Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

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Bronco73idi
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Bronco73idi »

ransomme wrote: May 5th, 2023, 9:05 am
Bronco73idi wrote: May 5th, 2023, 7:59 am
ransomme wrote: May 5th, 2023, 6:46 am

Bronco, God doesn't waste, He uses things for His purposes.

The Lamanites play the same roll as Ishmael and his descendents.

It's absurd to think of Hagar as an example of 'polygamy is good'.

Despite Ishmael being the firstborn, he did not get the birthright. That's also part of a pattern.
You don’t think I know this?

Abraham 3
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Abraham like Jospeh had the right, power, privilege to do as he pleased.

You just like to argue because you cannot comprehend that some men are loved by YHWH more then you. Ie they are not puppets.
That's an interesting point of view. Thanks you for sharing.
Moses was another that had these rights, he was almost killed by an angel because of not adhering to what he knew was right.

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Alexander
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Alexander »

ransomme wrote: May 5th, 2023, 6:46 am
Bronco73idi wrote: May 3rd, 2023, 11:09 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: May 3rd, 2023, 9:40 pm

Oh my words are very real. Including the ones I just wrote in response to you.

Evil men, do you see anywhere where YHWH told the men to do it?
Have ye not read?

I read the words of Genesis, the words that had Sarai give Hagar to her 85 year old husband and then out of jealousy she dealt hardly with her. I read that instead of condemning Abram and Sarai YHWH sent an angel to Hagar to tell her to submit to Sarai.

Your words are not of YHWH!
Bronco, God doesn't waste, He uses things for His purposes.

The Lamanites play the same roll as Ishmael and his descendents.

It's absurd to think of Hagar as an example of 'polygamy is good'.

Despite Ishmael being the firstborn, he did not get the birthright. That's also part of a pattern.
It's like reasoning "slavery is good" on account of Abraham buying/owning slaves (Hagar being one of them).

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Bronco73idi »

Alexander wrote: May 7th, 2023, 11:35 am
ransomme wrote: May 5th, 2023, 6:46 am
Bronco73idi wrote: May 3rd, 2023, 11:09 pm

Have ye not read?

I read the words of Genesis, the words that had Sarai give Hagar to her 85 year old husband and then out of jealousy she dealt hardly with her. I read that instead of condemning Abram and Sarai YHWH sent an angel to Hagar to tell her to submit to Sarai.

Your words are not of YHWH!
Bronco, God doesn't waste, He uses things for His purposes.

The Lamanites play the same roll as Ishmael and his descendents.

It's absurd to think of Hagar as an example of 'polygamy is good'.

Despite Ishmael being the firstborn, he did not get the birthright. That's also part of a pattern.
It's like reasoning "slavery is good" on account of Abraham buying/owning slaves (Hagar being one of them).
Is slavery a sin?

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Alexander
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Alexander »

Bronco73idi wrote: May 15th, 2023, 3:59 pm
Alexander wrote: May 7th, 2023, 11:35 am
ransomme wrote: May 5th, 2023, 6:46 am

Bronco, God doesn't waste, He uses things for His purposes.

The Lamanites play the same roll as Ishmael and his descendents.

It's absurd to think of Hagar as an example of 'polygamy is good'.

Despite Ishmael being the firstborn, he did not get the birthright. That's also part of a pattern.
It's like reasoning "slavery is good" on account of Abraham buying/owning slaves (Hagar being one of them).
Is slavery a sin?
😐

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by BuriedTartaria »

Bronco73idi wrote: May 15th, 2023, 3:59 pm
Alexander wrote: May 7th, 2023, 11:35 am
ransomme wrote: May 5th, 2023, 6:46 am

Bronco, God doesn't waste, He uses things for His purposes.

The Lamanites play the same roll as Ishmael and his descendents.

It's absurd to think of Hagar as an example of 'polygamy is good'.

Despite Ishmael being the firstborn, he did not get the birthright. That's also part of a pattern.
It's like reasoning "slavery is good" on account of Abraham buying/owning slaves (Hagar being one of them).
Is slavery a sin?
Image

Image

No offense (and I really mean that) but days ago I saw Alexander's post and I KNEW, I KNEW a polygamy peddler (and no offense to them, looking at the matter objectively, I don't think scripture is clear enough either way on the matter and I find that terribly odd) was going to go there with this kind of response. I'm sure others are thinking "yup, damn right. It's in the Old Testament. Slavery is of God."

Caricatures and stereotypes are really caricatures and stereotypes for a reason.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Bronco73idi »

BuriedTartaria wrote: May 15th, 2023, 11:32 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: May 15th, 2023, 3:59 pm
Alexander wrote: May 7th, 2023, 11:35 am

It's like reasoning "slavery is good" on account of Abraham buying/owning slaves (Hagar being one of them).
Is slavery a sin?
Image

Image

No offense (and I really mean that) but days ago I saw Alexander's post and I KNEW, I KNEW a polygamy peddler (and no offense to them, looking at the matter objectively, I don't think scripture is clear enough either way on the matter and I find that terribly odd) was going to go there with this kind of response. I'm sure others are thinking "yup, damn right. It's in the Old Testament. Slavery is of God."

Caricatures and stereotypes are really caricatures and stereotypes for a reason.
April fool, conspiracy theorist, racist, sexist, anti semitic, etc etc… All offensive words to mock one to change a behavior.

I personally think we are all slaves to the beast, we were born slaves.

Are the children not free? Let us not offend.

Are we to stupid to have a conversation?

I’ll give you credit for trying but Alexander is too full of himself, he rather mock like a 5th grade bully.

As someone who believes that a man who had slaves was a prophet of God, I would have to say slavery is not a sin. We are told God does not change but people say he does, weird…..

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SJR3t2
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by SJR3t2 »

Bronco73idi wrote: May 16th, 2023, 8:43 am April fool, conspiracy theorist, racist, sexist, anti semitic, etc etc… All offensive words to mock one to change a behavior.

I personally think we are all slaves to the beast, we were born slaves.

Are the children not free? Let us not offend.

Are we to stupid to have a conversation?

I’ll give you credit for trying but Alexander is too full of himself, he rather mock like a 5th grade bully.

As someone who believes that a man who had slaves was a prophet of God, I would have to say slavery is not a sin. We are told God does not change but people say he does, weird…..
David was a prophet of Elohim and he committed murder, by your logic murder is okay. Just because someone did something in the scriptures does not mean YHWH is okay with it.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Bronco73idi »

SJR3t2 wrote: May 16th, 2023, 8:50 am
Bronco73idi wrote: May 16th, 2023, 8:43 am April fool, conspiracy theorist, racist, sexist, anti semitic, etc etc… All offensive words to mock one to change a behavior.

