LDS Freedom Forum

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:27 am Recently an online commentator, Rob Smith, made the argument that once you are married or even seriously committed to someone then you are spiritually bound until death.
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2022/ ... ygamy.html

I think the confusion is because in the KJV the concepts of divorce and put away are all intertwined.
This podcast states clearly that put away and divorce are different and that it was very hard for women anciently when they were kicked out of the house and not divorced.
https://ironrodpodcast.com/podcast/iron ... 2-divorce/

The scriptures use 2 terms which we assume to be equal however are not.
Put away means to be separated, but not divorced.
Divorced means to be legally/spiritual permanently separated.

In addition the scriptures seem to justify that divorce for fornication is allowed.
Duet 24:1-4 - If you divorce a woman you shouldn't remarry her.
Jer 3:1 - If a wife is separated without divorce and then "marries" a new man that is a pollution.
Matt 5:31-32 / 3 Nephi 12:32 - You can separate from your wife for fornication however it someone were to marry her then that would be wrong.
Matt 19:7 / Luke 16:18 / Mark 10:11 - Separation for fornication is allowed.
1 Cor 7:10-15 - If your separated don't remarry.
D&C 42:74-77 - Receive no one that is separated from a spouse except for fornication. If they are separated (still married) for any other reason don't receive them.
Jeremaiah 3:6-10 - God divorced Israel because of her wickedness

Therefore I think divorce is wrong. However if the other person violates the marriage covenant then is it not okay to divorce and move on?
Is this not what God is doing with the gospel? The Jews rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on. Then his new wife the gentiles rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on.

No it’s not wrong. My personal fave on here is that guy who says it’s wrong even in cases where the man beats up his wife.

JandD6572 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:55 am At The end of The day, there is only one unpardonable sin, the rest we are able to attain forgiveness for. Not that it is a justification to do so, just because. I merely point out that some teach you will go to hell, this is false doctrine. If there is only one unpardonable sin, than the Lord is there and waiting for our return to him, were ever that place may be.

Yes, and that unpardonable sin is to be unrepentant. To be a son of perdition, I think is to have lost all desire to accept God. Sherem feared that he had committed the unpardonable sin, but I don't think so for he died with a repentant heart.

So, there is a fair amount of research on this topic. In marriages where there is no significant mental or personality disorder (psychopathy/sociopathy, narcissism, paranoid schizophrenia, borderline disorder, etc.) and no abuse or adultery, but the partners had developed antipathy towards each other, the ones that decided to not divorce but instead work on their marriage were, on average, much happier than those who did divorce.

However, significant mental or personality disorders, abuse, and adultery are, I believe, in most cases grounds for divorce. Asking a spouse to stay with someone who beats them or their children, or who sexually abuses them or their children is morally depraved, in my opinion.

When the Lord God Omnipotent (Mosiah 3:15) was on the earth in the form of Jesus Christ (see Mosiah 15:1-5), he had this to say about the subject:

6 ... What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19)

So, the thing I have reflected on is when, what, where, how does God (Jesus Christ/ Yeshua Messiah) join a man and woman (singular) together?

Does He really do it in a building that was built by robbing the poor and using a crazed masonic ritual with pretend authority? My wife and I fell into this deception, but now realize how silly these precepts of men are.

Does He do it using an appointed government official who (whether they realize it or not) are spreading the beast-system in a make believe reality of where human rights come from?

Does He do it using a minister of the church of the devil?

I can't help but wonder if what the world calls a "Common Law Marriage" isn't as valid as any of the above.

These are things I have pondered. What are your thoughts?

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 10:06 am

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:27 am Recently an online commentator, Rob Smith, made the argument that once you are married or even seriously committed to someone then you are spiritually bound until death.
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2022/ ... ygamy.html

I think the confusion is because in the KJV the concepts of divorce and put away are all intertwined.
This podcast states clearly that put away and divorce are different and that it was very hard for women anciently when they were kicked out of the house and not divorced.
https://ironrodpodcast.com/podcast/iron ... 2-divorce/

The scriptures use 2 terms which we assume to be equal however are not.
Put away means to be separated, but not divorced.
Divorced means to be legally/spiritual permanently separated.

