LDS Freedom Forum

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:06 am Recently the online commentator, Rob Smith, made the comment that fat people are gluttonous and therefore sinful and therefore can't go to heaven. He has made this in books, articles, and videos now.

Taking the opportunity to use your post to pass a note:

Dear Rob Smith,

WTAF.
Have you looked in the mirror at your own imperfect body lately??
And who the H are you to judge the health issues and bodies of others and categorize a person's standing in heaven that way?

Does grandma with the cancer rotting her body get excluded from Heaven for that?

Maybe you forgot about our incorruptible bodies in Heaven? That those who go there, will be quickened and transformed FIRST?

ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL OF US live in corruptible bodies that have problems and break down and die.
ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL who go to heaven will be transformed FIRST.

Even Jesus had to be changed first before ascending to Heaven because his physical body was not good enough to make it thru the gate.
He had to be quickened and translated FIRST. Like we ALLLLLLL will be.

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-53.htm

Why do you think they didn't recognize him on the road to Emmaus? (Maybe Jesus looked like Jack Black IRL and they just paint him with an action figure body - same way they paint Emma Smith without her wonky eyeball and mannish face )

He was not in the same physical corruptible body but his new incorruptible body that was DIFFERENT - that COULD enter into Heaven.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NKJV

Yes Rob, even the fat people - even the bald ones can get into heaven! Remember - not a hair on your head will be lost.
But as of NOW, YOUR "sinful body" won't make it thru the gate to heaven either.

Sincerely,
FoxMamma

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:07 pm Some people’s microbiomes do not handle milk and dairy products well. So while some people do well with them, others don’t. Unless maybe they can change their micro biome. Maybe that’s how the kefir helped you. It has the probiotics in it. And it worked for you because you handle dairy okay.

If you've native European ancestry (including the British Isles and Scandinavia) you're likely to handle dairy well, because our ancestors were pastoralists early. People from sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia do not tend to handle it well.

Many people claim to be lactose (dairy) and gluten (grain) intolerant now. There is also a massive rise in IBS. It seems in the case of gluten intolerance much of it is down to processing methods, not the grain itself. As corporations muck around more with our food these issues are about to increase.

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:06 am Recently the online commentator, Rob Smith, made the comment that fat people are gluttonous and therefore sinful and therefore can't go to heaven. He has made this in books, articles, and videos now.
I disagreed with him and it kind of spiraled out of control.

He was certainly saying that in heaven we must be perfect in every way. However, he has reiterated this concept multiple times and sees any extra weight, in life, as a deficiency worthy of spiritual death. I think in a perfect world I agree. That one extra chip is wasteful however what about an imperfect world like ours?

For many years my wife and I have been involved in the organic food and permaculture movements. I have seen firsthand how totally messed up our entire food system is. The second you walk into a grocery store your food choices have already been made for you. The food we are consuming today, even the 'healthy' kind, has more calories and is less nutrient dense. Our animals are injected with hormones and antibiotics from birth so they can grow faster. The entire food system in almost every way is engineered for profit, not health.
We also have less need for physical movement because most of life today is sedentary.
We also have a medical system that would rather you take a pill, to fight the symptom, than fix the actual problem.
Some people also have genetic predispositions for certain conditions which doctors say accounts for about 70% of obesity.

When you combine these all together then yes I could see how anyone could be overweight even if they tried not to be. Other people don't try at all and they have super model type physique while eating nutritional trash.

For personal examples, my mother had 8 kids and it wreaked her body. She has always struggled with weight as much as I can remember.
I know another woman whose husband wrongfully went to jail for helping someone. She spent 3 years moving from campground to campground eating dollar store food. She was very unhealthy during that time. Would she have gone to hell?

I guess the basic question is what does it really mean to be perfect/complete and what is a sin vs just existing in a fallen world?

How I think Rob Smith looks after reading this....

Maybe keeping the word of wisdom in proper context here would help. It was given NOT by way of commandment. While it is important to take care of our bodies, and the Lord gave some very wise counsel in this regard, He is FAR more concerned over our spiritual health than this corruptible tabernacle of flesh. Dust we are and unto dust shall we return. Until we are raised incorruptible. While obesity CAN be indicative of slothfulness and gluttony, it is not always so.

