Jesus was a Pharisee

[Pazooka]

The Pharisees were the grass-roots teachers and local leadership who were drawn from all walks of life.

The Sadducees were the wealthy, elite and collaborators with Rome in the effort to maintain status quo.

Hyam Maccoby’s The Mythmaker. Check out Chapters 3 & 4: The Pharisees and Was Jesus a Pharisee? if you want your mind blown.

Faith in Jesus is precluded by ignorance. Are we Romans or Israelites, today?

https://ia601508.us.archive.org/3/items ... 01-718.pdf

[Ymarsakar]

There were also zealots

[Lynn]

Jesus was none of the above noted-- Pharisee, Sadducee, or Zealot. If any, he was of the Essenes. Mother Mary, her sister Josie, Elizabeth (mother of John the Baptist), Joseph (Jesus' father), and many others were Essenes. The Essenes were a group set aside to be channels of the Messiah & Forerunner (Jesus & Elijah aka John the Baptist).

[Lynn]

And sometimes we pick up where we left off. In the case of John the Baptist, he started his preaching on the Jordan River exactly where Elijah was taken up. Jesus healed where Joshua killed.

[Bronco73idi]

I wonder if Pazooka believes in the miracles that Jesus performed.

[Pazooka]

Jesus was none of the above noted-- Pharisee, Sadducee, or Zealot. If any, he was of the Essenes. Mother Mary, her sister Josie, Elizabeth (mother of John the Baptist), Joseph (Jesus' father), and many others were Essenes. The Essenes were a group set aside to be channels of the Messiah & Forerunner (Jesus & Elijah aka John the Baptist).

Were they Essenes or were they Nazarenes? How much do you know about the Essenes of his day? Probaby exactly what everybody else knows and that’s not much.

Don’t be so quick to assume he didn’t at least side with the Pharisees, contrary to much of the content in the four gospels. For instance there is the instance where the Pharisees warn Jesus to skip town for his safety.

The Pharisees had to be made into the bad guys because otherwise the finger gets pointed at Rome.

[Pazooka]

I wonder if Pazooka believes in the miracles that Jesus performed.

That is not even close to being on topic.

[Pazooka]

The point was intended to be that, historically, there was no bad blood between Jesus and the Pharisees and that he possibly would have even been considered one…as well as a zealot. Excellent research continues to be made in this field of study.

[Pazooka]

Another case in point: the story of Jesus and his disciples picking ears of corn on the Sabbath…

One sabbath he was going through the cornfields; and his disciples as they went, began to pluck ears of corn. The Pharisees said to him, ‘Look, why are they doing what is forbidden on the sabbath?’ He answered, ‘Have you never read what David did when he and his men were hungry and had nothing to eat? He went into the House of God, in the time of Abiathar the High Priest, and ate the consecrated loaves, though no one but a priest is allowed to eat them, and even gave them to his men.’
He also said to them, ‘The sabbath is made for the sake of man and not man for the sabbath: therefore the Son of Man is sovereign even over the sabbath.’

That thing he just said - “sabbath is made for the sake of man…” - is a Pharisee maxim and Jesus used it because it is thought they were on the run from Herod Antipas - a very similar situation to the one in which David found himself because he was running from Saul’s men.

I include the excerpt from Maccoby’s book below because he is so right about the gospels giving the impression that Jesus and the fellas were on holiday in the countryside - - so far from the reality of what was happening at the time.

In fact, when Jesus was a lad, four thousand Jews were crucified in response to an insurrection against Roman taxation. And in times before that, the punishment for a mother having her infant son circumcised according to the practice of her religion was to kill her and hang her infant son from her neck.

[Bronco73idi]

If we read earlier in Mark 12 with the Pharisees interaction with Jesus we can find that they were humbled by him then.


Mark 12
13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.
14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Cæsar, or not?
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Cæsar’s.
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Cæsar the things that are Cæsar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

This author that you have cited, gives a perfect example of cherry picking.

