The Light After Death: My Journey To Heaven and Back (Vincent Tolman)

[Reluctant Watchman]

It's so sad to see how jaded we have all become, but understandable given the total lack of honesty anywhere in this world, especially from those we used to trust in the church. And government is even worse. The constant gaslighting makes us suspicious of everyone and everything. It's really hard to even ask the rights questions to receive the guidance of the Holy Ghost... and its going to get much worse... love is the answer, but that to brings confusion now

I've been surprised at the pushback given how these principles were taught by Christ and prophets in the scriptures. And, IMO, when taken with a perspective toward God, only leads to more light and understanding and less suffering in the universe.

2 Corinthians 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Again, tell me how this applies to the principles outlined in the OP. How are any of these principles out of alignment with truth or the teachings of Jesus?

[Nevervaxxed]

RW,
What are your thoughts on the evidence presented by Stormcloak (SC) concerning JS being a polygamist and debunking the video "Who really killed JS?". I've watched about a third of his 3 hour video, and so far it hasn't really addressed the forensic evidence presented by the film. Like every other "debunking", so far it's focused on proving there's no way BY and his supposed conspirators were in cahoots with the Warsaw mob. That to me is a strawman, because Richard's & Taylor could well have been there to ensure JS and bro did not make it out of Carthage jail alive.
As to Taylor agreeing to go to the basement cell, what else could he say w/o arousing JS's suspicions?? Just curious - sorry this is off topic...

[Reluctant Watchman]

RW,
What are your thoughts on the evidence presented by Stormcloak (SC) concerning JS being a polygamist and debunking the video "Who really killed JS?". I've watched about a third of his 3 hour video, and so far it hasn't really addressed the forensic evidence presented by the film. Like every other "debunking", so far it's focused on proving there's no way BY and his supposed conspirators were in cahoots with the Warsaw mob. That to me is a strawman, because Richard's & Taylor could well have been there to ensure JS and bro did not make it out of Carthage jail alive.
As to Taylor agreeing to go to the basement cell, what else could he say w/o arousing JS's suspicions?? Just curious - sorry this is off topic...

Here's where I have to make a decision about how much time and effort I place into deciphering fact from fiction. Prior to the "inside job" theory, I was pretty well set on the idea that the Lord never sanctioned polygamy in our day. The fruits were bad. It really messed up a lot of people. And, as I've noted many times, this is an anomaly theology by teaching saving and exalting principles through hypocrisy. Nowhere does this occur in scripture.

So where does that leave me? I know ballistics, having shot guns most of my life. They don't match up to the narrative. And a basic understanding of the narratives shows that someone wasn't telling the truth. The church has even started to massage the story because they know something isn't right. And, church leaders after this point began to lie about many things. They changed histories and narratives, admittedly.

Above all, they started to introduce false doctrines that directly contradict Christ's teachings. The idea that they "can never lead you astray." was sufficient evidence to show that while some truth is there, the Lord will not hold me accountable for setting aside any and all false beliefs, or joining myself to an organization that requires such obedience to man. God is much more kind and loving than the "covenant path" to salvation god.

[Nevervaxxed]

Thanks. Exactly what my "gut" is telling me - it just feels wrong... my wife picked up on it before I did, and she's a blessing to me and a naturally perceptive soul

[Peeps]

He didn't create our Heavenly Parents. IMO there are also creations that he was not part of, there are creations in this existence of other Gods, including our Parents. If we become like our parents, that means there are many Gods and many creations.

Colossians 1:
16 For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before ALL things, and by him ALL things consist.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 ALL things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not...
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Revelation 4:
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created ALL things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Both of you are responding from a very narrow perspective IMO....

Matthew 7:
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 10:
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber...

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.



Isaiah 46:
8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

A narrow path is very different than a narrow perspective.

If you want to quote scripture, that’s great, but it can be helpful to understand your thoughts as to WHY you are quoting those scriptures.

Because you said there are some things Jesus Christ did not create, when the Bible says that He created ALL things.

Reluctant Watchman:
"He didn't create our Heavenly Parents. IMO there are also creations that he was not part of, there are creations in this existence of other Gods, including our Parents. If we become like our parents, that means there are many Gods and many creations"

"All" means ALL. And when He says there are no other Gods in Isaiah 46, I believe that means He is the only self-existing eternal ONE, the other lower case gee-gods, are created beings, by HIM, the Most High, the Almighty God, who incarnated in the flesh as Jesus Christ, before that, He existed as the WORD of God. Read the gospel of John, because it testifies of who Jesus Christ really is in the eternal perspective.

The narrow way means having a narrow perspective too. There is only One life, one way, a life that split time itself by defeating death. ALL calendars of all cultures record something happening around the time we label as BCE and AD. That is the narrow path that leads to eternal life, these so called 'spirit guides'/ascended masters veer off this path, they will lead one to destruction.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Colossians 1:
16 For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before ALL things, and by him ALL things consist.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 ALL things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not...
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Revelation 4:
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created ALL things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.





Matthew 7:
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 10:
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber...

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.



Isaiah 46:
8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

A narrow path is very different than a narrow perspective.

If you want to quote scripture, that’s great, but it can be helpful to understand your thoughts as to WHY you are quoting those scriptures.

Because you said there are some things Jesus Christ did not create, when the Bible says that He created ALL things.

Reluctant Watchman:
"He didn't create our Heavenly Parents. IMO there are also creations that he was not part of, there are creations in this existence of other Gods, including our Parents. If we become like our parents, that means there are many Gods and many creations"

"All" means ALL. And when He says there are no other Gods in Isaiah 46, I believe that means He is the only self-existing eternal ONE, the other lower case gee-gods, are created beings, by HIM, the Most High, the Almighty God, who incarnated in the flesh as Jesus Christ.

