One Third Part are here among us

[TheDuke]

ok, valid scriptures, but how does that help in the 1/3 part discussion? Knowing there are spirits and bodied beings is well, ok, not sure anyone has disagreed with that. but, how does that apply to this case?

BTW not sure any normal ranking spirit (good or evil) can be an angel of light, seems like a Satan-level type being?

Interesting there are few real meaty scriptures that talk about spirits taking over or mixing with bodies, outside the OT and JS's may be true but odd. When was the last time he or anyone else we know of had to offer a hand to find out what kind of being we were with? Not that I disagree, but never heard of practical use for that one. Frankly, it would be hard to imagine not knowing if a being is solid or not, IMO. I've never seen one, but have had experiences. And a visitation from an angel would trigger much more than wondering what kind of being it was. In fact, almost all (believable) instances seem to be in vision, like Joseph's D&C 76. It doesn't help to do this vision, i.e. seeing Jesus on a golden platform at his throne. It only helps when a being shows up in the woods and starts chatting you up about godly things. Just putting it out there that the reality of some of these (most of these) talks of interacting with spirits from modern scripture seem to be there to make us calmer and unworried about interacting with the spiritual and to provide a bit of balance if we, were for some reason to be visited by an unearthly being.

Although, seems like the message might also be a key to solving the reality of it.

[zionbuilder]

Well.....as for spirits appearing, it was very difficult, for me, to tell the difference between a fleshy being and a spirit being. I wasn't expecting it at the time so with hindsight I can see how I overlooked some abnormalities, but there appears to be very little difference to my eye....and Im certain that's because everything is made of matter/light energy. Also, I falsely assumed a spirit being would be somewhat transparent, not opaque and interacting with this plane so well. Though I have seen shadow beings as well, which fits more along with what I had imagined, and I actually have a video of one from my doorbell camera. D&C 131:7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; 8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter

I've found this scripture to be true....when I am seeking to see, I do. I am also cautious because I assume there are many spirits that want to be heard and seen. In the case of the shadow man, it was my two children who saw him and then we went back and saw that he was on camera. I actually apologized to my daughter because I thought she was just messing with us. I've seen one, one other time in person, walking down my stairs after my husband put a PG-13 movie on upstairs that I was not willing to watch because I was in a period of seeking/fasting.

[Thinker]

OI said that earlier. I fully disagree, but too each his/her own. I cannot comprehend the commandments and teachings if they are interpreted to say they are teaching the individual atomic level intelligences within us. the teachings to me make no sense. they only make sense if we are a single being of spirit and body or a soul.

I don't see Abraham standing in the midst of spiritual atoms and talking to them, then clumping them into spirits. To me the intelligences have already been enlarged (read KFD and D&C 93) and become spirits or spiritual entities capable of animating live, even if it be dogs, cats, fish, etc... long before being "enlarged" as Joseph would say to animate a human body.

I cannot comprehend Abraham being there as 400 million intelligence atoms and hearing what is written about being a great and noble one.

Sorry, it seems way to figurative. and often, the figurative or philosophical and that tends to make god more obscure and untouchable and I feel that is actually, not good, and counter the process of coming "to know thee the only true god" as Jesus would say.

BTW, I'm not a philosopher, I despise it personally, for what it is worth. that doesn't mean I don't philosophize, but not as a product, as a process.

I coulda sworn I responded, maybe similar topic on another thread.

I didn’t say anything about atoms. It’s not about physicality - but about spirituality.
Spirituality makes no sense if it’s somewhere outside you. How can you feel God outside you? How can you experience anything outside you?

Spiritual stories are parables - not to be taken historically or literally, but to be applied symbolically & personally.

