LDS Freedom Forum

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:54 am

marc wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:43 am Is divorce in all cases wrong? I don't know. I'm ok with not knowing. A neighbor of mine divorced her husband only after wrestling with the Lord for a long time and finally receiving an audible answer while visiting the temple. If I recall correctly, he was very abusive and she struggled with staying and receiving abuse continually or moving on. Today she is remarried with a good man who is a good husband and a good father. I believe Rob would defer to the Lord's answer in her case. She sought out the Lord in this specific matter faithfully and God answered appropriately in this specific case.

I don't think so.
I referenced abuse directly and Rob responded it was still wrong.

Me:
You wrote an article saying divorce in all cases is wrong. The scriptures themselves can be interpreted to say that divorce is okay in cases of "fornication".
Are you saying that divorce is not allowed even if the husband is physically violent or sexually promiscuous?
Should a wife visit the ER weekly if her husband wants to send her there?
Should a wife allow her husband to abuse their children?
Should a wife allow her husband to literally worship an idol and teach her children to do so?

Rob:
“I’m” not saying anything. Im pointing to what Jesus said. He spoke on each situation you’ve mentioned. As far as “wrong” and “allowed” goes, I think in terms of what is best and what Jesus would do (and these are the same), not in terms of what I can get away with. Im not trying to get away with (or get) anything, but to give all.

Sounds like Rob has an ID Ten T (aka IDIOT) error. Maybe, he ought to be forced to live with an abusive spouse that is physically, mentally, and verbally abusing him and his children. Watch how fast he changes his mind.

I personally lived through that hell, and no one ought to have to live through that. It's damaged everyone involved, especially my children. It's exceptionally evil to tell people suffering through this to stay in this situation. SMH

What if God told a person to get a divorce - would the divorce still be wrong? Or are we still going to go with "God will never tell you to do anything that goes against His commandments..." ?

No, divorce isn't wrong in all cases. This Rob Smith guy is apparently clueless. It's like saying killing someone is wrong in all cases. Now you've just negated most of the Book of Mormon (Nephi vs Laban, and all the wars), and half the Old Testament (Moses killed an Egyptian, David killed Goliath, Israelites (God's chosen people) killed all their enemies). Whether divorce is wrong depends on the situation.

On the one hand, the church says, "any two people who are willing to keep their covenants can get married".
On the other hand, the church believes in the power of the priesthood to seal a marriage together for eternity.

The first statement seems a little flippant when you consider the weightiness of the second statement. Should we not do a better job than other Christians of preparing our youth for "eternal marriage"? Yet the Mormon divorce rate follows the trends of the rest of the USA.

I don't think our church takes marriage as seriously as it thinks it does. For a lot of folks, the temple is just a pretty backdrop for pictures.

y'all know my divorce story - she was cheating on me with various boyfriends for a year behind my back while I was pulling 16 hour days at the phone company. Then decided to divorce me because she said I was "too controlling" after I found out and told her to stop cheating on me (I forgave her, and wanted to work on our marriage).

Once one person decides to divorce another, there's nothing the other person can do about it. With the advent of "no fault divorce" - where you can divorce someone for no reason (allowed in Utah), divorce rates skyrocketed.

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 9:24 am
Lol don't blame "Mormon/Puritan"

Its the New Testament.

And divorce is wrong

society and the world are clowns.... they're weak oath breakers

Yes, there's always exceptions to the rule.... but divorce is wrong according to the Lord.

The vast majority of people who divorce shouldn't divorce.... They need to center their marriage around Christ. The sickness in the marriage is not the man/wife, but is Satan

I wrote this in an earlier topic on divorce...

I was going to leave my post above and not speak of the more violent abuse, because it is private. The mental abuse is horrid on it's own. Yet, those who judge someone who has been abused obviously have no idea of the toll. I know a woman who committed suicide because she was trapped and felt that it was wrong to divorce her abusive husband. Instead, she let the depression eat her alive.

For any to say that an abused spouse simply needs to be closer to the Lord, rather than leave... Has never hidden in a closet after being beaten, trying to decide if they should attempt to flee or simply kill themselves. To be so judgmental and call an abused spouse a "weak oathbreaker" is detrimental at best. I took beatings and stayed for the kids. I always hid my ID in my socks just incase he followed through with his threats to kill me. I stayed.... the obedient wife, because I was indoctrinated to keep my family together.

One night as he was holding me by the neck, pinned to the wall, I snapped. I was not afraid and did not feel the pain anymore. I simply was searching for something to stab him with. The feeling did not last, but that is when I knew without a doubt that I had to leave. I am in no way violent. I abhor even watching boxing. Yet, I would have stabbed him had I been able to reach a screw driver on the counter. This very thought scared me more than being abused again.

