A place of discussion

[marc]

I guess that's one way to look at it. Interestingly, he addressed this just today.

I saw that and did watch it. I don't disagree with him that responding to comments is time consuming and responding adequately is sometimes not possible.
However, what if he is wrong about something though?

In the video he says he has repented of all of his sins, and then declares with no evidence that I have not, so therefore I can't comment if something is factually wrong?
That honestly doesn't make any sense.

I agree with almost everything he says in the videos however what if he is wrong about something? He seems to assume he is incapable of being wrong.
The whole thing only benefits him actually. He can say and do whatever he wants in his videos and then claims that either responding is beneath him or he is sinless so his views are superior.

He said I was a liar and I asked him how and he never responded. Now he can just claim he doesn't have to.
I showed in the scriptures how he was wrong about something. Now he can claim he is sinless so his views are superior.

I personally really like Rob and our backgrounds are so similar in many ways. I almost did a PhD program at BYU at the same time as him.
Both into Computer Science, both started companies, both military backgrounds, both kicked out of church, both in similar geographical areas.
I would love to associate with him honestly, but there is no way he is never wrong unless he is God and I think he thinks he is to a degree.

It seems to me that the vast majority of LDS (or Christians for that matter) do not testify that they have seen Jesus or that they have the kind of relationship with Him that Rob claims to have. Scripturally speaking, I can understand why Rob makes this claim. Otherwise many more people would be making their own videos or writing their own books or sharing their own experiences on blogs or on a forum like Facebook or here on LDSFF. To be a witness of Christ (to have this kind of testimony of Jesus) is also to bear witness of it. One does not typically have the kind of relationship with Jesus Christ that Rob claims to have or that Nephi or Joseph Smith had and not bear witness of it or else there'd be a lot more truly righteous people on the Earth. I do know of a couple others who have also met our Savior but who do not make it a public matter like Rob does. Also Rob doesn't know everyone else on the Earth to definitively claim that nobody else has repented. I get that. Rob can legitimately make claims, though, that most of us can't and he can support it. It doesn't make him all knowing, but it puts him in a much more experienced position with a much greater vantage point. Regardless of all that, I'm sure all people who have been in God's presence and continue to experience this relationship have personality quirks. Such things don't lessen or diminish what they teach despite how they may carry themselves. We could probably say similar things about Nephi or Joseph Smith who lost 116 pages of manuscript or destroyed a printing press or whatever. That doesn't necessarily delegitimize his standing with the Lord or make him a false prophet.

[Telavian]

It seems to me that the vast majority of LDS (or Christians for that matter) do not testify that they have seen Jesus or that they have the kind of relationship with Him that Rob claims to have. Scripturally speaking, I can understand why Rob makes this claim. Otherwise many more people would be making their own videos or writing their own books or sharing their own experiences on blogs or on a forum like Facebook or here on LDSFF. To be a witness of Christ (to have this kind of testimony of Jesus) is also to bear witness of it. One does not typically have the kind of relationship with Jesus Christ that Rob claims to have or that Nephi or Joseph Smith had and not bear witness of it or else there'd be a lot more truly righteous people on the Earth. I do know of a couple others who have also met our Savior but who do not make it a public matter like Rob does. Also Rob doesn't know everyone else on the Earth to definitively claim that nobody else has repented. I get that. Rob can legitimately make claims, though, that most of us can't and he can support it. It doesn't make him all knowing, but it puts him in a much more experienced position with a much greater vantage point. Regardless of all that, I'm sure all people who have been in God's presence and continue to experience this relationship have personality quirks. Such things don't lessen or diminish what they teach despite how they may carry themselves. We could probably say similar things about Nephi or Joseph Smith who lost 116 pages of manuscript or destroyed a printing press or whatever. That doesn't necessarily delegitimize his standing with the Lord or make him a false prophet.

I get what your saying and I understand that you have a history with Rob so I understand you trying to correct the record so to speak.
I have no reason to doubt Rob's claim however I think things are a bit beyond that point.

It seems to me that you are saying that if someone was in God's presence then they have an ability to assert whatever they want even if the scriptures disagree with them?
If someone disagrees with them then they essentially don't have an ability to do so with any credibility?

I personally find this idea incredibly troubling. For instance, I believe Joseph was a prophet who was in God's presence on multiple occasions. However, for a number of reasons in the Nauvoo period he started introducing false doctrine into the church. Joseph either did this knowingly or unknowingly. However, the doctrines were still false. I see no reasons why Rob can't do the same.

I might not be as spiritually advanced as you or Rob. However, if something disagrees with the scriptures then I don't have to accept it from anyone. Otherwise we will be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men".