As I said on another thread a while back (several actually) I see things were there is a spiritual plane, a realm that is part of this universe but is weakly interactive. But on the spirit plane or realm, spiritual light, or just "light" connects all things spiritually. They are not one but have instant communication and connection. It is like our photonic light, but I don't think there is a time lapse or speed limit, making things seem more closely connected. In the physical universe light takes time, which means nothing if your close but becomes a problem over large distances. Anyway spiritual light from the gods is called the Light of Truth and in this creation all spiritual light is managed or controlled or sourced (pick your understanding) by Christ and defined as the Light of Christ. So, the LoC, the LoT and the HG and the Holy Spirit all communicate via this mechanism to our spirits. Our spirit convey it to our bodies.

So, I feel that god is not within us. God is a man, well Jesus is a man, the Father is a man, Mother is a woman, HG another, etc.... but the spirit connection to the LoT is within us. It isn't god per se but his reach if you will. I think there is a huge difference, but remember, I am an engineer and a scientist and not a philosopher.

As I read your reply, I thought how true it is that “truth is defined based on perspective” and that all perspectives are needed. Like that scripture…

• "And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you." - Corinthians 12:21

You May see things more concretely as an engineer - & I may see things more abstractly or intuitively - both are pieces of the reality puzzle.

I know “ philosophies of men” get a bad rap, but that’s what scriptures are really. They just happen to be philosophies of men that got a dogmatic/authoritative stamp of approval. Philosophizing is thinking. How could thinking be bad? “As a man thinketh in his heart so is he.” I AM that I AM” - both suggest the need to not only think but also to evaluate how we think. Explore perspectives, don’t be too quick to assume there is only 1 way of focusing on something.

[Niemand]

Interesting topic, maybe section 129 can help us. For me, Satan and his hosts are energetic entities capable of transforming into angels of light. They are in this world with the desire to have a body of flesh and blood. They are looking for a house (body) to parasitize and feed on the fear and suffering of people, seeking misery. The elite of this world are ruled by these entities.

SECTION 129
Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, February 9, 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished.
1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.
1 There are two kinds of beings in aheaven, namely: bAngels, who are cresurrected personages, having dbodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not aflesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the aspirits of bjust men made cperfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the aorder of heaven for a just man to bdeceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not bfeel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand akeys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

The obvious problem is that spirits can interact with physical materials, and have even assaulted people physically.

The elite of this world are ruled by these entities.

Yes, I think so, and why?
* Such spirits would go to those who can influence others.
* They would empower those who will submit to them.
* They would influence other humans to empower such types.
* Those who are greedy etc will often turn to darkness to further their aims.

[Good & Global]

Anytime you entertain a spiritual manifestation there is a likelihood of deception. This isn't to say we shouldn't seek spiritual truth but it is a risk.

I know of no fisherman that got soggy pant legs from watching tv on the couch.

[TheDuke]

I coulda sworn I responded, maybe similar topic on another thread.

I didn’t say anything about atoms. It’s not about physicality - but about spirituality.
Spirituality makes no sense if it’s somewhere outside you. How can you feel God outside you? How can you experience anything outside you?

Spiritual stories are parables - not to be taken historically or literally, but to be applied symbolically & personally.

As I said on another thread a while back (several actually) I see things were there is a spiritual plane, a realm that is part of this universe but is weakly interactive. But on the spirit plane or realm, spiritual light, or just "light" connects all things spiritually. They are not one but have instant communication and connection. It is like our photonic light, but I don't think there is a time lapse or speed limit, making things seem more closely connected. In the physical universe light takes time, which means nothing if your close but becomes a problem over large distances. Anyway spiritual light from the gods is called the Light of Truth and in this creation all spiritual light is managed or controlled or sourced (pick your understanding) by Christ and defined as the Light of Christ. So, the LoC, the LoT and the HG and the Holy Spirit all communicate via this mechanism to our spirits. Our spirit convey it to our bodies.

So, I feel that god is not within us. God is a man, well Jesus is a man, the Father is a man, Mother is a woman, HG another, etc.... but the spirit connection to the LoT is within us. It isn't god per se but his reach if you will. I think there is a huge difference, but remember, I am an engineer and a scientist and not a philosopher.

