Jesus was a Pharisee

[Pazooka]

I thought this was pretty mind-blowing:

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO “FULFILL SCRIPTURE””

[i”]The goal of a first century Rabbi was to “fulfill the Torah”. To teach and interpret Scripture correctly was to “fulfill” Scripture. Let me repeat this. To interpret and teach Torah the right and correct way meant you were fulfilling Scripture. This is so important when we are looking at a very controversial segment of the Apostolic Writings, Matthew 5:17 “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Unfortunately the church teaches that this means He fulfilled or “ended” the Law when He died on the cross. When this absolutely means nothing of the sort. He came to fulfill or correctly teach the Torah!”[/i] ~ https://www.jesus-was-a-rabbi.com/p/cha ... rabbi.html

THE TAKING OF A RABBI’S “YOKE” UPON ONESELF:

Another interesting aspect of the Rabbi’s teaching was his “yoke”. The yoke of a Rabbi was how he taught, interpreted and applied the Torah. A talmidim would follow the Rabbi and actually “take on” his yoke – meaning the sum of requirements for fulfilling the Law taught by him. A Rabbi’s yoke was a representation of the obligations required by his students! Now doesn’t that just make sense when Yeshua would say, “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:29-30. The yoke Yeshua was talking about was how He taught the Torah. He did not teach it in a burdensome way, a way unable for them to follow. No, He taught it in an easy way. But, here’s what is important. He was teaching TORAH! ~ from the same source listed above

More research needed. But if this is so…just goes to show how important context is.

[Niemand]

Jesus traveled afar by way of his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, as Uncle Joseph was very rich, but helped others, and traveled quite a bit. He was also considered a tin magnate. Back then, the only source of tin was the UK (Britain).

Britain maybe. The modern state known as the United Kingdom would not exist until 1707 AD, nearly seventeen hundred years later. The southern parts of Britain were conquered by the Romans. So the present day UK... there was no UK, or indeed Scotland, England or Wales back in Jesus' day.

The parts of Britain where tin came from tended to be Cornwall. The Isles of Scilly to the west of Cornwall were kind of an entrepôt, where the Phoenicians had been coming to for hundreds of years by this point.

Lynn's already seen this thread, but if anybody else is interested in this subject, I've written a bit on it and other things:

viewtopic.php?t=71061

As for the Essene thing, I have heard this a number of times, I don't think it is fully proven. I think the evidence points more to John the Baptist being an Essene or influenced by them.

And as for the Pharisees, they were a strict group, the ancestors of later rabbinical Judaism, which is the form in fashion today. There were various factions among the Pharisees, some of them more in tune with the spirit than others.

[blitzinstripes]

Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem?

This heresy of the Nazoraeans exists in Beroea in the neighbourhood of Coele Syria and the Decapolis in the region of Pella and in Basanitis in the so-called Kokaba (Chochabe in Hebrew). From there it took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said."

— Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8

“Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem? “

I cannot find any evidence that it was Pharisees….

Didn’t the people call Jesus “rabbi” or “teacher”? Are you aware that this was was the Pharisees were?

The Pharisees… regarded the priests not as leaders or spiritual guides, but merely as ceremonial functionaries, who had the job of keeping the Temple sacrifices going and administering the maintenance of the Temple generally. Even the High Priest was regarded as a mere functionary and had no authority to pronounce on matters of religion. It was a Pharisee saying that ‘a learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant High Priest, and most High Priests were in fact regarded by the Pharisees as ignorant.

Instead of the priests, the Pharisees looked for guidance to their own leaders, the hakhamim (sages), who were not a hereditary class but came from every level of society, including the poorest.The hakhamim or rabbis were really lay leaders, who achieved their authority by their ability to master the extensive materials that comprised a Pharisee’s education. This included not only the whole Hebrew Bible, which was regarded as merely the first step in education, but also the whole superstructure of law, history ,science and homiletic exegesis (midrash) which had accumulated in the Pharisee academies. ~ Maccoby.

Who in their wildest dreams could come up with Luke 7:28? It is such a off the wall comment, so degrading to women. If it’s the truth it’s the truth and I’m an abrasive person who can make abrasive comments if they are true….

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Truth is stranger then fiction.

Sounds like you probably need to look into this one more.

Are you trying to tell yourself that someone made this up?
I like you and wish you the best in your quest for peace dealing with this subject.
I knew as early as a 3rd grader that the Baptist church was not right, that is where we went because of my stepdad.
I have a testament from the Holy Ghost that Jesus is my lord and savior and died for all.
I know other people don’t and they are lost in this world, no matter how much I try I cannot give them any oil from my vessel.