Divorce was not a trivial matter that I idly chose because I was bored or felt slighted. Nor am I an adulterer. I am a survivor.

I have since remarried 26 years and going strong, to the most amazing man on the planet. My husband and I are closer to the Lord, than I ever was with my former husband. It was incredibly hard to reach out in prayer when I was broken.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 10:06 am

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:27 am Recently an online commentator, Rob Smith, made the argument that once you are married or even seriously committed to someone then you are spiritually bound until death.
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2022/ ... ygamy.html

I think the confusion is because in the KJV the concepts of divorce and put away are all intertwined.
This podcast states clearly that put away and divorce are different and that it was very hard for women anciently when they were kicked out of the house and not divorced.
https://ironrodpodcast.com/podcast/iron ... 2-divorce/

The scriptures use 2 terms which we assume to be equal however are not.
Put away means to be separated, but not divorced.
Divorced means to be legally/spiritual permanently separated.

In addition the scriptures seem to justify that divorce for fornication is allowed.
Duet 24:1-4 - If you divorce a woman you shouldn't remarry her.
Jer 3:1 - If a wife is separated without divorce and then "marries" a new man that is a pollution.
Matt 5:31-32 / 3 Nephi 12:32 - You can separate from your wife for fornication however it someone were to marry her then that would be wrong.
Matt 19:7 / Luke 16:18 / Mark 10:11 - Separation for fornication is allowed.
1 Cor 7:10-15 - If your separated don't remarry.
D&C 42:74-77 - Receive no one that is separated from a spouse except for fornication. If they are separated (still married) for any other reason don't receive them.
Jeremaiah 3:6-10 - God divorced Israel because of her wickedness

Therefore I think divorce is wrong. However if the other person violates the marriage covenant then is it not okay to divorce and move on?
Is this not what God is doing with the gospel? The Jews rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on. Then his new wife the gentiles rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on.

No it’s not wrong. My personal fave on here is that guy who says it’s wrong even in cases where the man beats up his wife.

I attribute this to 'Mormon myopia'.

Families are good. Therefore all families are good and there is no such thing as a bad (dysfunctional?) family.

Marriage is good. Therefore all marriages are good and there is no such thing as a bad marriage.

All is well in Zion. There are no poor in Zion, as we drove them all out of town with high real estate prices and city "nuisance" laws.
dc

Momma J wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 8:13 am

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 9:24 am
Lol don't blame "Mormon/Puritan"

Its the New Testament.

And divorce is wrong

society and the world are clowns.... they're weak oath breakers

Yes, there's always exceptions to the rule.... but divorce is wrong according to the Lord.

The vast majority of people who divorce shouldn't divorce.... They need to center their marriage around Christ. The sickness in the marriage is not the man/wife, but is Satan

I wrote this in an earlier topic on divorce...

I was going to leave my post above and not speak of the more violent abuse, because it is private. The mental abuse is horrid on it's own. Yet, those who judge someone who has been abused obviously have no idea of the toll. I know a woman who committed suicide because she was trapped and felt that it was wrong to divorce her abusive husband. Instead, she let the depression eat her alive.

For any to say that an abused spouse simply needs to be closer to the Lord, rather than leave... Has never hidden in a closet after being beaten, trying to decide if they should attempt to flee or simply kill themselves. To be so judgmental and call an abused spouse a "weak oathbreaker" is detrimental at best. I took beatings and stayed for the kids. I always hid my ID in my socks just incase he followed through with his threats to kill me. I stayed.... the obedient wife, because I was indoctrinated to keep my family together.

One night as he was holding me by the neck, pinned to the wall, I snapped. I was not afraid and did not feel the pain anymore. I simply was searching for something to stab him with. The feeling did not last, but that is when I knew without a doubt that I had to leave. I am in no way violent. I abhor even watching boxing. Yet, I would have stabbed him had I been able to reach a screw driver on the counter. This very thought scared me more than being abused again.

Divorce was not a trivial matter that I idly chose because I was bored or felt slighted. Nor am I an adulterer. I am a survivor.

I have since remarried 26 years and going strong, to the most amazing man on the planet. My husband and I are closer to the Lord, than I ever was with my former husband. It was incredibly hard to reach out in prayer when I was broken.

I'm grateful you made it through. The Lord led the Israelites away from the Egyptians. Why would He want us to stay married to someone who isn't really human? That makes no sense.

If someone is abusing their spouse then in my opinion, and I believe in God's opinion as well, they have put their spouse away. The divorce is on their head and they carry the consequences and the guilt.