I personally think we are all slaves to the beast, we were born slaves.

Are the children not free? Let us not offend.

Are we to stupid to have a conversation?

I’ll give you credit for trying but Alexander is too full of himself, he rather mock like a 5th grade bully.

As someone who believes that a man who had slaves was a prophet of God, I would have to say slavery is not a sin. We are told God does not change but people say he does, weird…..
David was a prophet of Elohim and he committed murder, by your logic murder is okay. Just because someone did something in the scriptures does not mean YHWH is okay with it.
Have ye not read?

Genesis 16
7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.

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Luke
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Luke »

BuriedTartaria wrote: May 15th, 2023, 11:32 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: May 15th, 2023, 3:59 pm
Alexander wrote: May 7th, 2023, 11:35 am

It's like reasoning "slavery is good" on account of Abraham buying/owning slaves (Hagar being one of them).
Is slavery a sin?
Image

Image

No offense (and I really mean that) but days ago I saw Alexander's post and I KNEW, I KNEW a polygamy peddler (and no offense to them, looking at the matter objectively, I don't think scripture is clear enough either way on the matter and I find that terribly odd) was going to go there with this kind of response. I'm sure others are thinking "yup, damn right. It's in the Old Testament. Slavery is of God."

Caricatures and stereotypes are really caricatures and stereotypes for a reason.
Brother O. Cowdery:
Dear Sir—This place having recently been visited by a gentleman who advocated the principles or doctrines of those who are called abolitionists; if you deem the following reflections of any service, or think they will have a tendency to correct the opinions of the southern public, relative to the views and sentiments I believe, as an individual, and am able to say, from personal knowledge, are the feelings of others, you are at liberty to give them publicity in the columns of the Advocate. I am prompted to this course in consequence, in one respect, of many elders having gone into the Southern States, besides, there now being many in that country who have already embraced the fulness of the gospel, as revealed through the book of Mormon,—having learned, by experience, that the enemy of truth does not slumber, nor cease his exertions to bias the minds of communities against the servants of the Lord, by stiring up the indignation of men upon all matters of importance or interest.
Thinking, perhaps, that the sound might go out, that “an abolitionist” had held forth several times to this community, and that the public feeling was not aroused to create mobs or disturbances, leaving the impression that all he said was concurred in, and received as gospel and the word of salvation. I am happy to say, that no violence or breach of the public peace was attempted, so far from this, that all except a very few, attended to their own avocations and left the gentleman to hold forth his own arguments to nearly naked walls.
I am aware, that many who profess to preach the gospel, complain against their brethren of the same faith, who reside in the south, and are ready to withdraw the hand of fellowship because they will not renounce the principle of slavery and raise their voice against every thing of the kind. This must be a tender point, and one which should call forth the candid reflection of all men, and especially before they advance in an opposition calculated to lay waste the fair States of the South, and set loose, upon the world a community of people who might peradventure, overrun our country and violate the most sacred principles of human society,—chastity and virtue.
No one will pretend to say, that the people of the free states are as capable of knowing the evils of slavery as those who hold them. If slavery is an evil, who, could we expect, would first learn it? Would the people of the free states, or would the slave states? All must readily admit, that th latter would first learn this fact. If the fact was learned first by those immediately concerned, who would be more capable than they of prescribing a remedy?
And besides, are not those who hold slaves, persons of ability, discernment and candor? Do they not expect to give an account at the bar of God for their conduct in this life? It may, no doubt, with propriety be said, that many who hold slaves live without the fear of God before their eyes, and, the same may be said of many in the free states. Then who is to be the judge in this matter?
So long, then, as those of the free states are not interested in the freedom of the slaves, any other than upon the mere principles of equal rights and of the gospel, and are ready to admit that there are men of piety who reside in the South, who are immediately concerned, and until they complain, and call for assistance, why not cease their clamor, and no further urge the slave to acts of murder, and the master to vigorous discipline, rendering both miserable, and unprepared to pursue that course which might otherwise lead them both to better their condition? I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall.
And further, what benefit will it ever be to the slave for persons to run over the free states, and excite indignation against their masters in the minds of thousands and tens of thousands who understand nothing relative to their circumstances or conditions? I mean particularly those who have never travelled in the South, and scarcely seen a negro in all their life. How any community can ever be excited with the chatter of such persons—boys and others who are too indolent to obtain their living by honest industry, and are incapable of pursuing any occupation of a professional nature, is unaccountable to me. And when I see persons in the free states signing documents against slavery, it is no less, in my mind, than an array of influence, and a declaration of hostilities against the people of the South! What can divide our Union sooner, God only knows!
After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt but those who have been forward in raising their voice against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling and unkind—wholly unacquainted with the gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then, to name certain passages from the bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon this matter, as the fact is uncontrovertable, that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation and walked with God. And so far from that prediction’s being averse from the mind of God it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude!
“And he said cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.—God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.”—Gen, 8:25, 26, 27.12
Trace the history of the world from this notable event down to this day, and you will find the fulfilment of this singular prophecy. What could have been the design of the Almighty in this wonderful occurrence is not for me to say; but I can say, that the curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the decrees and purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before him; and those who are determined to pursue a course which shows an opposition and a feverish restlessness against the designs of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do his own work without the aid of those who are not dictated by his counsel.
I must not pass over a notice of the history of Abraham, of whom so much is spoken in the scriptures. If we can credit the account, God conversed with him from time to time, and directed him in the way he should walk, saying, “I am the Almighty God: walk before me and be thou perfect.” Paul says that the gospel was preached to this man. And it is further said, that he had sheep and oxen, men-servants and maid-servants, &c. From this I conclude, that if the principle had been an evil one, in the midst of the communications made to this holy man, he would have been instructed differently. And if he was instructed against holding men-servants and maid-servants, he never ceased to do it; consequently must have incurred the displeasure of the Lord and thereby lost his blessings—which was not the fact.
Some may urge, that the names, man-servant and maid-servant, only mean hired persons who were at liberty to leave their masters or employers at any time. But we can easily settle this point by turning to the history of Abraham’s descendants, when governed by a law given from the mouth of the Lord himself. I know that when an Israelite had been brought into servitude in consequence of debt, or otherwise, at the seventh year he went from the task of his former master or employer; but to no other people or nation was this granted in the law to Israel. And if, after a man had served six years, he did not wish to be free, then the master was to bring him unto the judges, boar his ear with an awl, and that man was “to serve him forever.” The conclusion I draw from this, is that this people were led and governed by revelation and if such a law was wrong God only is to be blamed, and abolitionists are not responsible.
Now, before proceeding any farther, I wish to ask one or two questions:—Were the apostles men of God, and did they preach the gospel? I have no doubt but those who believe the bible will admit these facts, and that they also knew the mind and will of God concerning what they wrote to the churches which they were instrumental in building up.
This being admitted, the matter can be put to rest without much argument, if we look at a few items in the New Testament. Paul says:
“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ: Not with eye service, as men-pleasers: but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart: With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men. Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.” Eph. 6:5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
Here is a lesson which might be profitable for all to learn, and the principle upon which the church was anciently governed, is so plainly set forth, that an eye of truth might see and understand. Here, certainly are represented the master and servant; and so far from instructions to the servant to leave his master, he is commanded to be in obedience, as unto the Lord: the master in turn is required to treat them with kindness before God, understanding at the same time that he is to give an account.—The hand of fellowship is not withdrawn from him in consequence of having servants.
The same wrier, in his first epistle to Timothy, the sixth chapter, and the five first verses, says:
“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren: but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness: he is proud, knowing nothing but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
This is so perfectly plain, that I see no need of comment. The scripture stands for itself, and I believe that these men were better qualified to teach the will of God, than all the abolitionists in the world.
Before closing this communication, I beg leave to drop a word to the travelling elders: You know, brethren, that great responsibility rests upon you, and that you are accountable to God for all you teach the world. In my opinion, you will do well to search the book of Covenants, in which you will see the belief of the church concerning masters and servants. All men are to be taught to repent; but we have no right to interfere with slaves contrary to the mind and will of their masters. In fact, it would be much better and more prudent, not to preach at all to slaves, until after their masters are converted: and then, teach the master to use them with kindness, remembering that they are accountable to God, and that servants are bound to serve their masters, with singleness of heart, without murmuring. I do, most sincerely hope, that no one who is authorized from this church to preach the gospel, will so far depart from the scripture as to be found stirring up strife and sedition against our brethren of the South. Having spoken frankly and freely, I leave all in the hands of God, who will direct all things for his glory and the accomplishment of his work.
Praying that God may spare you to do much good in this life, I subscribe myself your brother in the Lord.
JOSEPH SMITH, jr.