The narrow way means having a narrow perspective too. There is only One life, one way, a life that split time itself by defeating death. ALL calendars of all cultures record something happening around the time we label as BCE and AD. That is the narrow path that leads to eternal life, these so called 'spirit guides'/ascended masters veer off this path, they will lead one to destruction.

Do you think Jesus created Elohim, His parents?

Oh, hold on, you believe Jesus is the only God?

[Peeps]

A narrow path is very different than a narrow perspective.

If you want to quote scripture, that’s great, but it can be helpful to understand your thoughts as to WHY you are quoting those scriptures.

Because you said there are some things Jesus Christ did not create, when the Bible says that He created ALL things.

Reluctant Watchman:
"He didn't create our Heavenly Parents. IMO there are also creations that he was not part of, there are creations in this existence of other Gods, including our Parents. If we become like our parents, that means there are many Gods and many creations"

"All" means ALL. And when He says there are no other Gods in Isaiah 46, I believe that means He is the only self-existing eternal ONE, the other lower case gee-gods, are created beings, by HIM, the Most High, the Almighty God, who incarnated in the flesh as Jesus Christ.

The narrow way means having a narrow perspective too. There is only One life, one way, a life that split time itself by defeating death. ALL calendars of all cultures record something happening around the time we label as BCE and AD. That is the narrow path that leads to eternal life, these so called 'spirit guides'/ascended masters veer off this path, they will lead one to destruction.

Do you think Jesus created Elohim, His parents?

Oh, hold on, you believe Jesus is the only God?

I believe the Elohim are the third that followed Lucifer as recorded in the Book of Abraham chapter 3 & 4, and Genesis chapter 1. We were taken captive in the war in heaven for not firmly choosing a side and being willing to forfeit our first estate, so we were taken into the lowest parts of the earth. Jesus Christ came in Genesis chapter 2:4 as the LORD God, and formed Adam with the breath of life in his nostrils, making him a living soul. Genesis chapter 1 male and females were made as "images," which are idols.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Because you said there are some things Jesus Christ did not create, when the Bible says that He created ALL things.

Reluctant Watchman:
"He didn't create our Heavenly Parents. IMO there are also creations that he was not part of, there are creations in this existence of other Gods, including our Parents. If we become like our parents, that means there are many Gods and many creations"

"All" means ALL. And when He says there are no other Gods in Isaiah 46, I believe that means He is the only self-existing eternal ONE, the other lower case gee-gods, are created beings, by HIM, the Most High, the Almighty God, who incarnated in the flesh as Jesus Christ.

The narrow way means having a narrow perspective too. There is only One life, one way, a life that split time itself by defeating death. ALL calendars of all cultures record something happening around the time we label as BCE and AD. That is the narrow path that leads to eternal life, these so called 'spirit guides'/ascended masters veer off this path, they will lead one to destruction.

Do you think Jesus created Elohim, His parents?

Oh, hold on, you believe Jesus is the only God?

I believe the Elohim are the third that followed Lucifer as recorded in the Book of Abraham chapter 3 & 4, and Genesis chapter 1. We were taken captive in the war in heaven for not firmly choosing a side and being willing to forfeit our first estate, so we were taken into the lowest parts of the earth. Jesus Christ came in Genesis chapter 2:4 as the LORD God, and formed Adam with the breath of life in his nostrils, making him a living soul. Genesis chapter 1 male and females were made as "images," which are idols.

Interesting. Why does Jesus pray to the Father?

BTW, and being created in the “image” of God is not an idol. We can’t just pick a word out of the dictionary and make any causal association we want. The 10 commandments specifically references “graven” images.

[Peeps]

Do you think Jesus created Elohim, His parents?

Oh, hold on, you believe Jesus is the only God?

I believe the Elohim are the third that followed Lucifer as recorded in the Book of Abraham chapter 3 & 4, and Genesis chapter 1. We were taken captive in the war in heaven for not firmly choosing a side and being willing to forfeit our first estate, so we were taken into the lowest parts of the earth. Jesus Christ came in Genesis chapter 2:4 as the LORD God, and formed Adam with the breath of life in his nostrils, making him a living soul. Genesis chapter 1 male and females were made as "images," which are idols.

Interesting. Why does Jesus pray to the Father?

BTW, and being created in the “image” of God is not an idol. We can’t just pick a word out of the dictionary and make any causal association we want. The 10 commandments specifically references “graven” images.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

The Strong's definition of "likeness" is:
"tem-oo-naw'; or תְּמֻנָה tᵉmunâh; from H4327; something portioned (i.e. fashioned) out, as a shape, i.e. (indefinitely) phantom, or (specifically) embodiment, or (figuratively) manifestation (of favor):—image, likeness, similitude."

The elohim were doing the embodiment thing.

Like I said, the "elohim" of Genesis 1, Abraham 4, are not the same as Jehovah Elohim, the LORD God, that formed the capital "A" Adam, with a living soul, and took one his ribs, and formed Eve in Genesis chapter 2:4.

Jesus Christ was praying to His Father.
We, ourselves, are triune beings, consisting of body, soul, and spirit. If we are that, being just mere mortals, how much more is the Almighty God Who created ALL things, when He was housed, or was "tabernacling" in the flesh, being "Immanuel, God with us" as it says in Matthew 1:23? We have a part of us seated in a heavenly place right now, according to Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Omnipresence is a thing we cannot do, or be, but we able to understand it in a limited way. The LORD God, Jehovah Elohim is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, All Knowing, and All Powerful. He can create matter ex nihilo by speaking it into existence by using His WORD. The Elohim cannot do this, they cannot create material, but are co-eternal with whatever materials/matter Jehovah Elohim already created by His Word. That is why they said "we will take of these materials..."