In addition the scriptures seem to justify that divorce for fornication is allowed.
Duet 24:1-4 - If you divorce a woman you shouldn't remarry her.
Jer 3:1 - If a wife is separated without divorce and then "marries" a new man that is a pollution.
Matt 5:31-32 / 3 Nephi 12:32 - You can separate from your wife for fornication however it someone were to marry her then that would be wrong.
Matt 19:7 / Luke 16:18 / Mark 10:11 - Separation for fornication is allowed.
1 Cor 7:10-15 - If your separated don't remarry.
D&C 42:74-77 - Receive no one that is separated from a spouse except for fornication. If they are separated (still married) for any other reason don't receive them.
Jeremaiah 3:6-10 - God divorced Israel because of her wickedness

Therefore I think divorce is wrong. However if the other person violates the marriage covenant then is it not okay to divorce and move on?
Is this not what God is doing with the gospel? The Jews rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on. Then his new wife the gentiles rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on.

No it’s not wrong. My personal fave on here is that guy who says it’s wrong even in cases where the man beats up his wife.

A man who beats up his wife is not of the lord. He and his wife will never enter his Father’s kingdom.

Is divorce adultery, yes, does it matter at this point? She is damned either way.

Proverbs 21

9 It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.

19 It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

Can we not switch the sexes on both verses?

Should she divorce him or just separate from him until he repents in sackcloth?

Many women beat their husbands, mentally…. The Bible does not say to divorce her, why can’t we judge what is right?

You keep judging all men base off of the worse men.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 2:13 pm

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 10:06 am

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:27 am Recently an online commentator, Rob Smith, made the argument that once you are married or even seriously committed to someone then you are spiritually bound until death.
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2022/ ... ygamy.html

I think the confusion is because in the KJV the concepts of divorce and put away are all intertwined.
This podcast states clearly that put away and divorce are different and that it was very hard for women anciently when they were kicked out of the house and not divorced.
https://ironrodpodcast.com/podcast/iron ... 2-divorce/

The scriptures use 2 terms which we assume to be equal however are not.
Put away means to be separated, but not divorced.
Divorced means to be legally/spiritual permanently separated.

In addition the scriptures seem to justify that divorce for fornication is allowed.
Duet 24:1-4 - If you divorce a woman you shouldn't remarry her.
Jer 3:1 - If a wife is separated without divorce and then "marries" a new man that is a pollution.
Matt 5:31-32 / 3 Nephi 12:32 - You can separate from your wife for fornication however it someone were to marry her then that would be wrong.
Matt 19:7 / Luke 16:18 / Mark 10:11 - Separation for fornication is allowed.
1 Cor 7:10-15 - If your separated don't remarry.
D&C 42:74-77 - Receive no one that is separated from a spouse except for fornication. If they are separated (still married) for any other reason don't receive them.
Jeremaiah 3:6-10 - God divorced Israel because of her wickedness

Therefore I think divorce is wrong. However if the other person violates the marriage covenant then is it not okay to divorce and move on?
Is this not what God is doing with the gospel? The Jews rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on. Then his new wife the gentiles rejected the covenant so he divorced them and moved on.

No it’s not wrong. My personal fave on here is that guy who says it’s wrong even in cases where the man beats up his wife.

A man who beats up his wife is not of the lord. He and his wife will never enter his Father’s kingdom.

Is divorce adultery, yes, does it matter at this point? She is damned either way.

Proverbs 21

9 It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.

19 It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

Can we not switch the sexes on both verses?

Should she divorce him or just separate from him until he repents in sackcloth?

Many women beat their husbands, mentally…. The Bible does not say to divorce her, why can’t we judge what is right?

You keep judging all men base off of the worse men.

So because the Bible doesn’t cover spousal abuse, it can’t be a reason for divorce? Perhaps important verses that mentioned this type of thing were removed?!
I think God expects more of us than to put up with abuse. But considering the church’s tolerance of abuse it doesn’t surprise me in the least. By the way, a man that is abused by his wife should seek a divorce. It goes both ways.