(Joseph Smith, Letter to Oliver Cowdery, circa 9 April 1836, pg. 289-291, JSP; Messenger and Advocate 2:289-291 #7, April 1836)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ril-1836/1

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SJR3t2
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by SJR3t2 »

Bronco73idi wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:02 am
SJR3t2 wrote: May 16th, 2023, 8:50 am
Bronco73idi wrote: May 16th, 2023, 8:43 am April fool, conspiracy theorist, racist, sexist, anti semitic, etc etc… All offensive words to mock one to change a behavior.

I personally think we are all slaves to the beast, we were born slaves.

Are the children not free? Let us not offend.

Are we to stupid to have a conversation?

I’ll give you credit for trying but Alexander is too full of himself, he rather mock like a 5th grade bully.

As someone who believes that a man who had slaves was a prophet of God, I would have to say slavery is not a sin. We are told God does not change but people say he does, weird…..
David was a prophet of Elohim and he committed murder, by your logic murder is okay. Just because someone did something in the scriptures does not mean YHWH is okay with it.
Have ye not read?

Genesis 16
7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
I have read, and you are implying things that are not there. And instead of addressing your logic you go somewhere else which is very your nature and claim I have not read what we have discussed before it seems your memory and understanding is bad.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Bronco73idi »

SJR3t2 wrote: May 16th, 2023, 10:05 am
Bronco73idi wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:02 am
SJR3t2 wrote: May 16th, 2023, 8:50 am

David was a prophet of Elohim and he committed murder, by your logic murder is okay. Just because someone did something in the scriptures does not mean YHWH is okay with it.
Have ye not read?

Genesis 16
7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
I have read, and you are implying things that are not there. And instead of addressing your logic you go somewhere else which is very your nature and claim I have not read what we have discussed before it seems your memory and understanding is bad.
I was trying to be nice, treating you like an equal….

So if ye read how the lord dealt with Sarai’s slave Hagar the Egyptian (what was Ham’s wife name, hint at Jospeh Smith letter on this subject)

Then we read how the lord dealt with David with and the death of Uriah

2 Samuel 12
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Doesn’t sound like how the lord dealt with Sarai….

You puff yourself up making videos of your interpretation of the Holy Scriptures but in such a simple example you greatly err….. If I were you I would repent of my lack of understanding of my Lord and God.

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Alexander
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Alexander »

Bronco73idi wrote: Alexander is too full of himself, he rather mock like a 5th grade bully.
😐

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Alexander
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Alexander »

Luke wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:14 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: May 15th, 2023, 11:32 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: May 15th, 2023, 3:59 pm

Is slavery a sin?
Image

Image

No offense (and I really mean that) but days ago I saw Alexander's post and I KNEW, I KNEW a polygamy peddler (and no offense to them, looking at the matter objectively, I don't think scripture is clear enough either way on the matter and I find that terribly odd) was going to go there with this kind of response. I'm sure others are thinking "yup, damn right. It's in the Old Testament. Slavery is of God."