[Pazooka]

If we read earlier in Mark 12 with the Pharisees interaction with Jesus we can find that they were humbled by him then.


Mark 12
13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.
14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Cæsar, or not?
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Cæsar’s.
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Cæsar the things that are Cæsar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

This author that you have cited, gives a perfect example of cherry picking.

First of all, one should be suspicious of anything claiming that Pharisees were siding with Herodians.

Second, did Jesus really teach one should pay taxes to Rome?

1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Cæsar, saying that he himself is Christ a King. - Luke 23

[Bronco73idi]

If we read earlier in Mark 12 with the Pharisees interaction with Jesus we can find that they were humbled by him then.


Mark 12
13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.
14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Cæsar, or not?
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Cæsar’s.
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Cæsar the things that are Cæsar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

This author that you have cited, gives a perfect example of cherry picking.

First of all, one should be suspicious of anything claiming that Pharisees were siding with Herodians.

Second, did Jesus really teach one should pay taxes to Rome?

1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Cæsar, saying that he himself is Christ a King. - Luke 23

“ First of all, one should be suspicious of anything claiming that Pharisees were siding with Herodians.”

Did the lord tell the Pharisees to get out of Jerusalem before 66AD? If not, they are not his people, they are part of the cursed nation.

I love the the “Render unto Caesar” teaching. So much doctrine in it.

“Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.”

If they were of the same religion “Pharisees” why would he ask them “why tempt me”? Why would they have a penny and he doesn’t?

“Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Cæsar’s.”

He is also talking about graven images, thou shalt not worship graven images.

So give Caesar what is his, his image is on it so it is his……

It’s a beautiful teaching and it shows the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in all 3 books that it is recorded in. They call him master and use pretty words to act like they are students and want to learn when in reality they are trying to trap!

[Pazooka]

If we read earlier in Mark 12 with the Pharisees interaction with Jesus we can find that they were humbled by him then.


Mark 12
13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.
14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Cæsar, or not?
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Cæsar’s.
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Cæsar the things that are Cæsar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

This author that you have cited, gives a perfect example of cherry picking.

First of all, one should be suspicious of anything claiming that Pharisees were siding with Herodians.

Second, did Jesus really teach one should pay taxes to Rome?

1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Cæsar, saying that he himself is Christ a King. - Luke 23

“ First of all, one should be suspicious of anything claiming that Pharisees were siding with Herodians.”

Did the lord tell the Pharisees to get out of Jerusalem before 66AD? If not, they are not his people, they are part of the cursed nation.

I love the the “Render unto Caesar” teaching. So much doctrine in it.

“Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.”

If they were of the same religion “Pharisees” why would he ask them “why tempt me”? Why would they have a penny and he doesn’t?

“Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Cæsar’s.”

He is also talking about graven images, thou shalt not worship graven images.

So give Caesar what is his, his image is on it so it is his……

It’s a beautiful teaching and it shows the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in all 3 books that it is recorded in. They call him master and use pretty words to act like they are students and want to learn when in reality they are trying to trap!

Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem?

This heresy of the Nazoraeans exists in Beroea in the neighbourhood of Coele Syria and the Decapolis in the region of Pella and in Basanitis in the so-called Kokaba (Chochabe in Hebrew). From there it took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said."

— Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8

[Bronco73idi]

First of all, one should be suspicious of anything claiming that Pharisees were siding with Herodians.

Second, did Jesus really teach one should pay taxes to Rome?

1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Cæsar, saying that he himself is Christ a King. - Luke 23

“ First of all, one should be suspicious of anything claiming that Pharisees were siding with Herodians.”

Did the lord tell the Pharisees to get out of Jerusalem before 66AD? If not, they are not his people, they are part of the cursed nation.

I love the the “Render unto Caesar” teaching. So much doctrine in it.

“Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.”

If they were of the same religion “Pharisees” why would he ask them “why tempt me”? Why would they have a penny and he doesn’t?

“Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Cæsar’s.”

He is also talking about graven images, thou shalt not worship graven images.