Sounds like Mr Smith needs to tone down the unrighteous judgement a notch or two.

I just read on LDS Living how Russell Nelson stays trim.


https://www.ldsliving.com/how-a-dangero ... ry/s/90645


“He became a model of discipline. Though blessed with a lean body, he weighed himself every day and held back a little on what he ate if he went up a pound.”

I guess that’s what I need to do. But I have tried it. And it is so hard, particularly for women, to lose weight. Especially during childbearing years, I think female bodies want some fat on them. I read somewhere recently that perhaps even 30% body fat would be ideal for a woman of childbearing years. I know I was about 28% in my college years. Anyway, as I was saying, I have tried cutting down on the amount of food that I eat, and lost a little weight, not much, but my bloodwork from my dr showed that I was basically malnourished. !! So much for that. Maybe I (we all) need improved gut health. If we can absorb more nutrients from our food, maybe our bodies won’t be malnourished just by cutting back on calories.

I am no one in particular, but I'm pretty sure that people will reach heaven without being perfect.

As so often happens it brings me to the saying, 'don't judge me just because I sin differently than you.'

All require the grace of God.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 4:04 am I just read on LDS Living how Russell Nelson stays trim.


https://www.ldsliving.com/how-a-dangero ... ry/s/90645


“He became a model of discipline. Though blessed with a lean body, he weighed himself every day and held back a little on what he ate if he went up a pound.”

I guess that’s what I need to do. But I have tried it. And it is so hard, particularly for women, to lose weight. Especially during childbearing years, I think female bodies want some fat on them. I read somewhere recently that perhaps even 30% body fat would be ideal for a woman of childbearing years. I know I was about 28% in my college years. Anyway, as I was saying, I have tried cutting down on the amount of food that I eat, and lost a little weight, not much, but my bloodwork from my dr showed that I was basically malnourished. !! So much for that. Maybe I (we all) need improved gut health. If we can absorb more nutrients from our food, maybe our bodies won’t be malnourished just by cutting back on calories.

“He became a model of discipline. Though blessed with a lean body, he weighed himself every day and held back a little on what he ate if he went up a pound.”

Hmmmmm. Sounds like an obsessed manorexic to me. What man does that?

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 4:45 am

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 4:04 am I just read on LDS Living how Russell Nelson stays trim.


https://www.ldsliving.com/how-a-dangero ... ry/s/90645


“He became a model of discipline. Though blessed with a lean body, he weighed himself every day and held back a little on what he ate if he went up a pound.”

I guess that’s what I need to do. But I have tried it. And it is so hard, particularly for women, to lose weight. Especially during childbearing years, I think female bodies want some fat on them. I read somewhere recently that perhaps even 30% body fat would be ideal for a woman of childbearing years. I know I was about 28% in my college years. Anyway, as I was saying, I have tried cutting down on the amount of food that I eat, and lost a little weight, not much, but my bloodwork from my dr showed that I was basically malnourished. !! So much for that. Maybe I (we all) need improved gut health. If we can absorb more nutrients from our food, maybe our bodies won’t be malnourished just by cutting back on calories.

“He became a model of discipline. Though blessed with a lean body, he weighed himself every day and held back a little on what he ate if he went up a pound.”

Hmmmmm. Sounds like an obsessed manorexic to me. What man does that?

It's all so ridiculously embellished. We have such an infatuation with 'appearance', it's unbelievable once you see it. It's bad.

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 3:44 am Maybe keeping the word of wisdom in proper context here would help. It was given NOT by way of commandment. While it is important to take care of our bodies, and the Lord gave some very wise counsel in this regard, He is FAR more concerned over our spiritual health than this corruptible tabernacle of flesh. Dust we are and unto dust shall we return. Until we are raised incorruptible. While obesity CAN be indicative of slothfulness and gluttony, it is not always so.

Sounds like Mr Smith needs to tone down the unrighteous judgement a notch or two.

The WoW puts heavy emphasis on grains, although today many claim to have coeliac/gluten intolerance and they are carb heavy.

