One Third Part are here among us

[Shawn Henry]

to live twice in the flesh on the earth, once in a state of probation; and once in a state of approbation, ...

Thoughts?

I had never read anything like that, that two time probation and approbation deal. I mean MMP is one thing, but this is different.

It's a reference to being restored to the flesh. We have to be back in mortality before we can be raised from mortality to immortality. We are not raised from spirit to immorality. The whole House of Israel is restored to the flesh and is given lands of inheritance (Ezekiel's dry bones). This is why the Lord will have to identify more Stakes of Zion, outside of the few he has already revealed, because it is the whole House of Israel coming back in the flesh.

Why would we given lands of inheritance if not to live in them. That's living twice in the flesh.

[Shawn Henry]

[I don't find any value in 129 personally, but to say it is from BY, please provide evidence Shawn. Looking at the JSP it is pretty clear there are documented listeners from 1843 when BY was out of town. Now the actual words were written at times from 43-45 but in Clayton's handwriting. Wasn't BY's matra in Nauvoo to use him to write words. If you're claiming it is form 1850's or later in SLC, then it doesn't fit the handwriting! What is your specific claim here? You just don't like it or what? (BTW on this thread I'm still trying to see where angels and spirits fit? I guess as many see them as the one third doing this full time on this earth?)

I didn't mean to imply he wrote it. I simply mean that he owns the 1876 addition of the D&C. He was not involved in the revelatory process, and it is thereby not his business to declare these sections as canon. He can't witness for them because he didn't receive them, nor is there a revelation from God stating he is to be a witness. He couldn't be a witness anyway, at least not in 1876, because witnesses are provided at the establishment of a word not decades after the establishment. Scribes at the time did indeed make claims of what Joseph taught, but that doesn't make their business either to say what doctrine is. They are only legal witnesses, not spiritual witnesses. Spiritual witnesses receive some sort of divine manifestation, like the 3 witnesses seeing an angel.

[TheDuke]

to live twice in the flesh on the earth, once in a state of probation; and once in a state of approbation, ...

Thoughts?

I had never read anything like that, that two time probation and approbation deal. I mean MMP is one thing, but this is different.

It's a reference to being restored to the flesh. We have to be back in mortality before we can be raised from mortality to immortality. We are not raised from spirit to immorality. The whole House of Israel is restored to the flesh and is given lands of inheritance (Ezekiel's dry bones). This is why the Lord will have to identify more Stakes of Zion, outside of the few he has already revealed, because it is the whole House of Israel coming back in the flesh.

Why would we given lands of inheritance if not to live in them. That's living twice in the flesh.

Wow I disagree fully it never says anywhere we will come here in telestial then get another type of body

[TheDuke]

[I don't find any value in 129 personally, but to say it is from BY, please provide evidence Shawn. Looking at the JSP it is pretty clear there are documented listeners from 1843 when BY was out of town. Now the actual words were written at times from 43-45 but in Clayton's handwriting. Wasn't BY's matra in Nauvoo to use him to write words. If you're claiming it is form 1850's or later in SLC, then it doesn't fit the handwriting! What is your specific claim here? You just don't like it or what? (BTW on this thread I'm still trying to see where angels and spirits fit? I guess as many see them as the one third doing this full time on this earth?)

I didn't mean to imply he wrote it. I simply mean that he owns the 1876 addition of the D&C. He was not involved in the revelatory process, and it is thereby not his business to declare these sections as canon. He can't witness for them because he didn't receive them, nor is there a revelation from God stating he is to be a witness. He couldn't be a witness anyway, at least not in 1876, because witnesses are provided at the establishment of a word not decades after the establishment. Scribes at the time did indeed make claims of what Joseph taught, but that doesn't make their business either to say what doctrine is. They are only legal witnesses, not spiritual witnesses. Spiritual witnesses receive some sort of divine manifestation, like the 3 witnesses seeing an angel.

Not true any leader can declare canon seldom seems to be done by the original revelator

[Shawn Henry]

Wow I disagree fully it never says anywhere we will come here in telestial then get another type of body

I never said anything about telestial. What are you talking about?