Caricatures and stereotypes are really caricatures and stereotypes for a reason.
Brother O. Cowdery:
Dear Sir—This place having recently been visited by a gentleman who advocated the principles or doctrines of those who are called abolitionists; if you deem the following reflections of any service, or think they will have a tendency to correct the opinions of the southern public, relative to the views and sentiments I believe, as an individual, and am able to say, from personal knowledge, are the feelings of others, you are at liberty to give them publicity in the columns of the Advocate. I am prompted to this course in consequence, in one respect, of many elders having gone into the Southern States, besides, there now being many in that country who have already embraced the fulness of the gospel, as revealed through the book of Mormon,—having learned, by experience, that the enemy of truth does not slumber, nor cease his exertions to bias the minds of communities against the servants of the Lord, by stiring up the indignation of men upon all matters of importance or interest.
Thinking, perhaps, that the sound might go out, that “an abolitionist” had held forth several times to this community, and that the public feeling was not aroused to create mobs or disturbances, leaving the impression that all he said was concurred in, and received as gospel and the word of salvation. I am happy to say, that no violence or breach of the public peace was attempted, so far from this, that all except a very few, attended to their own avocations and left the gentleman to hold forth his own arguments to nearly naked walls.
I am aware, that many who profess to preach the gospel, complain against their brethren of the same faith, who reside in the south, and are ready to withdraw the hand of fellowship because they will not renounce the principle of slavery and raise their voice against every thing of the kind. This must be a tender point, and one which should call forth the candid reflection of all men, and especially before they advance in an opposition calculated to lay waste the fair States of the South, and set loose, upon the world a community of people who might peradventure, overrun our country and violate the most sacred principles of human society,—chastity and virtue.
No one will pretend to say, that the people of the free states are as capable of knowing the evils of slavery as those who hold them. If slavery is an evil, who, could we expect, would first learn it? Would the people of the free states, or would the slave states? All must readily admit, that th latter would first learn this fact. If the fact was learned first by those immediately concerned, who would be more capable than they of prescribing a remedy?
And besides, are not those who hold slaves, persons of ability, discernment and candor? Do they not expect to give an account at the bar of God for their conduct in this life? It may, no doubt, with propriety be said, that many who hold slaves live without the fear of God before their eyes, and, the same may be said of many in the free states. Then who is to be the judge in this matter?
So long, then, as those of the free states are not interested in the freedom of the slaves, any other than upon the mere principles of equal rights and of the gospel, and are ready to admit that there are men of piety who reside in the South, who are immediately concerned, and until they complain, and call for assistance, why not cease their clamor, and no further urge the slave to acts of murder, and the master to vigorous discipline, rendering both miserable, and unprepared to pursue that course which might otherwise lead them both to better their condition? I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall.
And further, what benefit will it ever be to the slave for persons to run over the free states, and excite indignation against their masters in the minds of thousands and tens of thousands who understand nothing relative to their circumstances or conditions? I mean particularly those who have never travelled in the South, and scarcely seen a negro in all their life. How any community can ever be excited with the chatter of such persons—boys and others who are too indolent to obtain their living by honest industry, and are incapable of pursuing any occupation of a professional nature, is unaccountable to me. And when I see persons in the free states signing documents against slavery, it is no less, in my mind, than an array of influence, and a declaration of hostilities against the people of the South! What can divide our Union sooner, God only knows!
After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt but those who have been forward in raising their voice against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling and unkind—wholly unacquainted with the gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then, to name certain passages from the bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon this matter, as the fact is uncontrovertable, that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation and walked with God. And so far from that prediction’s being averse from the mind of God it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude!
“And he said cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.—God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.”—Gen, 8:25, 26, 27.12
Trace the history of the world from this notable event down to this day, and you will find the fulfilment of this singular prophecy. What could have been the design of the Almighty in this wonderful occurrence is not for me to say; but I can say, that the curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the decrees and purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before him; and those who are determined to pursue a course which shows an opposition and a feverish restlessness against the designs of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do his own work without the aid of those who are not dictated by his counsel.
I must not pass over a notice of the history of Abraham, of whom so much is spoken in the scriptures. If we can credit the account, God conversed with him from time to time, and directed him in the way he should walk, saying, “I am the Almighty God: walk before me and be thou perfect.” Paul says that the gospel was preached to this man. And it is further said, that he had sheep and oxen, men-servants and maid-servants, &c. From this I conclude, that if the principle had been an evil one, in the midst of the communications made to this holy man, he would have been instructed differently. And if he was instructed against holding men-servants and maid-servants, he never ceased to do it; consequently must have incurred the displeasure of the Lord and thereby lost his blessings—which was not the fact.
Some may urge, that the names, man-servant and maid-servant, only mean hired persons who were at liberty to leave their masters or employers at any time. But we can easily settle this point by turning to the history of Abraham’s descendants, when governed by a law given from the mouth of the Lord himself. I know that when an Israelite had been brought into servitude in consequence of debt, or otherwise, at the seventh year he went from the task of his former master or employer; but to no other people or nation was this granted in the law to Israel. And if, after a man had served six years, he did not wish to be free, then the master was to bring him unto the judges, boar his ear with an awl, and that man was “to serve him forever.” The conclusion I draw from this, is that this people were led and governed by revelation and if such a law was wrong God only is to be blamed, and abolitionists are not responsible.
Now, before proceeding any farther, I wish to ask one or two questions:—Were the apostles men of God, and did they preach the gospel? I have no doubt but those who believe the bible will admit these facts, and that they also knew the mind and will of God concerning what they wrote to the churches which they were instrumental in building up.
This being admitted, the matter can be put to rest without much argument, if we look at a few items in the New Testament. Paul says:
“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ: Not with eye service, as men-pleasers: but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart: With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men. Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.” Eph. 6:5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
Here is a lesson which might be profitable for all to learn, and the principle upon which the church was anciently governed, is so plainly set forth, that an eye of truth might see and understand. Here, certainly are represented the master and servant; and so far from instructions to the servant to leave his master, he is commanded to be in obedience, as unto the Lord: the master in turn is required to treat them with kindness before God, understanding at the same time that he is to give an account.—The hand of fellowship is not withdrawn from him in consequence of having servants.
The same wrier, in his first epistle to Timothy, the sixth chapter, and the five first verses, says:
“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren: but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness: he is proud, knowing nothing but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
This is so perfectly plain, that I see no need of comment. The scripture stands for itself, and I believe that these men were better qualified to teach the will of God, than all the abolitionists in the world.
Before closing this communication, I beg leave to drop a word to the travelling elders: You know, brethren, that great responsibility rests upon you, and that you are accountable to God for all you teach the world. In my opinion, you will do well to search the book of Covenants, in which you will see the belief of the church concerning masters and servants. All men are to be taught to repent; but we have no right to interfere with slaves contrary to the mind and will of their masters. In fact, it would be much better and more prudent, not to preach at all to slaves, until after their masters are converted: and then, teach the master to use them with kindness, remembering that they are accountable to God, and that servants are bound to serve their masters, with singleness of heart, without murmuring. I do, most sincerely hope, that no one who is authorized from this church to preach the gospel, will so far depart from the scripture as to be found stirring up strife and sedition against our brethren of the South. Having spoken frankly and freely, I leave all in the hands of God, who will direct all things for his glory and the accomplishment of his work.
Praying that God may spare you to do much good in this life, I subscribe myself your brother in the Lord.
JOSEPH SMITH, jr.