So give Caesar what is his, his image is on it so it is his……

It’s a beautiful teaching and it shows the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in all 3 books that it is recorded in. They call him master and use pretty words to act like they are students and want to learn when in reality they are trying to trap!

Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem?

This heresy of the Nazoraeans exists in Beroea in the neighbourhood of Coele Syria and the Decapolis in the region of Pella and in Basanitis in the so-called Kokaba (Chochabe in Hebrew). From there it took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said."

— Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8

“Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem? “

I cannot find any evidence that it was Pharisees….


Who in their wildest dreams could come up with Luke 7:28? It is such a off the wall comment, so degrading to women. If it’s the truth it’s the truth and I’m an abrasive person who can make abrasive comments if they are true….

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Truth is stranger then fiction.

Are you trying to tell yourself that someone made this up?

I like you and wish you the best in your quest for peace dealing with this subject.

I knew as early as a 3rd grader that the Baptist church was not right, that is where we went because of my stepdad.

I have a testament from the Holy Ghost that Jesus is my lord and savior and died for all.

I know other people don’t and they are lost in this world, no matter how much I try I cannot give them any oil from my vessel.

[TheDuke]

The Pharisees were the grass-roots teachers and local leadership who were drawn from all walks of life.

The Sadducees were the wealthy, elite and collaborators with Rome in the effort to maintain status quo.

Hyam Maccoby’s The Mythmaker. Check out Chapters 3 & 4: The Pharisees and Was Jesus a Pharisee? if you want your mind blown.

Faith in Jesus is precluded by ignorance. Are we Romans or Israelites, today?

https://ia601508.us.archive.org/3/items ... 01-718.pdf

Given you believe Paul was a "fake" apostle. And Mark was the only real gospel and the others faked later. Now you're saying the stories in Mark are incorrect. Do you believe any of the NT? Are you here just to convince others that entire story of Jesus is a lie? Just wanting to understand your position and motivation. Not much NT after removing the books you don't like.

[Pazooka]

“ First of all, one should be suspicious of anything claiming that Pharisees were siding with Herodians.”

Did the lord tell the Pharisees to get out of Jerusalem before 66AD? If not, they are not his people, they are part of the cursed nation.

I love the the “Render unto Caesar” teaching. So much doctrine in it.

“Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.”

If they were of the same religion “Pharisees” why would he ask them “why tempt me”? Why would they have a penny and he doesn’t?

“Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Cæsar’s.”

He is also talking about graven images, thou shalt not worship graven images.

So give Caesar what is his, his image is on it so it is his……

It’s a beautiful teaching and it shows the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in all 3 books that it is recorded in. They call him master and use pretty words to act like they are students and want to learn when in reality they are trying to trap!

Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem?

This heresy of the Nazoraeans exists in Beroea in the neighbourhood of Coele Syria and the Decapolis in the region of Pella and in Basanitis in the so-called Kokaba (Chochabe in Hebrew). From there it took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said."

— Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8

“Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem? “

I cannot find any evidence that it was Pharisees….

Didn’t the people call Jesus “rabbi” or “teacher”? Are you aware that this was was the Pharisees were?

The Pharisees… regarded the priests not as leaders or spiritual guides, but merely as ceremonial functionaries, who had the job of keeping the Temple sacrifices going and administering the maintenance of the Temple generally. Even the High Priest was regarded as a mere functionary and had no authority to pronounce on matters of religion. It was a Pharisee saying that ‘a learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant High Priest, and most High Priests were in fact regarded by the Pharisees as ignorant.

Instead of the priests, the Pharisees looked for guidance to their own leaders, the hakhamim (sages), who were not a hereditary class but came from every level of society, including the poorest.The hakhamim or rabbis were really lay leaders, who achieved their authority by their ability to master the extensive materials that comprised a Pharisee’s education. This included not only the whole Hebrew Bible, which was regarded as merely the first step in education, but also the whole superstructure of law, history ,science and homiletic exegesis (midrash) which had accumulated in the Pharisee academies. ~ Maccoby.