As I read your reply, I thought how true it is that “truth is defined based on perspective” and that all perspectives are needed. Like that scripture…

• "And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you." - Corinthians 12:21

You May see things more concretely as an engineer - & I may see things more abstractly or intuitively - both are pieces of the reality puzzle.

I know “ philosophies of men” get a bad rap, but that’s what scriptures are really. They just happen to be philosophies of men that got a dogmatic/authoritative stamp of approval. Philosophizing is thinking. How could thinking be bad? “As a man thinketh in his heart so is he.” I AM that I AM” - both suggest the need to not only think but also to evaluate how we think. Explore perspectives, don’t be too quick to assume there is only 1 way of focusing on something.

Again, I take D&C 93 and the KFD, etc. as Joseph taught them. In the beginning were simple intelligences that "enlarged themselves". Whether by growing, lumping, whatever, it isn't clear; but they became capable of managing a living organism, even mammals. These are what we call "spirits" though the term "spirit" is overloaded with many meanings. In the context of this thread, I tried to keep spirits to the "enlarged intelligences" and "spirit children" to mean spirit that are also literal children of god. Not a "cosmic spiritual thingy". NOT that that perspective and use isn't valid but it makes this thread too complex to manage.

Some posts above dive into "evil spirits", which I suppose are assumed to be unembodied "enlarged intelligences" or some would consider "spirit children of god" gone rogue.

I'm not accepting the later on face value even though I know there are discussions of evil spirits in the scriptures. Most are ancient and claim these spirits are causing illness and all else, yet even when Jesus talks of casting out "evil spirits" it isn't clear he is referring to "spirit beings" and not something of lower form; after all the entire bible doesn't not even talk about spirit beings or spirit world, or pre-mortal spirits or pre-mortal council, or anything LDS are taught. So, it is tough to take those words, transcribed by people that don't accept LDS cosmology and map them to LDS entities. And what little we have from JS, mostly early, is equally vague or useless and was put out of his vocabulary later in his teachings as he understood deeper.

BTW I'm not dissing on these evil spirit things, I'm just saying taking things literally as some posts above, isn't necessarily accurate for understanding this thread. IMO.

[cab]

The end of the millennium is the beginning of the premortal council of a new world. Great and noble one’s are identified and hear the call of here am I send me. It also is the time where beings fall and are allowed to condescend into worlds to seek further progression in the kingdoms of darkness. Our simple idea of premortality is very flawed and incorrect.

[FromTheSouthTower]

Interesting topic, maybe section 129 can help us. For me, Satan and his hosts are energetic entities capable of transforming into angels of light. They are in this world with the desire to have a body of flesh and blood. They are looking for a house (body) to parasitize and feed on the fear and suffering of people, seeking misery. The elite of this world are ruled by these entities.

SECTION 129
Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, February 9, 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished.
1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.
1 There are two kinds of beings in aheaven, namely: bAngels, who are cresurrected personages, having dbodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not aflesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the aspirits of bjust men made cperfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the aorder of heaven for a just man to bdeceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not bfeel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand akeys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

The obvious problem is that spirits can interact with physical materials, and have even assaulted people physically.

The elite of this world are ruled by these entities.

Yes, I think so, and why?
* Such spirits would go to those who can influence others.
* They would empower those who will submit to them.
* They would influence other humans to empower such types.
* Those who are greedy etc will often turn to darkness to further their aims.

In my opinion I think there is something else, in apocalypse chapter 13 verse 14 and 15 it tells us about the fact that everyone was ordered to make that image, but it says there that a spirit will enter it. That will reach another dimension, that is, it will not only be a mechanical issue or with a human component, that is, something done by us, but there will be a spiritual aspect that will be wonderful for people, everyone will have to say we do not have an explanation. for this, it is bigger than what we have ever seen and the supreme objective is to replace God, the antichrist wants to lay a foundation for satan to replace God, he will use technology. The technology will be praised and admired, but there will be one more step, towards something beyond what man can do and this will be the final axis so to speak to move people massively towards accepting it, because who is like the beast they will say and it will have this unique element that will come from an unclean demon, from an unclean spirit, something supernatural that will come to amaze the world.

