One Third Part are here among us

[TheDuke]

I have stated that I don't believe the one third part from the pre-mortal council were cast down without bodies. There was a thread about this a couple years ago and claimed it was 1920's or later this doctrine was created. It set well with me and turned me around on this to believe the doctrine of 1/3 part not getting bodies is not only not correct but not scriptural.

Abraham 3: 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

It doesn't say damned but not being in the same kingdom as those that kept their first estate. It seems to mean they didn't finish their preparations and were cast out of the planning session and are here among us with bodies but no plan other than to live life and have fun.

BTW JS in KFD and in other places says you cannot be a SoP w/o having had a body, a premortal spirit doesn't have the ability to be a SoP. Neither does a person that hasn't had the testimony of the HG.

[BuriedTartaria]

Wow! Fascinating concept. I could totally see this being true.

[Fred]

I have stated that I don't believe the one third part from the pre-mortal council were cast down without bodies. There was a thread about this a couple years ago and claimed it was 1920's or later this doctrine was created. It set well with me and turned me around on this to believe the doctrine of 1/3 part not getting bodies is not only not correct but not scriptural.

Abraham 3: 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

It doesn't say damned but not being in the same kingdom as those that kept their first estate. It seems to mean they didn't finish their preparations and were cast out of the planning session and are here among us with bodies but no plan other than to live life and have fun.

BTW JS in KFD and in other places says you cannot be a SoP w/o having had a body, a premortal spirit doesn't have the ability to be a SoP. Neither does a person that hasn't had the testimony of the HG.

I believe that you are correct.
We know for sure that one of the third parts got kicked out with Lucifer.
We also know that the second third part believed Jesus in that God had the better plan.
I believe that the remaining third part was initially undecided. They really thought that Lucifer was right. They were leftists and believed that removal of freedoms for security was a good idea. Like RMN, they believed that it is for our own good to give up certain freedoms in place of security. But they also realized a very important feature of God's plan of freedom and that is that they could have the freedom to follow Lucifer with a body. All they had to do was attempt to fool God by choosing His plan so that once they were born, they could become democrats, communists, socialists, etc., and follow Lucifer with a body. God was not fooled. God did allow them the freedom to follow Lucifer with a body. They were evil the day they were born.

There was a time when I thought all children were born good. I thought there were only bad parents. One day in Priesthood Meeting, an old rancher stood up to tell me how wrong I was. He said that he had been raising cattle for over 60 years and some cows are just bad.

The difference between God's plan and Lucifer's plan can be summed up in one word. Freedom. God allows people to make bad decisions. Including following Lucifer with a body.

Think about it. No human that is thinking clearly would choose slavery over freedom. But, bad spirits believe that loss of freedoms can be for your own good. Of course that thinking is pure evil. But there is no other reason in existence to be a democrat, socialist, communist, etc.

No person of sound mind would ever believe in the completely stupid stuff that leftists believe in. No amount of brainwashing can make a person that stupid. Defective spirits have no trouble with the concept at all. One of the reasons to come to earth and prove ourselves.

[Robin Hood]

I too believe there were three divisions. One agreed with the Father's plan, one sided with Lucifer, and the other didn't want to play the game. They were happy with their lot and didn't want to go through mortality etc. No exaltation for them but they're fine with that.

However, I suspect Satan's demons/evil spirits are the unemdobied group that followed him. Why would they choose not to have bodies? Because the promises made to them by Lucifer upon his ultimate victory, were worth it. This is why they're so committed to the cause.

[BuriedTartaria]

I noticed Brian recently referenced the concept of NPCs (videogame slang for 'empty' or computer controlled characters in a game that you exist in) in a thread and while he may have been partly kidding, I think he may have been also being partly serious (maybe I'm wrong and he was just kidding entirely). Perhaps this notion that many bodies in the world are sort of empty and serving a role as NPCs (blank slate soldiers at the command of the computer at the command of the video game) is kind of correct if this 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven perspective is true or true to an extent. This is really wild to ponder.

[Robin Hood]

I also have time for the theory that this whole thing is a Matrix type simulation. When we leave the pre-existence we don't actually go anywhere, we simply plug-in to this program like they do in the film. Therefore, we chose the mortality program, and others made different choices.

[Niemand]

I think there are a substantial proportion who haven't had bodies and that may be a very obvious reason why they hate/envy us, and want to destroy ours.

Your idea does account for some individuals.

