One Third Part are here among us

[BigT]

What's the citation on that Isaiah verse?

Isaiah 14:11-19

That's what I thought but that's not what those passages say. That's not Satan, that is Satan's servant, the Endtime king of Babylon, the king of Assyria, the antichrist, the stout horn, etc.

It seems you are correct, according to Giliadi. Thanks, I learned yet something else new today.

https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/14

[TheDuke]

So, even though you disagree with my thought, let me just expound further as to why it might be a bit healthier than what you postulate.

If we accept that they are "among us" the natural next step is to identify them. This is called "witch-hunting."

We are far better off and the world is far better off when we examine ourselves for the evil within than trying to identify the evil without.

I know some good upstanding LDS that to this day think they are doing a great thing is supporting Brother Mitt Romney, for instance.

I wouldn't want these folks out trying to identify the third part, no thank you.

I guess I'm old school. I think the truth is was sets you free, not parables about nice stories or just allegories to bound your sentiments.

I don't think we are too judge anyone and no one is trying to identify the 1/3 part. You cannot do that as all have equal opportunity to do good. The point is that it explains why people are so vastly different, and it allows us to read ALL of the scripture verses and get truths, not focus on a very small subset. To me knowing what I now see actually sets me free. The process is beautiful, more than the LDS plan of salvation that allows a couple of million out of billions to return to god and the rest stuck for eternity in lower kingdoms. All get to progress and all came from the same place. but the real key is it allows us to believe we are literally the offspring of god, not just figuratively as must be the case if spirits are not created and we are not celestial souls.

Truthfully, however, the teachings are as they are because all most people need to know is about this simple single life; anything more complicates the simple message of the core gospel to love god and men and that is all they can accept and good for them. To really know anything about before and after, other than there is something, is irrelevant; to most that is. It isn't to me. I really want to understand as much as has been taught by the prophets, mainly Joseph Smith about the context of this mortal probation. That is really the only way to understand god and understanding god is eternal life. I feel much closer to god knowing who I am than just following the current prophet ('s teachings and doctrine), which is what I feel most (including me) do until an alternative, often even more beautiful is put forth to study. It may be accepted or rejected, but at least it is there to be discussed, vs. just following McConkie.

[Original_Intent]

So, even though you disagree with my thought, let me just expound further as to why it might be a bit healthier than what you postulate.

If we accept that they are "among us" the natural next step is to identify them. This is called "witch-hunting."

We are far better off and the world is far better off when we examine ourselves for the evil within than trying to identify the evil without.

I know some good upstanding LDS that to this day think they are doing a great thing is supporting Brother Mitt Romney, for instance.

I wouldn't want these folks out trying to identify the third part, no thank you.

I guess I'm old school. I think the truth is was sets you free, not parables about nice stories or just allegories to bound your sentiments.

I don't think we are too judge anyone and no one is trying to identify the 1/3 part. You cannot do that as all have equal opportunity to do good. The point is that it explains why people are so vastly different, and it allows us to read ALL of the scripture verses and get truths, not focus on a very small subset. To me knowing what I now see actually sets me free. The process is beautiful, more than the LDS plan of salvation that allows a couple of million out of billions to return to god and the rest stuck for eternity in lower kingdoms. All get to progress and all came from the same place. but the real key is it allows us to believe we are literally the offspring of god, not just figuratively as must be the case if spirits are not created and we are not celestial souls.

Truthfully, however, the teachings are as they are because all most people need to know is about this simple single life; anything more complicates the simple message of the core gospel to love god and men and that is all they can accept and good for them. To really know anything about before and after, other than there is something, is irrelevant; to most that is. It isn't to me. I really want to understand as much as has been taught by the prophets, mainly Joseph Smith about the context of this mortal probation. That is really the only way to understand god and understanding god is eternal life. I feel much closer to god knowing who I am than just following the current prophet ('s teachings and doctrine), which is what I feel most (including me) do until an alternative, often even more beautiful is put forth to study. It may be accepted or rejected, but at least it is there to be discussed, vs. just following McConkie.