The spirit is what animates a flesh being, but that does not make it a living soul. That is the big difference between the Genesis chapter 1 male and female 'creation' by the Elohim, and Adam and Eve's 'formation' in Genesis chapter 2:4 "Jehovah Elohim" or the "LORD God," the Father and Son still as One. Their separation is described in John 1:1-14.

This is the whole point of Jesus Christ's mission:



To reconcile us back to the Father, we had rejected by leaving our First Estate. The spirit guides/ascended masters will lead people off this narrow path. Jesus Christ is the Second Adam.
1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Fallen angels have no problem creating physical bodies, they are probably how we have received cloning techniques, CRISPR-Cas9, etc. They were making meat suits for their wicked spirits to inhabit. That is how Cain found a wife in the land of Nod. The elites of the world trace their lineage back to Cain and his marriage into the Genesis 1 race(s).

We are stuck in 3 dimensions, or 4, if count time as a dimension. We can only understand these 4 dimensions. Or a lower dimension, like the 2nd dimension(59sec).

So we gave up our first estate to come here in a flesh body. That dies. That is why Jesus Christ came. To save us from that fate. We commit sin while we are in the flesh. These sins must be paid for in blood Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

We rebelled against the Father by wanting a flesh body. The Father does not have a body of flesh and bones as Section 130 of the D&C says. The Lectures on Faith 5.2 had it mostly correct, when it stated the Father is a "Personage of Spirit." The Book of Mormon calls Him the "Great Spirit."

The difference between the "Mormon Jesus" and the real, Christian Jesus in 1 minute:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxX-7sBnC4w- ... -fygoRME8h

This is part of my thoughts about this:

I have also been mulling over and ruminating on some things, some things you have sparked, like the those things written in the Pearl of Great Price, particularly the Book of Abraham, and Ezekiel 28 where it says satan/Lucifer walked in the midst of the stones of fire on the Holy mountain of God. I believe those stones of fire were us, when we were the "gnolaum," and that is where, and when, we were deceived into taking flesh bodies.

I was ready to dismiss everything in the Pearl of Great Price, but then I decided to examine it more closely, because of our discussions on other threads, and knowing that even Lucifer will give a person "enlightenment" --but it is like the partial truth he told Eve, for she did become wise, but she did surely die.

The Genesis chapter 1, or Abraham chapter 4 gods/ or the "elohim," are IMO, the rebellious third host of heaven led by the drag "queen of heaven," Lucifer/satan. Abraham chapter 3 tells us how in the preexistence we forfeited our first estate because Lucifer, described as the "one like unto God" in verse 24 (Isaiah 14 says Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High), said we would get glory added unto us forever and ever by choosing to go for a second estate in verse 26.

But this was the trap that got us taken into captivity to the lowest parts of the earth, as it is says in Psalm 139, I (David) was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Christ said this to the Pharisees in John 8:23, And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jude 1:15 has a stern warning for those who leave their first estate, those everlasting "chains" under darkness are the "ligaments of the body" according to Strong's concordance, and to be considered an impediment of what we are supposed to be. I guess it is like we have been paralyzed from the neck down, but we don't know it. We are supposed to be beings of light, yet we cast a shadow. We all fell before Adam and Eve, they just went into mortality first.

Fortunately, in verse 27 of Abraham 3, the one "like the Son of Man" was sent to pay for this mistake of ours. The decision to take on a flesh body was the original forbidden fruit. D&C section 130 is wrong about the Father having a body of flesh and bones, He is a Spirit. Lectures on Faith 5.2 says the Father is a Personage of Spirit. The Book of Mormon says He is the "Great Spirit." Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well, the Father is a Spirit, and is looking for those to worship Him in Spirit and truth.

The rebellious third is one of the reasons that the number 33 is revered by the occult. These elohim are the "adam/gods" of the LDS, though this knowledge has been "hidden" from the plebs-LDS, because that is what the very word occult means, hidden. The "enlightenment" of Lucifer being "god" is only for the higher levels like Master Masons/Master Mahons, though this is being exposed more and more everyday, because it is almost at the end of this world. And Daniel 12:4 says: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

These elohim are who the LORD God of Israel was at war with during the Exodus. They created themselves, and they were gods to themselves. Reading about origins of the Egyptian pantheon shows this. Joseph Smith was so obsessed with Egypt, that he purchased Egyptian papyri from a traveling salesman. The "translations" were likely from some copies of Masonic sacred texts, which have been kept by the bloodline/hybrid families, who trace their origins back to Cain, who married into them when he went to the land of Nod. They can have MMPs, while the descendants of Adam, or those with souls, cannot. Their spirits probably come through a different place/portal before birth. They lack souls because the LORD God did not breathe breath into their nostrils, to make them living souls. They are the original clones. Man now has the technology to make clones, and we probably received this knowledge from the fallen angels, who will readily impart forbidden knowledge so mankind will use it for their self destruction. They are the damed spirits that inhabit meat suits that Jude describes as:

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I believe the Elohim are the third that followed Lucifer as recorded in the Book of Abraham chapter 3 & 4, and Genesis chapter 1. We were taken captive in the war in heaven for not firmly choosing a side and being willing to forfeit our first estate, so we were taken into the lowest parts of the earth. Jesus Christ came in Genesis chapter 2:4 as the LORD God, and formed Adam with the breath of life in his nostrils, making him a living soul. Genesis chapter 1 male and females were made as "images," which are idols.