[Niemand]

I noticed Brian recently referenced the concept of NPCs (videogame slang for 'empty' or computer controlled characters in a game that you exist in) in a thread and while he may have been partly kidding, I think he may have been also being partly serious (maybe I'm wrong and he was just kidding entirely). Perhaps this notion that many bodies in the world are sort of empty and serving a role as NPCs (blank slate soldiers at the command of the computer at the command of the video game) is kind of correct if this 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven perspective is true or true to an extent. This is really wild to ponder.

There is a very good explanation for NPCs. Some of those people have, or had, the potential for free agency, but instead they became followers out of fear, or ended up submitting to a routine because it was an easier course to take.

The Japanese have an idea that if you do something fifteen minutes a day, it becomes second nature. Maybe some of these NPCs learnt in childhood that it was easier not to rock the boat, and wanted the quiet life. (It's a surprisingly tempting option, and schools promote it early on.) By habit, they ended up becoming that thing.

[Wolfwoman]

Is it a third part or 1/3 part? There is a difference. The first idea is that there were 3 different groups. One of them having followed Lucifer. The second idea is that 1/3 of Father’s children followed Lucifer.

I believe they don’t have bodies, but I could be wrong. If they have bodies then they will be resurrected and that is part of the gift of the atonement, which they rejected. I think it’s possible for them to repent though and still choose to follow the Father’s plan.

[Wolfwoman]

Oh yeah, and there is also the idea of the angels or sons of God who looked down at the earth and saw beautiful women and they decided to come down here and procreate with them and they created “mighty men” through their procreation.
I suppose they would be considered “fallen”, but they have bodies. *shrug*

[Niemand]

Is it a third part or 1/3 part? There is a difference. The first idea is that there were 3 different groups. One of them having followed Lucifer. The second idea is that 1/3 of Father’s children followed Lucifer.

Groups of three, I suspect, rather than a mathematical third. This would mean none of the three parts would be of equal size to the other two.

I believe they don’t have bodies, but I could be wrong. If they have bodies then they will be resurrected and that is part of the gift of the atonement, which they rejected. I think it’s possible for them to repent though and still choose to follow the Father’s plan.

There are people with bodies who will fall. It is worth wondering if the reverse is true. They may receive a lesser estate but also be responsible for undermining Satan's plan.

We know that demons periodically obtain a body, but it is someone else's. I do not think it is possible to repent while possessing another's.

[nightlight]

I have stated that I don't believe the one third part from the pre-mortal council were cast down without bodies. There was a thread about this a couple years ago and claimed it was 1920's or later this doctrine was created. It set well with me and turned me around on this to believe the doctrine of 1/3 part not getting bodies is not only not correct but not scriptural.

Abraham 3: 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

It doesn't say damned but not being in the same kingdom as those that kept their first estate. It seems to mean they didn't finish their preparations and were cast out of the planning session and are here among us with bodies but no plan other than to live life and have fun.

BTW JS in KFD and in other places says you cannot be a SoP w/o having had a body, a premortal spirit doesn't have the ability to be a SoP. Neither does a person that hasn't had the testimony of the HG.

So you think Satan is continuously reincarnating as a human, has no plan to live life other than to have fun...and the same with his angels ?

[simpleton]

I think we are all just around the campfire telling childish tell-tales, roasting marshmallows. But I suppose a little speculation doesn't hurt anybody.
I think some things are just what they seem. And some mysteries are in plain sight. I do not think calf's are born bad, or that children are born bad. I think that all are born innocent, and then along comes the evil one and his imps to destroy by hook or crook. And many many are weak and succumb to the evil one, even at a young age.
No, satan and his imps never received a body, hence always looking to steal one. The power of the evil one is horrendous and lethal, IF, we are not careful, humble and faithful to God. We must, needs be tried and tempted, some seemingly beyond endurance, even Christ cried out "Father Father why hast Thou forsaken Me". Yet it is necessary and requisite, if you so desire to be like Him. Easy to preach, but we should rejoice in tribulation that we are counted worthy to suffer somewhat like He did. After all, do we not want to be like Him? We can never ever become Gods, without suffering to the extreme.
So satan is absolutely necessary for us to advance. And yet he and his "third part" are without the great privilege of a body.

[Godislove]

I have stated that I don't believe the one third part from the pre-mortal council were cast down without bodies. There was a thread about this a couple years ago and claimed it was 1920's or later this doctrine was created. It set well with me and turned me around on this to believe the doctrine of 1/3 part not getting bodies is not only not correct but not scriptural.