I guess Christ wasn't old school enough for you, since he often taught in parables. Few learn the truth when it is laid before them in plainness, it is difficult to teach someone that they have been fooled.

[nightlight]

All men are born with the Spirit of Christ in them

[Fred]

I think we are all just around the campfire telling childish tell-tales, roasting marshmallows. But I suppose a little speculation doesn't hurt anybody.
I think some things are just what they seem. And some mysteries are in plain sight. I do not think calf's are born bad, or that children are born bad. I think that all are born innocent, and then along comes the evil one and his imps to destroy by hook or crook. And many many are weak and succumb to the evil one, even at a young age.
No, satan and his imps never received a body, hence always looking to steal one. The power of the evil one is horrendous and lethal, IF, we are not careful, humble and faithful to God. We must, needs be tried and tempted, some seemingly beyond endurance, even Christ cried out "Father Father why hast Thou forsaken Me". Yet it is necessary and requisite, if you so desire to be like Him. Easy to preach, but we should rejoice in tribulation that we are counted worthy to suffer somewhat like He did. After all, do we not want to be like Him? We can never ever become Gods, without suffering to the extreme.
So satan is absolutely necessary for us to advance. And yet he and his "third part" are without the great privilege of a body.

How do you explain anyone becoming a democrat, socialist, communist, or any other faction based on Luciferian principles? If they were not born with an evil spirit, or at least one sympathetic to Lucifer's plan, you think that they are simply incredibly stupid and have an extreme hatred for freedom? Then when satan whispered in their ear, they realized their calling as a Luciferian?

Or just how is it that they appreciate the benefits of killing unborn children, gun control, labor unions, property taxes, willingly giving up freedom for ones own good, or any other left leaning mantra, all of which are pure evil?

Some people just have an appreciation for satan? Maybe having second thoughts about not getting kicked out? Or they are following satan just as they planned when they accepted God's freedom to follow Lucifer with a body?

All of us can repent, but all of us are the belief system of our spirits. Bodies are born without a belief system. We are our spirits. Our spirits are the real us.

Or do you think that a righteous spirit will follow satan?

[ransomme]

Isaiah 14:11-19

That's what I thought but that's not what those passages say. That's not Satan, that is Satan's servant, the Endtime king of Babylon, the king of Assyria, the antichrist, the stout horn, etc.

It seems you are correct, according to Giliadi. Thanks, I learned yet something else new today.

https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/14

Right on!

Yeah before I looked at the Isaiah institute I just did a Citation Index search. Then I read the chapter. Immediately what stuck out to me was all the word links to Daniel, Matthew, Revelation, and other Endtime prophecies, especially this:

Isaiah 14
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

My first thought was ..
2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Daniel 7:20-22
20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and concerning the other horn, which came up and to make room for which three of them fell out—the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke arrogantly, and that seemed greater than the others. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the holy ones and was prevailing over them, 22 until the Ancient One came; then judgment was given for the holy ones of the Most High, and the time arrived when the holy ones gained possession of the kingdom.

Revelation 13:1-10
5 The beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. It was given authority over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.[c]
9 Let anyone who has an ear listen:
10 If you are to be taken captive, into captivity you go;
if you kill with the sword,with the sword you must be killed.

[simpleton]

I think we are all just around the campfire telling childish tell-tales, roasting marshmallows. But I suppose a little speculation doesn't hurt anybody.
I think some things are just what they seem. And some mysteries are in plain sight. I do not think calf's are born bad, or that children are born bad. I think that all are born innocent, and then along comes the evil one and his imps to destroy by hook or crook. And many many are weak and succumb to the evil one, even at a young age.
No, satan and his imps never received a body, hence always looking to steal one. The power of the evil one is horrendous and lethal, IF, we are not careful, humble and faithful to God. We must, needs be tried and tempted, some seemingly beyond endurance, even Christ cried out "Father Father why hast Thou forsaken Me". Yet it is necessary and requisite, if you so desire to be like Him. Easy to preach, but we should rejoice in tribulation that we are counted worthy to suffer somewhat like He did. After all, do we not want to be like Him? We can never ever become Gods, without suffering to the extreme.
So satan is absolutely necessary for us to advance. And yet he and his "third part" are without the great privilege of a body.