Niemand wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 5:30 am

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 3:44 am Maybe keeping the word of wisdom in proper context here would help. It was given NOT by way of commandment. While it is important to take care of our bodies, and the Lord gave some very wise counsel in this regard, He is FAR more concerned over our spiritual health than this corruptible tabernacle of flesh. Dust we are and unto dust shall we return. Until we are raised incorruptible. While obesity CAN be indicative of slothfulness and gluttony, it is not always so.

Sounds like Mr Smith needs to tone down the unrighteous judgement a notch or two.

The WoW puts heavy emphasis on grains, although today many claim to have coeliac/gluten intolerance and they are carb heavy.

The grains produced by industrial farming today are greatly inferior to the grains available at the time of the WoW revelation. Even now, it is much better to use Spelt (an older form of grain) than other varieties of wheat.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 5:56 am The grains produced by industrial farming today are greatly inferior to the grains available at the time of the WoW revelation. Even now, it is much better to use Spelt (an older form of grain) than other varieties of wheat.

I agree. They're often coated in pesticides which may be the real cause of many people's issues. If something is used to keep down bacteria, blight and mould, then it can have a detrimental effect on our own gut's biome and our cells.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 4:45 am

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 4:04 am I just read on LDS Living how Russell Nelson stays trim.


https://www.ldsliving.com/how-a-dangero ... ry/s/90645


“He became a model of discipline. Though blessed with a lean body, he weighed himself every day and held back a little on what he ate if he went up a pound.”

I guess that’s what I need to do. But I have tried it. And it is so hard, particularly for women, to lose weight. Especially during childbearing years, I think female bodies want some fat on them. I read somewhere recently that perhaps even 30% body fat would be ideal for a woman of childbearing years. I know I was about 28% in my college years. Anyway, as I was saying, I have tried cutting down on the amount of food that I eat, and lost a little weight, not much, but my bloodwork from my dr showed that I was basically malnourished. !! So much for that. Maybe I (we all) need improved gut health. If we can absorb more nutrients from our food, maybe our bodies won’t be malnourished just by cutting back on calories.

“He became a model of discipline. Though blessed with a lean body, he weighed himself every day and held back a little on what he ate if he went up a pound.”

Hmmmmm. Sounds like an obsessed manorexic to me. What man does that?

And let's face it, we can s**t a pound. He probably just needed to go to the toilet.

Being gluttonous and being fat are two different things. Fat people can go to heaven. Gluttonous people cannot. Thinking you are the judge of who is who, will keep you out of heaven. One of the issues I see in today's world, is people increasingly spend time worrying about things for which they have no control. What a person eats is entirely within the control of that individual. If you feel it is your job to shame that person, criticize or condemn them, then why do you get triggered by someone else's choices? It's one thing to recognize that someone's choices are stupid. It's another to be personally affected because of it. Many people get personally upset about the weight of someone else. This is a sign the person has an issue around being upset, which is more of an issue than the person who is overweight. In that way, we are all mirrors to each other. If a fat person causes you to feel discomfort, consider the issue is your discomfort and with that discomfort is your psyche in a heavenly place? Consider the person who was hit by a car and their bones are smashed and they are barely alive. Would you shame that person? Of course not. You would consider the circumstance and just be grateful that person is alive.
They have done studies that there is a strong correlation between obesity and incidence of sexual abuse. Being sexually abused is emotionally like getting run over by a car. But when you see someone suffering from that, or maybe you don't see that because it's not something easy to see; do you shame that person or are you grateful that person is alive?

Context is everything and I think gluttony we have little of, but misjudging people we have a lot of.

I say this knowing full well that I feel uncomfortable when other people are uncomfortable with people who are overweight so I am mostly speaking to myself here. I can't control that other people get upset by other people's weight. But I can control that I don't get upset by those who get upset by other people's weight. The end result should be, the ability to be grateful for people just the way they are. Skinny people don't need to reject fat people. And I don't need to reject people who reject fat people. The real issue here, is an issue I see in the human psyche in almost every issue of life.

Can we love ourselves and each other with our imperfections? Or do imperfections justify rejection and hatred? I think we all know that Jesus isn't a rejecting type of being. Anyone can come to Him. And if you come to Him and say I am worthy of your love because I always ate a proper diet... something about that is missing the mark.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 4:45 am
“He became a model of discipline. Though blessed with a lean body, he weighed himself every day and held back a little on what he ate if he went up a pound.”