This is what people say to shut down a conversation - - which is fine.

You’re gaslighting me, though, when your comment insinuates I am not at peace regarding this subject.

You sure put a lot of faith into the words of this Macoby fellow. If you want to take this man's words and set at naught the holy scriptures, that's your prerogative. Perhaps Macoby can be the author of your salvation.

I'm probably not the only one here that genuinely feels some concern for you, as lately you seem to be in some kind of a bad way.

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

[Pazooka]

“Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem? “

I cannot find any evidence that it was Pharisees….

Didn’t the people call Jesus “rabbi” or “teacher”? Are you aware that this was was the Pharisees were?

The Pharisees… regarded the priests not as leaders or spiritual guides, but merely as ceremonial functionaries, who had the job of keeping the Temple sacrifices going and administering the maintenance of the Temple generally. Even the High Priest was regarded as a mere functionary and had no authority to pronounce on matters of religion. It was a Pharisee saying that ‘a learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant High Priest, and most High Priests were in fact regarded by the Pharisees as ignorant.

Instead of the priests, the Pharisees looked for guidance to their own leaders, the hakhamim (sages), who were not a hereditary class but came from every level of society, including the poorest.The hakhamim or rabbis were really lay leaders, who achieved their authority by their ability to master the extensive materials that comprised a Pharisee’s education. This included not only the whole Hebrew Bible, which was regarded as merely the first step in education, but also the whole superstructure of law, history ,science and homiletic exegesis (midrash) which had accumulated in the Pharisee academies. ~ Maccoby.

Who in their wildest dreams could come up with Luke 7:28? It is such a off the wall comment, so degrading to women. If it’s the truth it’s the truth and I’m an abrasive person who can make abrasive comments if they are true….

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Truth is stranger then fiction.

Sounds like you probably need to look into this one more.

Are you trying to tell yourself that someone made this up?
I like you and wish you the best in your quest for peace dealing with this subject.
I knew as early as a 3rd grader that the Baptist church was not right, that is where we went because of my stepdad.
I have a testament from the Holy Ghost that Jesus is my lord and savior and died for all.
I know other people don’t and they are lost in this world, no matter how much I try I cannot give them any oil from my vessel.

This is what people say to shut down a conversation - - which is fine.

You’re gaslighting me, though, when your comment insinuates I am not at peace regarding this subject.

You sure put a lot of faith into the words of this Macoby fellow. If you want to take this man's words and set at naught the holy scriptures, that's your prerogative. Perhaps Macoby can be the author of your salvation.

I'm probably not the only one here that genuinely feels some concern for you, as lately you seem to be in some kind of a bad way.

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So.....that's a gaslighting technique that you're using on me to try to insinuate that I am not healthy, sane or spiritually in tune.

Hyam Maccoby (Hebrew: חיים מכובי, 1924–2004) was a Jewish-British scholar and dramatist specialising in the study of the Jewish and Christian religious traditions. He was known for his theories of the historical Jesus and the origins of Christianity.

Maccoby was a Domus Exhibitioner in Classics at Balliol College, Oxford University. During the Second World War he served in the Royal Signals. Maccoby was librarian of Leo Baeck College in London. In retirement he moved to Leeds, where he held an academic position at the Centre for Jewish Studies, University of Leeds.

Let's try talking about the idea rather than tearing down the presenter.

[FrankOne]

Although Christ could never be classified into anything that has ever existed, it is possible, that he could be considered a type of Gnostic Buddhist.

(just guessing, I wasn't there)

his choice of instructive words were very carefully crafted for the congregation in front of him. Too much too soon and no one would have begun to follow him. Little steps can be grasped. Even in giving little steps, they still were so offended that they killed him and his own apostles could only handle the "milk". What's the meat? It certainly isn't being taught today by any church.

and today? Well, religious zealots created nonsense out of his teachings. Teachings based on guilt, fear, and punishment. Like the song "black eyed looks from those bible books, he's a man on a mission with a serious smile". Missionary man.

[Pazooka]

Although Christ could never be classified into anything that has ever existed, it is possible, that he could be considered a type of Gnostic Buddhist.

(just guessing, I wasn't there)

his choice of instructive words were very carefully crafted for the congregation in front of him. Too much too soon and no one would have begun to follow him. Little steps can be grasped. Even in giving little steps, they still were so offended that they killed him and his own apostles could only handle the "milk". What's the meat? It certainly isn't being taught today by any church.

and today? Well, religious zealots created nonsense out of his teachings. Teachings based on guilt, fear, and punishment. Like the song "black eyed looks from those bible books, he's a man on a mission with a serious smile". Missionary man.

His own apostles could only handle the milk?