Who in their wildest dreams could come up with Luke 7:28? It is such a off the wall comment, so degrading to women. If it’s the truth it’s the truth and I’m an abrasive person who can make abrasive comments if they are true….

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Truth is stranger then fiction.

Sounds like you probably need to look into this one more.

Are you trying to tell yourself that someone made this up?
I like you and wish you the best in your quest for peace dealing with this subject.
I knew as early as a 3rd grader that the Baptist church was not right, that is where we went because of my stepdad.
I have a testament from the Holy Ghost that Jesus is my lord and savior and died for all.
I know other people don’t and they are lost in this world, no matter how much I try I cannot give them any oil from my vessel.

This is what people say to shut down a conversation - - which is fine.

You’re gaslighting me, though, when your comment insinuates I am not at peace regarding this subject.

[Pazooka]

The Pharisees were the grass-roots teachers and local leadership who were drawn from all walks of life.

The Sadducees were the wealthy, elite and collaborators with Rome in the effort to maintain status quo.

Hyam Maccoby’s The Mythmaker. Check out Chapters 3 & 4: The Pharisees and Was Jesus a Pharisee? if you want your mind blown.

Faith in Jesus is precluded by ignorance. Are we Romans or Israelites, today?

https://ia601508.us.archive.org/3/items ... 01-718.pdf

Given you believe Paul was a "fake" apostle. And Mark was the only real gospel and the others faked later. Now you're saying the stories in Mark are incorrect. Do you believe any of the NT? Are you here just to convince others that entire story of Jesus is a lie? Just wanting to understand your position and motivation. Not much NT after removing the books you don't like.

Easy there, cowboy. I never said Mark was the only real gospel and that the others were faked later.

I was saying that most people who have studied the contents of the Gospels agree that Mark was written first (around 70 AD) and that Matthew and Luke used Mark to create their content. The theories behind WHY they did rewrites of Mark differ.

I also pointed out that the Gospels are not contemporary play-by-plays of Jesus’ activities.

Even though it appears that the content of much of the New Testament was editorialized to conform to a Roman world-view and with the aim to place blame on the Jews for the death of Jesus, I agree with Biblical scholars that it is valuable. Did God author it? Of course not. Are they an accurate record? Evidence suggests not.

I am more interested in what Jesus believed than what you believe about Jesus.

[Bronco73idi]

Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem?

This heresy of the Nazoraeans exists in Beroea in the neighbourhood of Coele Syria and the Decapolis in the region of Pella and in Basanitis in the so-called Kokaba (Chochabe in Hebrew). From there it took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said."

— Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8

“Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem? “

I cannot find any evidence that it was Pharisees….

Didn’t the people call Jesus “rabbi” or “teacher”? Are you aware that this was was the Pharisees were?

The Pharisees… regarded the priests not as leaders or spiritual guides, but merely as ceremonial functionaries, who had the job of keeping the Temple sacrifices going and administering the maintenance of the Temple generally. Even the High Priest was regarded as a mere functionary and had no authority to pronounce on matters of religion. It was a Pharisee saying that ‘a learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant High Priest, and most High Priests were in fact regarded by the Pharisees as ignorant.

Instead of the priests, the Pharisees looked for guidance to their own leaders, the hakhamim (sages), who were not a hereditary class but came from every level of society, including the poorest.The hakhamim or rabbis were really lay leaders, who achieved their authority by their ability to master the extensive materials that comprised a Pharisee’s education. This included not only the whole Hebrew Bible, which was regarded as merely the first step in education, but also the whole superstructure of law, history ,science and homiletic exegesis (midrash) which had accumulated in the Pharisee academies. ~ Maccoby.

Who in their wildest dreams could come up with Luke 7:28? It is such a off the wall comment, so degrading to women. If it’s the truth it’s the truth and I’m an abrasive person who can make abrasive comments if they are true….

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Truth is stranger then fiction.

Sounds like you probably need to look into this one more.