How do you explain anyone becoming a democrat, socialist, communist, or any other faction based on Luciferian principles? If they were not born with an evil spirit, or at least one sympathetic to Lucifer's plan, you think that they are simply incredibly stupid and have an extreme hatred for freedom? Then when satan whispered in their ear, they realized their calling as a Luciferian?

Or just how is it that they appreciate the benefits of killing unborn children, gun control, labor unions, property taxes, willingly giving up freedom for ones own good, or any other left leaning mantra, all of which are pure evil?

Some people just have an appreciation for satan? Maybe having second thoughts about not getting kicked out? Or they are following satan just as they planned when they accepted God's freedom to follow Lucifer with a body?

All of us can repent, but all of us are the belief system of our spirits. Bodies are born without a belief system. We are our spirits. Our spirits are the real us.

Or do you think that a righteous spirit will follow satan?

False traditions of the parents is probably one of the biggest contributing factors.
And beings we never had a body of flesh before, between temptations of the flesh and learning or trying to over come the flesh, it seems satan gains great power.

"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient" ...

"Putting off the natural man", is what most of us parents do not do. It seems that most of society's parents indulge in the lusts of the flesh and teach our children accordingly.

[BigT]

War in Heaven

From the LDS Bible Dictionary:

“This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14:12–20; Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:4–13; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37; see also Rev. 12:9; Abr. 3:24–28).”

I believe this has been pointed out in this thread; none of the 3 scriptures cited at the end of the quote say anything about Satan and his crew being cast out as spirits only, that they didn’t get to have a mortal body.

JST Revelations 1
1 The Revelation of John, a servant of God, which was given unto him of Jesus Christ, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass, that he sent and signified by his angel unto his servant John,

The Book of Revelations is not about the past, it’s about the future.

JST Revelation 12

This chapter was expanded and rearranged a bit when Joseph “retranslated” it.

The first 5 verses talk about Satan battling with and being victorious over the church Christ established while on earth.

Verse 5:
“And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.”

Joseph changed “days” in KJV to “years.”

Thus:

“We are informed by the renowned historian, Whelpley, as also in the Revolutions of Europe, that the church of Jesus Christ was overrun, and driven into the wilderness, A. D. 570, and John the Revelator informs us it must remain there 1260 years, which makes exactly the time, the year 1830, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, with the gifts and blessings.”
Times and Seasons Vol 5 p. 732
Nov 2, 1844

(I believe Joseph Smith was the editor of the T & S then. Could be wrong.)

This leads us right into verse 6:

6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;

7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

Again, nothing about being cast out without bodies.

Lots of scriptures have breaks in timelines, so I may be looking at this too literally. But, here’s the timeline I see here:

- Dragon defeats the Church of God ~570 A.D.
- Church remains in the wilderness for 1,260 years, until 1830
- The war in heaven occurs
- The Dragon loses against Michael, the woman (the church of God), and the child (the kingdom of our God and his Christ)
- The great dragon’s gotta go as he has no place in heaven anymore so he and his angels are cast “into” the earth. (Why choose “into” the earth? Is there something to that?)

Now everyone is jumping up and down and shouting, “NO! The war in heaven was in the pre-existence! It says that in Abraham!”

Abraham 3
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

It says Lucifer got angry and many followed him. I believe these are the sons of perdition. Likely all of them, but another topic for another day.

And it says Lucifer “kept not his first estate,” which I wrote about in my first post. I believe the first estate begins with birth. Which brings me to the next point:

When was Satan thrust down to Earth?

In addition to Revelations 12, let’s look at some other evidences.

Job 2
1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

“Sons of God” refers to a heavenly council, or “Council of the gods.” Likely the Lord God and some important angels some refer to as “gods” with a lower case “g.”

So there’s a council of important people, including the Lord God, and Satan walks in and says he’s been down on the earth, checking things out.