[TheDuke]

The end of the millennium is the beginning of the premortal council of a new world. Great and noble one’s are identified and hear the call of here am I send me. It also is the time where beings fall and are allowed to condescend into worlds to seek further progression in the kingdoms of darkness. Our simple idea of premortality is very flawed and incorrect.

Interesting thoughts, do you have any sources? I do believe this is a repetitive process. I'm not sure I believe they are back-to-back though, but never thought of how often. Not sure they are all as brutal as this one is, but maybe.

If you believe in MMP like I do (or even not MMP but eternal progression) then it takes a long time to progress and if you start again right away it seems you've got a lot in parallel. Which is ok, I guess. Always figured there was time in between to prep and make next plan.

Not sure I accept the idea that anyone falls, frankly, I don't see a need for that. And given Jesus said that he "lost not one given him of the Father" it seems that any progressed being (vs. those in probation) don't fall, or didn't under Jesus' watch anyway.

[TheDuke]

Was reading this in the Early and Morning Star

...The secret of the matter is, that God, in his infinite wisdom prepared the children of promise, the heirs of the Celestial kingdom, to live twice in the flesh on the earth, once in a state of probation; and once in a state of approbation, and this is the reason why Job exclaimed: For I know my Redeemer liveth, and he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God...

Here the teaching in was come here in probation and return in approbation, Why? Once to become a child of Christ the second to become a child of the Father! Only the third part are in probation.

[Thinker]

As I read your reply, I thought how true it is that “truth is defined based on perspective” and that all perspectives are needed. Like that scripture…

• "And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you." - Corinthians 12:21

You May see things more concretely as an engineer - & I may see things more abstractly or intuitively - both are pieces of the reality puzzle.

I know “ philosophies of men” get a bad rap, but that’s what scriptures are really. They just happen to be philosophies of men that got a dogmatic/authoritative stamp of approval. Philosophizing is thinking. How could thinking be bad? “As a man thinketh in his heart so is he.” I AM that I AM” - both suggest the need to not only think but also to evaluate how we think. Explore perspectives, don’t be too quick to assume there is only 1 way of focusing on something.

Again, I take D&C 93 and the KFD, etc. as Joseph taught them. In the beginning were simple intelligences that "enlarged themselves". Whether by growing, lumping, whatever, it isn't clear; but they became capable of managing a living organism, even mammals. These are what we call "spirits" though the term "spirit" is overloaded with many meanings. In the context of this thread, I tried to keep spirits to the "enlarged intelligences" and "spirit children" to mean spirit that are also literal children of god. Not a "cosmic spiritual thingy". NOT that that perspective and use isn't valid but it makes this thread too complex to manage.

Some posts above dive into "evil spirits", which I suppose are assumed to be unembodied "enlarged intelligences" or some would consider "spirit children of god" gone rogue.

I'm not accepting the later on face value even though I know there are discussions of evil spirits in the scriptures. Most are ancient and claim these spirits are causing illness and all else, yet even when Jesus talks of casting out "evil spirits" it isn't clear he is referring to "spirit beings" and not something of lower form; after all the entire bible doesn't not even talk about spirit beings or spirit world, or pre-mortal spirits or pre-mortal council, or anything LDS are taught. So, it is tough to take those words, transcribed by people that don't accept LDS cosmology and map them to LDS entities. And what little we have from JS, mostly early, is equally vague or useless and was put out of his vocabulary later in his teachings as he understood deeper.

BTW I'm not dissing on these evil spirit things, I'm just saying taking things literally as some posts above, isn't necessarily accurate for understanding this thread. IMO.

“They” say… that the afterlife is far more bizarre than our minds can comprehend. And I get the sense that logic goes out the window. So of course this is all just speculation.

Some speculation is more helpful than others, at least IMO. If you want to try to speculate about the nitty gritty, Leibniz’s theory of monads seems to give the link between the spiritual and physical. But what good is it other than basically saying how perspective is such a big deal? Well, some say the basis of the spirit realm is empathy.