He taught his apostles the secret things that he received from heaven. He spoke in parables to protect those secret things from the unworthy.

Why does the Gentile New Testament make the Messiah’s 12 emissaries to the tribes of Israel into totally incompetent morons? Was it because Rome was in the middle of squashing a non-stop series of Jewish rebellions fueled by Messianic expectation?

Check out the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132-135 AD. He was called “Bar Kokhba” (“Son of the Star”) by the most prominent Pharisee of the day. “Son of the Star” is a Messianic reference.

The Pharisees were not out to get the Messiah.

[Lynn]

Sorry, I have been very busy this past month, as some of my family decided to sell their house & due to the rush, were going to move in with me, into the new room I was building for my Mom- a Hoveround friendly room. Sadly, she passed on the day after New Years. So it has been a mad dash here. I even got my 15 year old granddaughter to assist. I showed her how to run electricity to a room, how to set up the wiring & much much more (certain portion of construction). Chelsea was thrilled to learn so much. She also now knows many tools by their name & exactly what they look like & do (are used for). I taught her the do's & dont's so she could wire a house safely. Anyway, the portion of the family that moved in like a cooler environment, so I had to set up another window unit in the room.

As I noted to Niemand, I used the terms UK (Britain) to identify the general wherabouts of where Uncle Joseph got his tin, not the current historical name in that era. It was also Uncle Joseph who had to claim the body of Jesus due to certain rules they had. If he had not, there would have been no other male qualified to be able to receive Jesus' body. It would have been dumped into a pile of other unclaimed bodies. Dolores Cannon, a good friend of mine, wrote two books from research recovered thru her special hypnosis that she used & taught others. These two books are: 'Jesus & the Essenes' & 'They Walked With Jesus'. It was in her lectures in the UK that people told her of the rumors of Uncle Joseph & Jesus having visited there. And finally, she ran into some that had found a very meticulous researched book, which details what happened after Jesus' death. The title is 'The Drama of the Lost Disciples' by George F. Jowett originally came out in December 1961. My copy is a 2009 reprint. Dolores, in republishing her 2nd edition of 'Jesus & the Essenes', includes an Addendum in 2001. She shares a brief analysis of some of the items found in Joyett's book. In 'Jesus & the Essenes', there is a chapter & description of the Star of Bethlehem, of which was caused by an specific alignment which actually caused a light beam to be shone on Bethlehem brighter than the sun. And that Jesus & John were quite different in temperament & expression, being taught by the Essene instructors. In 'They Walked With Jesus', certain other things are revealed, such as another chakra in your hand which is connected to the heart chakra for healing purposes, his older brother Joseph junior who was estranged from his father Joseph (from Joseph's 1st wife), his healing trips into the leper colonies, and how John the Beloved would screen towns (like a scout) to make sure it was safe for Jesus to come speak. You will also find that the Romans tried (attempted) several times to kill Jesus, including once when they beat him,. put him in a crate & dumped the crate over the Jerusalem wall into the deep ravine hoping to finally rid themselves of him without being identified as the culprits. Joseph junior's daughter was amazed that Jesus even survived that attempt to kill him.

The Essenes were set up by the "Teacher" who was Elijah sent again to prepare the way for himself (as John the Baptist) & Jesus to be born with & assisted.

In like manner, the Restoration was brought about in a sense just as that- a preparatory group once again that despite all the different factions, a remnant that is diverse will succeed as Elijah returns yet again to prepare the way, or in other words, the enigmatic "John Peniel".

There is also an extensive amount found in the Edgar Cayce Readings as to Jesus & John being raised by the Essenes. Ironically, Cayce foretold that soon, the records of the Essenes would soon be discovered. And sure enough, after Cayce's death in 1945, the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. I suggest Jeffrey Furst's "Edgar Cayce's Story of Jesus' as he has compiled much concerning the Readings on the Essenes.

Currently there are quite a few books (and videos) out on Jesus & John's travels in the the Far East & other places. And I am sure you know of one that claims he was here in the Americas- by way of the Book of Mormon. As well as 'He Walked the Americas' by L. Taylor Hansen.

[Lynn]

I forgot to add, or make mention once again, that it was the Pharisees who tried to trick Jesus in the case of the young lady they accused & noted Moses said to stone her. As Jesus once stated, if one tears down one's group, how will it stand?