(Joseph Smith, Letter to Oliver Cowdery, circa 9 April 1836, pg. 289-291, JSP; Messenger and Advocate 2:289-291 #7, April 1836)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ril-1836/1
Later Joseph called for the national liberation and equalization of Negroes…

User avatar
FrankOne
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2826

Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by FrankOne »

SJR3t2 wrote: May 3rd, 2023, 9:40 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: May 3rd, 2023, 9:38 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: May 3rd, 2023, 9:36 pm

Hmm, sorry to hear that. Trying to become a law unto yourself won't work out very well. https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/
I’m not reading your fake words on some website. How do you justify judges 19?
Oh my words are very real. Including the ones I just wrote in response to you.

Evil men, do you see anywhere where YHWH told the men to do it?
'HVH told Joshua to murder every living thing in a city ...babies, unborn babies, etc.... so they could move into the city , mop up the blood, move in to their houses and proclaim "THIS is the promised land of 'HVH!" .

I'm not being rude, I am just telling exactly what actually happened. They sent in spies that consorted with the prostitutes to understand the weaknesses of the city and then went in at night and murdered every living thing.

Peeps
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1056

Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Peeps »

I now believe Polygamy in the OT was an object lesson to teach all people about becoming the bride and body of Christ. Moses marries Zipporah who is 1 of 7 sisters. Jacob's marriage to Leah and Rachel was a typology. Leah has 7 children representing the 7 churches. Rachel has 2 children representing the 2 tribes that remained faithful to the House of David when Solomon died...
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxt90-UZaaLJ ... k9I81SXJQP

God was "married" to Israel, then He divorced her, so He could remarry her with a New Covenant/New Testament:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxWKoBGcFSI9 ... Z2Y9l5UkGO

This is the "mystery" Paul was speaking of in Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


We have to learn to become Sons of God and the Bride of Christ regardless of gender.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Bronco73idi »

Alexander wrote: May 16th, 2023, 5:34 pm
Luke wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:14 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: May 15th, 2023, 11:32 pm

Image

Image

No offense (and I really mean that) but days ago I saw Alexander's post and I KNEW, I KNEW a polygamy peddler (and no offense to them, looking at the matter objectively, I don't think scripture is clear enough either way on the matter and I find that terribly odd) was going to go there with this kind of response. I'm sure others are thinking "yup, damn right. It's in the Old Testament. Slavery is of God."

Caricatures and stereotypes are really caricatures and stereotypes for a reason.
Brother O. Cowdery:
Dear Sir—This place having recently been visited by a gentleman who advocated the principles or doctrines of those who are called abolitionists; if you deem the following reflections of any service, or think they will have a tendency to correct the opinions of the southern public, relative to the views and sentiments I believe, as an individual, and am able to say, from personal knowledge, are the feelings of others, you are at liberty to give them publicity in the columns of the Advocate. I am prompted to this course in consequence, in one respect, of many elders having gone into the Southern States, besides, there now being many in that country who have already embraced the fulness of the gospel, as revealed through the book of Mormon,—having learned, by experience, that the enemy of truth does not slumber, nor cease his exertions to bias the minds of communities against the servants of the Lord, by stiring up the indignation of men upon all matters of importance or interest.
Thinking, perhaps, that the sound might go out, that “an abolitionist” had held forth several times to this community, and that the public feeling was not aroused to create mobs or disturbances, leaving the impression that all he said was concurred in, and received as gospel and the word of salvation. I am happy to say, that no violence or breach of the public peace was attempted, so far from this, that all except a very few, attended to their own avocations and left the gentleman to hold forth his own arguments to nearly naked walls.
I am aware, that many who profess to preach the gospel, complain against their brethren of the same faith, who reside in the south, and are ready to withdraw the hand of fellowship because they will not renounce the principle of slavery and raise their voice against every thing of the kind. This must be a tender point, and one which should call forth the candid reflection of all men, and especially before they advance in an opposition calculated to lay waste the fair States of the South, and set loose, upon the world a community of people who might peradventure, overrun our country and violate the most sacred principles of human society,—chastity and virtue.
No one will pretend to say, that the people of the free states are as capable of knowing the evils of slavery as those who hold them. If slavery is an evil, who, could we expect, would first learn it? Would the people of the free states, or would the slave states? All must readily admit, that th latter would first learn this fact. If the fact was learned first by those immediately concerned, who would be more capable than they of prescribing a remedy?
And besides, are not those who hold slaves, persons of ability, discernment and candor? Do they not expect to give an account at the bar of God for their conduct in this life? It may, no doubt, with propriety be said, that many who hold slaves live without the fear of God before their eyes, and, the same may be said of many in the free states. Then who is to be the judge in this matter?
So long, then, as those of the free states are not interested in the freedom of the slaves, any other than upon the mere principles of equal rights and of the gospel, and are ready to admit that there are men of piety who reside in the South, who are immediately concerned, and until they complain, and call for assistance, why not cease their clamor, and no further urge the slave to acts of murder, and the master to vigorous discipline, rendering both miserable, and unprepared to pursue that course which might otherwise lead them both to better their condition? I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall.