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:27 am Recently an online commentator, Rob Smith, made the argument that once you are married or even seriously committed to someone then you are spiritually bound until death.
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2022/ ... ygamy.html

I think the confusion is because in the KJV the concepts of divorce and put away are all intertwined.
This podcast states clearly that put away and divorce are different and that it was very hard for women anciently when they were kicked out of the house and not divorced.
https://ironrodpodcast.com/podcast/iron ... 2-divorce/

The scriptures use 2 terms which we assume to be equal however are not.
Put away means to be separated, but not divorced.
Divorced means to be legally/spiritual permanently separated.

In addition the scriptures seem to justify that divorce for fornication is allowed.
Duet 24:1-4 - If you divorce a woman you shouldn't remarry her.
Jer 3:1 - If a wife is separated without divorce and then "marries" a new man that is a pollution.
Matt 5:31-32 / 3 Nephi 12:32 - You can separate from your wife for fornication however it someone were to marry her then that would be wrong.
Matt 19:7 / Luke 16:18 / Mark 10:11 - Separation for fornication is allowed.
1 Cor 7:10-15 - If your separated don't remarry.
D&C 42:74-77 - Receive no one that is separated from a spouse except for fornication. If they are separated (still married) for any other reason don't receive them.
Jeremaiah 3:6-10 - God divorced Israel because of her wickedness

Therefore I think divorce is wrong. However if the other person violates the marriage covenant then is it not okay to divorce and move on?
Is this not what God is doing with the gospel? The Jews rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on. Then his new wife the gentiles rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on.

In many instances, divorce is simply the spiritual guidance of a person getting ready to disconnect the old energy so that someone more appropriate to that person's spiritual journey will arrive. OF course for most people, they are not interested in a spiritual journey or in individual spiritual attainment, so they get a partner that is at the level that they themselves are at.

Marriage is both a human constructed institution as well as a God constructed institution, so to speak. Thus it is hard to separate the right from the legality.

People have free will, thus they marry those they really shouldn't marry and they sometimes divorce people they shouldn't divorce. That's juts how life is.

And of course, the recent issue is now mrna causing sterilizations and which is passed from transfection via bodily fluids like sweat. Should a woman sacrifice all her eggs and future children that she could have for god's children of the spirit, because of her current marriage in human legality?

anonymous91 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 6:14 am

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:54 am

marc wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:43 am Is divorce in all cases wrong? I don't know. I'm ok with not knowing. A neighbor of mine divorced her husband only after wrestling with the Lord for a long time and finally receiving an audible answer while visiting the temple. If I recall correctly, he was very abusive and she struggled with staying and receiving abuse continually or moving on. Today she is remarried with a good man who is a good husband and a good father. I believe Rob would defer to the Lord's answer in her case. She sought out the Lord in this specific matter faithfully and God answered appropriately in this specific case.

I don't think so.
I referenced abuse directly and Rob responded it was still wrong.

Me:
You wrote an article saying divorce in all cases is wrong. The scriptures themselves can be interpreted to say that divorce is okay in cases of "fornication".
Are you saying that divorce is not allowed even if the husband is physically violent or sexually promiscuous?
Should a wife visit the ER weekly if her husband wants to send her there?
Should a wife allow her husband to abuse their children?
Should a wife allow her husband to literally worship an idol and teach her children to do so?

Rob:
“I’m” not saying anything. Im pointing to what Jesus said. He spoke on each situation you’ve mentioned. As far as “wrong” and “allowed” goes, I think in terms of what is best and what Jesus would do (and these are the same), not in terms of what I can get away with. Im not trying to get away with (or get) anything, but to give all.

Sounds like Rob has an ID Ten T (aka IDIOT) error. Maybe, he ought to be forced to live with an abusive spouse that is physically, mentally, and verbally abusing him and his children. Watch how fast he changes his mind.

I personally lived through that hell, and no one ought to have to live through that. It's damaged everyone involved, especially my children. It's exceptionally evil to tell people suffering through this to stay in this situation. SMH

Why do people ask Rob what Jeshua is saying? Why don't people ask Jeshua themselves?

Do they think he is dead or something?

It is like religious people have this contradiction in their heads. They think they believe in God, but that's not how they act.

HereWeGo wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 2:48 pm

David13 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 10:01 am Many times the kids adjust and recover faster than the adults.

Sometimes the kids say they should have got a divorce long ago. It's about time, some of them say.

In my wife's previous marriage, her older teenage daughters came to her and wanted her to know that if she decided to divorce their dad, they would support her in this action. He was emotionally abusive to her. She had never spoken to them about divorce.

In my second marriage, that wife's oldest 17 year old daughter came to me and said, "You should divorce my mom. You don't deserve to be treated the way she treats you. But I hope you don't leave because we kids really need you." The second wife was arrested for a crime and wanted a divorce. There were only 2 of her kids at home. I continued to raise them and even raised them after I got remarried to my current, wonderful wife. One of these 2 kids told my current wife and I that we are the only normal parents that they have. We still have a good relationship with these kids.

