. Physical bodies get graves.
What's the citation on that Isaiah verse?
Isaiah 14:19
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

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Niemand
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Niemand »

Godislove wrote: May 10th, 2023, 10:10 am
ransomme wrote: May 10th, 2023, 9:35 am Satan's earthly followers are into transhumanism for a reason.

Many believe that they are looking to create bodies to inhabit and seek a type of physical immortality.

Makes more sense than them being sent to earth to party.
I completely agree with this. Also, I know this is random but there's supposedly these humanoid aliens with the large black almond eyes. I think they are trying hard to create any kind of body to inhabit because that's how desperately they want one. And if the eyes are the window to the soul that speaks volumes about their large black lifeless eyes.
According to some people, animal mutilations are about this. They seem to be nocturnal as well.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Ymarsakar »

The humanoid aliens called greys or rather short greys, may be an android created by the dark state using reverse engineered technology.

This is because their memory reprogramming ability via mk ultra was still spotty, so when they reabducted the people the ETs abducted, the military industrial complex tried to disguise themselves as ETs when they reabducted people and tried to put implants in them. I suspect because they wanted to get information of where this abductees were going.

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TheDuke
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by TheDuke »

BigT wrote: May 10th, 2023, 2:19 pm After a bit of pondering and study, it’s my opinion this is not a question that can be answered by sticking to the topic. We’ve got to look into the pre-existence, when the “war in heaven” took place (or is it ongoing?), and what exactly are the scriptures talking about when they say Christ, a (true) apostle, a prophet, or any other person who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood casts a “spirt,” “evil spirit,” or a “demon” out of a person.

Pre-Existence

Abraham 3:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

Estate (Webster’s 1828 Dictionary): In law, the interest, or quantity of interest, a man has in lands, tenements, or other effects. Or, material possessions.

Material: Consisting of matter; not spiritual; as material substance; material bodies.

Let’s look at the reference’s chronology.

24) Matter is available to construct a place for the organized spirits to live.

25) The purpose of the earth is to “prove” the spirits, to see what they will do with a physical body. Interesting use of “prove” instead of something like “test.” Prove: To try; to ascertain some unknown quality or truth by an experiment.

26.) Since “estate” also has to do with material matter, the “first estate” is the first opportunity for a spirit body to prove themselves. It’s all about physical matter, not spirit. There is no talk of proving the spirits while they are in a spiritual form (no body). So, YOUR “first estate” begins when you were born.

27) Keep your first estate and you will be “added upon.” Fail to keep your first estate and you can’t swim in the pool with the ones who did.

So, what is the “second estate?” (Almost) everyone is going to die, which we understand as the separation of the spirit from the body (matter). Keeping in the theme of physical nature of the proving (matter not spirit, estate, etc.) the second time we (everyone who had a first estate) get another “estate” is when we are restored to our physical matter, our bodies.

Restoration vs. resurrection is not well understood by most. Here is one of the best scriptures on this topic (there are many, though):

Alma 11
43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; (notice this isn’t resurrection where all our flaws/weaknesses will be corrected to the degree we deserve) and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt (yes, there will be a judgement of a sort then, but this is not the final judgement at the “last day”).

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, …

45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, (we go from mortal body to immortal, not from spirit to immortal as the modern church teaches) that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

When does this occur? For most, at the start of the Millennium, after either the 1st or 2nd trump. (Well, we don’t really know how many sons of perdition there are, do we?)

The second estate, then, is the time between the restoration and when we are changed in the “twinkling of an eye,” sometime during the Millennium.

D&C 43
30 For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come.
31 For Satan shall be bound, and when he is loosed again he shall only reign for a little season, and then cometh the end of the earth.
32 And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and the earth shall pass away so as by fire.

What will we be doing during the Millennium, what will our second estate consist of? Who comes forth in the 1st resurrection (there are others, of course)?

D&C 45
54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.

It will be the second estate for those heathens and they need to be taught the true gospel of Christ. (Who wants to go on a 2nd mission, this time with Christ as your mission president?) I imagine the children who die before the age of accountability (8 for those living in a Zion) will be resurrected here, as well, but the scriptures don’t specify that.

The heathen will need to be taught, the wicked will need to repent, Christ will rule for 1,000 years without Satan’s meddling, then the “little season,” then the final battle, then the “last” day when the final judgement occurs.