And further, what benefit will it ever be to the slave for persons to run over the free states, and excite indignation against their masters in the minds of thousands and tens of thousands who understand nothing relative to their circumstances or conditions? I mean particularly those who have never travelled in the South, and scarcely seen a negro in all their life. How any community can ever be excited with the chatter of such persons—boys and others who are too indolent to obtain their living by honest industry, and are incapable of pursuing any occupation of a professional nature, is unaccountable to me. And when I see persons in the free states signing documents against slavery, it is no less, in my mind, than an array of influence, and a declaration of hostilities against the people of the South! What can divide our Union sooner, God only knows!
After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt but those who have been forward in raising their voice against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling and unkind—wholly unacquainted with the gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then, to name certain passages from the bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon this matter, as the fact is uncontrovertable, that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation and walked with God. And so far from that prediction’s being averse from the mind of God it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude!
“And he said cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.—God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.”—Gen, 8:25, 26, 27.12
Trace the history of the world from this notable event down to this day, and you will find the fulfilment of this singular prophecy. What could have been the design of the Almighty in this wonderful occurrence is not for me to say; but I can say, that the curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the decrees and purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before him; and those who are determined to pursue a course which shows an opposition and a feverish restlessness against the designs of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do his own work without the aid of those who are not dictated by his counsel.
I must not pass over a notice of the history of Abraham, of whom so much is spoken in the scriptures. If we can credit the account, God conversed with him from time to time, and directed him in the way he should walk, saying, “I am the Almighty God: walk before me and be thou perfect.” Paul says that the gospel was preached to this man. And it is further said, that he had sheep and oxen, men-servants and maid-servants, &c. From this I conclude, that if the principle had been an evil one, in the midst of the communications made to this holy man, he would have been instructed differently. And if he was instructed against holding men-servants and maid-servants, he never ceased to do it; consequently must have incurred the displeasure of the Lord and thereby lost his blessings—which was not the fact.
Some may urge, that the names, man-servant and maid-servant, only mean hired persons who were at liberty to leave their masters or employers at any time. But we can easily settle this point by turning to the history of Abraham’s descendants, when governed by a law given from the mouth of the Lord himself. I know that when an Israelite had been brought into servitude in consequence of debt, or otherwise, at the seventh year he went from the task of his former master or employer; but to no other people or nation was this granted in the law to Israel. And if, after a man had served six years, he did not wish to be free, then the master was to bring him unto the judges, boar his ear with an awl, and that man was “to serve him forever.” The conclusion I draw from this, is that this people were led and governed by revelation and if such a law was wrong God only is to be blamed, and abolitionists are not responsible.
Now, before proceeding any farther, I wish to ask one or two questions:—Were the apostles men of God, and did they preach the gospel? I have no doubt but those who believe the bible will admit these facts, and that they also knew the mind and will of God concerning what they wrote to the churches which they were instrumental in building up.
This being admitted, the matter can be put to rest without much argument, if we look at a few items in the New Testament. Paul says:
“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ: Not with eye service, as men-pleasers: but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart: With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men. Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.” Eph. 6:5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
Here is a lesson which might be profitable for all to learn, and the principle upon which the church was anciently governed, is so plainly set forth, that an eye of truth might see and understand. Here, certainly are represented the master and servant; and so far from instructions to the servant to leave his master, he is commanded to be in obedience, as unto the Lord: the master in turn is required to treat them with kindness before God, understanding at the same time that he is to give an account.—The hand of fellowship is not withdrawn from him in consequence of having servants.
The same wrier, in his first epistle to Timothy, the sixth chapter, and the five first verses, says:
“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren: but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness: he is proud, knowing nothing but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
This is so perfectly plain, that I see no need of comment. The scripture stands for itself, and I believe that these men were better qualified to teach the will of God, than all the abolitionists in the world.
Before closing this communication, I beg leave to drop a word to the travelling elders: You know, brethren, that great responsibility rests upon you, and that you are accountable to God for all you teach the world. In my opinion, you will do well to search the book of Covenants, in which you will see the belief of the church concerning masters and servants. All men are to be taught to repent; but we have no right to interfere with slaves contrary to the mind and will of their masters. In fact, it would be much better and more prudent, not to preach at all to slaves, until after their masters are converted: and then, teach the master to use them with kindness, remembering that they are accountable to God, and that servants are bound to serve their masters, with singleness of heart, without murmuring. I do, most sincerely hope, that no one who is authorized from this church to preach the gospel, will so far depart from the scripture as to be found stirring up strife and sedition against our brethren of the South. Having spoken frankly and freely, I leave all in the hands of God, who will direct all things for his glory and the accomplishment of his work.
Praying that God may spare you to do much good in this life, I subscribe myself your brother in the Lord.
JOSEPH SMITH, jr.