I would say your deeds merit a great amount of latitude. Even if you had killed someone on purpose or by accident, much of that would be washed away by these deeds of yours. I'm just making a personal judgment of what I would do if I were part of your Life Judgment from the Divine Counsel's point of view.

Divorce? THat's minor compared to murder/manslaughter.

Momma J wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 8:13 am

I was going to leave my post above and not speak of the more violent abuse, because it is private. The mental abuse is horrid on it's own. Yet, those who judge someone who has been abused obviously have no idea of the toll. I know a woman who committed suicide because she was trapped and felt that it was wrong to divorce her abusive husband. Instead, she let the depression eat her alive.

For any to say that an abused spouse simply needs to be closer to the Lord, rather than leave... Has never hidden in a closet after being beaten, trying to decide if they should attempt to flee or simply kill themselves. To be so judgmental and call an abused spouse a "weak oathbreaker" is detrimental at best. I took beatings and stayed for the kids. I always hid my ID in my socks just incase he followed through with his threats to kill me. I stayed.... the obedient wife, because I was indoctrinated to keep my family together.

One night as he was holding me by the neck, pinned to the wall, I snapped. I was not afraid and did not feel the pain anymore. I simply was searching for something to stab him with. The feeling did not last, but that is when I knew without a doubt that I had to leave. I am in no way violent. I abhor even watching boxing. Yet, I would have stabbed him had I been able to reach a screw driver on the counter. This very thought scared me more than being abused again.

Divorce was not a trivial matter that I idly chose because I was bored or felt slighted. Nor am I an adulterer. I am a survivor.

Thanks for sharing.
It often takes anger to get to the level of courage needed to take an action to correct your life's journey.

If I was in the seat of judgment at the end of your life, I would not really comment on this matter all that much, except to say that you succeeded in the test. How you did so, was your free will and the consequences were yours to bear one way or another.

I think overall, most souls blame and punish themselves, far more than those in the judgment seats would sentence them to.

To love thy neighbor as you love yourself is the entirety of the Mosiach Law. When one commits to a course of self harm, that is the absence of compassion/love for the self. One cannot love others when one has no compassion for one's own trials and tribulations.

Eventually those who love an external source, whether that is god/scriptures/their kids, will run dry, if they have no love for themselves. The energy exchange is unbalanced.

Ymarsakar wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 4:07 am

anonymous91 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 6:14 am

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:54 am

I don't think so.
I referenced abuse directly and Rob responded it was still wrong.

Me:
You wrote an article saying divorce in all cases is wrong. The scriptures themselves can be interpreted to say that divorce is okay in cases of "fornication".
Are you saying that divorce is not allowed even if the husband is physically violent or sexually promiscuous?
Should a wife visit the ER weekly if her husband wants to send her there?
Should a wife allow her husband to abuse their children?
Should a wife allow her husband to literally worship an idol and teach her children to do so?

Rob:
“I’m” not saying anything. Im pointing to what Jesus said. He spoke on each situation you’ve mentioned. As far as “wrong” and “allowed” goes, I think in terms of what is best and what Jesus would do (and these are the same), not in terms of what I can get away with. Im not trying to get away with (or get) anything, but to give all.

Sounds like Rob has an ID Ten T (aka IDIOT) error. Maybe, he ought to be forced to live with an abusive spouse that is physically, mentally, and verbally abusing him and his children. Watch how fast he changes his mind.

I personally lived through that hell, and no one ought to have to live through that. It's damaged everyone involved, especially my children. It's exceptionally evil to tell people suffering through this to stay in this situation. SMH

Why do people ask Rob what Jeshua is saying? Why don't people ask Jeshua themselves?

Do they think he is dead or something?

It is like religious people have this contradiction in their heads. They think they believe in God, but that's not how they act.

People ask Rob what Jesus says because of the Mormon model….they’re brainwashed to think that there is someone between Jesus and themselves that will interpret scriptures for them, tell them what to do and predict future events.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 4:50 am

Ymarsakar wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 4:07 am

anonymous91 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 6:14 am

Sounds like Rob has an ID Ten T (aka IDIOT) error. Maybe, he ought to be forced to live with an abusive spouse that is physically, mentally, and verbally abusing him and his children. Watch how fast he changes his mind.

I personally lived through that hell, and no one ought to have to live through that. It's damaged everyone involved, especially my children. It's exceptionally evil to tell people suffering through this to stay in this situation. SMH

Why do people ask Rob what Jeshua is saying? Why don't people ask Jeshua themselves?

Do they think he is dead or something?

It is like religious people have this contradiction in their heads. They think they believe in God, but that's not how they act.

People ask Rob what Jesus says because of the Mormon model….they’re brainwashed to think that there is someone between Jesus and themselves that will interpret scriptures for them, tell them what to do and predict future events.