If “as above, so below,” then just as there are people with tendencies toward good or evil in various ways - same spiritually. Maybe without the veil, they can intuitively sense more - especially the extent & way how spirits enlarge themselves (maybe the purpose of life). Loved ones still love as they did - or maybe a bit better without the veil.

[TheDuke]

“They” say… that the afterlife is far more bizarre than our minds can comprehend. And I get the sense that logic goes out the window. So of course this is all just speculation.

Actually, I feel very strongly the opposite it true. The more I study, learn and receive the spirit the more I feel the afterlife is nearly identical in many ways to this life. And in fact for 99% of the people on this earth, exactly like this life, w/o Satan's influence. There was a thread, maybe 2 years ago, I think by Alexander, that discussed this world as just another telestial world. Many great references. Turned me around on my thinking on this topic. I do think that perhaps w/o evil, perhaps illness, and some more guidance from higher level beings.

[TheDuke]

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, the gave the right to become children of God,

So, John says if you believe in Jesus you can become his child. Obviously if you don't then you will not. It never says you already "are" or "were". It also doesn't say some are or aren't.

Jesus never (personally) taught non-Israelites in his life. Moses teachings seemed to say that some (Caananites) were not of same (spiritual?) lineage as others. Can this mean some are and some aren't literal offspring of god. I mean obviously the (seemingly obviously) the great and noble ones are and Jesus was/is a literal son of the father?

[TheDuke]

ok, I was pointed to this quote from 1832 Evening and Morning Star by Jonathan Stapley as I queried about probation and approbation. It says here (for what it is worth) two interesting things.

First, those that are Israel are "elect". We see elect as those who obtain the celestial kingdom. Obviously this definition of Israel cannot be just lineage but those who accept Christ.

Second, it says the "elect" come to earth (or a probationary state) twice; once to earn the right to become a child of god "probation" and once to earn the celestial glory "approbation".

The Evening and the Morning Star, Vol.1, No.2, p.14
The fifth verse directs to the time of the gathering, and positively promises their return, which our Savior referred to, when he declared that he would send his angels and gather his Elect. Here let it be known once for all, that Israel, the twelve tribes of Jacob, are the Elect of God.... The secret of the matter is, that God, in his infinite wisdom prepared the children of promise, the heirs of the Celestial kingdom, to live twice in the flesh on the earth, once in a state of probation; and once in a state of approbation, ...

Thoughts?

[Cruiserdude]

ok, I was pointed to this quote from 1832 Evening and Morning Star by Jonathan Stapley as I queried about probation and approbation. It says here (for what it is worth) two interesting things.

First, those that are Israel are "elect". We see elect as those who obtain the celestial kingdom. Obviously this definition of Israel cannot be just lineage but those who accept Christ.

Second, it says the "elect" come to earth (or a probationary state) twice; once to earn the right to become a child of god "probation" and once to earn the celestial glory "approbation".

The Evening and the Morning Star, Vol.1, No.2, p.14
The fifth verse directs to the time of the gathering, and positively promises their return, which our Savior referred to, when he declared that he would send his angels and gather his Elect. Here let it be known once for all, that Israel, the twelve tribes of Jacob, are the Elect of God.... The secret of the matter is, that God, in his infinite wisdom prepared the children of promise, the heirs of the Celestial kingdom, to live twice in the flesh on the earth, once in a state of probation; and once in a state of approbation, ...

Thoughts?

I had never read anything like that, that two time probation and approbation deal. I mean MMP is one thing, but this is different.

[Thinker]

Actually, I feel very strongly the opposite it true. The more I study, learn and receive the spirit the more I feel the afterlife is nearly identical in many ways to this life…

It seems that initially, yes, the spirit world right after death is practically identical to this life, to help the transition and also as part of the process. But then, as we are able to let go of the carnal, and realize we are pure consciousness - THEN - it becomes different.