Abraham 3: 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

It doesn't say damned but not being in the same kingdom as those that kept their first estate. It seems to mean they didn't finish their preparations and were cast out of the planning session and are here among us with bodies but no plan other than to live life and have fun.

BTW JS in KFD and in other places says you cannot be a SoP w/o having had a body, a premortal spirit doesn't have the ability to be a SoP. Neither does a person that hasn't had the testimony of the HG.

I don't believe they are here among us with bodies and I believe it is scriptural they weren't given bodies....for example Jesus sending the evil spirits into swine and the casting out of legion of spirits. There are also accounts from the early days of the church of people seeing these spirits and how badly they desire to hurt us because they don't have a body.

[Shawn Henry]

I don't believe they are here among us with bodies and I believe it is scriptural they weren't given bodies....for example Jesus sending the evil spirits into swine and the casting out of legion of spirits. There are also accounts from the early days of the church of people seeing these spirits and how badly they desire to hurt us because they don't have a body.

There are no scriptures supporting the LDS position. Your scripture doesn't even fit, because we all are spirts before birth and after death. There are always plenty of spirits in the spirit world.

[Shawn Henry]

So you think Satan is continuously reincarnating as a human, has no plan to live life other than to have fun...and the same with his angels ?

Why do you jump to what his end conclusion is? That won't invalidate his premise. Is it because you can't argue against the premise, so you have to find something else to bring down, like a strawman effect?

The scriptures start out by saying that Satan has seed when it says that enmity is placed between his seed and the seed of the woman. That should end the debate.

Isaiah says that Satan will be cast out of his grave. That means he will die a physical death.

Revelations accounting of Satan's host being cast out is after the garden of Eden.

What scriptures support your version? Since there aren't any, perhaps you could explain why you trust traditions so much.

[Godislove]

I don't believe they are here among us with bodies and I believe it is scriptural they weren't given bodies....for example Jesus sending the evil spirits into swine and the casting out of legion of spirits. There are also accounts from the early days of the church of people seeing these spirits and how badly they desire to hurt us because they don't have a body.

There are no scriptures supporting the LDS position. Your scripture doesn't even fit, because we all are spirts before birth and after death. There are always plenty of spirits in the spirit world.

Sorry but I disagree and I think those scriptures fully support the LDS position.
We know that spirits before birth dwell with Heavenly Father, not here trying to harm or posses people and spirits after death go to the spirit world. (A different realm)
Not here with Satan and his 1/3. Man people get some strange ideas.

[nightlight]

So you think Satan is continuously reincarnating as a human, has no plan to live life other than to have fun...and the same with his angels ?

Why do you jump to what his end conclusion is? That won't invalidate his premise. Is it because you can't argue against the premise, so you have to find something else to bring down, like a strawman effect?

The scriptures start out by saying that Satan has seed when it says that enmity is placed between his seed and the seed of the woman. That should end the debate.

Isaiah says that Satan will be cast out of his grave. That means he will die a physical death.

Revelations accounting of Satan's host being cast out is after the garden of Eden.

What scriptures support your version? Since there aren't any, perhaps you could explain why you trust traditions so much.

When Satan is born as a man, is he born with the light of Christ?

Edit: and I asked Duke a question. I didn't create a strawman, just a discussion. Don't be silly

[Wolfwoman]

Is it a third part or 1/3 part? There is a difference. The first idea is that there were 3 different groups. One of them having followed Lucifer. The second idea is that 1/3 of Father’s children followed Lucifer.

Groups of three, I suspect, rather than a mathematical third. This would mean none of the three parts would be of equal size to the other two.

I believe they don’t have bodies, but I could be wrong. If they have bodies then they will be resurrected and that is part of the gift of the atonement, which they rejected. I think it’s possible for them to repent though and still choose to follow the Father’s plan.

There are people with bodies who will fall. It is worth wondering if the reverse is true. They may receive a lesser estate but also be responsible for underming Satan's plan.

We know that demons periodically obtain a body, but it is someone else's. I do not think it is possible to repent while possessing another's.

I was thinking all people born on earth will be resurrected. Because they kept their first estate. But if someone didn’t keep their first estate, why would they be resurrected? I don’t know if that makes sense to you. But that was my thinking.

[Niemand]

I do not think calf's are born bad, or that children are born bad.

When I was young, my mother introduced me to the "mad or bad" legal conundrum. (NB "mad" meaning insane, not angry.) Basically whether a miscreant goes to a hospital or a prison. In some cases I think one could argue both.