I don't think that is particularly a Mormonism trait, as most religions created by childlike mankind, have this childlike quality to it. Including the religion of trans/scientism. Trust the SCIENCE!

David13 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 10:01 am

Thinker wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 9:52 am The main reason for marriage is for CHILDREN. Divorce should not be considered for trivial reasons when you destroy children’s ONE childhood and their ONE home. Children then no longer have 1 safe base but are shuffled between 2 part-time homes and often have to compete with step families for attention. How would adults like that? It pisses me off when parents don’t even consider the impact on their kids - it’s all about the adults - their pride, their horniness, their “happiness,” etc.

Parents have been known to give up food despite extreme hunger, so their kids can eat, and even risk their lives for their children. Yet, so many parents can’t sacrifice their pride to give their children what they deserve - a basic, healthy family? Dr. Schlessinger said when you have children, you owe it to them to do all you can to keep the family together and as healthy as possible - & if you divorce should not date or remarry until all children are 18. She suggested 3 A’s as legitimate reasons for divorce
1) Abuse
2) Adultery
3) Addiction

Even with some of the above, if it isn’t life threatening & you can with boundaries etc, make it work, then it may be better than breaking up the family. Each situation is unique & studying it out and praying for spiritual guidance is the best way to go.

Many times the kids adjust and recover faster than the adults.

Sometimes the kids say they should have got a divorce long ago. It's about time, some of them say.

Divorce is better than the arguing, the yelling, the screaming, the fights, breaking things, and all the terror and fear and threats that accompany that. Better than drunkenness, police involvement, etc. People who live sheltered mild mannered lives have no idea about all of that.
dc

But divorce is not necessarily best. Maybe better is parents acting like mature adults who are able to put aside their pride & get along enough to take care of their highest responsibilities of caring for children they created together. While kids are involved & minor age, they should be more of a priority than pride, better sex etc. Children deserve to not have their home/family/childhood tore up and ruined just because adults can’t control themselves.
+2min: ^This woman has done more for defending marriage, children & families than our leaders who seem to be totally fine with divorce & breaking up families over trivial things like pride.

Momma J wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 8:13 am

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 9:24 am
Lol don't blame "Mormon/Puritan"

Its the New Testament.

And divorce is wrong

society and the world are clowns.... they're weak oath breakers

Yes, there's always exceptions to the rule.... but divorce is wrong according to the Lord.

The vast majority of people who divorce shouldn't divorce.... They need to center their marriage around Christ. The sickness in the marriage is not the man/wife, but is Satan

I wrote this in an earlier topic on divorce...

I was going to leave my post above and not speak of the more violent abuse, because it is private. The mental abuse is horrid on it's own. Yet, those who judge someone who has been abused obviously have no idea of the toll. I know a woman who committed suicide because she was trapped and felt that it was wrong to divorce her abusive husband. Instead, she let the depression eat her alive.

For any to say that an abused spouse simply needs to be closer to the Lord, rather than leave... Has never hidden in a closet after being beaten, trying to decide if they should attempt to flee or simply kill themselves. To be so judgmental and call an abused spouse a "weak oathbreaker" is detrimental at best. I took beatings and stayed for the kids. I always hid my ID in my socks just incase he followed through with his threats to kill me. I stayed.... the obedient wife, because I was indoctrinated to keep my family together.

One night as he was holding me by the neck, pinned to the wall, I snapped. I was not afraid and did not feel the pain anymore. I simply was searching for something to stab him with. The feeling did not last, but that is when I knew without a doubt that I had to leave. I am in no way violent. I abhor even watching boxing. Yet, I would have stabbed him had I been able to reach a screw driver on the counter. This very thought scared me more than being abused again.

Divorce was not a trivial matter that I idly chose because I was bored or felt slighted. Nor am I an adulterer. I am a survivor.

I have since remarried 26 years and going strong, to the most amazing man on the planet. My husband and I are closer to the Lord, than I ever was with my former husband. It was incredibly hard to reach out in prayer when I was broken.

The Lord is the good shepherd

I hope to be going 26 years and strong like you guys! Excellent!

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:27 am Recently an online commentator, Rob Smith, made the argument that once you are married or even seriously committed to someone then you are spiritually bound until death.
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2022/ ... ygamy.html

I think the confusion is because in the KJV the concepts of divorce and put away are all intertwined.
This podcast states clearly that put away and divorce are different and that it was very hard for women anciently when they were kicked out of the house and not divorced.
https://ironrodpodcast.com/podcast/iron ... 2-divorce/

The scriptures use 2 terms which we assume to be equal however are not.
Put away means to be separated, but not divorced.
Divorced means to be legally/spiritual permanently separated.