What’s Satan doing in heaven if he and his minions got kicked out in the pre-existence?

Yes, some don’t believe the Book of Job is real, or something, but you’re on thin ice if you don’t as the Lord references Job in D&C 121.

Luke 10
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

What time period is the Savior talking about when he saw Satan fall from heaven? It doesn’t say, but we know the choices are past, present, or future. If we add it to my reading of Revelations 12, it would be a second indication that Satan was cast out about the time the Later-day church of God was established, circa 1830.

In summary for the war in heaven:

It most assuredly began in the pre-existence, according to Abraham 3, and continues to rage today. We’re in the thick of it right now as Satan’s side seeks to enslave the nations; exactly what he proposed to do at the beginning.

I think everyone must be born into this world, including Satan and his angels. I have no knowledge of anyone claiming to know when Satan was born. I was going to use the scripture in Isaiah 14 about Satan being cast out of his grave as proof he would at some point die a physical death, but ransomme said it referred to the king of end-time Assyria who God will use to punish the wicked. That’s what Gilliadi says. But after reading some non-LDS commentaries, I think it’s highly likely to be a dual-fulfillment-type thing, as so much of (all?) Isaiah is. So, it’s possible it does indicate Satan himself will be thrust out of his grave, but it’s not good evidence Satan has or will be born and therefore die a physical death.

I think the discussion of the “seed” of Satan in this thread has merit. Aside from what’s been written here for and against the idea, we know the Luciferians and all their underlings are hyper-vigilant about their bloodlines, particularly about knowing who those people are and preserving the bloodline. And then there’s LDS Inc with its own obsession about “family trees,” or bloodlines…

Evil spirits, demons, devils, etc.

It’s clear that the Lord, his true apostles, and others with the Melchizedek Priesthood have cast out “devils” or “evil spirits.” This was used in this thread to “prove” that Satan and his angels didn’t get bodies. But it’s not proof of that at all. It just proves there are evil spirits/beings.

But what are these evil beings? I’m sure others here know far more about this that I, and hopefully they will chime in, but here are some possibilities.

- They are the disembodied spirits of sons of perdition who have already received their bodies and then died. There could be millions of them. I can think of 2 reasons for why God would allow them to roam around possessing people currently in their first estate: 1) To provide opposition; 2) Perhaps they’re too wicked for even spirit prison. Or, along those lines perhaps spirit prison is here on earth, so they’d be all around us.

- I think it’s possible for there to be some class of spirit that wasn’t part of the intelligences God found in the universe and organized, then fashioned this earth as their first estate.

- Perhaps sons of perdition who haven’t yet received their body are allowed to pester us, again for opposition. Who knows?

Apparently the Lord has chosen not to reveal the details surrounding these topics, likely for good reason. I’ll bet any here who are alive when the Lord does his “strange act” will likely learn the truth. It’s probably written about somewhere, or all through, the many scriptures to come forth, when the Gentiles repent.

[Fred]

War in Heaven

From the LDS Bible Dictionary:

“This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14:12–20; Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:4–13; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37; see also Rev. 12:9; Abr. 3:24–28).”

I believe this has been pointed out in this thread; none of the 3 scriptures cited at the end of the quote say anything about Satan and his crew being cast out as spirits only, that they didn’t get to have a mortal body.

JST Revelations 1
1 The Revelation of John, a servant of God, which was given unto him of Jesus Christ, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass, that he sent and signified by his angel unto his servant John,

The Book of Revelations is not about the past, it’s about the future.

JST Revelation 12

This chapter was expanded and rearranged a bit when Joseph “retranslated” it.

The first 5 verses talk about Satan battling with and being victorious over the church Christ established while on earth.

Verse 5:
“And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.”

Joseph changed “days” in KJV to “years.”

Thus:

“We are informed by the renowned historian, Whelpley, as also in the Revolutions of Europe, that the church of Jesus Christ was overrun, and driven into the wilderness, A. D. 570, and John the Revelator informs us it must remain there 1260 years, which makes exactly the time, the year 1830, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, with the gifts and blessings.”
Times and Seasons Vol 5 p. 732
Nov 2, 1844

(I believe Joseph Smith was the editor of the T & S then. Could be wrong.)