Interesting. Why does Jesus pray to the Father?

BTW, and being created in the “image” of God is not an idol. We can’t just pick a word out of the dictionary and make any causal association we want. The 10 commandments specifically references “graven” images.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

The Strong's definition of "likeness" is:
"tem-oo-naw'; or תְּמֻנָה tᵉmunâh; from H4327; something portioned (i.e. fashioned) out, as a shape, i.e. (indefinitely) phantom, or (specifically) embodiment, or (figuratively) manifestation (of favor):—image, likeness, similitude."

The elohim were doing the embodiment thing.

Like I said, the "elohim" of Genesis 1, Abraham 4, are not the same as Jehovah Elohim, the LORD God, that formed the capital "A" Adam, with a living soul, and took one his ribs, and formed Eve in Genesis chapter 2:4.

Jesus Christ was praying to His Father.
We, ourselves, are triune beings, consisting of body, soul, and spirit. If we are that, being just mere mortals, how much more is the Almighty God Who created ALL things, when He was housed, or was "tabernacling" in the flesh, being "Immanuel, God with us" as it says in Matthew 1:23? We have a part of us seated in a heavenly place right now, according to Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Omnipresence is a thing we cannot do, or be, but we able to understand it in a limited way. The LORD God, Jehovah Elohim is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, All Knowing, and All Powerful. He can create matter ex nihilo by speaking it into existence by using His WORD. The Elohim cannot do this, they cannot create material, but are co-eternal with whatever materials/matter Jehovah Elohim already created by His Word. That is why they said "we will take of these materials..."

The spirit is what animates a flesh being, but that does not make it a living soul. That is the big difference between the Genesis chapter 1 male and female 'creation' by the Elohim, and Adam and Eve's 'formation' in Genesis chapter 2:4 "Jehovah Elohim" or the "LORD God," the Father and Son still as One. Their separation is described in John 1:1-14.

This is the whole point of Jesus Christ's mission:



To reconcile us back to the Father, we had rejected by leaving our First Estate. The spirit guides/ascended masters will lead people off this narrow path. Jesus Christ is the Second Adam.
1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Fallen angels have no problem creating physical bodies, they are probably how we have received cloning techniques, CRISPR-Cas9, etc. They were making meat suits for their wicked spirits to inhabit. That is how Cain found a wife in the land of Nod. The elites of the world trace their lineage back to Cain and his marriage into the Genesis 1 race(s).

We are stuck in 3 dimensions, or 4, if count time as a dimension. We can only understand these 4 dimensions. Or a lower dimension, like the 2nd dimension(59sec).

So we gave up our first estate to come here in a flesh body. That dies. That is why Jesus Christ came. To save us from that fate. We commit sin while we are in the flesh. These sins must be paid for in blood Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

We rebelled against the Father by wanting a flesh body. The Father does not have a body of flesh and bones as Section 130 of the D&C says. The Lectures on Faith 5.2 had it mostly correct, when it stated the Father is a "Personage of Spirit." The Book of Mormon calls Him the "Great Spirit."

The difference between the "Mormon Jesus" and the real, Christian Jesus in 1 minute:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxX-7sBnC4w- ... -fygoRME8h

This is part of my thoughts about this:

I have also been mulling over and ruminating on some things, some things you have sparked, like the those things written in the Pearl of Great Price, particularly the Book of Abraham, and Ezekiel 28 where it says satan/Lucifer walked in the midst of the stones of fire on the Holy mountain of God. I believe those stones of fire were us, when we were the "gnolaum," and that is where, and when, we were deceived into taking flesh bodies.

I was ready to dismiss everything in the Pearl of Great Price, but then I decided to examine it more closely, because of our discussions on other threads, and knowing that even Lucifer will give a person "enlightenment" --but it is like the partial truth he told Eve, for she did become wise, but she did surely die.

The Genesis chapter 1, or Abraham chapter 4 gods/ or the "elohim," are IMO, the rebellious third host of heaven led by the drag "queen of heaven," Lucifer/satan. Abraham chapter 3 tells us how in the preexistence we forfeited our first estate because Lucifer, described as the "one like unto God" in verse 24 (Isaiah 14 says Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High), said we would get glory added unto us forever and ever by choosing to go for a second estate in verse 26.

But this was the trap that got us taken into captivity to the lowest parts of the earth, as it is says in Psalm 139, I (David) was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Christ said this to the Pharisees in John 8:23, And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jude 1:15 has a stern warning for those who leave their first estate, those everlasting "chains" under darkness are the "ligaments of the body" according to Strong's concordance, and to be considered an impediment of what we are supposed to be. I guess it is like we have been paralyzed from the neck down, but we don't know it. We are supposed to be beings of light, yet we cast a shadow. We all fell before Adam and Eve, they just went into mortality first.

Fortunately, in verse 27 of Abraham 3, the one "like the Son of Man" was sent to pay for this mistake of ours. The decision to take on a flesh body was the original forbidden fruit. D&C section 130 is wrong about the Father having a body of flesh and bones, He is a Spirit. Lectures on Faith 5.2 says the Father is a Personage of Spirit. The Book of Mormon says He is the "Great Spirit." Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well, the Father is a Spirit, and is looking for those to worship Him in Spirit and truth.