Hmmmmm. Sounds like an obsessed manorexic to me. What man does that?

Yep

I once once fat, then became thin by changing my life style for the better. I don't approve of the life styles of most fat people I've met, and those of significant spiritual decay in my life are inevitably obese. A healthy body-and a part of "healthy" means "not overweight"-allows you greater freedom of movement, greater mental clarity, and greater spiritual receptivity. No matter what issues you have in life, having an unhealthy degree of bodyfat is 100% preventable and 100% treatable. You are not exempt from the laws of thermodynamics, and no obese person has ever been so after literally starving*. Excuses otherwise are corroding to your body, just as excuses against more spiritual living are corroding to your spirit. Almost every ailment we suffer in the first world is directly or indirectly related to an overabundance of body fat, and to not perform due diligence to address it is to either rob yourself, or to rob others in the event of medical care that is socialized or inflated through insurance. Your body is your own personal temple, and ought to be cared for and made to be as strong and beautiful as you can make it.

Fat people, however, can get into heaven. Give me a break! None of us will die perfect, none of us will be resurrected perfect. That's what the Atonement is for. To insist that a fat person will not enter heaven is to insist that a liar or an adulterer will not enter heaven. It can be true, and it can be false. We all have things to work on. As superior as it is to work toward a healthy body, I've certainly met spiritual, even Christ-like individuals who could otherwise merely serve themselves tremendously to lose five or fifty pounds. Fat people are not evil. Fatness, however, is a vice, neither more nor less than any other. I openly disclose that it is my pet doctrine if I have any, but physical health is a virtue that can be abused or overly focus on. Moderation in all things, a season to this and a season to that, Yin and Yang, and all that.

*This is not a suggestion that starving yourself is the optimal method of losing unhealthy weight. It is an illustration that, no matter your circumstances, being fat is minimally an implicit choice. Physical and hormonal issues that make it overly difficult to lose weight and that persist despite improvements to lifestyle are so uncommon that they are hardly to be spoken of.

Maybe HEAVEN made some people larger so the judgey jerks would be weeded out.

I hear Jesus used to hang out with the whores and thieves.... I guess they get a pass to be forgiven, but not if they were a little overweight.

Seriously how is this even a thing

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 11:41 am Maybe HEAVEN made some people larger so the judgey jerks would be weeded out.

It can go both ways though. You can have a prejudice against prejudiced people.

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 11:41 am Maybe HEAVEN made some people larger so the judgey jerks would be weeded out.

I hear Jesus used to hang out with the whores and thieves.... I guess they get a pass to be forgiven, but not if they were a little overweight.

Seriously how is this even a thing

1 Samuel 16:7
"....for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 11:41 am Maybe HEAVEN made some people larger so the judgey jerks would be weeded out.

I hear Jesus used to hang out with the whores and thieves.... I guess they get a pass to be forgiven, but not if they were a little overweight.

Seriously how is this even a thing

Lol. Luckily it isn’t a thing. It’s another one of Rob Smith’s dumb opinions. I heard somewhere that dummies don’t make it to heaven.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 12:31 pm Lol. Luckily it isn’t a thing. It’s another one of Rob Smith’s dumb opinions. I heard somewhere that dummies don’t make it to heaven.

He does have a lot of good points otherwise so I wouldn't entirely dismiss him.

Telavian wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 12:44 pm

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 12:31 pm Lol. Luckily it isn’t a thing. It’s another one of Rob Smith’s dumb opinions. I heard somewhere that dummies don’t make it to heaven.

He does have a lot of good points otherwise so I wouldn't entirely dismiss him.

I dismiss people’s religious interpretations generally and more especially when they say perverted things about 16 year old girls and fat people not making it to heaven.

Mamabear wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 12:56 pm I dismiss people’s religious interpretations generally and more especially when they say perverted things about 16 year old girls and fat people not making it to heaven.

It certainly clouds the good message he is trying to share.