This leads us right into verse 6:

6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;

7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

Again, nothing about being cast out without bodies.

Lots of scriptures have breaks in timelines, so I may be looking at this too literally. But, here’s the timeline I see here:

- Dragon defeats the Church of God ~570 A.D.
- Church remains in the wilderness for 1,260 years, until 1830
- The war in heaven occurs
- The Dragon loses against Michael, the woman (the church of God), and the child (the kingdom of our God and his Christ)
- The great dragon’s gotta go as he has no place in heaven anymore so he and his angels are cast “into” the earth. (Why choose “into” the earth? Is there something to that?)

Now everyone is jumping up and down and shouting, “NO! The war in heaven was in the pre-existence! It says that in Abraham!”

Abraham 3
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

It says Lucifer got angry and many followed him. I believe these are the sons of perdition. Likely all of them, but another topic for another day.

And it says Lucifer “kept not his first estate,” which I wrote about in my first post. I believe the first estate begins with birth. Which brings me to the next point:

When was Satan thrust down to Earth?

In addition to Revelations 12, let’s look at some other evidences.

Job 2
1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

“Sons of God” refers to a heavenly council, or “Council of the gods.” Likely the Lord God and some important angels some refer to as “gods” with a lower case “g.”

So there’s a council of important people, including the Lord God, and Satan walks in and says he’s been down on the earth, checking things out.

What’s Satan doing in heaven if he and his minions got kicked out in the pre-existence?

Yes, some don’t believe the Book of Job is real, or something, but you’re on thin ice if you don’t as the Lord references Job in D&C 121.

Luke 10
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

What time period is the Savior talking about when he saw Satan fall from heaven? It doesn’t say, but we know the choices are past, present, or future. If we add it to my reading of Revelations 12, it would be a second indication that Satan was cast out about the time the Later-day church of God was established, circa 1830.

In summary for the war in heaven:

It most assuredly began in the pre-existence, according to Abraham 3, and continues to rage today. We’re in the thick of it right now as Satan’s side seeks to enslave the nations; exactly what he proposed to do at the beginning.

I think everyone must be born into this world, including Satan and his angels. I have no knowledge of anyone claiming to know when Satan was born. I was going to use the scripture in Isaiah 14 about Satan being cast out of his grave as proof he would at some point die a physical death, but ransomme said it referred to the king of end-time Assyria who God will use to punish the wicked. That’s what Gilliadi says. But after reading some non-LDS commentaries, I think it’s highly likely to be a dual-fulfillment-type thing, as so much of (all?) Isaiah is. So, it’s possible it does indicate Satan himself will be thrust out of his grave, but it’s not good evidence Satan has or will be born and therefore die a physical death.

I think the discussion of the “seed” of Satan in this thread has merit. Aside from what’s been written here for and against the idea, we know the Luciferians and all their underlings are hyper-vigilant about their bloodlines, particularly about knowing who those people are and preserving the bloodline. And then there’s LDS Inc with its own obsession about “family trees,” or bloodlines…

Evil spirits, demons, devils, etc.

It’s clear that the Lord, his true apostles, and others with the Melchizedek Priesthood have cast out “devils” or “evil spirits.” This was used in this thread to “prove” that Satan and his angels didn’t get bodies. But it’s not proof of that at all. It just proves there are evil spirits/beings.

But what are these evil beings? I’m sure others here know far more about this that I, and hopefully they will chime in, but here are some possibilities.

- They are the disembodied spirits of sons of perdition who have already received their bodies and then died. There could be millions of them. I can think of 2 reasons for why God would allow them to roam around possessing people currently in their first estate: 1) To provide opposition; 2) Perhaps they’re too wicked for even spirit prison. Or, along those lines perhaps spirit prison is here on earth, so they’d be all around us.

- I think it’s possible for there to be some class of spirit that wasn’t part of the intelligences God found in the universe and organized, then fashioned this earth as their first estate.