The rebellious third is one of the reasons that the number 33 is revered by the occult. These elohim are the "adam/gods" of the LDS, though this knowledge has been "hidden" from the plebs-LDS, because that is what the very word occult means, hidden. The "enlightenment" of Lucifer being "god" is only for the higher levels like Master Masons/Master Mahons, though this is being exposed more and more everyday, because it is almost at the end of this world. And Daniel 12:4 says: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

These elohim are who the LORD God of Israel was at war with during the Exodus. They created themselves, and they were gods to themselves. Reading about origins of the Egyptian pantheon shows this. Joseph Smith was so obsessed with Egypt, that he purchased Egyptian papyri from a traveling salesman. The "translations" were likely from some copies of Masonic sacred texts, which have been kept by the bloodline/hybrid families, who trace their origins back to Cain, who married into them when he went to the land of Nod. They can have MMPs, while the descendants of Adam, or those with souls, cannot. Their spirits probably come through a different place/portal before birth. They lack souls because the LORD God did not breathe breath into their nostrils, to make them living souls. They are the original clones. Man now has the technology to make clones, and we probably received this knowledge from the fallen angels, who will readily impart forbidden knowledge so mankind will use it for their self destruction. They are the damed spirits that inhabit meat suits that Jude describes as:

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Interesting. In essence, you believe in the Trinity.

[Peeps]

Interesting. Why does Jesus pray to the Father?

BTW, and being created in the “image” of God is not an idol. We can’t just pick a word out of the dictionary and make any causal association we want. The 10 commandments specifically references “graven” images.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

The Strong's definition of "likeness" is:
"tem-oo-naw'; or תְּמֻנָה tᵉmunâh; from H4327; something portioned (i.e. fashioned) out, as a shape, i.e. (indefinitely) phantom, or (specifically) embodiment, or (figuratively) manifestation (of favor):—image, likeness, similitude."

The elohim were doing the embodiment thing.

Like I said, the "elohim" of Genesis 1, Abraham 4, are not the same as Jehovah Elohim, the LORD God, that formed the capital "A" Adam, with a living soul, and took one his ribs, and formed Eve in Genesis chapter 2:4.

Jesus Christ was praying to His Father.
We, ourselves, are triune beings, consisting of body, soul, and spirit. If we are that, being just mere mortals, how much more is the Almighty God Who created ALL things, when He was housed, or was "tabernacling" in the flesh, being "Immanuel, God with us" as it says in Matthew 1:23? We have a part of us seated in a heavenly place right now, according to Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Omnipresence is a thing we cannot do, or be, but we able to understand it in a limited way. The LORD God, Jehovah Elohim is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, All Knowing, and All Powerful. He can create matter ex nihilo by speaking it into existence by using His WORD. The Elohim cannot do this, they cannot create material, but are co-eternal with whatever materials/matter Jehovah Elohim already created by His Word. That is why they said "we will take of these materials..."

The spirit is what animates a flesh being, but that does not make it a living soul. That is the big difference between the Genesis chapter 1 male and female 'creation' by the Elohim, and Adam and Eve's 'formation' in Genesis chapter 2:4 "Jehovah Elohim" or the "LORD God," the Father and Son still as One. Their separation is described in John 1:1-14.

This is the whole point of Jesus Christ's mission:



To reconcile us back to the Father, we had rejected by leaving our First Estate. The spirit guides/ascended masters will lead people off this narrow path. Jesus Christ is the Second Adam.
1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Fallen angels have no problem creating physical bodies, they are probably how we have received cloning techniques, CRISPR-Cas9, etc. They were making meat suits for their wicked spirits to inhabit. That is how Cain found a wife in the land of Nod. The elites of the world trace their lineage back to Cain and his marriage into the Genesis 1 race(s).

We are stuck in 3 dimensions, or 4, if count time as a dimension. We can only understand these 4 dimensions. Or a lower dimension, like the 2nd dimension(59sec).

So we gave up our first estate to come here in a flesh body. That dies. That is why Jesus Christ came. To save us from that fate. We commit sin while we are in the flesh. These sins must be paid for in blood Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

We rebelled against the Father by wanting a flesh body. The Father does not have a body of flesh and bones as Section 130 of the D&C says. The Lectures on Faith 5.2 had it mostly correct, when it stated the Father is a "Personage of Spirit." The Book of Mormon calls Him the "Great Spirit."

The difference between the "Mormon Jesus" and the real, Christian Jesus in 1 minute:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxX-7sBnC4w- ... -fygoRME8h

This is part of my thoughts about this:

I have also been mulling over and ruminating on some things, some things you have sparked, like the those things written in the Pearl of Great Price, particularly the Book of Abraham, and Ezekiel 28 where it says satan/Lucifer walked in the midst of the stones of fire on the Holy mountain of God. I believe those stones of fire were us, when we were the "gnolaum," and that is where, and when, we were deceived into taking flesh bodies.

I was ready to dismiss everything in the Pearl of Great Price, but then I decided to examine it more closely, because of our discussions on other threads, and knowing that even Lucifer will give a person "enlightenment" --but it is like the partial truth he told Eve, for she did become wise, but she did surely die.

The Genesis chapter 1, or Abraham chapter 4 gods/ or the "elohim," are IMO, the rebellious third host of heaven led by the drag "queen of heaven," Lucifer/satan. Abraham chapter 3 tells us how in the preexistence we forfeited our first estate because Lucifer, described as the "one like unto God" in verse 24 (Isaiah 14 says Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High), said we would get glory added unto us forever and ever by choosing to go for a second estate in verse 26.

But this was the trap that got us taken into captivity to the lowest parts of the earth, as it is says in Psalm 139, I (David) was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Christ said this to the Pharisees in John 8:23, And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jude 1:15 has a stern warning for those who leave their first estate, those everlasting "chains" under darkness are the "ligaments of the body" according to Strong's concordance, and to be considered an impediment of what we are supposed to be. I guess it is like we have been paralyzed from the neck down, but we don't know it. We are supposed to be beings of light, yet we cast a shadow. We all fell before Adam and Eve, they just went into mortality first.

