"I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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kirtland r.m.
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"I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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We have evidence that he had a personal interview with the Lord in the Salt Lake Temple. Many years before that experience, as a new member of the church he had this experience.

To a general conference congregation, Elder Snow said: “Brethren and sisters, my testimony is that this is the work of God in which we are engaged. I had not been in this Church two weeks when the Lord revealed to me a knowledge that He was God, and that He sent His Son into the world to be crucified for the sins of the world. No man ever did or ever could receive a more perfect knowledge in regard to the existence of God and of the truth of this work than God gave to me by revelation and the opening of the heavens.”https://www.ldsliving.com/remembering-p ... le/s/94626

“I had no sooner opened my lips in an effort to pray, than I heard a sound, just above my head, like the rustling of silken robes, and immediately the Spirit of God descended upon me, completely enveloping my whole person, filling me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and O, the joy and happiness I felt! No language can describe the instantaneous transition from a dense cloud of mental and spiritual darkness into a refulgence of light and knowledge, as it was at that time imparted to my understanding. I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and of the restoration of the Holy Priesthood, and the fullness of the gospel..."
For more on his early experience see this.https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=ase

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TheDuke
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Sounds like a nice personal revelation. Never heard silk rustling nor do I understand what it means to be overcome with a powerful spirit and have a "perfect knowledge" of so many things from a feeling/sensation. He mentions no voice or understanding. I see much room for getting the spirit to overcome him and mapping it to the fact that god lives, (obviously) and inferring the rest. but, the "perfect knowledge" of the many things in the list, seems like an opinion not a fact stated from the Lord. At least that is how things work between me and the Lord. He comes to answer a prayer and I map all weeks worth of stuff into his simple but beautiful blessing. BTW statements like "fullness of the gospel" cannot even be defined, described or understood, let alone testified to by the Lord.

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Telavian
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

Post by Telavian »

This seems like a baptism of fire event that a lot of Christians describe. Nothing unique to LDS at all.

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

Post by kirtland r.m. »

Telavian wrote: April 26th, 2023, 11:18 pm This seems like a baptism of fire event that a lot of Christians describe. Nothing unique to LDS at all.
Oh, but it is. You brought up other Christians. Many of those would say that Lorenzo Snow couldn't possibly have had an event like this because Mormons are not Christians. Secondly, in his telling he says I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and of the restoration of the Holy Priesthood, and the fullness of the gospel.And last but not least, Most other Christians(some do) from other faiths do not claim "a baptism of fire event". I could write more about this, but I post enough on this last subject to suffice for now.

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Niemand
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

Post by Niemand »

kirtland r.m. wrote: April 27th, 2023, 12:55 am
Telavian wrote: April 26th, 2023, 11:18 pm This seems like a baptism of fire event that a lot of Christians describe. Nothing unique to LDS at all.
Oh, but it is. You brought up other Christians. Many of those would say that Lorenzo Snow couldn't possibly have had an event like this because Mormons are not Christians. Secondly, in his telling he says I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and of the restoration of the Holy Priesthood, and the fullness of the gospel.And last but not least, Most other Christians(some do) from other faiths do not claim "a baptism of fire event". I could write more about this, but I post enough on this last subject to suffice for now.
Pentecostals and Charismatics claim to have them all the time.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

Post by Ymarsakar »

kirtland r.m. wrote: April 27th, 2023, 12:55 am
Telavian wrote: April 26th, 2023, 11:18 pm This seems like a baptism of fire event that a lot of Christians describe. Nothing unique to LDS at all.
Oh, but it is. You brought up other Christians. Many of those would say that Lorenzo Snow couldn't possibly have had an event like this because Mormons are not Christians. Secondly, in his telling he says I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and of the restoration of the Holy Priesthood, and the fullness of the gospel.And last but not least, Most other Christians(some do) from other faiths do not claim "a baptism of fire event". I could write more about this, but I post enough on this last subject to suffice for now.
Trying to figure out who thinks each other are christians, while in a sect, got complicated, so I stopped paying attention to those human shenanigans.

The Indians may interpret this as a samadhi experience or a kind of light or pseudo enlightenment, temporary state of being.

A testimony of something is usually mostly valid when it is a personal experience, and then becomes not a testimony but an act of faith if someone tries to base it off of a rote memorization or teaching from a human made organization. It goes from the knowledge of truthful experience to a wish/desire to see a belief as truthful.

The testimony merely switches from "I know this happened" to "I wish the Gospel was shown to me". The basic definition of the Gospel is the good news that humanity is no longer condemned to be forever lost, that a way has been provided to go back home.

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Niemand
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Ymarsakar wrote: April 27th, 2023, 3:47 amThe Indians may interpret this as a samadhi experience or a kind of light or pseudo enlightenment, temporary state of being.

A testimony of something is usually mostly valid when it is a personal experience, and then becomes not a testimony but an act of faith if someone tries to base it off of a rote memorization or teaching from a human made organization. It goes from the knowledge of truthful experience to a wish/desire to see a belief as truthful.
My problem with many LDS testimonies that they tend to be scripted or forced.