In addition the scriptures seem to justify that divorce for fornication is allowed.
Duet 24:1-4 - If you divorce a woman you shouldn't remarry her.
Jer 3:1 - If a wife is separated without divorce and then "marries" a new man that is a pollution.
Matt 5:31-32 / 3 Nephi 12:32 - You can separate from your wife for fornication however it someone were to marry her then that would be wrong.
Matt 19:7 / Luke 16:18 / Mark 10:11 - Separation for fornication is allowed.
1 Cor 7:10-15 - If your separated don't remarry.
D&C 42:74-77 - Receive no one that is separated from a spouse except for fornication. If they are separated (still married) for any other reason don't receive them.
Jeremaiah 3:6-10 - God divorced Israel because of her wickedness

Therefore I think divorce is wrong. However if the other person violates the marriage covenant then is it not okay to divorce and move on?
Is this not what God is doing with the gospel? The Jews rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on. Then his new wife the gentiles rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on.

Rob wrote on this topic likely because his wife wants to get out of being married to him (can't blame her) and he's trying to spiritually clamp down on her.

Grassland wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 12:48 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:27 am Recently an online commentator, Rob Smith, made the argument that once you are married or even seriously committed to someone then you are spiritually bound until death.
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2022/ ... ygamy.html

I think the confusion is because in the KJV the concepts of divorce and put away are all intertwined.
This podcast states clearly that put away and divorce are different and that it was very hard for women anciently when they were kicked out of the house and not divorced.
https://ironrodpodcast.com/podcast/iron ... 2-divorce/

The scriptures use 2 terms which we assume to be equal however are not.
Put away means to be separated, but not divorced.
Divorced means to be legally/spiritual permanently separated.

In addition the scriptures seem to justify that divorce for fornication is allowed.
Duet 24:1-4 - If you divorce a woman you shouldn't remarry her.
Jer 3:1 - If a wife is separated without divorce and then "marries" a new man that is a pollution.
Matt 5:31-32 / 3 Nephi 12:32 - You can separate from your wife for fornication however it someone were to marry her then that would be wrong.
Matt 19:7 / Luke 16:18 / Mark 10:11 - Separation for fornication is allowed.
1 Cor 7:10-15 - If your separated don't remarry.
D&C 42:74-77 - Receive no one that is separated from a spouse except for fornication. If they are separated (still married) for any other reason don't receive them.
Jeremaiah 3:6-10 - God divorced Israel because of her wickedness

Therefore I think divorce is wrong. However if the other person violates the marriage covenant then is it not okay to divorce and move on?
Is this not what God is doing with the gospel? The Jews rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on. Then his new wife the gentiles rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on.

Rob wrote on this topic likely because his wife wants to get out of being married to him (can't blame her) and he's trying to spiritually clamp down on her.

No Torah states you can divorce and get remarried. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWfum7X ... n&index=45

Grassland wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 12:48 pm Rob wrote on this topic likely because his wife wants to get out of being married to him (can't blame her) and he's trying to spiritually clamp down on her.

That would be sad.
He states he is sinless and I would guess that means he is never wrong because everything he does is what Christ would do.
It would be hard to be married to someone that is never wrong.

Grassland wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 12:48 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:27 am Recently an online commentator, Rob Smith, made the argument that once you are married or even seriously committed to someone then you are spiritually bound until death.
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2022/ ... ygamy.html

I think the confusion is because in the KJV the concepts of divorce and put away are all intertwined.
This podcast states clearly that put away and divorce are different and that it was very hard for women anciently when they were kicked out of the house and not divorced.
https://ironrodpodcast.com/podcast/iron ... 2-divorce/

The scriptures use 2 terms which we assume to be equal however are not.
Put away means to be separated, but not divorced.
Divorced means to be legally/spiritual permanently separated.

In addition the scriptures seem to justify that divorce for fornication is allowed.
Duet 24:1-4 - If you divorce a woman you shouldn't remarry her.
Jer 3:1 - If a wife is separated without divorce and then "marries" a new man that is a pollution.
Matt 5:31-32 / 3 Nephi 12:32 - You can separate from your wife for fornication however it someone were to marry her then that would be wrong.
Matt 19:7 / Luke 16:18 / Mark 10:11 - Separation for fornication is allowed.
1 Cor 7:10-15 - If your separated don't remarry.
D&C 42:74-77 - Receive no one that is separated from a spouse except for fornication. If they are separated (still married) for any other reason don't receive them.
Jeremaiah 3:6-10 - God divorced Israel because of her wickedness

Therefore I think divorce is wrong. However if the other person violates the marriage covenant then is it not okay to divorce and move on?
Is this not what God is doing with the gospel? The Jews rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on. Then his new wife the gentiles rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on.

