Who REALLY Killed Joseph & Hyrum Smith? A Panel of Experts Debunk WKJS Using Real Ballistics and Forensic Evidence

[larsenb]

. . . . . I already gave my explanation for the shot angle to the chin, but it was ignored along with pretty much every other point I made.

For these folks, it's Justin's way or the highway.

That's funny, because I took Justin's theory and, (with inspiration and PaulH's help) altered it slightly for the Inside-Job Hostage-Taker theory. That is because Justin's version didn't quite fit right with my personal experiences; however, he was very close. I literally 'got into the head' of John Taylor to figure out why and what made sense.

You "got into the head of John Taylor" !?? Interesting claim . . . almost endearing, actually.

[IsaiahVision]

For these folks, it's Justin's way or the highway.

That's funny, because I took Justin's theory and, (with inspiration and PaulH's help) altered it slightly for the Inside-Job Hostage-Taker theory. That is because Justin's version didn't quite fit right with my personal experiences; however, he was very close. I literally 'got into the head' of John Taylor to figure out why and what made sense.

You "got into the head of John Taylor" !?? Interesting claim . . . almost endearing, actually.

…you know, like detectives do.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Yup.

For these folks, it's Justin's way or the highway.

I'm still waiting for any of them to show how I'm wrong, when I concluded that Justin's proof for more the 2 guns in bedroom jail, did not constitute proof of that at all. And my analysis was based on using Justin's own words and quotes.

I'm still waiting for any of them to show and prove that the mobbers in the jail did not have hand guns and did not discharge them. If Justin covered this base, what did he say about it?

Show us proof there wasn’t. The multiple gun theory is just that, a theory. Get over it. You can’t necessarily prove one way or another. It is the collective evidence, lies, and OTHER false beliefs that round out a more comprehensive narrative. If you wanted to watch the video, you would understand where Justin was coming from on the multiple gun theory.

And to think that we are somehow beholden to Justin’s theory and one else is BS and a load of cow dung.

I added to my post after this one.

No, RW. Justin claimed he had come up with proof. He didn't call it just a theory. It's a major plank of his hypothesis.

And once again, what does he say about the mobbers having or not having hand guns, and discharging them or not discharging them? Can you come up with that information without saying: "watch the videos"? You could never get away with that tactic in a real debate. This is a real debate.

You certainly harp on Justin's theories and his videos. Tough not to conclude that you heavily rely on them.

There are some simple conclusions that can be deducted. The narratives behind WR and JTs stories don’t match. You can chalk that up to a lot of things. But one theory is they lied. At minimum, their stories are questionable.

I do stand firmly on the position that they had the MO to do it. You don’t see it that way. Ok, we disagree, we can shake hands and part ways on that issue. I fully believe corrupt men introduced polygamy after Joseph was murdered, and this practice was a driving factor behind their murders.

And to top it all off, from this time forward the entire church and their philosophies began to change and adapt, many of them for the worse. And today, well, they have a hell of a lot of problems, some far surpassing the issues surrounding the murders at carthage.

Regardless, the church is in full blown apostasy today.

There, that’s my story… no need to dive in further. Something just doesn’t seem right with the position the church leaders took then, and how they are handling it today.

[larsenb]

Show us proof there wasn’t. The multiple gun theory is just that, a theory. Get over it. You can’t necessarily prove one way or another. It is the collective evidence, lies, and OTHER false beliefs that round out a more comprehensive narrative. If you wanted to watch the video, you would understand where Justin was coming from on the multiple gun theory.

And to think that we are somehow beholden to Justin’s theory and one else is BS and a load of cow dung.

I added to my post after this one.

No, RW. Justin claimed he had come up with proof. He didn't call it just a theory. It's a major plank of his hypothesis.

And once again, what does he say about the mobbers having or not having hand guns, and discharging them or not discharging them? Can you come up with that information without saying: "watch the videos"? You could never get away with that tactic in a real debate. This is a real debate.

You certainly harp on Justin's theories and his videos. Tough not to conclude that you heavily rely on them.

There are some simple conclusions that can be deducted. The narratives behind WR and JTs stories don’t match. You can chalk that up to a lot of things. But one theory is they lied. At minimum, their stories are questionable.