Yes, I have heard Hindus and shrinks try and explain the Holy Ghost. Because Mormons get baptised so young they associate any enjoyable feelings with the Holy Ghost which is not the way to go. But when Indian gurus try and explain such things away, they often talk about something different .. baptism of the Holy Ghost is not "temporary enlightment", samadhi or satori at all, because these experiences are not a feeling of non-duality or infinite knowledge for many people. One can read accounts from both sides carefully and see some differences. (There has been some cross-pollination between the religions of east and west. It was not a one way traffic either. Hindu nationalists will try and tell you India invented everything, yet Indian religions absorbed influences from the west thousands of years ago. Certainly Greek philosophy BC and Christianity pre-500 AD. Hinducentrists will deny this adamantly.)

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Ymarsakar
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

Post by Ymarsakar »

Niemand wrote: April 27th, 2023, 4:27 am
Ymarsakar wrote: April 27th, 2023, 3:47 amThe Indians may interpret this as a samadhi experience or a kind of light or pseudo enlightenment, temporary state of being.

A testimony of something is usually mostly valid when it is a personal experience, and then becomes not a testimony but an act of faith if someone tries to base it off of a rote memorization or teaching from a human made organization. It goes from the knowledge of truthful experience to a wish/desire to see a belief as truthful.
My problem with many LDS testimonies that they tend to be scripted or forced.

Yes, I have heard Hindus and shrinks try and explain the Holy Ghost. Because Mormons get baptised so young they associate any enjoyable feelings with the Holy Ghost which is not the way to go. But when Indian gurus try and explain such things away, they often talk about something different .. baptism of the Holy Ghost is not "temporary enlightment", samadhi or satori at all, because these experiences are not a feeling of non-duality or infinite knowledge for many people. One can read accounts from both sides carefully and see some differences. (There has been some cross-pollination between the religions of east and west. It was not a one way traffic either. Hindu nationalists will try and tell you India invented everything, yet Indian religions absorbed influences from the west thousands of years ago. Certainly Greek philosophy BC and Christianity pre-500 AD. Hinducentrists will deny this adamantly.)
"baptism of the Holy Ghost is not "temporary enlightment", samadhi or satori at all, because these experiences are not a feeling of non-duality or infinite knowledge for many people."

This is due more to the ego perceptions and filters everyone has. Even prophets will "translate" or "filter" what they get through their own language and social norms.

The Indians train in transcendental meditation and to suppress the ego. Many post life experiencers, aka near death, will come back to life and take a very long term to translate their experience into a human language. They often immediately don't know how to word it, because the experience was not human to begin with, it had no anchors in the human experience.

The same is true of the Holy Spirit. It can only give you what you are capable of receiving, anything more and your body really might be on fire. I would then say that the Indians use meditation to suppress the ego, so what they receive is more Divine in terms of how they feel. Whereas Snow was more religious, so he interpreted the Holy Spirit through the lens of religious icons and language. Or in other words, his ego created this religious construct and that was the only way he could interpret God as.

I personally experienced both stages from 2016 to 2019. And it was not so much temporary as I could switch it off finally in 2020. Meaning, I experienced something akin to what Snow experienced and I even interpreted it similarly. But then it clarified and upgraded itself into the satori/samadhi, but unlike the Indian version of samadhi that they could only maintain/upkeep for a few days weeks or months. I maintained it for years on end.

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Niemand
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Ymarsakar wrote: April 27th, 2023, 4:47 amThis is due more to the ego perceptions and filters everyone has. Even prophets will "translate" or "filter" what they get through their own language and social norms.
I've read accounts from both sides and they don't match up at all. Some Buddhists claim very few people gain enlightenment in any given period. Some think Gautama is the only one to gain it within the historic period. Most Buddhists and Hindus suggest a lot of work must be put into spiritual practice to gain this. Many Christians, in contrast, tend to suggest that not much actual effort need be put into such a thing, it is more a matter of faith.

Buddhism and Hinduism are also far more works-based than Christianity is, even in its RC and Orthodox varieties. Dharmic religions are riddled with false exits and the philosophies of men, in their traditional forms. They can be very doctrinaire. I rate some forms more highly than others e.g. Advaita, but the same could be said about Christianity. I see little evidence that most self-described Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc have the more profound experiences. (When I say Christians here, I am including work-a-day Roman Catholics, Protestants etc who inherit their religion.)

I don't think it is necessarily about cultural filters at all. Many of these people having these experiences have had little previous knowledge of the other, so quite the opposite is happening. I have seen some Dharmic-style practices occur in churches, e.g. making people fall over by pressing their foreheads.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Niemand wrote: April 27th, 2023, 5:06 am
Ymarsakar wrote: April 27th, 2023, 4:47 amThis is due more to the ego perceptions and filters everyone has. Even prophets will "translate" or "filter" what they get through their own language and social norms.
I've read accounts from both sides and they don't match up at all. Some Buddhists claim very few people gain enlightenment in any given period. Some think Gautama is the only one to gain it within the historic period. Most Buddhists and Hindus suggest a lot of work must be put into spiritual practice to gain this. Many Christians, in contrast, tend to suggest that not much actual effort need be put into such a thing, it is more a matter of faith.