“A man who beats up his wife is not of the lord. He and his wife will never enter his Father’s kingdom.”

A man who beats up his wife is not of the lord. He will never enter his Father’s kingdom.
FTFY

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 9:24 am The vast majority of people who divorce shouldn't divorce.... They need to center their marriage around Christ.

This is true. But, what happens when one partner walks away from Christ and His gospel? What happens when that partner keeps having affairs with no intention on stopping?

It happened to me. Staying married to a spouse who is dedicated to Christ and His gospel causes stress, anger and fighting that cannot be comprehended by someone who has not been in that situation. The problems are usually caused by the spouse who has walked away from Christ because that spouse usually can't bare sharing life with the believer. Divorce is usually thrust onto the believer.

Been there, done that, I have the T-shirt.

David13 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 10:01 am Many times the kids adjust and recover faster than the adults.

Sometimes the kids say they should have got a divorce long ago. It's about time, some of them say.

In my wife's previous marriage, her older teenage daughters came to her and wanted her to know that if she decided to divorce their dad, they would support her in this action. He was emotionally abusive to her. She had never spoken to them about divorce.

In my second marriage, that wife's oldest 17 year old daughter came to me and said, "You should divorce my mom. You don't deserve to be treated the way she treats you. But I hope you don't leave because we kids really need you." The second wife was arrested for a crime and wanted a divorce. There were only 2 of her kids at home. I continued to raise them and even raised them after I got remarried to my current, wonderful wife. One of these 2 kids told my current wife and I that we are the only normal parents that they have. We still have a good relationship with these kids.

HereWeGo wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 2:30 pm

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 9:24 am The vast majority of people who divorce shouldn't divorce.... They need to center their marriage around Christ.

This is true. But, what happens when one partner walks away from Christ and His gospel? What happens when that partner keeps having affairs with no intention on stopping?

It happened to me. Staying married to a spouse who is dedicated to Christ and His gospel causes stress, anger and fighting that cannot be comprehended by someone who has not been in that situation. The problems are usually caused by the spouse who has walked away from Christ because that spouse usually can't bare sharing life with the believer. Divorce is usually thrust onto the believer.

Been there, done that, I have the T-shirt.

Like I said, there's always exceptions

But most divorce comes from the woman who is "unhappy".
Most divorce is BS

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 2:54 pm But most divorce comes from the woman who is "unhappy".
Most divorce is BS

I agree.

I just read some statistics that say that 80% of divorces today are started by the wife.

In divorces where the wife has a college degree, 90% of the divorces are started by the wife.

Many women don't seem to be happy with marriage nowadays.

Perhaps they are convinced that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 2:54 pm

HereWeGo wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 2:30 pm

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 9:24 am The vast majority of people who divorce shouldn't divorce.... They need to center their marriage around Christ.

This is true. But, what happens when one partner walks away from Christ and His gospel? What happens when that partner keeps having affairs with no intention on stopping?

It happened to me. Staying married to a spouse who is dedicated to Christ and His gospel causes stress, anger and fighting that cannot be comprehended by someone who has not been in that situation. The problems are usually caused by the spouse who has walked away from Christ because that spouse usually can't bare sharing life with the believer. Divorce is usually thrust onto the believer.

Been there, done that, I have the T-shirt.

Like I said, there's always exceptions

But most divorce comes from the woman who is "unhappy".
Most divorce is BS

And, if I may ask, exactly, or roughly so, how many divorces have you been involved with?
dc

HereWeGo wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 3:04 pm

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 2:54 pm But most divorce comes from the woman who is "unhappy".
Most divorce is BS

I agree.

I just read some statistics that say that 80% of divorces today are started by the wife.

In divorces where the wife has a college degree, 90% of the divorces are started by the wife.

Many women don't seem to be happy with marriage nowadays.