- Perhaps sons of perdition who haven’t yet received their body are allowed to pester us, again for opposition. Who knows?

Apparently the Lord has chosen not to reveal the details surrounding these topics, likely for good reason. I’ll bet any here who are alive when the Lord does his “strange act” will likely learn the truth. It’s probably written about somewhere, or all through, the many scriptures to come forth, when the Gentiles repent.

That sure is a lot to think about. Indicating that a third part followed Lucifer in the kick out, means that there absolutely was, without question, three parts. There are always three parts to everything. Positive, neutral, negative. Left, center, right. Up, middle, down. etc. The war in heaven had evil, undecided, Christlike. The evil got kicked out. The followers of Christ was only a third part. The undecided had to make a decision. The whole purpose of which was to be proven. One third part really liked Lucifer's plan, but not enough to get kicked out. Fortunately for them, God's plan gave them the freedom to choose to follow Lucifer with a body. Those are the Luciferians with bodies that are currently plentiful on this earth.

[Shawn Henry]

What's the citation on that Isaiah verse?

Isaiah 14

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

[Shawn Henry]

and god could raise up "see" to Abraham from the rocks? Not always is "seed" literal. mustard seed, Gal 3:16 baptized equals seed of Abraham; 1 Peter 1:23 - corruptible seed; 1 John 3:9 being born again becomes an incorruptible seed................ I could go on, but these are all "figurative" uses of the word "seed" in the bible alone.

Obviously, it can be used figuratively, but why use it twice in the same sentence in a comparison if the first time is figurative and the second literal? That's a terrible comparison, in my opinion, but I could be wrong.

[Shawn Henry]

I have 2 stuck together toes, does that make me not in the image of God? True story. But people have been known to be born with all sorts of abnormalities and giants aren't the only ones that choose cannibalism. Could they have been under some sort of curse by God though?? possibly....just like some were cursed with darkskin, idleness and warlike tendencies.
A 'place to discard objects' is actually an accepted definition of grave and Isaiah lived a long time ago so that could very well be his intended meaning.

That's funny, my sister had two toes stuck together. I have two on each foot that are webbed half way up.

Abnormalities are different though. Two rows of teeth on each jaw among the entire species is not in the image of God, in my opinion. Centaurs and Satyrs and whatever else the transhumanists in the past have created are spirited by those who follow Christ.

[Shawn Henry]

We are far better off and the world is far better off when we examine ourselves for the evil within than trying to identify the evil without.

True followers don't really get to pick, since we are commanded to fight against both. The scriptures teach us to fight the natural man within and they teach us identify and fight the secret combinations without.

Some of the greatest condemnation is reserved for those who allowed these satanists to go unchecked and who sat idly by as our children are sacrificed.

[Original_Intent]

We are far better off and the world is far better off when we examine ourselves for the evil within than trying to identify the evil without.

True followers don't really get to pick, since we are commanded to fight against both. The scriptures teach us to fight the natural man within and they teach us identify and fight the secret combinations without.

Some of the greatest condemnation is reserved for those who allowed these satanists to go unchecked and who sat idly by as our children are sacrificed.

I agree. I was thinking more about fault finding with individuals, of course we should identify and fight against the secret combinations.

Speaking of which, I have seen some very convincing material that the beast in Revelation is the Roman Catholic church. So I guess McConkie was probably right after all.

[Shawn Henry]

That's what I thought but that's not what those passages say. That's not Satan, that is Satan's servant, the Endtime king of Babylon, the king of Assyria, the antichrist, the stout horn, etc.

Verse 4 does address the King of Babylon (still possibly Satan incarnate), but verse 12 transitions to Lucifer. Verse 18 says all the kings of the earth will lie in glory, which presumably would include the king of Babylon, if he is a mortal king, but there is only one who is cast out of his grave.

[Shawn Henry]

Speaking of which, I have seen some very convincing material that the beast in Revelation is the Roman Catholic church. So I guess McConkie was probably right after all.

Sounds like a good thread to start. I personally think it is government, but we'll see.