Buddhism and Hinduism are also far more works-based than Christianity is, even in its RC and Orthodox varieties. Dharmic religions are riddled with false exits and the philosophies of men, in their traditional forms. They can be very doctrinaire. I rate some forms more highly than others e.g. Advaita, but the same could be said about Christianity. I see little evidence that most self-described Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc have the more profound experiences. (When I say Christians here, I am including work-a-day Roman Catholics, Protestants etc who inherit their religion.)

I don't think it is necessarily about cultural filters at all. Many of these people having these experiences have had little previous knowledge of the other, so quite the opposite is happening. I have seen some Dharmic-style practices occur in churches, e.g. making people fall over by pressing their foreheads.
There's no reason for it to match up. You are reading accounts by people who read of other people experiencing these states of being.

Because the number of people that have experienced it and who talk about it, are statistically immaterial. They don't work for a scholarly investigation, so to speak, but are merely anecdotal.

"Many of these people having these experiences have had little previous knowledge of the other, so quite the opposite is happening."

By cultural filter, I don't mean cross culture but the culture they were raised/born in.

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Niemand
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Ymarsakar wrote: April 27th, 2023, 5:08 am
Niemand wrote: April 27th, 2023, 5:06 am
Ymarsakar wrote: April 27th, 2023, 4:47 amThis is due more to the ego perceptions and filters everyone has. Even prophets will "translate" or "filter" what they get through their own language and social norms.
I've read accounts from both sides and they don't match up at all. Some Buddhists claim very few people gain enlightenment in any given period. Some think Gautama is the only one to gain it within the historic period. Most Buddhists and Hindus suggest a lot of work must be put into spiritual practice to gain this. Many Christians, in contrast, tend to suggest that not much actual effort need be put into such a thing, it is more a matter of faith.

Buddhism and Hinduism are also far more works-based than Christianity is, even in its RC and Orthodox varieties. Dharmic religions are riddled with false exits and the philosophies of men, in their traditional forms. They can be very doctrinaire. I rate some forms more highly than others e.g. Advaita, but the same could be said about Christianity. I see little evidence that most self-described Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc have the more profound experiences. (When I say Christians here, I am including work-a-day Roman Catholics, Protestants etc who inherit their religion.)

I don't think it is necessarily about cultural filters at all. Many of these people having these experiences have had little previous knowledge of the other, so quite the opposite is happening. I have seen some Dharmic-style practices occur in churches, e.g. making people fall over by pressing their foreheads.
There's no reason for it to match up. You are reading accounts by people who read of other people experiencing these states of being.

Because the number of people that have experienced it and who talk about it, are statistically immaterial. They don't work for a scholarly investigation, so to speak, but are merely anecdotal.

"Many of these people having these experiences have had little previous knowledge of the other, so quite the opposite is happening."

By cultural filter, I don't mean cross culture but the culture they were raised/born in.
On the contrary, I've read accounts of spiritual experiences from very different cultures, which did match up. There are witchdoctors in southern Africa that go into very similar states as shamans in Siberia. Those people would have had different cultures (maybe some Christian or Islamic influence) but described some of the same things.

NDEs often have a number of common elements. Not necessarily the fine detail, but certainly the out of the body experience, tunnel of light, presence and "tour" crop up in multiple unconnected cultures. It is worth pointing out some of those pop up in some form in supposed alien abductions (although few people would ever connect the two.)
They don't work for a scholarly investigation, so to speak, but are merely anecdotal.
I can't disagree with this. Most western academia starts from the wrong point on this issue anyway. About all that they will be able to determine are physiological or chemical causes of certain experiences. In my reading, I tend to find that they conflate unrelated issues and get things horribly wrong, since for academics to admit having these experiences themselves is a no-no and career death.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

Post by Ymarsakar »

Niemand wrote: April 27th, 2023, 5:33 am
Ymarsakar wrote: April 27th, 2023, 5:08 am
Niemand wrote: April 27th, 2023, 5:06 am

I've read accounts from both sides and they don't match up at all. Some Buddhists claim very few people gain enlightenment in any given period. Some think Gautama is the only one to gain it within the historic period. Most Buddhists and Hindus suggest a lot of work must be put into spiritual practice to gain this. Many Christians, in contrast, tend to suggest that not much actual effort need be put into such a thing, it is more a matter of faith.

Buddhism and Hinduism are also far more works-based than Christianity is, even in its RC and Orthodox varieties. Dharmic religions are riddled with false exits and the philosophies of men, in their traditional forms. They can be very doctrinaire. I rate some forms more highly than others e.g. Advaita, but the same could be said about Christianity. I see little evidence that most self-described Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc have the more profound experiences. (When I say Christians here, I am including work-a-day Roman Catholics, Protestants etc who inherit their religion.)

I don't think it is necessarily about cultural filters at all. Many of these people having these experiences have had little previous knowledge of the other, so quite the opposite is happening. I have seen some Dharmic-style practices occur in churches, e.g. making people fall over by pressing their foreheads.
There's no reason for it to match up. You are reading accounts by people who read of other people experiencing these states of being.