2 Ne 10:7

But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.

[TheDuke]

Wow I disagree fully it never says anywhere we will come here in telestial then get another type of body

I never said anything about telestial. What are you talking about?

2 Ne 10:7

But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.

Red herring. That is a societal promise not individual restoration

[Shawn Henry]

Not true any leader can declare canon seldom seems to be done by the original revelator

Any leader? Did you mean any prophet?

Any prophet can declare doctrine, but it has to be by the Lord's prescribed pattern to do so. The Lord gave a specific revelation to the church declaring that Joseph would receive such revelations. He also provides witnesses to that prophet, for example, Sidney Rigdon receiving revelations jointly with Joseph.

BY has no endorsement from the Lord to receive revelations. He did not come in at the gate according to section 43 and no one was ever called to witness for him.

The 1876 D&C has no witnesses for it. The originator of the supposed revelations rejected them from the 1844 D&C.

If it is not done by the original revelator, then it fails the Law of Witnesses. You act like I'm the one saying the witnesses have to be at the establishment. It's the Lord who has repeated this throughout scripture, not me.

[Shawn Henry]

Wow I disagree fully it never says anywhere we will come here in telestial then get another type of body

I never said anything about telestial. What are you talking about?

2 Ne 10:7

But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.

Red herring. That is a societal promise not individual restoration

Right. That society is the House of Israel. Those who have met his "approbation".

Why would only some of the House of Israel be restored to their flesh. All worthy members, no matter when they lived, will be restored to life and receive an inheritance in the promised land. That's the covenant God made with them.

[TheDuke]

I never said anything about telestial. What are you talking about?

2 Ne 10:7

But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.

Red herring. That is a societal promise not individual restoration

Right. That society is the House of Israel. Those who have met his "approbation".

Why would only some of the House of Israel be restored to their flesh. All worthy members, no matter when they lived, will be restored to life and receive an inheritance in the promised land. That's the covenant God made with them.

So to be clear when Jesus says Israel it is his followers not genealogy, so all are worthy.

However ancient prophets use Israel as a nation and lineage where many are unworthy of celestial. Still this verse is about future lineage obtaining their earthly inheritance

[Shawn Henry]

this verse is about future lineage obtaining their earthly inheritance

No it's not! It doesn't say they restored to their lands of inheritance. It says they are restored IN THE FLESH.

They first are restored to flesh, then once in the flesh they are given lands of inheritance.

God did not make a covenant with Israel that some future generation would get the promised land. His promise is that they would one day be the ones to be given that land.

[Shawn Henry]

How plain is the language! Restored in the flesh, upon the earth.

If they are restored upon the earth, it means they are no longer upon the earth.

[TheDuke]

this verse is about future lineage obtaining their earthly inheritance

No it's not! It doesn't say they restored to their lands of inheritance. It says they are restored IN THE FLESH.

They first are restored to flesh, then once in the flesh they are given lands of inheritance.

God did not make a covenant with Israel that some future generation would get the promised land. His promise is that they would one day be the ones to be given that land.

Yes he did. In the flesh here means “on the earth “ never talks about resurrection

[Shawn Henry]

Yes he did. In the flesh here means “on the earth “ never talks about resurrection

Restoration to the flesh is prior to resurrection.

Resurrection is being raised from mortality to immortality, not from spirit to immortality. You can't be resurrected until you are restored to the flesh. Once restored to mortality, then resurrection is possible.

How else do you get restored to the flesh on the earth?

But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.

The Lord covenanted with their fathers that they, those very fathers, would be restored in the flesh upon the earth.

I'm really baffled that you are saying restored in the flesh doesn't mean restored in the flesh.

In order to be restored to the flesh, you can't be already in the flesh. To be restored to the earth, you can't already be on the earth.

[Silver Pie]

So, fair is fair, right. You can't find in scripture that they don't get bodies, but yet you also can't find in scripture a heavenly mother, but you just referenced her. Perhaps a more ubiquitous application is in order. I don't know.