If you haven’t already, check out Swedenborg’s spiritual insights. Lots of interesting stuff about the spirit world and afterlife that makes more sense than a lot of other theories, IMO.

He doesn’t have a monopoly on truth, but I am appreciating possibilities to some questions I’ve wondered about.


The World of Spirits (I made notes in that Swedenborg thread) https://www.youtube.com/live/qoaPwhzDHWM?feature=share

[TheDuke]

Actually, I feel very strongly the opposite it true. The more I study, learn and receive the spirit the more I feel the afterlife is nearly identical in many ways to this life…

It seems that initially, yes, the spirit world right after death is practically identical to this life, to help the transition and also as part of the process. But then, as we are able to let go of the carnal, and realize we are pure consciousness - THEN - it becomes different.

If you haven’t already, check out Swedenborg’s spiritual insights. Lots of interesting stuff about the spirit world and afterlife that makes more sense than a lot of other theories, IMO.

He doesn’t have a monopoly on truth, but I am appreciating possibilities to some questions I’ve wondered about.


The World of Spirits (I made notes in that Swedenborg thread) https://www.youtube.com/live/qoaPwhzDHWM?feature=share

I guess we will disagree. Of course that means god really didn't do very well on making this world for us to learn, I mean if the endgame is so abstract from this life.

Also, if you accept any basic LDS teachings there are many different "mansions" or places to go (or park for a while). It seems very clear from JS that if you only merit the Telestial, then it is almost identical to here, but nicer (no Adversary to contend with). As I said there was a whole list of many, many scriptures a couple years back on a thread that clearly showed that this world is a "telestial sphere" taken over for this testing period. I don't see anything at all abstract about getting a telestial reward. As, I study and the spirit whispers, I see less abstraction as beings progress as well. Seems scriptures say the terrestrial is different in spiritual things, never says anything about the bodies. Although they are "different". Celestial, way different, eternal burnings and all that, but with "same sociality that exists here".

I'm sorry I feel all the abstraction stories are from the Adversary to confuse and stymie our progress. Look at what truths were taken from the Bible and why, always about who/what god is. I'm struggling with LDS doctrine today as I study deeply what our current leaders teach; and is is the same pattern. More of the vague stuff with "trust us" than concrete truths.

I didn't accept any of Swedenborg's stuff. I read it, started with enthusiasm and then the spirit waned then fully left. He's a fraud in my opinion according to the spirit. Like many it seemed he started with impressions and some truths then lost his way. IMO. I'll stick with Joseph's teachings, not because they are LDS, because most no longer are, but because the spirit continually confirms their truth to me.

Now one reminder, I said "truth" and what is truth? It is what we are here to gain, not abstract notions. Truth is "the knowledge of ....." not the facts but the knowledge or comprehension or understanding of things/facts of past, present and future. The key is "knowledge". What is eternal life? According to Jesus it is "knowledge of the father". All the BS about vagueness is NOT knowledge, it just isn't. It is the opposite. Sure, I mean we cannot have "all" knowledge and faith is required. but living by all faith doesn't even get you out of the telestial. Knowledge does. Well along with either good works or lack of bad works and habits and a testimony of Christ.

I keep emphasizing this "knowledge" aspect as the Lord has made it clear to me, especially over the past 3 years that it is essential to exaltation. Perhaps little is required to "enter the gate", i.e. testimony of Christ and baptism to enter the path, i.e. terrestrial, but for celestial, we must gain knowledge.

It is trite to listen to the bland statements of the endowment about passing the sentinels. It is true however, just not about handshakes and names, it is about knowledge. The final frontier (in progression), I mean even cats have desires and vague notions of happiness and eternal feelings, but not knowledge.