Telavian wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 8:06 am Recently the online commentator, Rob Smith, made the comment that fat people are gluttonous and therefore sinful and therefore can't go to heaven. He has made this in books, articles, and videos now.
I disagreed with him and it kind of spiraled out of control.

He was certainly saying that in heaven we must be perfect in every way. However, he has reiterated this concept multiple times and sees any extra weight, in life, as a deficiency worthy of spiritual death. I think in a perfect world I agree. That one extra chip is wasteful however what about an imperfect world like ours?

For many years my wife and I have been involved in the organic food and permaculture movements. I have seen firsthand how totally messed up our entire food system is. The second you walk into a grocery store your food choices have already been made for you. The food we are consuming today, even the 'healthy' kind, has more calories and is less nutrient dense. Our animals are injected with hormones and antibiotics from birth so they can grow faster. The entire food system in almost every way is engineered for profit, not health.
We also have less need for physical movement because most of life today is sedentary.
We also have a medical system that would rather you take a pill, to fight the symptom, than fix the actual problem.
Some people also have genetic predispositions for certain conditions which doctors say accounts for about 70% of obesity.

When you combine these all together then yes I could see how anyone could be overweight even if they tried not to be. Other people don't try at all and they have super model type physique while eating nutritional trash.

For personal examples, my mother had 8 kids and it wreaked her body. She has always struggled with weight as much as I can remember.
I know another woman whose husband wrongfully went to jail for helping someone. She spent 3 years moving from campground to campground eating dollar store food. She was very unhealthy during that time. Would she have gone to hell?

I guess the basic question is what does it really mean to be perfect/complete and what is a sin vs just existing in a fallen world?

AN African cannibal and warlord serial killer will go to heaven, so long as they repent (as this one did) and change their ways.

Let alone fat people ; )

Which also means that people worshipped by the masses, like Llamas, President Nelson, President of the USA, Elizabeth II, and others, will be destroyed if God so judges that they are unrepentant + evil.

Do not underestimate the power of the Divine Judgment, mortal cousins. Ephesians 6 12, has more things to worry about than "fat people". Psalm 82, even the gods will be judged and cast down by God Almighty, let alone mortal princes who are at the bottom of the hierarchy of power.

God is not a respecter of persons. Meaning the Divine doesn't particularly care what mortals call themselves or how they label themselves. There is a different criteria at work in the Heavens.

As for how fat is accumulated, the poor abused body is simply increasing the mass to reduce toxicity. Toxicity from the poisoned food, water, and air. Toxicity from the hate and envy of those around them. Just toxicity in general, even from radiation like 4g and 5g. As for obesity, that's because some qabal decided to introduce high fructose corn syrup to the USA food.

Niemand wrote: ↑April 17th, 2023, 2:17 am

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:07 pm Some people’s microbiomes do not handle milk and dairy products well. So while some people do well with them, others don’t. Unless maybe they can change their micro biome. Maybe that’s how the kefir helped you. It has the probiotics in it. And it worked for you because you handle dairy okay.

If you've native European ancestry (including the British Isles and Scandinavia) you're likely to handle dairy well, because our ancestors were pastoralists early. People from sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia do not tend to handle it well.

Many people claim to be lactose (dairy) and gluten (grain) intolerant now. There is also a massive rise in IBS. It seems in the case of gluten intolerance much of it is down to processing methods, not the grain itself. As corporations muck around more with our food these issues are about to increase.

They are poisoning the wheat and the gluten is almost radioactive now. The lactose requires some of the digestive enyzmes or gut bacteria to digest well. But they also irradiate the milk and now it is basically like water next to radioactive plants.

The body then attacks the gluten and cells involved with the milk, because they are detecting a problem there.

dreamtheater76 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:37 pm Eating donuts feels like going to heaven…

.... for a couple minutes

I have been watching my sugar intake, cutting back significantly. Yesterday I broke down and had not one, but two glazed donuts. They were still warm! Less than 10 minutes later I was jittery and agitated. It took a couple hours for the agitation to pass. It was ugly, anxiety... complete loss of focus. (the heavenly feel was completely gone)

For me, sugar is no bueno.

As to the OP, my body structure will place me a bit lower on the "worthy to go to Heaven" list than I was at 15. (skin and bones.... should have been given a direct pass)