I understand there is a lot of stress in what Rob does. However, I was never condescending in any of my interactions with him. He was though in every one of our interactions in which we disagreed. I guess this is okay because he is a prophet.
I claimed "Christ's entire life was a form of an individualistic sacrifice" he claimed that I don't "have any clue what Jesus is like, and perhaps should spend less time on YouTube".
I asked him why he claimed something when several scriptures disagreed with him and he responded, "would you yield to them if I shared them, when your mind is already made up"
I said the KJV is actually translated incorrectly in a few places and showed why and he responded, "Would you bet your salvation on a dictionary?"
I told him why he was wrong about something with evidence and he said, "Did God tell you this, or are you using his name in vain?"
I asked him why would he "imply that I have a closed mind and won't accept your understanding even if you tried. If you have anything to offer I am quite open to receive it." his response was "I no longer am implying, and given your obvious limitations in judgement, I don’t really care if you think I’m wrong."
He called me a liar and I said "I did not say a single false thing. If you think I did then, please let me know what it was." he never responded.

Why is it I have to accept everything he says with no justifications and when I ask for anything from him then he treats me like a pile of garbage? This is exactly what all cult leaders do so you stop asking them questions. I sat at his feet, so to speak, for a few years listening to every word intently and the second I had a legitimate difference then he cast me aside because I was no longer worthy of his greatness.

We will shortly see an unprecedented amount of false prophets all claiming to have a secret way to God. If the scriptures can't be a guiding rod then what can be?

[marc]

I get what your saying and I understand that you have a history with Rob so I understand you trying to correct the record so to speak.
I have no reason to doubt Rob's claim however I think things are a bit beyond that point.

I've never meet him, but I have exchanged messages with him from time to time. I'm not trying to defend him, but I'm trying to give you both the benefit of the doubt.

It seems to me that you are saying that if someone was in God's presence then they have an ability to assert whatever they want even if the scriptures disagree with them?

no

If someone disagrees with them then they essentially don't have an ability to do so with any credibility?

Not necessarily. I don't necessarily agree with him on everything. For example, I have a second hand ghetto porch swing like the one he upgraded. Unlike him, I don't need to rebuild mine into the best that it can be using up valuable time to do so. I'm ok swinging on a ghetto swing which I've had many years now and still use every summer despite it being ghetto. I understand his "good, better, best" philosophy about his personal time to fix-it time ratio, though, but I don't hold it against him.

I personally find this idea incredibly troubling. For instance, I believe Joseph was a prophet who was in God's presence on multiple occasions. However, for a number of reasons in the Nauvoo period he started introducing false doctrine into the church. Joseph either did this knowingly or unknowingly. However, the doctrines were still false. I see no reasons why Rob can't do the same.

Like I said, personality faults. David was a prophet/king who fell hard despite having been in God's presence. "Why stand we in jeopardy every hour?" as the Bible says. I can give Rob the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't sinned since being in God's presence.

I might not be as spiritually advanced as you or Rob. However, if something disagrees with the scriptures then I don't have to accept it from anyone. Otherwise we will be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men".

Whenever I find myself disagreeing with Rob about something, I do my best to dig as deep as I can, ponder it, considering the possibility that I don't have a full understanding and after prayerfully pondering it, I email Rob for clarification. He always replies with deep insights that I had yet to consider and by applying them, I have found greater light than I did before. He will always reply to sincere questions. Is it possible your understanding of a scripture is incomplete?

I understand there is a lot of stress in what Rob does. However I was never condescending in any of my interactions with him. He was though in every one of our interactions in which we disagreed. I guess this is okay because he is a prophet. We will shortly see an unprecedented amount of false prophets all claiming to have a secret way to God. If the scriptures can't be a guiding rod then what can be?

Nephi could be construed as being condescending to his brothers. The way Nephi answered them was not easy for them to accept. I am honestly not trying to defend Rob, though. He has proven time and again that he possesses much greater light than I do. But I don't think Rob is preaching a "secret way to God." Nothing that he has shared about seeking and finding God contradicts the scriptures as far as I have read. I'd be happy to try and address any scriptures in question and see if we can figure it out together.

[Telavian]

Nephi could be construed as being condescending to his brothers. The way Nephi answered them was not easy for them to accept. I am honestly not trying to defend Rob, though. He has proven time and again that he possesses much greater light than I do. But I don't think Rob is preaching a "secret way to God." Nothing that he has shared about seeking and finding God contradicts the scriptures as far as I have read. I'd be happy to try and address any scriptures in question and see if we can figure it out together.