[Lynn]

Just a moment here. If you want to read all about Jesus' great Uncle Joseph of Arimathea (younger brother of Mary's father), in George F. Joyett's book- 'The Drama of the Lost Disciples' be sure & read chapters 1-9. On p.77 a translation from a reading in the ancient Celtic Triads speaks of "The Lord Yesu", "He is the King of Glory". How the Druidic priesthood know his name beforehand is a mystery. And it was long before the Greek rendering of "Jesus". Yet, it was preserved even after Jesus (the Greek version) came out, as Yesu. Joseph referred to the teachings of Jesus as "The Way", not as Christians. Joseph was one of the richest men in history at that time. Obviously God had blessed him beyond boundaries to assist Jesus, which he always did. He was respected & feared by the Sanhedrin, even though he was on its council. He was also a Roman senator. He had at least 4 homes (one referred to as a palace). In 36 AD (CE), he sailed a ship (to which they sabotaged the steering) across the Mediterranean Sea, of which carried Mother Mary & many of the disciples (apostles) fleeing for their safety, including the now exiled uncle Joseph. A miracle ensued, as their saboteurs figured they would stay adrift, and starve, but instead landed in Marseilles safely and thru France, they continued on to the British isles & found safety there. Mother Mary is buried there. The Sanhedrin had their agent/agents working on getting rid of these who led "The Way". And somehow, they managed to expel Uncle Joseph from the Sanhedrin. When Saul (referred to as the Saulian Gestapo) got converted (had his "experience"), the ruling Sadduces over the Sanhedrin were furious (on pp.31-32). I got my used copy of this book thru ABEbooks.com for about $30.00

[FrankOne]

Just a moment here. If you want to read all about Jesus' great Uncle Joseph of Arimathea (younger brother of Mary's father), in George F. Joyett's book- 'The Drama of the Lost Disciples' be sure & read chapters 1-9. On p.77 a translation from a reading in the ancient Celtic Triads speaks of "The Lord Yesu", "He is the King of Glory". How the Druidic priesthood know his name beforehand is a mystery. And it was long before the Greek rendering of "Jesus". Yet, it was preserved even after Jesus (the Greek version) came out, as Yesu. Joseph referred to the teachings of Jesus as "The Way", not as Christians. Joseph was one of the richest men in history at that time. Obviously God had blessed him beyond boundaries to assist Jesus, which he always did. He was respected & feared by the Sanhedrin, even though he was on its council. He was also a Roman senator. He had at least 4 homes (one referred to as a palace). In 36 AD (CE), he sailed a ship (to which they sabotaged the steering) across the Mediterranean Sea, of which carried Mother Mary & many of the disciples (apostles) fleeing for their safety, including the now exiled uncle Joseph. A miracle ensued, as their saboteurs figured they would stay adrift, and starve, but instead landed in Marseilles safely and thru France, they continued on to the British isles & found safety there. Mother Mary is buried there. The Sanhedrin had their agent/agents working on getting rid of these who led "The Way". And somehow, they managed to expel Uncle Joseph from the Sanhedrin. When Saul (referred to as the Saulian Gestapo) got converted (had his "experience"), the ruling Sadduces over the Sanhedrin were furious (on pp.31-32). I got my used copy of this book thru ABEbooks.com for about $30.00

Excellent. I'll buy that book. Have you considered the crest/arms of Joseph of Arimethea and how it relates to the sites and tales of Glastonbury?

crest shield of Joseph of Arimethea.jpg (18.79 KiB) Viewed 80 times

[Lynn]

I believe that (Glastonberry) was the area they arrived in. On p.79, it shares quotes concerning the Roman Catholic church & the British National church. 3 Catholic councils recognized that the British church took precedence of all churches as Joseph of Arimathea founded it immediately after the Passion of Christ. Another quote notes that it was founded in AD 36 which was 160 years before Rome confessed Christianity. And one foot note is found here on this page that notes of a book- ' St,. Joseph of Arimathea at Glastonbury'.

[Shawn Henry]

So.....that's a gaslighting technique that you're using on me to try to insinuate that I am not healthy, sane or spiritually in tune.

He's not gaslighting you, he is simply telling you what he honestly sees. True friends tell you when they see a booger on your nose.

It's everyone who doesn't have the courage to say something that you should be worried about.

[Pazooka]

So.....that's a gaslighting technique that you're using on me to try to insinuate that I am not healthy, sane or spiritually in tune.

He's not gaslighting you, he is simply telling you what he honestly sees. True friends tell you when they see a booger on your nose.

It's everyone who doesn't have the courage to say something that you should be worried about.

Congrats - your comment also qualifies as gaslighting. Comparing my perspective to me having “a booger on (my) nose” is also not mature nor respectful.

“Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which the abuser attempts to sow self-doubt and confusion in their victim's mind. Typically, gaslighters are seeking to gain power and control over the other person, by distorting reality and forcing them to question their own judgment and intuition.”
~ https://www.newportinstitute.com/resour ... intuition.