Perhaps they are convinced that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

Or, maybe like some of the psychological voices say, men are just really screwed up today.
dc

HereWeGo wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 3:04 pm I agree.

I just read some statistics that say that 80% of divorces today are started by the wife.

In divorces where the wife has a college degree, 90% of the divorces are started by the wife.

Many women don't seem to be happy with marriage nowadays.

Perhaps they are convinced that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

I think without a doubt people should try and make the marriage work. If both people are godly and trying then it almost always will.
However certainly there are cases where divorce is the correct solution.
If you wish you were dead every day then I think God understands when you divorce instead.

David13 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 3:26 pm

nightlight wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 2:54 pm

HereWeGo wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 2:30 pm

This is true. But, what happens when one partner walks away from Christ and His gospel? What happens when that partner keeps having affairs with no intention on stopping?

It happened to me. Staying married to a spouse who is dedicated to Christ and His gospel causes stress, anger and fighting that cannot be comprehended by someone who has not been in that situation. The problems are usually caused by the spouse who has walked away from Christ because that spouse usually can't bare sharing life with the believer. Divorce is usually thrust onto the believer.

Been there, done that, I have the T-shirt.

Like I said, there's always exceptions

But most divorce comes from the woman who is "unhappy".
Most divorce is BS

And, if I may ask, exactly, or roughly so, how many divorces have you been involved with?
dc

I'm 34 and have been married 9 years, but have been living with my wife for like 14 years

Lol but how do I know that most divorce is BS.... because I can read statistics and a crowd

marc wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:43 am Is divorce in all cases wrong? I don't know. I'm ok with not knowing. A neighbor of mine divorced her husband only after wrestling with the Lord for a long time and finally receiving an audible answer while visiting the temple. If I recall correctly, he was very abusive and she struggled with staying and receiving abuse continually or moving on. Today she is remarried with a good man who is a good husband and a good father. I believe Rob would defer to the Lord's answer in her case. She sought out the Lord in this specific matter faithfully and God answered appropriately in this specific case.

Or she pestered the Lord, ( give me what I want) to the point of, (if He truly did answer her) the Lord just said "do what you want, you have agency".

simpleton wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 8:04 am

marc wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:43 am Is divorce in all cases wrong? I don't know. I'm ok with not knowing. A neighbor of mine divorced her husband only after wrestling with the Lord for a long time and finally receiving an audible answer while visiting the temple. If I recall correctly, he was very abusive and she struggled with staying and receiving abuse continually or moving on. Today she is remarried with a good man who is a good husband and a good father. I believe Rob would defer to the Lord's answer in her case. She sought out the Lord in this specific matter faithfully and God answered appropriately in this specific case.

Or she pestered the Lord, ( give me what I want) to the point of, (if He truly did answer her) the Lord just said "do what you want, you have agency".

Perhaps. She could have stayed and then received clarification from God after her abusive husband had killed her.

marc wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 11:36 am

simpleton wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 8:04 am

marc wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:43 am Is divorce in all cases wrong? I don't know. I'm ok with not knowing. A neighbor of mine divorced her husband only after wrestling with the Lord for a long time and finally receiving an audible answer while visiting the temple. If I recall correctly, he was very abusive and she struggled with staying and receiving abuse continually or moving on. Today she is remarried with a good man who is a good husband and a good father. I believe Rob would defer to the Lord's answer in her case. She sought out the Lord in this specific matter faithfully and God answered appropriately in this specific case.

Or she pestered the Lord, ( give me what I want) to the point of, (if He truly did answer her) the Lord just said "do what you want, you have agency".

Perhaps. She could have stayed and then received clarification from God after her abusive husband had killed her.

She would have definitely gone to heaven as an angel and he would have been damned to hell.

Does it really matter?

We are just trying to justify two wrongs, both are an abomination. Obviously she didn't listen to the holy ghost and decided to marry a man who worships the wrong father.....

She should divorce him and repent in sackcloth and go forth and sin no more, i.E. start listening.