What about the ⅓ part being among us? This post is already too long for most to wade through, so I’ll post again tomorrow. For those not put to sleep by this long post.

P.S.
I’m a wicked man trying my best to repent. I could never have “divined” this, though it be right or wrong, on my own. My sources are:

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... nd-estate/

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... probation/
(This is is particularly interesting as Watcher takes a couple on the chin from a reader.)

Iron Rod Podcast, the one on restoration.

The Holy Spirit, the shared mind of the Father and the Son, who are one God.
Good post. But what really is Abraham talking about for the first and second estate? It isn't real estate or defined in Webster's. The first estate is reference to the pre-mortal council. I think we all accept that. And keeping the first estate is to follow Christ and not Satan.

The place I disagree with current LDS teachings (not really doctrine) is what it means to not keep their first estate. LDS says they are cast out and are SoP. but that is not what the scriptures say. Abraham 3:26 ...and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate.... So, it clearly says they will not have the same kingdom. but it does not say they are SoP or that they have "no kingdom", or no bodies. It just says they will merit less than those that stay with Christ's plan in the council. I personally see it that they got the boot from the planning or "spiritual creation" phase and get what they get, which will not put them where they could have been.

Further, in D&C 88: 32 it says ...they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.... So, we see they go back where they came from! Obviously not heaven. And not SoP as they were not SoP before the planning council. It also does not say they don't get a body here. It says the will be resurrected "quickened", which means they MUST have had a body here, how else could they be resurrected?

What is the second estate? It is this earth life. So, if you keep this earth life; that is do what you needed to do or planned to do; then you keep progressing Abraham verse continued .....they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever..... So, who doesn't get glory added? The SoP for sure. But Joseph in D&C 88 clearly says even the Telestial is added glory; so only the SoP are those that kept not their first estate; along with any others that don't merit Telestial per D&C 88. LDS doesn't discuss the group of those who kept not their second estate, yet are not SoP and are returned to where they came from. Show me any teachings here. I found none. I don't think they know. But we can see they came from some where not celestial and return to not a kingdom of glory. Hence, they could not have been in the council in the celestial, and the council was in heaven but not the celestial.

Not sure how the millennium discussion fits here? Can you follow up on how it fits with the 1/3 part? Perhaps I'm a bit dense or too focused elsewhere.

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BigT
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by BigT »

TheDuke wrote: May 10th, 2023, 3:49 pm
Not sure how the millennium discussion fits here? Can you follow up on how it fits with the 1/3 part? Perhaps I'm a bit dense or too focused elsewhere.
I’m just setting background for why I think your OP is correct. Certainly not your density but rather my clumsy attempt to explain something that I’m pretty sure I don’t fully understand and isn’t well explained in the scriptures. Perhaps on purpose?

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TheDuke
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

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BigT wrote: May 10th, 2023, 4:04 pm
TheDuke wrote: May 10th, 2023, 3:49 pm
Not sure how the millennium discussion fits here? Can you follow up on how it fits with the 1/3 part? Perhaps I'm a bit dense or too focused elsewhere.
I’m just setting background for why I think your OP is correct. Certainly not your density but rather my clumsy attempt to explain something that I’m pretty sure I don’t fully understand and isn’t well explained in the scriptures. Perhaps on purpose?
ok, thanks, just didn't want to miss your point!

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Original_Intent
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Original_Intent »

So, even though you disagree with my thought, let me just expound further as to why it might be a bit healthier than what you postulate.

If we accept that they are "among us" the natural next step is to identify them. This is called "witch-hunting."

We are far better off and the world is far better off when we examine ourselves for the evil within than trying to identify the evil without.

I know some good upstanding LDS that to this day think they are doing a great thing is supporting Brother Mitt Romney, for instance.

I wouldn't want these folks out trying to identify the third part, no thank you.

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ransomme
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by ransomme »

BigT wrote: May 10th, 2023, 2:21 pm
ransomme wrote: May 10th, 2023, 1:35 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: May 10th, 2023, 10:57 am
It already is a literal comparison. Eve literally had seed. Why would a comparison be made between literal seed and figurative seed. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In Isaiah Satan is cast out of his grave. That's means that he has had or will have a physical body. Spirits do not get graves. Physical bodies get graves.
What's the citation on that Isaiah verse?
Isaiah 14:11-19
That's what I thought but that's not what those passages say. That's not Satan, that is Satan's servant, the Endtime king of Babylon, the king of Assyria, the antichrist, the stout horn, etc.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: One Third Part are here among us

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

BigT wrote: May 10th, 2023, 2:19 pm After a bit of pondering and study, it’s my opinion this is not a question that can be answered by sticking to the topic. We’ve got to look into the pre-existence, when the “war in heaven” took place (or is it ongoing?), and what exactly are the scriptures talking about when they say Christ, a (true) apostle, a prophet, or any other person who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood casts a “spirt,” “evil spirit,” or a “demon” out of a person.