I do stand firmly on the position that they had the MO to do it. You don’t see it that way. Ok, we disagree, we can shake hands and part ways on that issue. I fully believe corrupt men introduced polygamy after Joseph was murdered, and this practice was a driving factor behind their murders.

And to top it all off, from this time forward the entire church and their philosophies began to change and adapt, many of them for the worse. And today, well, they have a hell of a lot of problems, some far surpassing the issues surrounding the murders at carthage.

Regardless, the church is in full blown apostasy today.

There’s that’s my story… no need to dive in further. Something just doesn’t seem right with the position the church leaders took then, and how they are handling it today.

Unfortunately, your ‘deductions’ are more akin to being abductions, because though your conclusions may have some plausibility, they can’t be verified as the truth.

And I wouldn’t say WR and JT’s testimonies are questionable. This wording implies they were ingenuous about them, for which you have no evidence except to cite the inconsistencies (circular reasoning). Saying their testimonies don’t coincide in every detail is a better way of putting it.

Further, if WR and JT collaborated in murdering the Smiths, you would think they would want to get their stories straight. The fact they didn’t do this, lends some support that they weren’t in the kind of collusion you think they were in.

And instead of MO, I think you meant ‘motive’. The problem with your implication that WR and JT had a motive to murder the Smiths because they didn’t like JS’s alleged opposition to polygamy, is that you have no evidence that they took this stance (opposing JS because of his alleged anti-polygamy stance). Simply going along with the adoption of polygamy doesn’t provide this evidence

[Reluctant Watchman]

I added to my post after this one.

No, RW. Justin claimed he had come up with proof. He didn't call it just a theory. It's a major plank of his hypothesis.

And once again, what does he say about the mobbers having or not having hand guns, and discharging them or not discharging them? Can you come up with that information without saying: "watch the videos"? You could never get away with that tactic in a real debate. This is a real debate.

You certainly harp on Justin's theories and his videos. Tough not to conclude that you heavily rely on them.

There are some simple conclusions that can be deducted. The narratives behind WR and JTs stories don’t match. You can chalk that up to a lot of things. But one theory is they lied. At minimum, their stories are questionable.

I do stand firmly on the position that they had the MO to do it. You don’t see it that way. Ok, we disagree, we can shake hands and part ways on that issue. I fully believe corrupt men introduced polygamy after Joseph was murdered, and this practice was a driving factor behind their murders.

And to top it all off, from this time forward the entire church and their philosophies began to change and adapt, many of them for the worse. And today, well, they have a hell of a lot of problems, some far surpassing the issues surrounding the murders at carthage.

Regardless, the church is in full blown apostasy today.

There’s that’s my story… no need to dive in further. Something just doesn’t seem right with the position the church leaders took then, and how they are handling it today.

Unfortunately, your ‘deductions’ are more akin to being abductions, because though your conclusions may have some plausibility, they can’t be verified as the truth.

And I wouldn’t say WR and JT’s testimonies are questionable. This wording implies they were ingenuous about them, for which you have no evidence except to cite the inconsistencies (circular reasoning). Saying their testimonies don’t coincide in every detail is a better way of putting it.

Further, if WR and JT collaborated in murdering the Smiths, you would think they would want to get their stories straight. The fact they didn’t do this, lends some support that they weren’t in the kind of collusion you think they were in.

And instead of MO, I think you meant ‘motive’. The problem with your implication that WR and JT had a motive to murder the Smiths because they didn’t like JS’s alleged opposition to polygamy, is that you have no evidence that they took this stance (opposing JS because of his alleged anti-polygamy stance). That they simply went along with the adoption of polygamy doesn’t provide this evidence

No, I used MO correctly. Leading up to the deaths of these men they were doing some shady stuff. That shady stuff continued for generations.

[Bjǫrnúlfr]

Brother, it might help to listen to the experienced 'gun-guys'. I asked you earlier what your personal firearms training was...with no reply. You obviously do not understand. ...which is ok, all of us started out the same.