Because the number of people that have experienced it and who talk about it, are statistically immaterial. They don't work for a scholarly investigation, so to speak, but are merely anecdotal.

"Many of these people having these experiences have had little previous knowledge of the other, so quite the opposite is happening."

By cultural filter, I don't mean cross culture but the culture they were raised/born in.
On the contrary, I've read accounts of spiritual experiences from very different cultures, which did match up. There are witchdoctors in southern Africa that go into very similar states as shamans in Siberia. Those people would have had different cultures (maybe some Christian or Islamic influence) but described some of the same things.

NDEs often have a number of common elements. Not necessarily the fine detail, but certainly the out of the body experience, tunnel of light, presence and "tour" crop up in multiple unconnected cultures. It is worth pointing out some of those pop up in some form in supposed alien abductions (although few people would ever connect the two.)
They don't work for a scholarly investigation, so to speak, but are merely anecdotal.
I can't disagree with this. Most western academia starts from the wrong point on this issue anyway. About all that they will be able to determine are physiological or chemical causes of certain experiences. In my reading, I tend to find that they conflate unrelated issues and get things horribly wrong, since for academics to admit having these experiences themselves is a no-no and career death.
"On the contrary, I've read accounts of spiritual experiences from very different cultures, which did match up. There are witchdoctors in southern Africa that go into very similar states as shamans in Siberia. Those people would have had different cultures (maybe some Christian or Islamic influence) but described some of the same things."

That simply means their methodology is similar in accessing the same astral plane/layer of consciousness.

But people who access this realm are not receiving the Holy Spirit or enlightenment, rather it is a variation of their psi gift so to speak. Some people are more sensitive to the spirit world (they see dead people as a child). Others obtain this sensitivity via rituals and drugs (meditation, magick, religious ecstasy, faith, etc)

Are they now enlightened afterwards? Are they like Christ or a disciple of Christ? They are improved, yes, but they don't become automatically like somebody different. They are still them.


Altered states of consciousness do tend to relate to each other, but there's no reason one altered state needs to match up to another altered state. Nor does it mean another altered state is X if they do match up.

THe reason why you will not find the truth in reading about accounts is because second hand accounts is not sufficient. Until you actually experience these different states, as I have, the degree to which you will understand them will be sealed/blocked. For your own good of course.

It is much akin to when the missionaries told me to read the Book of Mormon and pray/ask god if it is true. Just because Joseph and others thought it was true, doesn't mean I can use that as a crutch instead of having my own experience of it.

These altered states of consciousness, which is described in many ways and can be reached in many ways, is not something people can obtain an understanding of by reading in the human language.

So Nie, are you ready for the next level? Do you want to experience these states you have only read of before?

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TheChristian
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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I encountered Jesus of Nazerath in a prison cell, when I left prison and went back to my home town the police were awaiting for me and told me to get back on the bus and leave town or they would do me great harm.
That night I slept in a burnt out derelict building, and so I prayed, again that wonderous influence fell apon me , lifting up my weary soul, I could not ascend heaven, so heaven came down to me.
I could go on recounting such visitations of grace and mercy, but let me assure one and all, it is only in Jesus of Nazerath can a man obtain true happiness, there is no other way.
And so I stand by Jesus, for in my youth I tasted of His love and tenderest of mercies.

King David said...
Oh Lord when your Spirit falls apon me,
I could jump over a mountain and run thru an army"

Such is the joy, vibrancy, vitality, Glory and almighty power that falls apon one, bringing with such glory an all consuming, unconditional love and witness to ones very core that Jesus of Nazerath is a living reality.
And all without a word being spoken I learned Oh so much, but most important of all that Christ Jesus loved me so much, ever so much.
Those that have experienced that New testament day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost fell apon the Disciples in Jerusalem will understand what I am attempting to say and will joyfully say Amen in their hearts.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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TheChristian wrote: April 27th, 2023, 8:40 am I encountered Jesus of Nazerath in a prison cell, when I left prison and went back to my home town the police were awaiting for me and told me to get back on the bus and leave town or they would do me great harm.
That night I slept in a burnt out derelict building, and so I prayed, again that wonderous influence fell apon me , lifting up my weary soul, I could not ascend heaven, so heaven came down to me.
I could go on recounting such visitations of grace and mercy, but let me assure one and all, it is only in Jesus of Nazerath can a man obtain true happiness, there is no other way.
And so I stand by Jesus, for in my youth I tasted of His love and tenderest of mercies.