Thank you for trying to figure things out. Like I said I personally like Rob I just think he has a major hard time with anyone that disagrees with him.
The best thing to do is to start a new thread and I can invite you to it or however that works here.

[marc]

Nephi could be construed as being condescending to his brothers. The way Nephi answered them was not easy for them to accept. I am honestly not trying to defend Rob, though. He has proven time and again that he possesses much greater light than I do. But I don't think Rob is preaching a "secret way to God." Nothing that he has shared about seeking and finding God contradicts the scriptures as far as I have read. I'd be happy to try and address any scriptures in question and see if we can figure it out together.

Thank you for trying to figure things out. Like I said I personally like Rob I just think he has a major hard time with anyone that disagrees with him.
The best thing to do is to start a new thread and I can invite you to it or however that works here.

If he does it's because he's been where they are and has had to figure things out on his own (like the rest of us have to) and if he spent time addressing others who disagree with him while the answers already exist in a previous video or one of his blogs or books, then he wouldn't get done the things that need to get done that require greater attention for a broader like-minded audience. I can relate to this. But I'm also not as focused on things like he is whereas I will spend more time with others in going over minutiae over and over again with people even though I've addressed things repeatedly, especially on this forum over the last ten years. There are times that I simply copy and pasted links to previous posts for people with questions rather than start over with an explanation because I know I addressed the question already in sufficient detail. Please feel free to start a new thread and ask your questions. I'd be happy to find answers with you. I might already have them, but who knows?

[Telavian]

If he does it's because he's been where they are and has had to figure things out on his own (like the rest of us have to) and if he spent time addressing others who disagree with him while the answers already exist in a previous video or one of his blogs or books, then he wouldn't get done the things that need to get done that require greater attention for a broader like-minded audience. I can relate to this. But I'm also not as focused on things like he is whereas I will spend more time with others in going over minutiae over and over again with people even though I've addressed things repeatedly, especially on this forum over the last ten years. There are times that I simply copy and pasted links to previous posts for people with questions rather than start over with an explanation because I know I addressed the question already in sufficient detail. Please feel free to start a new thread and ask your questions. I'd be happy to find answers with you. I might already have them, but who knows?

Him and I have communicated quite a bit actually. He is willing to communicate and sometimes that is links to previous videos.
I think he has done videos or articles about specific questions of mine 4 or 5 times. In that way that is pretty great.

However, when I disagreed with him then he was very forthcoming in telling me that I was wrong, I was dumb, I was not a prophet, I was not as good as him, and I was not worthy of an opinion as he was all of this with no evidence on his part, but an abundance of evidence on mine.

To me personally this doesn't sound like Christ. If I well researched something and went to Christ with sincere intent with questions and then he effectively spit on me and mocked me because I wasn't like him, then why would I care about anything else he has to say?

[marc]

However, when I disagreed with him then he was very forthcoming in telling me that I was wrong, I was dumb, I was not a prophet, I was not as good as him, and I was not worthy of an opinion as he was all of this with no evidence on his part, but an abundance of evidence on mine.

Wait...I can understand saying someone is wrong when they are incorrect, but he called you "dumb" and "not as good as him?" Did he actually use words like this to accuse you or were you inferring things that he did not say? There's a big difference. Are you a prophet? After all, you did say he is a "false prophet (or at least it is written in your previous post). Incidentally, when Rob said he has repented of his sins, he means ALL of his sins. We really don't just repent of one sin and ignore others. To repent in the original context means to fully return to God. It means to turn your back on ALL sins and be FULLy committed/recommitted to God, completely facing Him. This cannot happen if we are still facing one or two sins. We can make small course corrections and call it repenting, but the Hebrew Teshuva means to "return." We are either fully holding to the iron rod facing directly at Him or we are turned away distracted by something, anything. Then we might as well be guilty of everything else. The tiniest spot on our garments renders us unclean and thus all of heaven and no unclean thing can dwell in His presence. He cannot look upon any sin with the least degree of allowance.

[Telavian]

Wait...I can understand saying someone is wrong when they are incorrect, but he called you "dumb" and "not as good as him?" Did he actually use words like this to accuse you or were you inferring things that he did not say? There's a big difference. Are you a prophet? After all, you did say he is a "false prophet (or at least it is written in your previous post). Incidentally, when Rob said he has repented of his sins, he means ALL of his sins. We really don't just repent of one sin and ignore others. To repent in the original context means to fully return to God. It means to turn your back on ALL sins and be FULLy committed/recommitted to God, completely facing Him. This cannot happen if we are still facing one or two sins. We can make small course corrections and call it repenting, but the Hebrew Teshuva means to "return." We are either fully holding to the iron rod facing directly at Him or we are turned away distracted by something, anything. Then we might as well be guilty of everything else. The tiniest spot on our garments renders us unclean and thus all of heaven and no unclean thing can dwell in His presence. He cannot look upon any sin with the least degree of allowance.