Pre-Existence

Abraham 3:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

Estate (Webster’s 1828 Dictionary): In law, the interest, or quantity of interest, a man has in lands, tenements, or other effects. Or, material possessions.

Material: Consisting of matter; not spiritual; as material substance; material bodies.

Let’s look at the reference’s chronology.

24) Matter is available to construct a place for the organized spirits to live.

25) The purpose of the earth is to “prove” the spirits, to see what they will do with a physical body. Interesting use of “prove” instead of something like “test.” Prove: To try; to ascertain some unknown quality or truth by an experiment.

26.) Since “estate” also has to do with material matter, the “first estate” is the first opportunity for a spirit body to prove themselves. It’s all about physical matter, not spirit. There is no talk of proving the spirits while they are in a spiritual form (no body). So, YOUR “first estate” begins when you were born.

27) Keep your first estate and you will be “added upon.” Fail to keep your first estate and you can’t swim in the pool with the ones who did.

So, what is the “second estate?” (Almost) everyone is going to die, which we understand as the separation of the spirit from the body (matter). Keeping in the theme of physical nature of the proving (matter not spirit, estate, etc.) the second time we (everyone who had a first estate) get another “estate” is when we are restored to our physical matter, our bodies.

Restoration vs. resurrection is not well understood by most. Here is one of the best scriptures on this topic (there are many, though):

Alma 11
43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; (notice this isn’t resurrection where all our flaws/weaknesses will be corrected to the degree we deserve) and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt (yes, there will be a judgement of a sort then, but this is not the final judgement at the “last day”).

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, …

45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, (we go from mortal body to immortal, not from spirit to immortal as the modern church teaches) that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

When does this occur? For most, at the start of the Millennium, after either the 1st or 2nd trump. (Well, we don’t really know how many sons of perdition there are, do we?)

The second estate, then, is the time between the restoration and when we are changed in the “twinkling of an eye,” sometime during the Millennium.

D&C 43
30 For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come.
31 For Satan shall be bound, and when he is loosed again he shall only reign for a little season, and then cometh the end of the earth.
32 And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and the earth shall pass away so as by fire.

What will we be doing during the Millennium, what will our second estate consist of? Who comes forth in the 1st resurrection (there are others, of course)?

D&C 45
54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.

It will be the second estate for those heathens and they need to be taught the true gospel of Christ. (Who wants to go on a 2nd mission, this time with Christ as your mission president?) I imagine the children who die before the age of accountability (8 for those living in a Zion) will be resurrected here, as well, but the scriptures don’t specify that.

The heathen will need to be taught, the wicked will need to repent, Christ will rule for 1,000 years without Satan’s meddling, then the “little season,” then the final battle, then the “last” day when the final judgement occurs.

What about the ⅓ part being among us? This post is already too long for most to wade through, so I’ll post again tomorrow. For those not put to sleep by this long post.

P.S.
I’m a wicked man trying my best to repent. I could never have “divined” this, though it be right or wrong, on my own. My sources are:

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... nd-estate/

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... probation/
(This is is particularly interesting as Watcher takes a couple on the chin from a reader.)

Iron Rod Podcast, the one on restoration.

The Holy Spirit, the shared mind of the Father and the Son, who are one God.
Great post, Big T. I tend to agree that the first estate begins when we're born. I think the following verses also support this:

2 Nep. 9:7 equates the fall, or our birth into mortality/corruption (material) as the "first judgement". (x Mosiah 2:23, "in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives")

But do you think that perhaps our second estate could occur through something like passing into the "second veil" (Heb. 9:3) or the second comforter. I wonder if this process of sanctification could bring material changes while we're still in the flesh?

Alma 13
5 in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren
6 being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God
7 which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years
8 they were ordained after this manner
9 thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years
11 therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

D&C 84
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

D&C 88
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

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