King David said...
Oh Lord when your Spirit falls apon me,
I could jump over a mountain and run thru an army"

Such is the joy, vibrancy, vitality, Glory and almighty power that falls apon one, bringing with such glory an all consuming, unconditional love and witness to ones very core that Jesus of Nazerath is a living reality.
And all without a word being spoken I learned Oh so much, but most important of all that Christ Jesus loved me so much, ever so much.
Those that have experienced that New testament day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost fell apon the Disciples in Jerusalem will understand what I am attempting to say and will joyfully say Amen in their hearts.
Amen!!!
Don't get me started brother, because I'm feeling it this morning!! My customers today are gonna get lots of Jesus talk from me,(like they do everyday, I can't help it 😁) ... And it because I love my customers, they're simply my customers.... BUT THEY ARE HIS SHEEP, and I love Him and I love His sheep. I want His sheep to know how much He loves and beckons them to return to Him.....
I love your testimony of Jesus, TheChristian. 🙏🙏

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TheDuke
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Obviously there are many that confuse good internal balancing with the Holy Ghost. there are many spirits out there. I just had a discussion with one person who doesn't know what the HG is, but says I don't as well. I find that interesting. Hard to tell anyone else they don't know what spirit they are following, not my problem but once in a while the spirit just says call a spade a spade.

As, I said, I firmly feel the Lord via the LoC or his Spirit or HG teaches us many things. Like in the OP, if we're praying about something and get a powerful response we often feel it is to exactly what we were praying about. It sure may be so. Especially if we are wise and praying about one thing and something specific. But, the OP smacks of a man praying for many things at once. Which is ok. Getting a response and assuming it means ALL of the things are now "perfect knowledge". I accept perfect knowledge that the Lord lives, the rest would need more facts. Like god's voice or some vision, or something. For me to take it as written. I'm not doubting anything, but pretty tired of historical stories like this that are like blankets covering everything with little substance. I'm sure Lorenzo was a great man and what he gained from this may or may not have changed his life for the good. If so, thank god for it. But, I stick with my statement from above. I have been through the same. So, was JS. He would get a revelation and assume all the details were correct. See how it worked out, banking, stores, Kirtland, Nauvoo, Mo, Zion's camp, etc... I fully believe he was getting revelation, but it seems that sometime, like Lorenzo, he accepted more than the Lord offered.

Also, I liked the posts above that try and separate Jesus and HG from other spiritual experiences. I don't like to see them so vaguely compared. All, have access to the Light of Truth, or even Spiritual Light for that matter (LoT being from god only). Layered on it are LoC and HG and Jesus' spirit, etc... I feel Jesus surely can come to anyone in spirit, as well as the HG, but eastern religions don't believe in the HG or Jesus, so, comparing them seems a bit risky. Especially by the many eastern religion experts we have on the forum and their deep, deep knowledge of eastern terms but lack depth in what it means. Just my whining. I truly only know Jesus, the Father, the Spirit, the HG and even Heavenly Mother, never got a revelation from anyone else to my knowledge. Dont' want to really either.

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

Post by kirtland r.m. »

Niemand wrote: April 27th, 2023, 2:46 am
kirtland r.m. wrote: April 27th, 2023, 12:55 am
Telavian wrote: April 26th, 2023, 11:18 pm This seems like a baptism of fire event that a lot of Christians describe. Nothing unique to LDS at all.
Oh, but it is. You brought up other Christians. Many of those would say that Lorenzo Snow couldn't possibly have had an event like this because Mormons are not Christians. Secondly, in his telling he says I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and of the restoration of the Holy Priesthood, and the fullness of the gospel.And last but not least, Most other Christians(some do) from other faiths do not claim "a baptism of fire event". I could write more about this, but I post enough on this last subject to suffice for now.
Pentecostals and Charismatics claim to have them all the time.
Pentecostals and Charismatics often do some very strange things too. Snake handling is only one of them.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_han ... ristianity

Here is another, anyone heard the term Holy Roller?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roller

The following is from a Baptist, God’s Spirit or Human Hysteria? My Time Among the Charismatics
It’s a vast understatement, then, to say the charismatic experience was brand new for me.

On the first night, I heard numerous messages in tongues. I witnessed seemingly uncontrollable laughter (“Holy Ghost laughter,” they called it), fainting spells, intense weeping and wailing, prophecies ranging from predictions of deliverance from headaches and cancer to forecasts of God’s wrath on select American cities. I watched a man and woman run laps around the sanctuary. In the corner, a younger man bounced up and down, convulsing as if he’d grabbed hold of a live electrical wire. In a pew behind me, a woman was engaged in what appeared to be jumping jacks, arms windmilling vigorously as she praised the Lord.

At one point, an older woman asked if I’d like to have hands laid on me to have my needs met. Despite significant neediness, I nervously declined.

After a couple of these meetings, my friend—a continuationist—sought my impressions. I expressed deep discomfort with what I’d seen, but admitted I wasn’t certain whether such manifestations represented a genuine work of the Spirit. I was skeptical but didn’t want to dismiss all I’d seen as purely carnal for fear of opposing a work of God.

He posed another excellent question: “If we aren’t really speaking in tongues, and if the Holy Spirit isn’t causing people to faint and act that way, what are we doing, then?” I told him I wasn’t sure, and today, though I remain a fairly convinced cessationist, I still wonder what’s behind such profound agitations of the body and emotions. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... rismatics/

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Niemand
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

Post by Niemand »

kirtland r.m. wrote: April 27th, 2023, 6:49 pmPentecostals and Charismatics often do some very strange things too. Snake handling is only one of them.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_han ... ristianity
They don't "often" do that at all. I've attended numerous such services, not a snake in sight.