Fortunately, in verse 27 of Abraham 3, the one "like the Son of Man" was sent to pay for this mistake of ours. The decision to take on a flesh body was the original forbidden fruit. D&C section 130 is wrong about the Father having a body of flesh and bones, He is a Spirit. Lectures on Faith 5.2 says the Father is a Personage of Spirit. The Book of Mormon says He is the "Great Spirit." Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well, the Father is a Spirit, and is looking for those to worship Him in Spirit and truth.

The rebellious third is one of the reasons that the number 33 is revered by the occult. These elohim are the "adam/gods" of the LDS, though this knowledge has been "hidden" from the plebs-LDS, because that is what the very word occult means, hidden. The "enlightenment" of Lucifer being "god" is only for the higher levels like Master Masons/Master Mahons, though this is being exposed more and more everyday, because it is almost at the end of this world. And Daniel 12:4 says: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

These elohim are who the LORD God of Israel was at war with during the Exodus. They created themselves, and they were gods to themselves. Reading about origins of the Egyptian pantheon shows this. Joseph Smith was so obsessed with Egypt, that he purchased Egyptian papyri from a traveling salesman. The "translations" were likely from some copies of Masonic sacred texts, which have been kept by the bloodline/hybrid families, who trace their origins back to Cain, who married into them when he went to the land of Nod. They can have MMPs, while the descendants of Adam, or those with souls, cannot. Their spirits probably come through a different place/portal before birth. They lack souls because the LORD God did not breathe breath into their nostrils, to make them living souls. They are the original clones. Man now has the technology to make clones, and we probably received this knowledge from the fallen angels, who will readily impart forbidden knowledge so mankind will use it for their self destruction. They are the damed spirits that inhabit meat suits that Jude describes as:

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Interesting. In essence, you believe in the Trinity.

No, not as it was defined by the Council of Nicea, or any other traditions of men.

[Peeps]

Reluctant Watchman, I do not believe we can put made-made labels, or definitions on Jesus Christ, Who is God, the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, He is ALL those, and much more that defies any articulation. Jesus explains it to Nicodemus this way in John 3:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

If one is not born of the Spirit, they cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Reluctant Watchman, I do not believe we can put made-made labels, or definitions on Jesus Christ, Who is God, the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, He is ALL those, and much more that defies any articulation. Jesus explains it to Nicodemus this way in John 3:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

If one is not born of the Spirit, they cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

Jeaus had many titles, but that doesn't negate the idea that he was a son of Heavenly Parents. The same parents as we have.

Do you believe we can become Gods?

[Reluctant Watchman]

“All we get to carry with us are our relationships, so why do we pour so much attention into all the other things (worldly things), and so little attention into our relationships?” —Vincent Tolman

[Peeps]

Jesus had many titles, but that doesn't negate the idea that he was a son of Heavenly Parents. The same parents as we have.

Do you believe we can become Gods?

No, we do not become "gods" with a capital "G." We become can become "sons of God," or the "bride of Christ," or "joint heirs" with Christ, by being Spiritually reborn, becoming a "new creature," whichever terminology you prefer, but we must become one in Christ to be saved. That kind of thinking is what got Lucifer cast out of Heaven. It is hubris.

God does not create after the manner of the flesh with His "wives," He speaks things into existence, by using His WORD, the very Word who became flesh, and dwelt among us as Jesus Christ, to atone for our sins we have committed while we are in these sinful, flesh bodies. So no, Jesus did not have "heavenly parents," and neither did we.

The thought of becoming like God is very thing that tempted and deceived Eve. That is the forbidden fruit, to become a god to oneself. That is what the Egyptian gods did, trying to pursue immortality in their flesh.

God is sovereign. He resists the proud, those that exalt themselves. Here are two examples of individuals exalting themselves, King Nebuchadnezzar, who repented, and Herod, who died from worms.

Daniel 4:
17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men....
29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee...

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Acts 12:
21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Mormons tend focus on being "exalted" vs being "saved", from the false doctrine of D&C sec. 132, and have vain and foolish imaginations, that there is a better, superior eternal experience than being with Jesus Christ forever and ever. There is not.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Jesus had many titles, but that doesn't negate the idea that he was a son of Heavenly Parents. The same parents as we have.

Do you believe we can become Gods?

No, we do not become "gods" with a capital "G." We become can become "sons of God," or the "bride of Christ," or "joint heirs" with Christ, by being Spiritually reborn, becoming a "new creature," whichever terminology you prefer, but we must become one in Christ to be saved. That kind of thinking is what got Lucifer cast out of Heaven. It is hubris.

God does not create after the manner of the flesh with His "wives," He speaks things into existence, by using His WORD, the very Word who became flesh, and dwelt among us as Jesus Christ, to atone for our sins we have committed while we are in these sinful, flesh bodies. So no, Jesus did not have "heavenly parents," and neither did we.

The thought of becoming like God is very thing that tempted and deceived Eve. That is the forbidden fruit, to become a god to oneself. That is what the Egyptian gods did, trying to pursue immortality in their flesh.

God is sovereign. He resists the proud, those that exalt themselves. Here are two examples of individuals exalting themselves, King Nebuchadnezzar, who repented, and Herod, who died from worms.

Daniel 4:
17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men....
29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee...

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Acts 12:
21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Mormons tend focus on being "exalted" vs being "saved", from the false doctrine of D&C sec. 132, and have vain and foolish imaginations, that there is a better, superior eternal experience than being with Jesus Christ forever and ever. There is not.

So "Mother" in Heaven is nixed as well I'm guessing.