You should listen to some of Margaret Barker's talks. She was a Methodist minister who studied the scriptures extensively. The first time I heard her speak on the Mother God (we call her Heavenly Mother) and the evidences in the Old Testament, I was blown away. She's on YouTube (sadly, she died a few years ago, so is not putting out any more talks). Wisdom. That's a word to look for in the Old Testament when seeking evidence for the Mother God. Wisdom's children. Sorry, no references at my fingertips. Anyway, she was quite eye-opening.

[Silver Pie]

When I saw this thread had 7 pages, I thought it could be because two people were arguing/fighting for several pages. I was pleasantly surprised. Even though there are disagreements, the thread is not only civil, but gave me a lot to think about. Some of you brought up points I'd never heard of before. It gave me a glimpse that there is a lot we don't know; a lot that might blow us away if dumped on us all at once.




On a side note, I'm going to do a BeNotDeceived. I noticed Nieman's post count and found it fascinating (he no longer has that count, but this is what it was when I took the screenshot as I was reading this thread today).

Untitled.jpg (47.17 KiB) Viewed 92 times

[BigT]

Couldn’t decide what post to quote, but we have to consider the scriptures, this one in particular, when thinking about the “Grand Council in heaven” and what we’ve been taught by the apostate church about our first estate:

Moses 7:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

Man did not have agency in the preexistence so how could he/we have “voted” for Christ’s plan—and as for that, he was the “Only Begotton” from the beginning, which is before the “Grand Council,” so there really couldn’t have been a “vote” like we’ve been taught? To vote on something you have to have agency, or freedom to pick or the other.

[zionbuilder]

The Duke....sorry I'm not computer savvy. Or I would quote what you had said earlier that I meant to comment on. You had said there is no reference to different glories within the book of Mormon, but I would refer you to this scripture

3 Nephi 28 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom. 3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall COME UNTO ME IN MY KINGDOM; and with me ye shall find rest. 4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father? 5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired. 6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me. 7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven. 8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall YE BE BLESSED IN THE KINGDOM OF MY FATHER.


Two different kingdoms are mentioned and two different glories attained. Just some food for thought.

[Thinker]

…Now one reminder, I said "truth" and what is truth? It is what we are here to gain, not abstract notions. Truth is "the knowledge of ....." not the facts but the knowledge or comprehension or understanding of things/facts of past, present and future. The key is "knowledge". What is eternal life? According to Jesus it is "knowledge of the father". All the BS about vagueness is NOT knowledge, it just isn't. It is the opposite. Sure, I mean we cannot have "all" knowledge and faith is required. but living by all faith doesn't even get you out of the telestial. Knowledge does. Well along with either good works or lack of bad works and habits and a testimony of Christ.

I keep emphasizing this "knowledge" aspect as the Lord has made it clear to me…

There are multiple perspectives & interpretations - that’s undeniable. And there’s probably some truth to be found in many of them. Some truth that God made clear to me is different from your spiritual impressions.

Remember, “we walk by faith, not by sight.” We live this life by faith, not by guaranteed knowledge. Faith is abstract, not concrete.

James Fowler offered stages of faith (which I previously posted about). It’s similar to Piaget’s…



Some get stuck, insisting that truth & everything must be explained concretely. The most important truths and knowledge are abstract - ie “God is love.”

[Original_Intent]

…Now one reminder, I said "truth" and what is truth? It is what we are here to gain, not abstract notions. Truth is "the knowledge of ....." not the facts but the knowledge or comprehension or understanding of things/facts of past, present and future. The key is "knowledge". What is eternal life? According to Jesus it is "knowledge of the father". All the BS about vagueness is NOT knowledge, it just isn't. It is the opposite. Sure, I mean we cannot have "all" knowledge and faith is required. but living by all faith doesn't even get you out of the telestial. Knowledge does. Well along with either good works or lack of bad works and habits and a testimony of Christ.