You will however meet plenty of people who claim to have had the baptism of fire.

As for strange things, that depends on your POV. Some Pentecostal services are wilder than others. It is worth pointing out some of the early Mormons did such things, like speaking in tongues in services, translating foreign languages which they had never learnt formally etc. They were wild in comparison to the bland, correlated services of today. As you well know, since you are au fait with the old sources, early Mormons saw grand visions, met angels and did all kinds of things that you won't hear about in recent conferences. Instead, we get anecdotes about scalpels getting chucked around operating theatres, and the upper echelons of Lufthansa.

We should be instructing members to bless their homes (a form of exorcism) and how to use the power and authority of the priesthood in righteous causes (which should not be for our own benefit in most cases). Instead, we just get told to put up and shut up and obey worldly authority. Modern miracles are possible. I have experienced very few myself compared to some people, but I have mentioned on here how I used my priesthood to command a thunderstorm to stop after it had been raging for hours during the night (which is unusual here, they are usually much shorter)... and it ceased within five minutes. It was a severe one too, which set a couple of buildings on fire, as I found out later from news reports.
On the first night, I heard numerous messages in tongues. I witnessed seemingly uncontrollable laughter (“Holy Ghost laughter,” they called it), fainting spells, intense weeping and wailing, prophecies ranging from predictions of deliverance from headaches and cancer to forecasts of God’s wrath on select American cities.
They certainly lack discipline, that's for sure. But it is possible to find descriptions of early Mormonism decrying them for such wild behaviour. It is a common pattern. Did you know early Methodism had signs of the spirit? Or the early Quakers? Now both of those groups have been infiltrated by Trojan Horse theologies, if they can be called that, which are antichrist, and they are haemorrhaging members. Even some Presbyterians, centuries ago, stern as they may seem now, had such experiences. John Wesley used to say prayers for his horse when it got sick. A Mormon would be embarrassed to do such a thing in public.

As for those forecasts of wrath... I have no doubt some of those were indeed false, but God has allowed things to happen to America and the rest of the western world in the last twenty or so years. We are ruled by unelected conferences and ginger groups, rich and powerful interests which are not what they pretend.
At one point, an older woman asked if I’d like to have hands laid on me to have my needs met. Despite significant neediness, I nervously declined.
I was chatting to a church member last year. She told me a story about a sister who was severely sick, when some people came to visit her and offer her a blessing in hospital. She recovered rapidly after that and the doctors were baffled at the remission of her cancer.

There's only one problem with this story. The people who blessed her were not LDS. They happened to be seeing someone else in the hospital, and passing by her they felt prompted to offer her a prayer, which she accepted. She never saw them again. It was one of the most dramatic healing stories I've heard in the LDS in recent times, but if you mentioned it over the pulpit, it'd be frowned upon because the people who said the prayer were non-LDS Christians and did not go through the "correct" procedure of the priesthood. I do not think this was "counterfeit" nor the work of Satan. It is the kind of story that the LDS church likes to tell about itself, but which rarely happens in reality.
After a couple of these meetings, my friend—a continuationist—sought my impressions. I expressed deep discomfort with what I’d seen, but admitted I wasn’t certain whether such manifestations represented a genuine work of the Spirit. I was skeptical but didn’t want to dismiss all I’d seen as purely carnal for fear of opposing a work of God.
Some of those manifestations will have been of God, and some wouldn't have been. We are given the Holy Ghost ourselves to discern such things.

There is an old saying that, "wherever God builds a church, the Devil builds a chapel nearby."

We see a lot of fakery in the modern LDS although we supposedly believe in continuing revelation. If we have miracles, they must be within approved parameters. If they are mentioned in General Conference, they are shorn of all references that would put them in context or verify them. We cannot have revelation for someone else in the ward, we have to go to the top for that.

Nowadays, we have the LDS church openly siding with worldly organisations such as UNICEF, UNESCO and GAVI which support abortion and all kinds of other ungodly practices. I'm not even talking about the shadier affiliations of Eubank and Rasband, but what it openly collects for at Christmastime. They were also horribly wrong about many things Covid-related. I can vouch personally for dozens of cases in my ward where people took reactions to the injections the FP called a "godsend". (Despite being produced with foetal cell lines.)

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Ymarsakar
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Niemand wrote: April 28th, 2023, 4:20 am Nowadays, we have the LDS church openly siding with worldly organisations such as UNICEF, UNESCO and GAVI which support abortion and all kinds of other ungodly practices. I'm not even talking about the shadier affiliations of Eubank and Rasband, but what it openly collects for at Christmastime. They were also horribly wrong about many things Covid-related. I can vouch personally for dozens of cases in my ward where people took reactions to the injections the FP called a "godsend". (Despite being produced with foetal cell lines.)
In many ways, people are called upon to answer to their covenant as a disciple of christ.

Will they be able to forgive these for they did not know what they were doing? And what if they did know what they were doing, would they be able to adopt Christ's power to forgive?

This is a kind of graduation test, and it is not something I or the saints can interfere with much.