BTW, I wish you well in your viewpoints and theology. I don't agree w/ much of it, but we'll all learn how things operate eventually. And I could very well be wrong (doubt it, but you never know).

[Peeps]

Jesus had many titles, but that doesn't negate the idea that he was a son of Heavenly Parents. The same parents as we have.

Do you believe we can become Gods?

No, we do not become "gods" with a capital "G." We become can become "sons of God," or the "bride of Christ," or "joint heirs" with Christ, by being Spiritually reborn, becoming a "new creature," whichever terminology you prefer, but we must become one in Christ to be saved. That kind of thinking is what got Lucifer cast out of Heaven. It is hubris.

God does not create after the manner of the flesh with His "wives," He speaks things into existence, by using His WORD, the very Word who became flesh, and dwelt among us as Jesus Christ, to atone for our sins we have committed while we are in these sinful, flesh bodies. So no, Jesus did not have "heavenly parents," and neither did we.

The thought of becoming like God is very thing that tempted and deceived Eve. That is the forbidden fruit, to become a god to oneself. That is what the Egyptian gods did, trying to pursue immortality in their flesh.

God is sovereign. He resists the proud, those that exalt themselves. Here are two examples of individuals exalting themselves, King Nebuchadnezzar, who repented, and Herod, who died from worms.

Daniel 4:
17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men....
29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee...

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Acts 12:
21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Mormons tend focus on being "exalted" vs being "saved", from the false doctrine of D&C sec. 132, and have vain and foolish imaginations, that there is a better, superior eternal experience than being with Jesus Christ forever and ever. There is not.

So "Mother" in Heaven is nixed as well I'm guessing.

BTW, I wish you well in your viewpoints and theology. I don't agree w/ much of it, but we'll all learn how things operate eventually. And I could very well be wrong (doubt it, but you never know).

Yes, she is nixed. I believe the "Heavenly Mother" is actually Lucifer, the drag-Queen of Heaven, or the heavenly "muther," the baphomet, or ishtar/innana, who is desiring our worship and adoration, and is the same spirit, or principality behind the LBGTQ movement. And is the same entity the Catholic Church adores as Mary/Madonna. Here is some information about Ishtar-Innana:

"...The sexual identity of this goddess is controversial. In one late text, Ishtar says of herself: "I am a woman, I am a man." Ishtar could be viewed as a beautiful goddess of love who rules the day and as a bearded god(dess) of war who rules the night. It is claimed that the androgyny of Inanna/Ishtar provided a powerful symbol of the ambiguities of pure sexuality reflected in her cult, and in the transvestism of her cultic personnel (Groneberg 1986)...

In the first millennium bce, the two appearances of Venus were attributed to two distinct sexual manifestations: As morning star, Venus was female; as evening star, male. The two aspects are said to correspond to the double character of Inanna/Ishtar as goddess of love and war. Among the thousand prayers, hymns and references to her, there are only scattered mentions of a bearded form of Ishtar among the overwhelming evidence that she was female. In his hymn to Ishtar of Nineveh, Ashurbanipal, the king of Assyria (r. 668–627 bce), describes her as "Like the god Ashur, she wears a beard" (line 7). Ishtar of Babylon is once described as bearded and male. The question is whether Ishtar has a completely separate male manifestation or not. The references to her beard may allude to an astronomical phenomenon because her star, Venus, also has a beard. On the other hand, in Semitic cities, such as Mari, in the third millennium, there were several 'Ashtar manifestations, of which one was a male. Ishtar has been considered androgynous because even in her male role she never becomes fully male, but seems to be a female with male gender characteristics. She is nevertheless always referred to as female with feminine grammatical agreement.

CULT OF INANNA/ISHTAR
The festivals of this goddess involved reversals in categories of age, status, and sex. As articulated in one Sumerian hymn to Inanna:

Inanna was entrusted by Enlil and Ninlil with the capacity to gladden the heart of those who revere her,… to turn a man into a woman and a woman into a man, to change one into the other, to make young women dress as young men on their right side, to make young men dress as young women on their left side, to put spindles into the hands of men [―] and to give weapons to the women; to see that women amuse themselves by using children's language, to see that children amuse themselves by using women's language

The chief participants and actors in the goddess's cult are well known by name but of uncertain sexual identity. These religious officiants may represent the undefined sexless characters who occur in mythic tales concerning Inanna and Ishtar, although gender ambiguity often has religious connotations. While it is known that these cultic functionaries dressed in distinctive garments and adorned their hair and body in certain peculiar manners, their physical and mental constitution are uncertain. They could have been born with physical abnormalities, such as hermaphrodites, or emasculated into physically castrated persons, or they could have been persons whose mental sexual identity was androgynous, such as transvestites. It is also possible that the inversion of their sexual identity and/or gender roles was maintained only in the performance of rituals. Through symbolic inversion, such beliefs and rituals provided a context for the resolution of conflicts often associated with gender roles and gender identity."

https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sci ... nna-ishtar

[Reluctant Watchman]

Jesus had many titles, but that doesn't negate the idea that he was a son of Heavenly Parents. The same parents as we have.

Do you believe we can become Gods?

No, we do not become "gods" with a capital "G." We become can become "sons of God," or the "bride of Christ," or "joint heirs" with Christ, by being Spiritually reborn, becoming a "new creature," whichever terminology you prefer, but we must become one in Christ to be saved. That kind of thinking is what got Lucifer cast out of Heaven. It is hubris.

God does not create after the manner of the flesh with His "wives," He speaks things into existence, by using His WORD, the very Word who became flesh, and dwelt among us as Jesus Christ, to atone for our sins we have committed while we are in these sinful, flesh bodies. So no, Jesus did not have "heavenly parents," and neither did we.