Are you trying to tell yourself that someone made this up?
I like you and wish you the best in your quest for peace dealing with this subject.
I knew as early as a 3rd grader that the Baptist church was not right, that is where we went because of my stepdad.
I have a testament from the Holy Ghost that Jesus is my lord and savior and died for all.
I know other people don’t and they are lost in this world, no matter how much I try I cannot give them any oil from my vessel.

This is what people say to shut down a conversation - - which is fine.

You’re gaslighting me, though, when your comment insinuates I am not at peace regarding this subject.

You are saying the Publicans were Pharisees?

Weird

The words gaslighting and narcissists have been around for a long time but when I was a kid, 80’s and 90’s no one used them. It’s almost like a reappearance of victimism brought them back.

When I questioned the Book of Mormon I wasn’t at peace with all the questions. That is standard human psychology…… If a person is questioning everything and even the reason they justify the original question (gospel of Mark) then how can that person be at peace?

Most educated time on earth with the highest suicide rate. I know the lord kept society in the dark until the stick of Ephraim reappeared on this earth. 1840 an earthquake in Turkey uncovered Noah’s ark, cool coincidence?

I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t find any truth in what you are suggesting. I think the author you have cited has damned himself with his thesis, book on this subject.

Those are my opinions based off of my own understanding, intelligence.

[Pazooka]

Based on some of the comments, I thought it might be helpful to post what Wikipedia says about what exactly were the Pharisees. NOTICE how those who favored Hellenization (Herodians) were the Sadducees - mostly because their large fortunes depended on Roman good will. Pharisees were anti-Herodian.

The Pharisees (/ˈfærəsiːz/; Hebrew: פְּרוּשִׁים, romanized: Pərūšīm) were a Jewish social movement and a school of thought in the Levant during the time of Second Temple Judaism. After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Pharisaic beliefs became the foundational, liturgical, and ritualistic basis for Rabbinic Judaism.

Conflicts between Pharisees and Sadducees took place in the context of much broader and longstanding social and religious conflicts among Jews, made worse by the Roman conquest. One conflict was cultural, between those who favored Hellenization (the Sadducees) and those who resisted it (the Pharisees). Another was juridical-religious, between those who emphasized the importance of the Temple with its rites and services, and those who emphasized the importance of other Mosaic Laws. A specifically religious point of conflict involved different interpretations of the Torah and how to apply it to current Jewish life, with Sadducees recognizing only the Written Torah and rejecting Prophets, Writings, and doctrines such as the Oral Torah and the resurrection of the dead.

Josephus (c. 37 – c. 100 CE), believed by many historians to have been a Pharisee, estimated the total Pharisee population before the fall of the Second Temple to be around 6,000.[3] He claimed that the Pharisees’ influence over the common people was so great that anything they said against the king or the high priest was believed,[4] apparently in contrast to the more elite Sadducees, who were the upper class. Pharisees claimed Mosaic authority for their interpretation[5] of Jewish religious law, while Sadducees represented the authority of the priestly privileges and prerogatives established since the days of Solomon, when Zadok, their ancestor, officiated as high priest.

Pharisees are notable by the numerous references to them in the New Testament. While the writers record hostilities between the Pharisees and Jesus, they also reference Pharisees who believed in him, including Nicodemus, who said it is known that Jesus is a teacher sent from God,[6] also Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple,[7] and an unknown number of "those of the party of the Pharisees who believed",[8] among them the Apostle Paul – a student of Gamaliel,[9] who warned the Sanhedrin that opposing the disciples of Jesus could prove to be tantamount to opposing God[10] – even after becoming an apostle of Jesus.[11][12]

[Pazooka]

“Who did Jesus warn to flee from Jerusalem? “

I cannot find any evidence that it was Pharisees….

Didn’t the people call Jesus “rabbi” or “teacher”? Are you aware that this was was the Pharisees were?