As for those who have not chosen to be a disciple of christ, that's fine too. God has all kinds of tests designed specifically for you, personally. Because if you think the NSA is spying on you, wait until you realize what the ALl Seeing Eye of the ALmighty saw ; )

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TheChristian
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Saying of Jesus of Nazerath.

Jesus our Lord holds no man back that comes unto Him........When little groups of christians gather and enjoin in united sincere prayer, confessing their sins, rest assured Christ is in their midst and He blesses them in great abundance .......
He forgives their sins, removes their burdens, wipes away their tears, the sick are healed, men and women begin to experience Pentecost as the Spirit falls apon them, they arise with utter joy and speak in other tongues, praying and praising God in such, just as the 120 disciples were so blessed in the upper room in Jerusalem.........

“And it shall come to pass in the last days,
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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More vague allusions. Completely ambiguous when compared to Joseph Smith's testimony and the testimonies of all the prophets in the scriptures.

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TheChristian
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Two accounts of very dear friends of mine, one is Denis a Born Again Christian, the other is Jim whom at the time of his dramatic healing was a Christian seeking a church to settle down in.....

The hindoo family took their daughter up to the alter to be prayed for......
A young Scottish Christian Denis Beedie , put his hands apon the hindoo woman in the wheelchair and called apon Jesus to heal her..........
She arose from the wheelchair completely healed of an incurable malady..........
Jim was a seeker of truth, he attended a christian crusade set up by an american born again preacher in N/E scotland.........
The preacher laid his hands apon Jim and he was immediatly healed of an incurable back problem.....
Such wonders, signs, healings and casting out of devils are to be witnessed amongst the varied groups of Christians today..........
Speaking in tongues are occuring amongst christians of many diverse congregations, churchs once dull and lifeless are beginning to experience the day of Pentecost in their midst, all in fullfillment of ancient prophecy............
Something wonderfull is happening for it is occuring all over the earth spontaneously and thru this outpouring of Gods grace the Christians once so fragmented are beginning to rally around the foot of the cross and unite, casting aside their differences thru their common bond of love for Jesus and what He done for them there............
Its as if the Lord is drawing them together as He is drawing the Israelites back to Jerusalem in preparation in these last days for His return to this earth....

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Ymarsakar
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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TheChristian wrote: April 28th, 2023, 11:35 am Two accounts of very dear friends of mine, one is Denis a Born Again Christian, the other is Jim whom at the time of his dramatic healing was a Christian seeking a church to settle down in.....

The hindoo family took their daughter up to the alter to be prayed for......
A young Scottish Christian Denis Beedie , put his hands apon the hindoo woman in the wheelchair and called apon Jesus to heal her..........
She arose from the wheelchair completely healed of an incurable malady..........
Jim was a seeker of truth, he attended a christian crusade set up by an american born again preacher in N/E scotland.........
The preacher laid his hands apon Jim and he was immediatly healed of an incurable back problem.....
Such wonders, signs, healings and casting out of devils are to be witnessed amongst the varied groups of Christians today..........
Speaking in tongues are occuring amongst christians of many diverse congregations, churchs once dull and lifeless are beginning to experience the day of Pentecost in their midst, all in fullfillment of ancient prophecy............
Something wonderfull is happening for it is occuring all over the earth spontaneously and thru this outpouring of Gods grace the Christians once so fragmented are beginning to rally around the foot of the cross and unite, casting aside their differences thru their common bond of love for Jesus and what He done for them there............
Its as if the Lord is drawing them together as He is drawing the Israelites back to Jerusalem in preparation in these last days for His return to this earth....
I am curious about how long these who were healed, how long did they love afterwards?

Live noy love

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FrankOne
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Niemand wrote: April 27th, 2023, 5:06 am
Ymarsakar wrote: April 27th, 2023, 4:47 amThis is due more to the ego perceptions and filters everyone has. Even prophets will "translate" or "filter" what they get through their own language and social norms.
I've read accounts from both sides and they don't match up at all. Some Buddhists claim very few people gain enlightenment in any given period. Some think Gautama is the only one to gain it within the historic period. Most Buddhists and Hindus suggest a lot of work must be put into spiritual practice to gain this. Many Christians, in contrast, tend to suggest that not much actual effort need be put into such a thing, it is more a matter of faith.

Buddhism and Hinduism are also far more works-based than Christianity is, even in its RC and Orthodox varieties. Dharmic religions are riddled with false exits and the philosophies of men, in their traditional forms. They can be very doctrinaire. I rate some forms more highly than others e.g. Advaita, but the same could be said about Christianity. I see little evidence that most self-described Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc have the more profound experiences. (When I say Christians here, I am including work-a-day Roman Catholics, Protestants etc who inherit their religion.)

I don't think it is necessarily about cultural filters at all. Many of these people having these experiences have had little previous knowledge of the other, so quite the opposite is happening. I have seen some Dharmic-style practices occur in churches, e.g. making people fall over by pressing their foreheads.
It appears to me that the religion or belief system is almost irrelevant. Some people are born into this world to reach higher levels of spiritual understanding. Doctrine and ritual are irrelevant to those that walk the narrow path because those few don't have to try to be unselfish or "righteous", they are born that way and to take the next steps is very natural to them. The living of a life of asceticism isn't necessary . LDS teachings are actually quite ascetic. The LDS way, in general, is to earn your way to heaven through self discipline.