I keep emphasizing this "knowledge" aspect as the Lord has made it clear to me…

There are multiple perspectives & interpretations - that’s undeniable. And there’s probably some truth to be found in many of them. Some truth that God made clear to me is different from your spiritual impressions.

Remember, “we walk by faith, not by sight.” We live this life by faith, not by guaranteed knowledge. Faith is abstract, not concrete.

James Fowler offered stages of faith (which I previously posted about). It’s similar to Piaget’s…



Some get stuck, insisting that truth & everything must be explained concretely. The most important truths and knowledge are abstract - ie “God is love.”

This reminded me of something I read in the Upanishads this morning (and finding them fascinating) Brahman (God) can't be known with the senses but can only be known by experiencing Brahman. Sounds a lot like love. They also believe our sensory faculties are the masculine, but this "inner knowing" is feminine. Checks out for me.

[TheDuke]

…Now one reminder, I said "truth" and what is truth? It is what we are here to gain, not abstract notions. Truth is "the knowledge of ....." not the facts but the knowledge or comprehension or understanding of things/facts of past, present and future. The key is "knowledge". What is eternal life? According to Jesus it is "knowledge of the father". All the BS about vagueness is NOT knowledge, it just isn't. It is the opposite. Sure, I mean we cannot have "all" knowledge and faith is required. but living by all faith doesn't even get you out of the telestial. Knowledge does. Well along with either good works or lack of bad works and habits and a testimony of Christ.

I keep emphasizing this "knowledge" aspect as the Lord has made it clear to me…

There are multiple perspectives & interpretations - that’s undeniable. And there’s probably some truth to be found in many of them. Some truth that God made clear to me is different from your spiritual impressions.

Remember, “we walk by faith, not by sight.” We live this life by faith, not by guaranteed knowledge. Faith is abstract, not concrete.

James Fowler offered stages of faith (which I previously posted about). It’s similar to Piaget’s…



Some get stuck, insisting that truth & everything must be explained concretely. The most important truths and knowledge are abstract - ie “God is love.”

Agreed but we are to walk in faith (in this life and the next BTW) until we get the truth. The seed Alma speaks of, does not remain a seed but a large tree, and knowledge is gained.

After many years of walking in just faith, now I am seeing knowledge or at least "my" truths. Which is good as it is necessary; seems all things I have put my faith in over the years are crumbling slowly. And for my mission, the Lord is allowing me to see some truths.

I'm still working through this world's purpose. I now see it as more than any other telestial sphere (which are innumerable according to JS) it is a place for new life to ascend to the family of god, but more literally than the nominal Christians and LDS teach. I see the teachings as so abstract. As you say there are many abstract or figurative or vague truths. but for each figurative truth there truly is a literal truth. I'm a scientist; I understand theories and postulates and scientific tests and stuff; all is nice; but also there is just truth as well.

[Thinker]

Agreed but we are to walk in faith (in this life and the next BTW) until we get the truth. The seed Alma speaks of, does not remain a seed but a large tree, and knowledge is gained.

After many years of walking in just faith, now I am seeing knowledge or at least "my" truths. Which is good as it is necessary; seems all things I have put my faith in over the years are crumbling slowly. And for my mission, the Lord is allowing me to see some truths.

I'm still working through this world's purpose. I now see it as more than any other telestial sphere (which are innumerable according to JS) it is a place for new life to ascend to the family of god, but more literally than the nominal Christians and LDS teach. I see the teachings as so abstract. As you say there are many abstract or figurative or vague truths. but for each figurative truth there truly is a literal truth. I'm a scientist; I understand theories and postulates and scientific tests and stuff; all is nice; but also there is just truth as well.

It is painful when it seems all things you have put your faith in over many years are crumbling. It feels less sure. But I think this is God’s intention for us - to leave the ignorant bliss “garden of eden” & go have adventures, and learn -especially learn to LOVE God, & others as well as ourselves.