[zionbuilder]

The thing essential for Exaltation is Forgiveness....it's something we're taught in the scriptures. But, as I've shared before, it was made crystal clear with His voice when I heard Him say "Forgiveness is a Principle Designed for the Exalting of One's Self" I wish I could share the download of knowledge that came with the phrase....but I can't. But it's all about forgiveness.....of self. Of others. Even Christ being exalted from the Son to the Father of our Salvation was done through forgiveness via the Atonement. Through Love ......it's why charity is the greatest gift you can seek.....not knowledge. Satan/Lucifer has knowledge, even knowledge of the father....but that didn't help with his Exaltation.

[Cruiserdude]

The thing essential for Exaltation is Forgiveness....it's something we're taught in the scriptures. But, as I've shared before, and was made crystal clear with His voice when I heard Him say "Forgiveness is a Principle Designed for the Exalting of One's Self" I wish I could share the download of knowledge that came with the phrase....but I can't. But it's all about forgiveness.....of self. Of others. Even Christ being exalted from the Son to the Father of our Salvation was done through forgiveness via the Atonement. Through Love ......it's why charity is the greatest gift you can seek.....not knowledge. Satan/Lucifer has knowledge, even knowledge of the father....but that didn't help with his Exaltation.

You're spot on, on a personal level it is all about extending mercy and forgiveness. It truly is. This is the way of Christ, the way of our Master, Jesus Christ.
Thanks for sharing as it helps confirm what I feel I've been guided towards

[Ymarsakar]

Atonement

The At One moment. The moment where you feel One with God and the Universe. Where there is no hatred or fear of the Other.

Aka Enlightenment or satori or samadhi.

The thing essential for Exaltation is Forgiveness....it's something we're taught in the scriptures. But, as I've shared before, and was made crystal clear with His voice when I heard Him say "Forgiveness is a Principle Designed for the Exalting of One's Self" I wish I could share the download of knowledge that came with the phrase....but I can't. But it's all about forgiveness.....of self. Of others. Even Christ being exalted from the Son to the Father of our Salvation was done through forgiveness via the Atonement. Through Love ......it's why charity is the greatest gift you can seek.....not knowledge. Satan/Lucifer has knowledge, even knowledge of the father....but that didn't help with his Exaltation.

You're spot on, on a personal level it is all about extending mercy and forgiveness. It truly is. This is the way of Christ, the way of our Master, Jesus Christ.
Thanks for sharing as it helps confirm what I feel I've been guided towards

[TheDuke]

I'm going to just drop this here. I have been busy in Utah helping my sons (independently) move homes. But I feel I must just say this.

I have been DRIVEN for over 3 years to comprehend the true "plan of salvation". I cannot explain why. I have always been driven to learn the truth. But for nearly 40 years it has been tossing the teachings in the air and waiting for them to make sense. Never, have I doubted the true gospel. But for me there is no peace until I see where I fit. Me, and my family and my peers around me, not the entire darned world. I don't usually feel tormented, but pressed, really really pressed. Lately it has been unrelenting.

I started seeing pieces of the big picture when I accidently found FF. God spoke to me with his voice twice. I started tossing truths out the door and understanding deeper ones. (BTW my main complaint here is the negative and tearing down that has taken over because before I learned. I only had to tear down to rebuilt, not because the spirit of hate/contention/frustration reigned control here).

Well, I've been posting pieces on this and a couple other threads, about Lucifer's motivation, and heavenly mother and truths found in Joseph's almost now hidden teachings. A few months ago it all came together. I could see the entire purpose of "life". All life, all creatures, all kingdoms of glory and even purpose of lower kingdoms and worlds w/o number. The creation and objectives of "life".

There were still (always will be questions). then the past several months the Lord has commanded me to write it down to make it clearer. I have begun asking more detailed questions. Miraculously he has been sending me links, comments, statements, scriptures, and revelations to answer my questions. To me it is all coming more clear. I've tried to share some insights here. Some get by others pushed away, that's ok. I get incredible feedback from even antagonistic responses and times. Key words and thoughts from what seems unreasonable arguments. Boom, new light and knowledge.

TRUTH, is knowledge of things...... not facts but knowledge of facts. Hell, we can learn facts in the spirit world, we CANNOT learn truth however, except for here (and world's like this, though not always so dark). I am very close to having "my truth". My knowledge of the "essence of life".