Some of you here would have done well in Old Testament times. Very militant.

marc wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:43 am Is divorce in all cases wrong? I don't know. I'm ok with not knowing.

ditto

marc wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 11:36 am Perhaps. She could have stayed and then received clarification from God after her abusive husband had killed her.

I have a little bit of a twisted sense of humor and found that funny. Hopefully that is not wrong.

Some people say just do what Christ would have done. However frankly I find that concept incredibly hard to navigate.
Christ was a God with unbelievable access to God and understanding beyond human comprehension.
In this particular case Christ may have stayed with the spouse even if he was physically beaten almost to death daily.
However does that mean he wants us to do the same?

The idea that divorce in all cases is wrong is silly. If my wife put an actual idol in the house and started teaching my kids to worship, it then I am out the door immediately.
If my wife slept around then I am gone. If my wife was violent or dangerous to my kids or me then I am gone.

We are supposed to have joy in this life not intentionally suffer because we think it makes us holy. We might as well self-flagellate then because I think it is functionally the same.

I think Jesus was clear in his statement recorded above. God doesn't feel divorce is right but because of issues he allows it and has since days of Moses. So, don't take it lightly as we do today. However, Jesus was very clear when he said that a man divorcing his wife for other than fornication is adultery, and the man commits adultery. Now what does that mean?

Seems like if the woman divorces a man it is ok as Jesus didn't say a thing. but a man wanting the divorce must end up paying the same price he would pay for adultery, unless there is fornication involved. I have stated several times that it is not clear that the sum of the sin of adultery has anything specific to do with fornication and sex. It seems to align with a wife's rights and her inheritance and her children. Even when Jesus spoke and said divorce is/may be justified in fornication, it can be said that the issue is her bringing in non-heirs to his lineage. I didn't see Jesus say a word about actual sex as the sin. Nor is it anywhere in the Bible or even BoM (for adultery, Corianton wasn't an adulterer, he was single).

My take then is clear. If you marry then need a divorce and worse if you are the man, you better be sure and ready to pay the price. and that price is/may include the price of repenting for or meeting the demands of justice for adultery. Also, in divorce you lose the reward. not that it matters in mortal life but it is a pretty big hit if you believe in exaltation and eternal life and celestial marriage. Of course the new marriages are of equal partners so maybe Jesus' statements don't hold. Mine are from when the buck stops with the husband.

I'm divorced. I am the one that filed. Sure there was infidelity, but who am I to say it was with knowledge due to health conditions. I was unable to get her to leave her boyfriend (along with bishop and others), while I had my young son. I still fret my decision, no matter the cost. I am the first to say divorces are at times unavoidable. I still had to pay the price Jesus mentioned. It was hell on earth. But sometimes we must go through hell to get to heaven, that is the nature of this telestial probation after all.

I know many divorced people, most seem justified in our societal nature. but come on 60% and that after 80% have lived together for years? Not a very good success rate.

Matthew 19: 9 "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery..."

I've seen several comments make reference to this, but it's surprisingly absent from people who claim that God is always against divorce.

My first wife left me, left the gospel (not just the "the church," but pretty much every commandment and principle of the gospel itself), drained most of our accounts, and fornicated around with her coworkers. She moved out. There were stretches of time I couldn't even contact her or find out where she was or where she lived. She readily admits that I treated her well as a husband but she just wasn't happy so that's her justification for what she did. No remorse then or now. Thankfully we did not have kids together, but I still held on for months while this was going on as she demanded a divorce, refusing to sign the papers until it was clear that there would never be reconciliation, and her love for me and my trust in her was nonexistent.

I'm now happily married to an amazing wife and mother with a family of my own. Is there really a notion that a just God of any kind will now condemn me for climbing out of that hell hole and finding true happiness with a real woman and our beautiful children?

I've been separated from my husband for 5 years. He definitely sees divorce as very wrong. Worse than even the abuse our children and I dealt with when living with him.
I have no interest in remarrying so not an issue for me.

I'm really starting to think this Rob Smith character is a QUACK.

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 4:56 am I'm really starting to think this Rob Smith character is a QUACK.

Definitely some extreme views.