Rob wrote on this topic likely because his wife wants to get out of being married to him (can't blame her) and he's trying to spiritually clamp down on her.

Oh man, if your testimony is accurate/correct.... then Rob is in trouble. And I mean serious trouble.

If I had not seen it.... but I did.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 10:53 am

David13 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 10:01 am

Thinker wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 9:52 am The main reason for marriage is for CHILDREN. Divorce should not be considered for trivial reasons when you destroy children’s ONE childhood and their ONE home. Children then no longer have 1 safe base but are shuffled between 2 part-time homes and often have to compete with step families for attention. How would adults like that? It pisses me off when parents don’t even consider the impact on their kids - it’s all about the adults - their pride, their horniness, their “happiness,” etc.

Parents have been known to give up food despite extreme hunger, so their kids can eat, and even risk their lives for their children. Yet, so many parents can’t sacrifice their pride to give their children what they deserve - a basic, healthy family? Dr. Schlessinger said when you have children, you owe it to them to do all you can to keep the family together and as healthy as possible - & if you divorce should not date or remarry until all children are 18. She suggested 3 A’s as legitimate reasons for divorce
1) Abuse
2) Adultery
3) Addiction

Even with some of the above, if it isn’t life threatening & you can with boundaries etc, make it work, then it may be better than breaking up the family. Each situation is unique & studying it out and praying for spiritual guidance is the best way to go.

Many times the kids adjust and recover faster than the adults.

Sometimes the kids say they should have got a divorce long ago. It's about time, some of them say.

Divorce is better than the arguing, the yelling, the screaming, the fights, breaking things, and all the terror and fear and threats that accompany that. Better than drunkenness, police involvement, etc. People who live sheltered mild mannered lives have no idea about all of that.
dc

But divorce is not necessarily best. Maybe better is parents acting like mature adults who are able to put aside their pride & get along enough to take care of their highest responsibilities of caring for children they created together. While kids are involved & minor age, they should be more of a priority than pride, better sex etc. Children deserve to not have their home/family/childhood tore up and ruined just because adults can’t control themselves.
+2min:

^This woman has done more for defending marriage, children & families than our leaders who seem to be totally fine with divorce & breaking up families over trivial things like pride.

Sure, if it's possible. Sure, in a perfect world. But, if all that were possible, why would the two people be teetering on the brink of divorce? Usually, in many cases, and I might mention I have been involved in many, they have already tried all that stuff and failed at it.

If you really want to do something with it, start looking at the period prior to the marriage, and what type or real compatibility do the parties have, and what type of education have they had with regard to those factors.

Maybe it's just too easy for some people to get married.

I know the Catholic church started quite a few years ago with a pre marital program that saw some success.
dc

David13 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 8:41 am
All is well in Zion. There are no poor in Zion, as we drove them all out of town with high real estate prices and city "nuisance" laws.
dc

LOL This is GREAT! I love it! Funny, but seems to be how united order and even Enoch actually pulled it off for a while that is.

Read the research, look at the statistics, they all say the same thing: Adults and children in an unhappy marriage/ home are generally much better off married than divorced, in about every way.

Yes, there are reasons to divorce, and definitely reasons to separate.
If your spouse makes the choice, you can't really do much about that in the end.

I really, really wish the Church were more helpful in marriage preparation.

A married ward bishop told my dad years ago that he spent most of his interview time counseling couples to stay married--they had made out for a few months; gotten married; sex got old fast; living together they discovered they really didn't like each other (other than the sex), know each other, care for each other, weren't friends, had little in common, etc.

I don't understand why so many trivial divorces end with both spouses in good standing in the Church--you just massively broke a covenant! I think that sends a message to everyone that it's nothing big--even if the First Presidency has to ok your "unsealing". At least the new change of interviewing after a divorce is a good sign/ start.

JohnnyL wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 11:02 am Read the research, look at the statistics, they all say the same thing: Adults and children in an unhappy marriage/ home are generally much better off married than divorced, in about every way.

Yes, there are reasons to divorce, and definitely reasons to separate.
If your spouse makes the choice, you can't really do much about that in the end.

I really, really wish the Church were more helpful in marriage preparation.

A married ward bishop told my dad years ago that he spent most of his interview time counseling couples to stay married--they had made out for a few months; gotten married; sex got old fast; living together they discovered they really didn't like each other (other than the sex), know each other, care for each other, weren't friends, had little in common, etc.

I don't understand why so many trivial divorces end with both spouses in good standing in the Church--you just massively broke a covenant! I think that sends a message to everyone that it's nothing big--even if the First Presidency has to ok your "unsealing". At least the new change of interviewing after a divorce is a good sign/ start.