Before & after life, without the veil, there’s probably more surety in knowing - but this life is all about exercising the faith muscle! I don’t think - at least in this life - we ever “get to the truth” without faith. I know it sometimes feels less sure, but ce la vie. The large tree from a little seed is talking about discerning if what we put out FAITH in is good or not.

“…It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath NOT grown up to a perfect knowledge.
30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow...”- Alma 32

Thankfully, while we do adventure out kind of on our own in thinking etc., we don’t need to reinvent the wheel. As was mentioned before, “… the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet…” There are more concrete truths, but that doesn’t discount the many other types of truth. Eg.,

[Thinker]

…Now one reminder, I said "truth" and what is truth? It is what we are here to gain, not abstract notions. Truth is "the knowledge of ....." not the facts but the knowledge or comprehension or understanding of things/facts of past, present and future. The key is "knowledge". What is eternal life? According to Jesus it is "knowledge of the father". All the BS about vagueness is NOT knowledge, it just isn't. It is the opposite. Sure, I mean we cannot have "all" knowledge and faith is required. but living by all faith doesn't even get you out of the telestial. Knowledge does. Well along with either good works or lack of bad works and habits and a testimony of Christ.

I keep emphasizing this "knowledge" aspect as the Lord has made it clear to me…

There are multiple perspectives & interpretations - that’s undeniable. And there’s probably some truth to be found in many of them. Some truth that God made clear to me is different from your spiritual impressions.

Remember, “we walk by faith, not by sight.” We live this life by faith, not by guaranteed knowledge. Faith is abstract, not concrete.

James Fowler offered stages of faith (which I previously posted about). It’s similar to Piaget’s…



Some get stuck, insisting that truth & everything must be explained concretely. The most important truths and knowledge are abstract - ie “God is love.”

This reminded me of something I read in the Upanishads this morning (and finding them fascinating) Brahman (God) can't be known with the senses but can only be known by experiencing Brahman. Sounds a lot like love. They also believe our sensory faculties are the masculine, but this "inner knowing" is feminine. Checks out for me.

Interesting.
I think the Bible already talks about Heavenly Mother (aka divine feminine principles), but it’s all ascribed to Heavenly Father. Maybe as a foundation, it’s simpler to just think of Mr. God. But eventually, in seeking deeper truths to be incorporated, Mrs. God is also realized to be whole.

[TheDuke]

Again after this life we will need even more faith than we needed here. Faith is the great power that makes things happen even in eternity. Oh, it may be in different aspects but we never have perfect knowledge as we grow, only after. Then on to the next with more faith needed. But, along the way we do gain "knowledge" not just hope, or deeper faith, or more content feelings on our beliefs but real knowledge. So, when some say we're ok with just faith and esoteric aspects of truths, then it isn't a destination but a milestone of progression but not near the end.

this impressed me in revelation the other day. "...here then is eternal life to know the only wise and true god you have got to learn how to make yourselves gods..."

Two keys here eternal life (as Jesus said himself) is to KNOW..... god; and we have to "learn how" to become gods. Both are knowledge and learning! Not just following a pattern or loving your neighbor but learning how to become. Not just following a plan and becoming god, but learning how then following your plan...

in just plain English "follow the prophet"...........HAHA, sorry likely bad joke but while I said the other day following the prophet is a commandment, it is telestial law, and will keep you out of hell or perdition but will not make you a or like a god.

[Silver Pie]

Again after this life we will need even more faith than we needed here. Faith is the great power that makes things happen even in eternity.

Sounds like what the Lectures on Faith teach:

15 By this we understand that the principle of power, which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power, existing in the Deity, that all created things exist—so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, exist by reason of faith, as it existed in HIM.

16 Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed, neither would man have been formed of the dust—it is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal, as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute, (for it is an attribute) from the Deity and he would cease to exist.

17 Who cannot see, that if God framed the worlds by faith, that it is by faith that he exercises power over them, and that faith is the principle of power? And that if the principle of power, it must be so in man as well as in the Deity? This is the testimony of all the sacred writers, and the lesson which they have been endeavoring to teach to man.

https://lecturesonfaith.com/1/