The Pharisees… regarded the priests not as leaders or spiritual guides, but merely as ceremonial functionaries, who had the job of keeping the Temple sacrifices going and administering the maintenance of the Temple generally. Even the High Priest was regarded as a mere functionary and had no authority to pronounce on matters of religion. It was a Pharisee saying that ‘a learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant High Priest, and most High Priests were in fact regarded by the Pharisees as ignorant.

Instead of the priests, the Pharisees looked for guidance to their own leaders, the hakhamim (sages), who were not a hereditary class but came from every level of society, including the poorest.The hakhamim or rabbis were really lay leaders, who achieved their authority by their ability to master the extensive materials that comprised a Pharisee’s education. This included not only the whole Hebrew Bible, which was regarded as merely the first step in education, but also the whole superstructure of law, history ,science and homiletic exegesis (midrash) which had accumulated in the Pharisee academies. ~ Maccoby.

Who in their wildest dreams could come up with Luke 7:28? It is such a off the wall comment, so degrading to women. If it’s the truth it’s the truth and I’m an abrasive person who can make abrasive comments if they are true….

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Truth is stranger then fiction.

Sounds like you probably need to look into this one more.

Are you trying to tell yourself that someone made this up?
I like you and wish you the best in your quest for peace dealing with this subject.
I knew as early as a 3rd grader that the Baptist church was not right, that is where we went because of my stepdad.
I have a testament from the Holy Ghost that Jesus is my lord and savior and died for all.
I know other people don’t and they are lost in this world, no matter how much I try I cannot give them any oil from my vessel.

This is what people say to shut down a conversation - - which is fine.

You’re gaslighting me, though, when your comment insinuates I am not at peace regarding this subject.

You are saying the Publicans were Pharisees?

Weird

Where did I say the Publicans had anything to do with Pharisees?

The words gaslighting and narcissists have been around for a long time but when I was a kid, 80’s and 90’s no one used them. It’s almost like a reappearance of victimism brought them back.

I’d say you’ve mastered gaslighting ~ said the “not at peace” person with the victim complex

When I questioned the Book of Mormon I wasn’t at peace with all the questions. That is standard human psychology…… If a person is questioning everything and even the reason they justify the original question (gospel of Mark) then how can that person be at peace?

Most educated time on earth with the highest suicide rate. I know the lord kept society in the dark until the stick of Ephraim reappeared on this earth. 1840 an earthquake in Turkey uncovered Noah’s ark, cool coincidence?

I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t find any truth in what you are suggesting. I think the author you have cited has damned himself with his thesis, book on this subject.

Those are my opinions based off of my own understanding, intelligence.

There is a big ol’ world out there with a breadth of human experience. You have two ears and only one mouth for a reason.

[TheDuke]

The Pharisees were the grass-roots teachers and local leadership who were drawn from all walks of life.

The Sadducees were the wealthy, elite and collaborators with Rome in the effort to maintain status quo.

Hyam Maccoby’s The Mythmaker. Check out Chapters 3 & 4: The Pharisees and Was Jesus a Pharisee? if you want your mind blown.

Faith in Jesus is precluded by ignorance. Are we Romans or Israelites, today?

https://ia601508.us.archive.org/3/items ... 01-718.pdf

Given you believe Paul was a "fake" apostle. And Mark was the only real gospel and the others faked later. Now you're saying the stories in Mark are incorrect. Do you believe any of the NT? Are you here just to convince others that entire story of Jesus is a lie? Just wanting to understand your position and motivation. Not much NT after removing the books you don't like.

Easy there, cowboy. I never said Mark was the only real gospel and that the others were faked later.

I was saying that most people who have studied the contents of the Gospels agree that Mark was written first (around 70 AD) and that Matthew and Luke used Mark to create their content. The theories behind WHY they did rewrites of Mark differ.

I also pointed out that the Gospels are not contemporary play-by-plays of Jesus’ activities.

Even though it appears that the content of much of the New Testament was editorialized to conform to a Roman world-view and with the aim to place blame on the Jews for the death of Jesus, I agree with Biblical scholars that it is valuable. Did God author it? Of course not. Are they an accurate record? Evidence suggests not.