I understand what you and Rob mean and I agree. I am just saying the entire thing seem like it only benefits Rob. He can say or do whatever he wants because he is clean from sin.
Rob said, "Do you know the difference between a scribe and a prophet? In which role are you acting here, and why not the other?"
"Did God tell you this, or are you using his name in vain?"
"Your saying it does makes it clear that you are lacking the necessary intelligence or honesty required to process this topic."
"I no longer am implying, and given your obvious limitations in judgement, I don’t really care if you think I’m wrong."

This whole thing was because I used 6 scriptures to show how Rob was wrong and he used none.

[Telavian]

Wait...I can understand saying someone is wrong when they are incorrect, but he called you "dumb" and "not as good as him?" Did he actually use words like this to accuse you or were you inferring things that he did not say? There's a big difference. Are you a prophet? After all, you did say he is a "false prophet (or at least it is written in your previous post). Incidentally, when Rob said he has repented of his sins, he means ALL of his sins. We really don't just repent of one sin and ignore others. To repent in the original context means to fully return to God. It means to turn your back on ALL sins and be FULLy committed/recommitted to God, completely facing Him. This cannot happen if we are still facing one or two sins. We can make small course corrections and call it repenting, but the Hebrew Teshuva means to "return." We are either fully holding to the iron rod facing directly at Him or we are turned away distracted by something, anything. Then we might as well be guilty of everything else. The tiniest spot on our garments renders us unclean and thus all of heaven and no unclean thing can dwell in His presence. He cannot look upon any sin with the least degree of allowance.

I started 2 threads and I am totally open to being wrong about both.
viewtopic.php?t=70640
viewtopic.php?t=70639

[marc]

Well, I know that words matter. Utilization of words matter more. It's one thing to explicitly declare something and entirely something else to infer from or interpret specific words into something different. That's why we have so many different religions about the same things. Someone who is clean from sin does whatever he wants, but that someone will not want to do anything to compromise themselves or their relationship with Father in heaven. Jesus always did whatever He wanted and the only thing He ever wanted to do was His Father's will. See how that works? I'll take a look at your links.

[marc]

It's fascinating that this discussion has died while the other two linked above continue being discussed. People prefer to talk about polygamy, sacred cows, apostates, fallen prophets, whatever, but who is talking about what it takes to exercise faith? Repentance of all our sins? Doing everything we believe in our hearts that Jesus would do if He were in each of our places. Whatever his individual flaws are, Rob is doing what he believes Jesus would do in his place. We all have a unique place of our own different from one another with different weaknesses, strengths, passions, talents, etc. But can we say that of each of ourselves-that we are doing everything we believe in our hearts that Jesus would do in our place according to our understanding of His character and attributes? Rob is walking the walk. Most of the rest of us just do a lot of talking.

[Ymarsakar]

It seems to me that the vast majority of LDS (or Christians for that matter) do not testify that they have seen Jesus or that they have the kind of relationship with Him that Rob claims to have. Scripturally speaking, I can understand why Rob makes this claim. Otherwise many more people would be making their own videos or writing their own books or sharing their own experiences on blogs or on a forum like Facebook or here on LDSFF. To be a witness of Christ (to have this kind of testimony of Jesus) is also to bear witness of it. One does not typically have the kind of relationship with Jesus Christ that Rob claims to have or that Nephi or Joseph Smith had and not bear witness of it or else there'd be a lot more truly righteous people on the Earth. I do know of a couple others who have also met our Savior but who do not make it a public matter like Rob does. Also Rob doesn't know everyone else on the Earth to definitively claim that nobody else has repented. I get that. Rob can legitimately make claims, though, that most of us can't and he can support it. It doesn't make him all knowing, but it puts him in a much more experienced position with a much greater vantage point. Regardless of all that, I'm sure all people who have been in God's presence and continue to experience this relationship have personality quirks. Such things don't lessen or diminish what they teach despite how they may carry themselves. We could probably say similar things about Nephi or Joseph Smith who lost 116 pages of manuscript or destroyed a printing press or whatever. That doesn't necessarily delegitimize his standing with the Lord or make him a false prophet.

I get what your saying and I understand that you have a history with Rob so I understand you trying to correct the record so to speak.
I have no reason to doubt Rob's claim however I think things are a bit beyond that point.