The thought of becoming like God is very thing that tempted and deceived Eve. That is the forbidden fruit, to become a god to oneself. That is what the Egyptian gods did, trying to pursue immortality in their flesh.

God is sovereign. He resists the proud, those that exalt themselves. Here are two examples of individuals exalting themselves, King Nebuchadnezzar, who repented, and Herod, who died from worms.

Daniel 4:
17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men....
29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee...

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Acts 12:
21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Mormons tend focus on being "exalted" vs being "saved", from the false doctrine of D&C sec. 132, and have vain and foolish imaginations, that there is a better, superior eternal experience than being with Jesus Christ forever and ever. There is not.

Wow... heaven will be fascinating for us all, that's for sure.

Imagine meeting Mother (a true God in the full sense of the word) and thinking she was the devil.

BTW, I fuly believe that gender is important. I believe that both male and female endowments were necessary for creation.

[Niemand]

Above all, they started to introduce false doctrines that directly contradict Christ's teachings. The idea that they "can never lead you astray." was sufficient evidence to show that while some truth is there, the Lord will not hold me accountable for setting aside any and all false beliefs, or joining myself to an organization that requires such obedience to man. God is much more kind and loving than the "covenant path" to salvation god.

If we read the scriptures, we can see evidence of prophets getting things wrong. Joseph Smith was wrong about some things, which is one reason I don't appreciate him being whitewashed. At least the LDS admit that he made a mistake with the 116 pages, I suppose. The Lord will often rebuke his prophets when they make errors or misbehave.

(As I've said elsewhere in my thread about Biblical figures in the Koran, I'm not a fan of how that book tends to portray prophets such as David as almost faultless because that makes them bad models for imperfect humans to follow. If we know prophets stumble, it gives us hope for rectifying our own mistakes, instead of pure condemnation.)

[Peeps]

Wow... heaven will be fascinating for us all, that's for sure.

Imagine meeting Mother (a true God in the full sense of the word) and thinking she was the devil.

BTW, I fuly believe that gender is important. I believe that both male and female endowments were necessary for creation.

Imagine meeting the Muther, or Lucifer/devil, the "god of this world" in the full sense of the word, as written in 2 Corinthians 4:4, and thinking it was your mother!

Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Heavenly Father is a single Parent. He doesn't need our help in increasing the population of Heaven. 1 Enoch chapter 15 describes how the fallen angels were punished for giving up their first estate.

1. And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice.
2. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you:
3. Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons?
4. And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish.
5. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth.
6. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world.
7. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.
8. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling.
9. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men, and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called.
10. As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.
11. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger⌉ and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe018.htm

That is why immortals having "spirit children" is forbidden. It is where the demons came from. Jesus Christ even stated several times there is no marriage in Heaven, but Mormons put twist on it, as long as it's done prior to the resurrection, it will stand in the eternity. I guess being as the "mere angels" is not good enough for some LDS folks.

Mark 12
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Wow... heaven will be fascinating for us all, that's for sure.

Imagine meeting Mother (a true God in the full sense of the word) and thinking she was the devil.

BTW, I fuly believe that gender is important. I believe that both male and female endowments were necessary for creation.

Imagine meeting the Muther, or Lucifer/devil, the "god of this world" in the full sense of the word, as written in 2 Corinthians 4:4, and thinking it was your mother!

Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Heavenly Father is a single Parent. He doesn't need our help in increasing the population of Heaven. 1 Enoch chapter 15 describes how the fallen angels were punished for giving up their first estate.

1. And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice.
2. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you:
3. Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons?
4. And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish.
5. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth.
6. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world.
7. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.
8. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling.
9. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men, and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called.
10. As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.
11. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger⌉ and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe018.htm

That is why immortals having "spirit children" is forbidden. It is where the demons came from. Jesus Christ even stated several times there is no marriage in Heaven, but Mormons put twist on it, as long as it's done prior to the resurrection, it will stand in the eternity. I guess being as the "mere angels" is not good enough for some LDS folks.

Mark 12
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

The thing is, She ISN'T of this world. In fact, the furthest thing from it. She is the Mother of all Living. The exact opposite of what you are quoting.

[Peeps]

Ok, like you said, we will soon get to find out.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm listening to another video from Vincent and he said something interesting. In his book, he was very intentional in leaving out distinct religious connotations so that people of all religions would be more comfortable reading his story. But, what he did say was that the way he "felt" or was "able to move" from Earth to Heaven, (the highway or energy) was Christ. Christ was the one who facilitated the ability to make this journey (there and back).

[Niemand]

I'm listening to another video from Vincent and he said something interesting. In his book, he was very intentional in leaving out distinct religious connotations so that people of all religions would be more comfortable reading his story. But, what he did say was that the way he "felt" or was "able to move" from Earth to Heaven, (the highway or energy) was Christ. Christ was the one who facilitated the ability to make this journey (there and back).

I really wish that he'd included this in the other shorter account.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm listening to another video from Vincent and he said something interesting. In his book, he was very intentional in leaving out distinct religious connotations so that people of all religions would be more comfortable reading his story. But, what he did say was that the way he "felt" or was "able to move" from Earth to Heaven, (the highway or energy) was Christ. Christ was the one who facilitated the ability to make this journey (there and back).

I really wish that he'd included this in the other shorter account.

Does it matter? He was intentional in making his experience open to all religions and theologies. And, by doing this, he weeds out those who hold strong prejudices. People will eventually come to the truth. I mean, just look at all of us having come out of the LDS paradigm. According to Vincent’s experience, nobody who holds to the “LDS is the only church” to bring you to God, is the exact philosophy that will keep you away from God.