I am more interested in what Jesus believed than what you believe about Jesus.

no problem, just wondering why the shift from a while back. Wondering if I can do anything? I guess not.

[Lynn]

First of all, this is the Freedom Forum. People should be free to share, discuss, or whatnot. People see things from different angles from others sometimes. But there should be civility (being civil & respectful).

Now, just because one reflects certain views or understanding of one group, does not always mean they are of that group. They could have derived it from an earlier source.

As to Nazorites, Nazarenes & such ... a Nazorite is one who takes the vows of Nazor. In this vow, you have options to choose what you are vowing to do or not to do. But one item most hold in common is that they do not allow a razor to cut their hair. Does this mean a pair of scissors does not void the vow? It depends upon the original intention. As to the term Nazarene, it can be applied to one that comes from the town Nazereth or one who is a Nazorite. There is no clarification. But what we do know, is that it is interesting that Jesus & his family were living in Nazareth. It was considered a den of thieves. One of the future disciples noted this because of that saying- "Can anything good come out of Nazareth."

So we have a King who is born, in a cave at an inn in Bethlehem (Jerusalem in the BoM), but many do not realize there were several stages or interpretations. Good example is I could tell someone I am from Houston, but actually live in Katy. I would be correct in either, because Katy is considered an outer suburb of Houston, yet it is also Katy by itself. This "King" is not of the current royal blood. This "King" as he came of age, sought no earthly throne. He did not seek out to rule others. He simply came to comfort & heal those who needed it. He became somewhat of an authority of ticking off the elite, those in charge be it Romans, Jews, or others), including those in religious circles who in simple terms oppressed the common people.

Jesus traveled afar by way of his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, as Uncle Joseph was very rich, but helped others, and traveled quite a bit. He was also considered a tin magnate. Back then, the only source of tin was the UK (Britain).

In the many travels of Jesus, many priests of their religion welcomed him, shared & taught him. Yet, after awhile, Jesus said they had done well & also shared directly to the common people. But whenever he brought a problem to the priests such as in the Far East, they realized if they let him continue his disclosure, the common people could not be swayed as before. So they sought his death. But he always managed to slip away unharmed & go to the next spot down the road. In the far east, he was known as Saint Issa & there are many records of him & his compassion & love for others, as well as justice & equality, be it of race, caste, religion, or in other matters.

The Essenes were a local group there near Jerusalem area that sprang forth due to upcoming prophecies of the Messiah & his Forerunner. The Essenes were part of a much greater brotherhood which operated in many other regions. Sometimes some (or just a single person) from one group would visit another group. However, it is indeed unique that these other groups had prophecies that spoke of two to come. And they knew what signs to watch for. And when the time came near, a few left their area to head to where one was to be born. Such is the case of the 3 wise men, of which there actually may have been other groups of 3 that came to visit.

For instance, in the UK, the prophecies there spoke of Yesu to come. Uncle Joseph brought Mother Mary and also helped some including some of the 12 escape Jerusalem. They wound up in the UK, which protected them & gave them land & more.

You may or may not know of some of this. But it seems from the records of the Far East, it was the Romans who crucified Jesus not the Jews. Yes, there were Jews that were in charge that were trying to either keep Rome off their back, or perhaps thought ill of Jesus. There is one episode of which Roman soldiers discreetly boxed Jesus into a crate & threw him over the wall of Jerusalem. There was a deep gully on one side so it was quite a fall. Jesus was hurt, but survived. John the Beloved was sort of like a road manager for Jesus & the others. He would go ahead to places they hoped to go to, but John would screen or scope out the place beforehand to make sure it was safe for Jesus to come, as the higher ranking Jews & the Romans were looking to somehow discreetly rid themselves of this pest. While it looks like Pilate was the good guy, sadly, you forget, Rome had access to your documents & kept that out of the picture. I am betting you think that surely Joseph Smith would have corrected this in his Revised Bible (Inspired Version or IV of RLDS-CoC, also known as Joseph Smith Translation or JST). However, you can only correct so much at a time. To do too much at one time makes the changes look suspicious. As it is written, here a little, there a little.