“Unconscious or unintentional gaslighting can occur for a variety of reasons. The motive might stem from communication issues, interpersonal dynamics, personal insecurities, or simply a lack of awareness. Some individuals may not be fully aware of the impact their words and actions have on others.” ~ https://www.simplypsychology.org/uninte ... %20others.

[Shawn Henry]

So.....that's a gaslighting technique that you're using on me to try to insinuate that I am not healthy, sane or spiritually in tune.

He's not gaslighting you, he is simply telling you what he honestly sees. True friends tell you when they see a booger on your nose.

It's everyone who doesn't have the courage to say something that you should be worried about.

Congrats - your comment also qualifies as gaslighting. Comparing my perspective to me having “a booger on (my) nose” is also not mature nor respectful.

“Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which the abuser attempts to sow self-doubt and confusion in their victim's mind. Typically, gaslighters are seeking to gain power and control over the other person, by distorting reality and forcing them to question their own judgment and intuition.”
~ https://www.newportinstitute.com/resour ... intuition.

“Unconscious or unintentional gaslighting can occur for a variety of reasons. The motive might stem from communication issues, interpersonal dynamics, personal insecurities, or simply a lack of awareness. Some individuals may not be fully aware of the impact their words and actions have on others.” ~ https://www.simplypsychology.org/uninte ... %20others.

Pazooka, you've never been more wrong. He was not gaslighting you and neither am I. He gave you his opinion and I pointed out that that is how he sees it.

There's no "pyschological manipulation" here whatsoever. He says he fears the path you are going down and I do too. That's simply my opinion, I could be wrong.

It is mature and respectful to tell someone you honestly think they are wrong. That's what you do when you truly care.

[Pazooka]

He's not gaslighting you, he is simply telling you what he honestly sees. True friends tell you when they see a booger on your nose.

It's everyone who doesn't have the courage to say something that you should be worried about.

Congrats - your comment also qualifies as gaslighting. Comparing my perspective to me having “a booger on (my) nose” is also not mature nor respectful.

“Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which the abuser attempts to sow self-doubt and confusion in their victim's mind. Typically, gaslighters are seeking to gain power and control over the other person, by distorting reality and forcing them to question their own judgment and intuition.”
~ https://www.newportinstitute.com/resour ... intuition.

“Unconscious or unintentional gaslighting can occur for a variety of reasons. The motive might stem from communication issues, interpersonal dynamics, personal insecurities, or simply a lack of awareness. Some individuals may not be fully aware of the impact their words and actions have on others.” ~ https://www.simplypsychology.org/uninte ... %20others.

Pazooka, you've never been more wrong. He was not gaslighting you and neither am I. He gave you his opinion and I pointed out that that is how he sees it.

There's no "pyschological manipulation" here whatsoever. He says he fears the path you are going down and I do too. That's simply my opinion, I could be wrong.

It is mature and respectful to tell someone you honestly think they are wrong. That's what you do when you truly care.

You can, indeed, unintentionally manipulate and it happens all the time when it comes to religion.

“I am worried about you” is designed to invoke, whether you are aware of it or not, a sense of shame in the other person because it suggests that that person is in trouble.

That is exactly what is being suggested by the commenter. He may be completely unaware of how manipulative that is because it is part of our programming crafted to keep people inside the dogma.

[Pazooka]

I believe Jesus was a Pharisee (a rabbi) and a Messiah (political aspirant to the throne).

When he was killed, his followers expected his return at around the 40 year mark as a fulfillment of prophecy.

The Anti-Christ (anti-messiah) was Emperor Vespasian whom Josephus the false prophet was convinced was the fulfillment of the prophecy that one would arise that would rule the world (the known world).

Josephus was the false prophet who came the “earth/land” (ie he was a native of the land) who looked like a servant (servant and lamb are the same) but spoke like the dragon. He worked to convince the people that the only way to save the temple was to surrender it to the Romans. He did his best to pacify the zealots.

Messiahship is bigger than Jesus. Sonship is bigger than Jesus.

Edit to add: Just like the menorah has seven branches… Jesus is just one branch but a part of that whole.

[Shawn Henry]

You can, indeed, unintentionally manipulate and it happens all the time when it comes to religion.

“I am worried about you” is designed to invoke, whether you are aware of it or not, a sense of shame in the other person because it suggests that that person is in trouble.

That is exactly what is being suggested by the commenter. He may be completely unaware of how manipulative that is because it is part of our programming crafted to keep people inside the dogma.

You are a good contributer to this forum and many us of have grown fond of you. That is called friendship. Friends say honest things when they care.