[Shawn Henry]

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, can we agree that he is already a son of perdition. He comes into this world as a son of perdition, meaning he has previously been tried and convicted by judgement. What mortals are already convicted without a judgement bar? Those who have done this plan of salvation thing once before. ???

[Shawn Henry]

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

The second estate, then, is the time between the restoration and when we are changed in the “twinkling of an eye,” sometime during the Millennium.

Two points from the scripture BigT posted.

1.We have a match here of the 3 parts. The first part is those you will keep their second estate, the second part is those who keep their first estate, and the third part (satan's part) do not keep their first estate.

2.An estate is your material body. All three have this in common. They all experience an estate or mortality. You can't 'not keep' your estate if you have never had one. Obviously, if you don't get to keep something, it is something you once had.

[Godislove]

I have 2 stuck together toes, does that make me not in the image of God? True story. But people have been known to be born with all sorts of abnormalities and giants aren't the only ones that choose cannibalism. Could they have been under some sort of curse by God though?? possibly....just like some were cursed with darkskin, idleness and warlike tendencies.
A 'place to discard objects' is actually an accepted definition of grave and Isaiah lived a long time ago so that could very well be his intended meaning.

That's funny, my sister had two toes stuck together. I have two on each foot that are webbed half way up.

Abnormalities are different though. Two rows of teeth on each jaw among the entire species is not in the image of God, in my opinion. Centaurs and Satyrs and whatever else the transhumanists in the past have created are spirited by those who follow Christ.

Haha! At least we all might be faster swimmers.
I believe the giant race was a cursed race but not the 1/3. I realize this scripture isn't directly pointing to the race of giants but I believe it's definitely a clue.

Moses 7: 15 And the giants of the land, also, stood afar off; and there went forth a curse upon all people that fought against God;

[BigT]

But do you think that perhaps our second estate could occur through something like passing into the "second veil" (Heb. 9:3) or the second comforter. I wonder if this process of sanctification could bring material changes while we're still in the flesh?

Alma 13
5 in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren
6 being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God
7 which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years
8 they were ordained after this manner
9 thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years
11 therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

D&C 84
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

D&C 88
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

So, the second estate could begin, or end, with say, having your calling and election made sure? It seems to me the second estate would need to start in a similar way as the first, to be called the “second.” Restoration (redemption?) seems very similar to the beginning of the first estate as body is united with spirit, for the first time in the first and for the second time in the second. Wouldn’t having your calling and election made sure be the same as keeping your second estate? Except you achieve that status before you leave your first estate.

Or I could be over complicating things.

[ransomme]

That's what I thought but that's not what those passages say. That's not Satan, that is Satan's servant, the Endtime king of Babylon, the king of Assyria, the antichrist, the stout horn, etc.

Verse 4 does address the King of Babylon (still possibly Satan incarnate), but verse 12 transitions to Lucifer. Verse 18 says all the kings of the earth will lie in glory, which presumably would include the king of Babylon, if he is a mortal king, but there is only one who is cast out of his grave.

It's the same archetype trap that people fall into not being able the see the Endtime servant. They think everything is only talking about Christ and don't see the Endtime Davidic King.

The parallel is between the servant and the antichrist, the Davidic King and the Arch Tyrant.

The antichrist bears the name of Lucifer just like the chosen bear the name of YHVH/Yeshua.

All those verses match up with Daniel, and Revelation, and elsewhere when the speak about the antichrist.

[BigT]

Good post. But what really is Abraham talking about for the first and second estate? It isn't real estate or defined in Webster's. The first estate is reference to the pre-mortal council. I think we all accept that. And keeping the first estate is to follow Christ and not Satan.

Maybe we all accept that because we’ve been taught it all ours lives.

The place I disagree with current LDS teachings (not really doctrine) is what it means to not keep their first estate. LDS says they are cast out and are SoP. but that is not what the scriptures say. Abraham 3:26 ...and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate.... So, it clearly says they will not have the same kingdom. but it does not say they are SoP or that they have "no kingdom", or no bodies. It just says they will merit less than those that stay with Christ's plan in the council. I personally see it that they got the boot from the planning or "spiritual creation" phase and get what they get, which will not put them where they could have been.