(Joseph Smith, Letter to Oliver Cowdery, circa 9 April 1836, pg. 289-291, JSP; Messenger and Advocate 2:289-291 #7, April 1836)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ril-1836/1
Later Joseph called for the national liberation and equalization of Negroes…
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

User avatar
Alexander
the Great
Posts: 4590
Location: amongst the brotherhood of the Black Robed Regiment; cocked hat and cocked rifle

Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Alexander »

Bronco73idi wrote: May 16th, 2023, 6:46 pm
Alexander wrote: May 16th, 2023, 5:34 pm
Luke wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:14 am

Brother O. Cowdery:
Dear Sir—This place having recently been visited by a gentleman who advocated the principles or doctrines of those who are called abolitionists; if you deem the following reflections of any service, or think they will have a tendency to correct the opinions of the southern public, relative to the views and sentiments I believe, as an individual, and am able to say, from personal knowledge, are the feelings of others, you are at liberty to give them publicity in the columns of the Advocate. I am prompted to this course in consequence, in one respect, of many elders having gone into the Southern States, besides, there now being many in that country who have already embraced the fulness of the gospel, as revealed through the book of Mormon,—having learned, by experience, that the enemy of truth does not slumber, nor cease his exertions to bias the minds of communities against the servants of the Lord, by stiring up the indignation of men upon all matters of importance or interest.
Thinking, perhaps, that the sound might go out, that “an abolitionist” had held forth several times to this community, and that the public feeling was not aroused to create mobs or disturbances, leaving the impression that all he said was concurred in, and received as gospel and the word of salvation. I am happy to say, that no violence or breach of the public peace was attempted, so far from this, that all except a very few, attended to their own avocations and left the gentleman to hold forth his own arguments to nearly naked walls.
I am aware, that many who profess to preach the gospel, complain against their brethren of the same faith, who reside in the south, and are ready to withdraw the hand of fellowship because they will not renounce the principle of slavery and raise their voice against every thing of the kind. This must be a tender point, and one which should call forth the candid reflection of all men, and especially before they advance in an opposition calculated to lay waste the fair States of the South, and set loose, upon the world a community of people who might peradventure, overrun our country and violate the most sacred principles of human society,—chastity and virtue.
No one will pretend to say, that the people of the free states are as capable of knowing the evils of slavery as those who hold them. If slavery is an evil, who, could we expect, would first learn it? Would the people of the free states, or would the slave states? All must readily admit, that th latter would first learn this fact. If the fact was learned first by those immediately concerned, who would be more capable than they of prescribing a remedy?
And besides, are not those who hold slaves, persons of ability, discernment and candor? Do they not expect to give an account at the bar of God for their conduct in this life? It may, no doubt, with propriety be said, that many who hold slaves live without the fear of God before their eyes, and, the same may be said of many in the free states. Then who is to be the judge in this matter?
So long, then, as those of the free states are not interested in the freedom of the slaves, any other than upon the mere principles of equal rights and of the gospel, and are ready to admit that there are men of piety who reside in the South, who are immediately concerned, and until they complain, and call for assistance, why not cease their clamor, and no further urge the slave to acts of murder, and the master to vigorous discipline, rendering both miserable, and unprepared to pursue that course which might otherwise lead them both to better their condition? I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall.
And further, what benefit will it ever be to the slave for persons to run over the free states, and excite indignation against their masters in the minds of thousands and tens of thousands who understand nothing relative to their circumstances or conditions? I mean particularly those who have never travelled in the South, and scarcely seen a negro in all their life. How any community can ever be excited with the chatter of such persons—boys and others who are too indolent to obtain their living by honest industry, and are incapable of pursuing any occupation of a professional nature, is unaccountable to me. And when I see persons in the free states signing documents against slavery, it is no less, in my mind, than an array of influence, and a declaration of hostilities against the people of the South! What can divide our Union sooner, God only knows!
After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt but those who have been forward in raising their voice against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling and unkind—wholly unacquainted with the gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then, to name certain passages from the bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon this matter, as the fact is uncontrovertable, that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation and walked with God. And so far from that prediction’s being averse from the mind of God it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude!
“And he said cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.—God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.”—Gen, 8:25, 26, 27.12
Trace the history of the world from this notable event down to this day, and you will find the fulfilment of this singular prophecy. What could have been the design of the Almighty in this wonderful occurrence is not for me to say; but I can say, that the curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the decrees and purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before him; and those who are determined to pursue a course which shows an opposition and a feverish restlessness against the designs of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do his own work without the aid of those who are not dictated by his counsel.
I must not pass over a notice of the history of Abraham, of whom so much is spoken in the scriptures. If we can credit the account, God conversed with him from time to time, and directed him in the way he should walk, saying, “I am the Almighty God: walk before me and be thou perfect.” Paul says that the gospel was preached to this man. And it is further said, that he had sheep and oxen, men-servants and maid-servants, &c. From this I conclude, that if the principle had been an evil one, in the midst of the communications made to this holy man, he would have been instructed differently. And if he was instructed against holding men-servants and maid-servants, he never ceased to do it; consequently must have incurred the displeasure of the Lord and thereby lost his blessings—which was not the fact.
Some may urge, that the names, man-servant and maid-servant, only mean hired persons who were at liberty to leave their masters or employers at any time. But we can easily settle this point by turning to the history of Abraham’s descendants, when governed by a law given from the mouth of the Lord himself. I know that when an Israelite had been brought into servitude in consequence of debt, or otherwise, at the seventh year he went from the task of his former master or employer; but to no other people or nation was this granted in the law to Israel. And if, after a man had served six years, he did not wish to be free, then the master was to bring him unto the judges, boar his ear with an awl, and that man was “to serve him forever.” The conclusion I draw from this, is that this people were led and governed by revelation and if such a law was wrong God only is to be blamed, and abolitionists are not responsible.
Now, before proceeding any farther, I wish to ask one or two questions:—Were the apostles men of God, and did they preach the gospel? I have no doubt but those who believe the bible will admit these facts, and that they also knew the mind and will of God concerning what they wrote to the churches which they were instrumental in building up.
This being admitted, the matter can be put to rest without much argument, if we look at a few items in the New Testament. Paul says:
“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ: Not with eye service, as men-pleasers: but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart: With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men. Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.” Eph. 6:5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
Here is a lesson which might be profitable for all to learn, and the principle upon which the church was anciently governed, is so plainly set forth, that an eye of truth might see and understand. Here, certainly are represented the master and servant; and so far from instructions to the servant to leave his master, he is commanded to be in obedience, as unto the Lord: the master in turn is required to treat them with kindness before God, understanding at the same time that he is to give an account.—The hand of fellowship is not withdrawn from him in consequence of having servants.
The same wrier, in his first epistle to Timothy, the sixth chapter, and the five first verses, says:
“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren: but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness: he is proud, knowing nothing but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
This is so perfectly plain, that I see no need of comment. The scripture stands for itself, and I believe that these men were better qualified to teach the will of God, than all the abolitionists in the world.
Before closing this communication, I beg leave to drop a word to the travelling elders: You know, brethren, that great responsibility rests upon you, and that you are accountable to God for all you teach the world. In my opinion, you will do well to search the book of Covenants, in which you will see the belief of the church concerning masters and servants. All men are to be taught to repent; but we have no right to interfere with slaves contrary to the mind and will of their masters. In fact, it would be much better and more prudent, not to preach at all to slaves, until after their masters are converted: and then, teach the master to use them with kindness, remembering that they are accountable to God, and that servants are bound to serve their masters, with singleness of heart, without murmuring. I do, most sincerely hope, that no one who is authorized from this church to preach the gospel, will so far depart from the scripture as to be found stirring up strife and sedition against our brethren of the South. Having spoken frankly and freely, I leave all in the hands of God, who will direct all things for his glory and the accomplishment of his work.
Praying that God may spare you to do much good in this life, I subscribe myself your brother in the Lord.
JOSEPH SMITH, jr.

(Joseph Smith, Letter to Oliver Cowdery, circa 9 April 1836, pg. 289-291, JSP; Messenger and Advocate 2:289-291 #7, April 1836)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ril-1836/1
Later Joseph called for the national liberation and equalization of Negroes…
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Ok?

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SJR3t2
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by SJR3t2 »

Bronco73idi wrote: May 16th, 2023, 11:04 am
SJR3t2 wrote: May 16th, 2023, 10:05 am
Bronco73idi wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:02 am

Have ye not read?

Genesis 16
7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
I have read, and you are implying things that are not there. And instead of addressing your logic you go somewhere else which is very your nature and claim I have not read what we have discussed before it seems your memory and understanding is bad.
I was trying to be nice, treating you like an equal….

So if ye read how the lord dealt with Sarai’s slave Hagar the Egyptian (what was Ham’s wife name, hint at Jospeh Smith letter on this subject)

Then we read how the lord dealt with David with and the death of Uriah

2 Samuel 12
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Doesn’t sound like how the lord dealt with Sarai….

You puff yourself up making videos of your interpretation of the Holy Scriptures but in such a simple example you greatly err….. If I were you I would repent of my lack of understanding of my Lord and God.
Your such a liar you don't ever try to play nice, you constantly put me and others down. FYI there is capital punishment. You are the one who errors, and you are the one with lack of understanding of YHWH Elohim. You have one or two things you just keep bringing up and mocking others in saying don't you know about this, when they are the only things in the scriputes you know and twist.