Uncle Joseph was on the Sanhedrin & was very powerful due to his wealth & many contacts with other countries. Yet, he was only one on the Sanhedrin. In case you did not know, there are certain rules when retrieving a body such as it the case. Mother Mary could not have, but Uncle Joseph could & did. Other than that, they generally toss the bodies. Had anybody else come to claim Jesus' body, they may not have walked away with their own life, but Uncle Joseph's fame they had to be very careful of.

I am sure many of you are aware of the Shroud of Turin & the controversy continues today, was it the burial cloth of Christ or not. To give you idea of what the Shroud reveals, is very similar to what Jesus did. Not sure how to explain it, but simply put, he burnt his physical body up to replace it by what is referred to as his etheric body. In other words, he ... well anyway, this would explain why there seems to be something extraordinary in the shroud. And certain things are transferred in this, such as puncture wounds. However, the etheric body may not exactly resemble the previous physical body. This would explain several of those he knew that did not recognize his face, but eventually other items that they knew were of Jesus.

Even though I said Jesus was an Essene, John the Baptist was too, in a sense they were not. In other words, these two messengers of the light represent the Sun & Moon (the greater light & the lesser light. Meaning that it was not that they would become Essenes, but were guided in a manner to assist them in their destiny, which is for all of mankind.

In ending, or pausing here for now, I might suggest John 20:30-31 & 21:25.

[Pazooka]

Given you believe Paul was a "fake" apostle. And Mark was the only real gospel and the others faked later. Now you're saying the stories in Mark are incorrect. Do you believe any of the NT? Are you here just to convince others that entire story of Jesus is a lie? Just wanting to understand your position and motivation. Not much NT after removing the books you don't like.

Easy there, cowboy. I never said Mark was the only real gospel and that the others were faked later.

I was saying that most people who have studied the contents of the Gospels agree that Mark was written first (around 70 AD) and that Matthew and Luke used Mark to create their content. The theories behind WHY they did rewrites of Mark differ.

I also pointed out that the Gospels are not contemporary play-by-plays of Jesus’ activities.

Even though it appears that the content of much of the New Testament was editorialized to conform to a Roman world-view and with the aim to place blame on the Jews for the death of Jesus, I agree with Biblical scholars that it is valuable. Did God author it? Of course not. Are they an accurate record? Evidence suggests not.

I am more interested in what Jesus believed than what you believe about Jesus.

no problem, just wondering why the shift from a while back. Wondering if I can do anything? I guess not.

I appreciate it. But sometimes, you get to a place in your searching for truth where you reach an “either…or, but can’t be both” and integrity demands that you make a hard decision.

The irony is that, even though it’s not an irreversible decision, just by virtue of your having chosen integrity instead of cognitive dissonance, you are able to see something you couldn’t have before.

You’re right - it was a shift. It’s been an amazing ride.

[Lynn]

Oh, I just saw that you (Pazooka) asked if I knew a lot about the Essenes. I overlooked that one. I know way more than I share or will share.

In a sense, sort of like what Stan Tenen of the Meru Foundation once stated in 1989 or 1990. He noted he had read all books he could find on the subject matter, including some that supposedly were written by green men, and some written in green ink. In other words, I leave no stone or book unturned.

[Pazooka]

Oh, I just saw that you (Pazooka) asked if I knew a lot about the Essenes. I overlooked that one. I know way more than I share or will share.

In a sense, sort of like what Stan Tenen of the Meru Foundation once stated in 1989 or 1990. He noted he had read all books he could find on the subject matter, including some that supposedly were written by green men, and some written in green ink. In other words, I leave no stone or book unturned.

The difference between a Nazirite and a Nazarene (or Nazorean):

I didn’t read this whole thing to vet it but thought it might help.

https://www.seedofabraham.net/Nazarite-or-Nazarene.pdf