Not sure how Satan was able to saunter into the council of the gods in Job if he’d been booted out in the pre-existence, or how John seems to say the war in heaven actually occurred after 1830.

Further, in D&C 88: 32 it says ...they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.... So, we see they go back where they came from! Obviously not heaven. And not SoP as they were not SoP before the planning council. It also does not say they don't get a body here. It says the will be resurrected "quickened", which means they MUST have had a body here, how else could they be resurrected?

I think this is a good catch. Quickened does indicate resurrection here, to me. But, go back where they came from WHEN? I think where they came from right before being quickened. Likely some deep dark place, like hell.

What is the second estate? It is this earth life. So, if you keep this earth life; that is do what you needed to do or planned to do; then you keep progressing Abraham verse continued .....they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever..... So, who doesn't get glory added? The SoP for sure. But Joseph in D&C 88 clearly says even the Telestial is added glory; so only the SoP are those that kept not their first estate; along with any others that don't merit Telestial per D&C 88. LDS doesn't discuss the group of those who kept not their second estate, yet are not SoP and are returned to where they came from. Show me any teachings here. I found none. I don't think they know. But we can see they came from some where not celestial and return to not a kingdom of glory. Hence, they could not have been in the council in the celestial, and the council was in heaven but not the celestial.

I expressed my views for the second estate in the post, as best I can. The scriptures don’t really say when it starts or ends. Abraham doesn’t. It just says if you keep it, you are added upon. To me, the second estate should be similar to the first in that it starts when spirit is joined with matter/body. That happens when we are restored in the Millennium. I could be wrong as, again, the scriptures aren’t clear.

Not sure how the millennium discussion fits here? Can you follow up on how it fits with the 1/3 part? Perhaps I'm a bit dense or too focused elsewhere.

Duke, see my answers in bold above.

[Dusty Wanderer]

But do you think that perhaps our second estate could occur through something like passing into the "second veil" (Heb. 9:3) or the second comforter. I wonder if this process of sanctification could bring material changes while we're still in the flesh?

Alma 13
5 in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren
6 being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God
7 which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years
8 they were ordained after this manner
9 thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years
11 therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

D&C 84
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

D&C 88
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

So, the second estate could begin, or end, with say, having your calling and election made sure? It seems to me the second estate would need to start in a similar way as the first, to be called the “second.” Restoration (redemption?) seems very similar to the beginning of the first estate as body is united with spirit, for the first time in the first and for the second time in the second. Wouldn’t having your calling and election made sure be the same as keeping your second estate? Except you achieve that status before you leave your first estate.

Or I could be over complicating things.

Honestly, I’m not sure. Good questions, but I wish I had more answer — still sorting things out.

A few things about imagery that I just can’t get around: reborn, becoming a new creature, etc all as we receive the Holy Spirit in greater and greater abundance until the perfect day. Becoming a son of God and His holy order.

That same Spirit that raises us from the dead (resurrection), just as it did with Jesus, “quickens” our mortal bodies, as it dwells in us (cf. Romans 8:11).

[Dusty Wanderer]

2.An estate is your material body. All three have this in common. They all experience an estate or mortality. You can't 'not keep' your estate if you have never had one. Obviously, if you don't get to keep something, it is something you once had.

Challenging my own position with this too, but, if Joseph said, “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter but is more fine or pure and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We can’t see it but when bodies are purified we shall see it is all matter”, then in that context, the creation of our spirits could be our first estate, no?

[Shawn Henry]

2.An estate is your material body. All three have this in common. They all experience an estate or mortality. You can't 'not keep' your estate if you have never had one. Obviously, if you don't get to keep something, it is something you once had.

Challenging my own position too with this too, but, if Joseph said, “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter but is more fine or pure and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We can’t see it but when bodies are purified we shall see it is all matter”, then in that context, the creation of our spirits could be our first estate, no?

It is definitely possible, but I don't think it is probable. That would mean they don't keep their spirit bodies.