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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

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Peeps wrote: May 16th, 2023, 6:16 pm I now believe Polygamy in the OT was an object lesson to teach all people about becoming the bride and body of Christ. Moses marries Zipporah who is 1 of 7 sisters. Jacob's marriage to Leah and Rachel was a typology. Leah has 7 children representing the 7 churches. Rachel has 2 children representing the 2 tribes that remained faithful to the House of David when Solomon died...
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxt90-UZaaLJ ... k9I81SXJQP

God was "married" to Israel, then He divorced her, so He could remarry her with a New Covenant/New Testament:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxWKoBGcFSI9 ... Z2Y9l5UkGO

This is the "mystery" Paul was speaking of in Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


We have to learn to become Sons of God and the Bride of Christ regardless of gender.
Torah directly speaks out against polygamy [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuIVBxw ... n&index=43[/ur]. If we are to justify one evil because one person did it, then people will use the same logic to justify all evils. Oh wait that is what goes on everywhere.

Peeps
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Peeps »

SJR3t2 wrote: May 16th, 2023, 8:58 pm
Peeps wrote: May 16th, 2023, 6:16 pm I now believe Polygamy in the OT was an object lesson to teach all people about becoming the bride and body of Christ. Moses marries Zipporah who is 1 of 7 sisters. Jacob's marriage to Leah and Rachel was a typology. Leah has 7 children representing the 7 churches. Rachel has 2 children representing the 2 tribes that remained faithful to the House of David when Solomon died...
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxt90-UZaaLJ ... k9I81SXJQP

God was "married" to Israel, then He divorced her, so He could remarry her with a New Covenant/New Testament:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxWKoBGcFSI9 ... Z2Y9l5UkGO

This is the "mystery" Paul was speaking of in Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


We have to learn to become Sons of God and the Bride of Christ regardless of gender.
Torah directly speaks out against polygamy [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuIVBxw ... n&index=43[/ur]. If we are to justify one evil because one person did it, then people will use the same logic to justify all evils. Oh wait that is what goes on everywhere.
Yes, it is evil when mankind practices it in the flesh, because he has been corrupted by sin. It is not when God our Father marries all of us, that is what becoming one with Jesus Christ means, it is the point of the resurrection, getting a body like Christ, becoming one with Him.

The Torah speaks of an Old Covenant. The New Testament speaks of a better covenant. You obviously didn't watch the 1 min. clips, because Pastor Sandy Armstrong is very well schooled in Torah, and Hebrew thought.

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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by SJR3t2 »

Peeps wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:14 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: May 16th, 2023, 8:58 pm
Peeps wrote: May 16th, 2023, 6:16 pm I now believe Polygamy in the OT was an object lesson to teach all people about becoming the bride and body of Christ. Moses marries Zipporah who is 1 of 7 sisters. Jacob's marriage to Leah and Rachel was a typology. Leah has 7 children representing the 7 churches. Rachel has 2 children representing the 2 tribes that remained faithful to the House of David when Solomon died...
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxt90-UZaaLJ ... k9I81SXJQP

God was "married" to Israel, then He divorced her, so He could remarry her with a New Covenant/New Testament:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxWKoBGcFSI9 ... Z2Y9l5UkGO

This is the "mystery" Paul was speaking of in Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


We have to learn to become Sons of God and the Bride of Christ regardless of gender.
Torah directly speaks out against polygamy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuIVBxw ... n&index=35. A better translation of new is renewed just as Yeshua renewed Torah commandment to love everyone. You obviously didn't watch what I shared because I go over the mistranslation. Not to mention what the BoM says on the subject also.

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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by BuriedTartaria »

Bronco73idi wrote: May 16th, 2023, 8:43 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: May 15th, 2023, 11:32 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: May 15th, 2023, 3:59 pm

Is slavery a sin?
Image

Image

No offense (and I really mean that) but days ago I saw Alexander's post and I KNEW, I KNEW a polygamy peddler (and no offense to them, looking at the matter objectively, I don't think scripture is clear enough either way on the matter and I find that terribly odd) was going to go there with this kind of response. I'm sure others are thinking "yup, damn right. It's in the Old Testament. Slavery is of God."

Caricatures and stereotypes are really caricatures and stereotypes for a reason.
April fool, conspiracy theorist, racist, sexist, anti semitic, etc etc… All offensive words to mock one to change a behavior.

I personally think we are all slaves to the beast, we were born slaves.

Are the children not free? Let us not offend.
I have views people would call racist. I reject modernity. I think a number of conspiracy theories have truth to them. But I don't feel USA slavery or Old Testament slavery (or any other basic concept of slavery) are not sin but I understand you view examples of it in the OT differently than I do, that coupled with views from Brigham (and as Luke posted, views from Joseph) play a role in your opinion. I agree with you that we are all slaves to the beast but I don't see how that means slavery isn't a sin which your question wondering if slavery is a sin is what prompted my response. Slavery and bondage have been used to teach lessons. We are slaves to Babylon, I agree entirely. I don't think those truths mean slavery isn't a sin. I truly don't mean to insult you. It wasn't my intention. I feel dissatisfaction with the scriptures. I don't feel they're clear enough to solve matters. You view them one way, I view them another way and I respect that.

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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Peeps »

SJR3t2 wrote: BoM shows Torah is still valid after the death and resurrection of Yeshua https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35. A better translation of new is renewed just as Yeshua renewed Torah commandment to love everyone. You obviously didn't watch what I shared because I go over the mistranslation. Not to mention what the BoM says on the subject also.

I didn't watch what you shared because it is a 3+hrs long video, and you didn't give me a timestamp! Is this the part you're talking about?
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx7zWUDE2de- ... bQQxuon2iS
Last edited by Peeps on May 16th, 2023, 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by SJR3t2 »

Peeps wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:47 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:33 pm
Peeps wrote: May 16th, 2023, 9:14 pm

I didn't watch what you shared because it is a 3+hrs long video, and you didn't give me a timestamp! Is this the part you're talking about?
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx7zWUDE2de- ... bQQxuon2iS
it's at the end, last hour or so

Peeps
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Re: Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

Post by Peeps »

The point I'm making is against the Mormon concept of eternal marriage, period. The idea of pairing off in male female relationships, whether it be monogamously or polygamously, and doing our own thing, like populating our own planet(s), in the eternities, will probably not happen, and the idea that we will become gods ourselves-- is false doctrine. Jesus Christ even spoke directly against this idea of eternal marriage, yet LDS have twisted it.

Mark 12:
18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Joseph Smith started teaching false doctrine in the Nauvoo era, and God took him out for it, as it is said in 2 Peter 2:
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

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