But there are people who are more aggressive or have a sociopathic brain from an early age which makes them a lot more likely to become involved in evil. Some people also have an inherited propensity to addiction, which also encourages problems.

No, satan and his imps never received a body, hence always looking to steal one.

I think it is a good explanation of why they may hate those who do have one, why depressed people go to self-harm, body dysmorphia, anorexia/bulimia and those who would maim and torture others.

[TheDuke]

I noticed Brian recently referenced the concept of NPCs (videogame slang for 'empty' or computer controlled characters in a game that you exist in) in a thread and while he may have been partly kidding, I think he may have been also being partly serious (maybe I'm wrong and he was just kidding entirely). Perhaps this notion that many bodies in the world are sort of empty and serving a role as NPCs (blank slate soldiers at the command of the computer at the command of the video game) is kind of correct if this 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven perspective is true or true to an extent. This is really wild to ponder.

There is a very good explanation for NPCs. Some of those people have, or had, the potential for free agency, but instead they became followers out of fear, or ended up submitting to a routine because it was an easier course to take.

The Japanese have an idea that if you do something fifteen minutes a day, it becomes second nature. Maybe some of these NPCs learnt in childhood that it was easier not to rock the boat, and wanted the quiet life. (It's a surprisingly tempting option, and schools promote it early on.) By habit, they ended up becoming that thing.

I don't believe any life, I don't care how simple exists without a spirit/intelligences. I do NOT think this a virtual simulation. It has aspects of control like simulation but is it real in this realm and all living creatures were created spiritually and have spirits. Physical elements cannot be animated w/o spiritl

[TheDuke]

I think there are a substantial proportion who haven't had bodies and that may be a very obvious reason why they hate/envy us, and want to destroy ours.

Your idea does account for some individuals.

My initial OP was to say the opposite, not that there are not disembodied spirits but all in the council gets a body. I'm ok if you disagree, that is mainstream LDS and ok. But, I ask for scriptural references that say that is true. Even documented revelations to l later prophets will do. Do you have any? I would love to read and analyze them.

[TheDuke]

Is it a third part or 1/3 part? There is a difference. The first idea is that there were 3 different groups. One of them having followed Lucifer. The second idea is that 1/3 of Father’s children followed Lucifer.

I believe they don’t have bodies, but I could be wrong. If they have bodies then they will be resurrected and that is part of the gift of the atonement, which they rejected. I think it’s possible for them to repent though and still choose to follow the Father’s plan.

Sorry I got lazy in typing. In my typing "one third part" and "1/3 part" mean the same. The former, not 33.3333%. My bad.

[TheDuke]

Is it a third part or 1/3 part? There is a difference. The first idea is that there were 3 different groups. One of them having followed Lucifer. The second idea is that 1/3 of Father’s children followed Lucifer.

I believe they don’t have bodies, but I could be wrong. If they have bodies then they will be resurrected and that is part of the gift of the atonement, which they rejected. I think it’s possible for them to repent though and still choose to follow the Father’s plan.

Interesting point: D&C 88: 32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

Says they will be quickened but don't get a place of glory, doesn't say SoP but return to where they ame from. I suppose "quickened" means resurrected. But not the resurrection as spoken in other scriptures, something less it seems. It depends where they came from.

[TheDuke]

I have stated that I don't believe the one third part from the pre-mortal council were cast down without bodies. There was a thread about this a couple years ago and claimed it was 1920's or later this doctrine was created. It set well with me and turned me around on this to believe the doctrine of 1/3 part not getting bodies is not only not correct but not scriptural.

Abraham 3: 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

It doesn't say damned but not being in the same kingdom as those that kept their first estate. It seems to mean they didn't finish their preparations and were cast out of the planning session and are here among us with bodies but no plan other than to live life and have fun.

BTW JS in KFD and in other places says you cannot be a SoP w/o having had a body, a premortal spirit doesn't have the ability to be a SoP. Neither does a person that hasn't had the testimony of the HG.

So you think Satan is continuously reincarnating as a human, has no plan to live life other than to have fun...and the same with his angels ?

No, I don't. It seems Satan, who is Lucifer, is a celestial being or being of light already. He has a celestial form body, but no longer any glory. He wouldn't need to come to this earth to live. But it never says Satan was ever born in this creation.

My postulate here is that "his angels" are just followers here in this creation period that just want bodies and don't want to follow Christ or become like god. I don't see any real angels or unique beings, but a metaphor for those who chose to follow him and provide support, like good spirits that help in the spirit world (opposites).