I agree. We must remember there is a huge difference between entering into and living eternal marriage vs. telestial marriage. You may not know which when you begin, but have to assume the former. But, it seems unlikely that more than a very few will be sealed by HSoP. Some surely will. Perhaps you even get to choose. but think about it. both partners must be ready for the highest level of CK, not middle or lower salvation in CK or even terrestrial. Next you must be equally yoked in eternal terms or someone will not be happy. I don't literally buy GBH statement any two can make themselves eternally happy. Perhaps I'm wrong, but if so it is because they are truly in love with no holds barred and willing to work things out no matter what.

Celestial marriage and partnership is a complete flip of the script from what we have been doing for all eternity. If you want to believe the big bang and JS then we are 14B years old as intelligences and spirits. Always progressing ourselves. Always pushing up, that is why we are among the few intelligences that became children of god vs. the rest of the life forms. Then one day you find out the only way to progress is to give up your relentless push to progress yourself. You must take a mate and progress them and be confident they will progress you. It is no longer about self but your partner and by default the partnership. must be two perfect beings to enter into that relationship. Not the same thing as being together for sex or companionship, or friendship or convenience in this short life. but here we learn about it, or about failing it.

For me the only thing I want more than to love my partner perfectly (daily failing here) is to be so confident and trusting in her loving me, that I can put my eternal welfare in her hands and never, never, never look back. that's me anyway.

TheDuke wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 11:32 am I agree. We must remember there is a huge difference between entering into and living eternal marriage vs. telestial marriage. You may not know which when you begin, but have to assume the former. But, it seems unlikely that more than a very few will be sealed by HSoP. Some surely will. Perhaps you even get to choose. but think about it. both partners must be ready for the highest level of CK, not middle or lower salvation in CK or even terrestrial. Next you must be equally yoked in eternal terms or someone will not be happy. I don't literally buy GBH statement any two can make themselves eternally happy. Perhaps I'm wrong, but if so it is because they are truly in love with no holds barred and willing to work things out no matter what.

Excellent summary.

Let me pose an idea. We get married in the temple and are told that when the Holy Spirit of Promise seals the marriage, it will be eternal. Until this promise is sealed, we are simply in a Telestial Marriage.

I don't think the sealing is something silent which happens without notice. I think it would be on the level of what happens with a Second Comforter type experience -- where the Lord literally comes to you in person.

I believe Multiple Mortal Probations is real. I think it is probable that each time we have a mortal existence, we have a different mate who was picked for us to help us learn those things we are supposed to learn during that existence. I have been married 3 times and divorced twice. Each of my spouses has taught me things and helped me change into the person that I am. There are many things I wouldn't have learned had I only been married to one of them.

I believe that it is possible, in a mortal existence, to progress to the point that the Savior comes to you and accepts you as his son (Terrestrial Kingdom). He will eventually present you to His Father who will then accept you as His son (Celestial Kingdom). By this point, I believe the Holy Spirit of Promise will be sealed upon you and your eternal mate will be sealed to you forever.

I haven't had a powerful experience where the Holy Spirit of Promise has taken place.

Telavian wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 2:53 pm

Grassland wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 12:48 pm Rob wrote on this topic likely because his wife wants to get out of being married to him (can't blame her) and he's trying to spiritually clamp down on her.

That would be sad.
He states he is sinless and I would guess that means he is never wrong because everything he does is what Christ would do.
It would be hard to be married to someone that is never wrong.

Sad indeed. Anyone who claims they are so perfects as he has, is usually the most blind to how screwed up they are. The 1 thing that God cannot interfere with is the choice of pride over humility.

David13 wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 10:22 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 18th, 2023, 10:53 am But divorce is not necessarily best. Maybe better is parents acting like mature adults who are able to put aside their pride & get along enough to take care of their highest responsibilities of caring for children they created together. While kids are involved & minor age, they should be more of a priority than pride, better sex etc. Children deserve to not have their home/family/childhood tore up and ruined just because adults can’t control themselves.
+2min:

^This woman has done more for defending marriage, children & families than our leaders who seem to be totally fine with divorce & breaking up families over trivial things like pride.

Sure, if it's possible. Sure, in a perfect world. But, if all that were possible, why would the two people be teetering on the brink of divorce? Usually, in many cases, and I might mention I have been involved in many, they have already tried all that stuff and failed at it.

If you really want to do something with it, start looking at the period prior to the marriage, and what type or real compatibility do the parties have, and what type of education have they had with regard to those factors.

Maybe it's just too easy for some people to get married.

I know the Catholic church started quite a few years ago with a pre marital program that saw some success.
dc

Yeah, my sister went through a pretty extensive premarital Catholic program with her then-fiancé. I admire how the Catholic church takes it more seriously than most.

It may sound Pollyanna to suggest parents get their s-it together at least for the sake of children. But it’s only because it’s so rare that children are put first in such situations.