Buddha, of course walked the ascetic path at first and found it to be futile. It's about letting go of the bodily concepts and attachments.

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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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kirtland r.m. wrote: April 26th, 2023, 9:27 pm We have evidence that he had a personal interview with the Lord in the Salt Lake Temple. Many years before that experience, as a new member of the church he had this experience.

To a general conference congregation, Elder Snow said: “Brethren and sisters, my testimony is that this is the work of God in which we are engaged. I had not been in this Church two weeks when the Lord revealed to me a knowledge that He was God, and that He sent His Son into the world to be crucified for the sins of the world. No man ever did or ever could receive a more perfect knowledge in regard to the existence of God and of the truth of this work than God gave to me by revelation and the opening of the heavens.”https://www.ldsliving.com/remembering-p ... le/s/94626

“I had no sooner opened my lips in an effort to pray, than I heard a sound, just above my head, like the rustling of silken robes, and immediately the Spirit of God descended upon me, completely enveloping my whole person, filling me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and O, the joy and happiness I felt! No language can describe the instantaneous transition from a dense cloud of mental and spiritual darkness into a refulgence of light and knowledge, as it was at that time imparted to my understanding. I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and of the restoration of the Holy Priesthood, and the fullness of the gospel..."
For more on his early experience see this.https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=ase
These accounts have one thing in common: they play on the hopes of the listener that someone out there has seen God. People are desperate to connect with heaven. They're desperate to assure themselves that there is life after life. That there is a God in heaven. These stories play on those hopes and dreams by saying something like "I had an experience that transcends the mortal world" or "There is nothing that could be closer to the opening of the heavens than what happened to me." etc. Lorenzo does the same thing. He plays on the hopes and dreams of others:

"No man ever did or ever could receive a more perfect knowledge in regard to the existence of God and of the truth of this work than God gave to me by revelation and the opening of the heavens.”

Then everyone who is hoping for some sort of connection is made whole by the "almost" words of Lorenzo or whomever is making the claims. Notice that in these stories no one ever says God stood before me. Jesus let me touch the nail prints in his hands. Etc. etc. etc. Its always "No man ever did or ever could receive a more perfect knowledge in regard to the existence of God and of the truth of this work than God gave to me by revelation and the opening of the heavens.” And then he lets the imagination of the hearer fill in all the missing pieces and we end up with all sorts of faith promoting rumors about Jesus walking the temple grounds with church leaders or sitting at the conference room table to make plans about the next pandemic response and how we can convince every member to get the shot.

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TheChristian
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Re: "I then received a perfect knowledge..." Lorenzo Snow

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Ymarsakar wrote: April 28th, 2023, 6:29 pm
TheChristian wrote: April 28th, 2023, 11:35 am Two accounts of very dear friends of mine, one is Denis a Born Again Christian, the other is Jim whom at the time of his dramatic healing was a Christian seeking a church to settle down in.....

The hindoo family took their daughter up to the alter to be prayed for......
A young Scottish Christian Denis Beedie , put his hands apon the hindoo woman in the wheelchair and called apon Jesus to heal her..........
She arose from the wheelchair completely healed of an incurable malady..........
Jim was a seeker of truth, he attended a christian crusade set up by an american born again preacher in N/E scotland.........
The preacher laid his hands apon Jim and he was immediatly healed of an incurable back problem.....
Such wonders, signs, healings and casting out of devils are to be witnessed amongst the varied groups of Christians today..........
Speaking in tongues are occuring amongst christians of many diverse congregations, churchs once dull and lifeless are beginning to experience the day of Pentecost in their midst, all in fullfillment of ancient prophecy............
Something wonderfull is happening for it is occuring all over the earth spontaneously and thru this outpouring of Gods grace the Christians once so fragmented are beginning to rally around the foot of the cross and unite, casting aside their differences thru their common bond of love for Jesus and what He done for them there............
Its as if the Lord is drawing them together as He is drawing the Israelites back to Jerusalem in preparation in these last days for His return to this earth....
I am curious about how long these who were healed, how long did they love afterwards?

Live noy love
A goodly question that deserves a goodly answer.
Denis the born Again Christian has been a lifelong friend, a very, very humble and meek man, a man of much prayer and fasting, indeed on occasions he has fasted Forty days, in the midst of such a lengthy fast he was given by the Saviour a Ministery of healing.
The Hindu woman dramaticly healed was a young woman, a specialist nurse in a specialist ward in london for people with some incurable illness, she fell ill with said illness. After her healing by the Lord thru the ministery of my friend Denis, she became a devout Christian and married my friend Denis, and acompanied him on his ministery to many lands including India, she recently passed away living to a ripe old age.
I personaly sat in their home and she recounted the healing to me.
The other healing of my friend Jim the seeker of a church to settle in was healed in the late 1970s, he was still alive and well in 1993, I last heard of him in around 2010.

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