It seems to me that you are saying that if someone was in God's presence then they have an ability to assert whatever they want even if the scriptures disagree with them?
If someone disagrees with them then they essentially don't have an ability to do so with any credibility?

I personally find this idea incredibly troubling. For instance, I believe Joseph was a prophet who was in God's presence on multiple occasions. However, for a number of reasons in the Nauvoo period he started introducing false doctrine into the church. Joseph either did this knowingly or unknowingly. However, the doctrines were still false. I see no reasons why Rob can't do the same.

I might not be as spiritually advanced as you or Rob. However, if something disagrees with the scriptures then I don't have to accept it from anyone. Otherwise we will be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men".

I understand there is a lot of stress in what Rob does. However, I was never condescending in any of my interactions with him. He was though in every one of our interactions in which we disagreed. I guess this is okay because he is a prophet.
I claimed "Christ's entire life was a form of an individualistic sacrifice" he claimed that I don't "have any clue what Jesus is like, and perhaps should spend less time on YouTube".
I asked him why he claimed something when several scriptures disagreed with him and he responded, "would you yield to them if I shared them, when your mind is already made up"
I said the KJV is actually translated incorrectly in a few places and showed why and he responded, "Would you bet your salvation on a dictionary?"
I told him why he was wrong about something with evidence and he said, "Did God tell you this, or are you using his name in vain?"
I asked him why would he "imply that I have a closed mind and won't accept your understanding even if you tried. If you have anything to offer I am quite open to receive it." his response was "I no longer am implying, and given your obvious limitations in judgement, I don’t really care if you think I’m wrong."
He called me a liar and I said "I did not say a single false thing. If you think I did then, please let me know what it was." he never responded.

Why is it I have to accept everything he says with no justifications and when I ask for anything from him then he treats me like a pile of garbage? This is exactly what all cult leaders do so you stop asking them questions. I sat at his feet, so to speak, for a few years listening to every word intently and the second I had a legitimate difference then he cast me aside because I was no longer worthy of his greatness.

We will shortly see an unprecedented amount of false prophets all claiming to have a secret way to God. If the scriptures can't be a guiding rod then what can be?

Ask ur questions on this forum and i will endeavour to answer them to the best of my ability.

[Ymarsakar]

It's fascinating that this discussion has died while the other two linked above continue being discussed. People prefer to talk about polygamy, sacred cows, apostates, fallen prophets, whatever, but who is talking about what it takes to exercise faith? Repentance of all our sins? Doing everything we believe in our hearts that Jesus would do if He were in each of our places. Whatever his individual flaws are, Rob is doing what he believes Jesus would do in his place. We all have a unique place of our own different from one another with different weaknesses, strengths, passions, talents, etc. But can we say that of each of ourselves-that we are doing everything we believe in our hearts that Jesus would do in our place according to our understanding of His character and attributes? Rob is walking the walk. Most of the rest of us just do a lot of talking.

If you want to become jeshua s disciple, what is stopping you from doing it?

Here a story of a king. One day the new king wanted to know what to do for his kingdom. He asked his advisers anf they gave all kinds of fearful predictions and proclamations. Preferring to ask god, the king received a personal revelation to go out amongst the people incognito hiding his true identity. With little money just like a beggar.

In this fashion the king learned of how high the taxes were and that his kingdom s people were hurt by it but thr advisers were profiting so they never told the king.

Thus the king went back to the castle palace and got rid of his advisers.

[Telavian]

It's fascinating that this discussion has died while the other two linked above continue being discussed. People prefer to talk about polygamy, sacred cows, apostates, fallen prophets, whatever, but who is talking about what it takes to exercise faith? Repentance of all our sins? Doing everything we believe in our hearts that Jesus would do if He were in each of our places. Whatever his individual flaws are, Rob is doing what he believes Jesus would do in his place. We all have a unique place of our own different from one another with different weaknesses, strengths, passions, talents, etc. But can we say that of each of ourselves-that we are doing everything we believe in our hearts that Jesus would do in our place according to our understanding of His character and attributes? Rob is walking the walk. Most of the rest of us just do a lot of talking.

Topic focused discussions are more popular I guess.

I truely think Rob is doing what he thinks is right.
However does that in fact make it right?

I told Rob that there was nothing in my life I thought of as a sin and if there was then I trusted God to tell me as I promised already to fix everything.
Rob responded that he was sinless and I was not.

I like Rob. However all extreme personalities think they are right all the time, but that doesn't make it so.
I agree that there are other more important things to focus on. However if the path to God is becoming like Rob then I don't think I want to go there.