Anyway, just wanted to mention this for anyone interested. If no one is that is also ok as I said it is honestly, and by revelation "my truths" not necessarily anyone else's anyway. But along the way I have also learned a few facts upon which my truths are based and seems those facts may dispel other's rumors or wrong teachings. Not my job to teach, but it is to share or testify what I've "seen" as that I have been commanded (obtain by faith, see, then share and testify).

Anyway, I'm not a PC person (as many already know). and many don't really care about the big picture as daily issues are more pressing, which is the reality of this telestial experience.

Got to go, but the end is going to be that this world/creation is, as John Pratt says, housing souls that are elect to both grow and rule; spirits (children) of god in approbation; and the third part are not god's children yet, but may choose so and if they do, will become children of Christ then after purification become literal children of the Father(s). And the one third part are the majority of the earth's inhabitants and have been from the beginning; just trying not to become children of Lucifer or cast out or go back where they came from or being SoP, or any of those options.

[Shawn Henry]

I have yet to get a response from anyone that shows either a scripture or even a prophetic quote of where the notion that the third part don't get bodies.

If we cannot find something, and I have scoured LDS.org. I'm going to say this is a myth and it is IMO busted. (it might be correct but is unsubstantiated and like any folklore, may have some inherent value, but then again may not; and I feel "not").

So, fair is fair, right. You can't find in scripture that they don't get bodies, but yet you also can't find in scripture a heavenly mother, but you just referenced her. Perhaps a more ubiquitous application is in order. I don't know.

[Shawn Henry]

maybe section 129 can help us.

The provenance of 129 is from BY not JS. It was an 1876 addition to the D&C. It is alleged to be what Joseph taught, yet Joseph never made the claim. When selecting sections for the 1844 addition to the D&C, Joseph purposefully omitted this section, which is more a witness against it than it is for it. Every word shall be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses and section 129 has zero witnesses.

[TheDuke]

I have yet to get a response from anyone that shows either a scripture or even a prophetic quote of where the notion that the third part don't get bodies.

If we cannot find something, and I have scoured LDS.org. I'm going to say this is a myth and it is IMO busted. (it might be correct but is unsubstantiated and like any folklore, may have some inherent value, but then again may not; and I feel "not").

So, fair is fair, right. You can't find in scripture that they don't get bodies, but yet you also can't find in scripture a heavenly mother, but you just referenced her. Perhaps a more ubiquitous application is in order. I don't know.

fair enough. If you want to jump to a discussion of heavenly mother, it will be scriptureless for sure, I agree. Then you need personal revelation and everything is a "personal opinion" or "personal revelation" ON the heavenly mother front................................. I've spoken to mine, briefly and wonderfully, just once and she said it would be the only time in this life. But, I'll take it! So, I have "my truth" there and don't think I'm interested in anyone else's opinions unless accompanied by direct revelation, and that includes McConkie and RMN. BTW Joseph didn't document any teachings on it, only taught it in privacy.

[TheDuke]

maybe section 129 can help us.

The provenance of 129 is from BY not JS. It was an 1876 addition to the D&C. It is alleged to be what Joseph taught, yet Joseph never made the claim. When selecting sections for the 1844 addition to the D&C, Joseph purposefully omitted this section, which is more a witness against it than it is for it. Every word shall be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses and section 129 has zero witnesses.

I don't find any value in 129 personally, but to say it is from BY, please provide evidence Shawn. Looking at the JSP it is pretty clear there are documented listeners from 1843 when BY was out of town. Now the actual words were written at times from 43-45 but in Clayton's handwriting. Wasn't BY's matra in Nauvoo to use him to write words. If you're claiming it is form 1850's or later in SLC, then it doesn't fit the handwriting! What is your specific claim here? You just don't like it or what? (BTW on this thread I'm still trying to see where angels and spirits fit? I guess as many see them as the one third doing this full time on this earth?)