There is a thing called 'muzzle energy'; this 'kinetic energy' bleeds off (diminishes) the farther out the distance or shot is. So, Hyrum being shot in the head with a 69 caliber ball at extreme close range is devastating; while a civil war solider being shot at 200-300 yards in the head is completely different story. You also don't know if that civil war head wound was from a ball that ricocheted off the ground or something.

To make the point, a 223 round (AR-15) at close range is as devastating (terminal ballistics) as a much larger bullet. Velocity is everything. But, at 150 yards (with a 16" barrel), the 223 round's kinetic energy is about same as the muzzle energy of a 9mm at point blank range. This results in significant diminishing terminal ballistics (wounds). At somewhere around 250-300 yards, that 223 round's kinetic energy has bled off so that the terminal ballistics is now no worse than being shot by a 22RL.

So, a close range 69 caliber headshot means the head literally explodes...as in nothing left (see below). Watch the prior Youtube video links that proves this happens. Please explain why Hyrum even has a head or face to make a death mask? Please explain Hyrum's chin shot angle?

I understand how kinetic energy works. There’s also a huge difference between the types of wounds that are created by an AR-15 and .69 musket ball. You can’t even compare the two.

Smooth bore muskets aren’t accurate at 250 to 300 hundred yards. Most shots were fired much closer than that. Close range musket shots were very common during the civil war.
You’re welcome to produce research that shows that people’s heads were blown off by musket balls when fired at close range.

There’s also a huge difference between shooting a stationary gel head than shooting a moving human head. The ball will definitely behave differently inside a moving human head than a stationary gel head. Which means that all of Justin’s test are far from definitive. Looking at reports from actual wounds on humans with musket balls is far more valuable.

And please explain why you guys are fixated on a .69 musket ball, when the firearm that was used to fire through the door is unknown?

I already gave my explanation for the shot angle to the chin, but it was ignored along with pretty much every other point I made.

Dude, you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. I posted a youtube link to a guy shooting an original musket at a skull and you of course discounted it as i said you would when i posted it. Please explain how a "moving head" vs a "stationary head" would have any impact on the lead ball weighing almost an ounce moving at 1000 to 1200 ft per second? Or how a real human skull vs gel skull made to replicate a real human skull would have resulted in minimal damage to Hyrum's skull?

The shot that you claim killed Hyrum would have maybe 3 ft minimum distance to a max of 16 ft from the muzzle to Hyrum's head with a door in between. That shot coming through the door and hitting him in the face would have blown out the back of his head and shattered his skull. The hydrostatic shock of the ball going through his head at that speed would have blown his brain out all over the room.

The bullet holes in the door are .75 and .69 inches in diameter. So going with your theory (and the offical story), that the bullet through the door killed him, it had to be a .69 caliber ball. The Lyon brothers think it is the original door, as it is the same wood and design as the other doors in the jail.

I have linked the video again, these shots are from an original musket at 15-20 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXFK3304Q74

Please explain how this video is not relevant to the discussion.

You’re complaining that I haven’t addressed your YouTube video, even though you’ve ignored pretty much every point I have made so far?

The severity of damage that a .69 musket ball would make at close range is of very little significance to the conspiracy theory, since no one has claimed that Hyrum was shot by this and there’s no way of knowing what sized caliber ball he was shot by. So let’s stop hyper-fixating on this irrelevant issue and discuss the ones that actually matter.

Please respond to each of the points I made that actually matter regarding the huge problems with Justin’s conspiracy theory.

[larsenb]

That's funny, because I took Justin's theory and, (with inspiration and PaulH's help) altered it slightly for the Inside-Job Hostage-Taker theory. That is because Justin's version didn't quite fit right with my personal experiences; however, he was very close. I literally 'got into the head' of John Taylor to figure out why and what made sense.

You "got into the head of John Taylor" !?? Interesting claim . . . almost endearing, actually.

…you know, like detectives do.

You're just lucky JT's head wasn't blown off with a .69 inch musket ball

[Bjǫrnúlfr]

Here is an article that discusses the damage .69 caliber musket balls inflicted during the civil war compared to the much more lethal mini-ball.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/ap ... eld-wounds

A notable quote:

"In his memoir, The Surgeon and the Hospital in the Civil War (1987), Albert G. Hart noted that the rifled musket and Minié bullet combined to vastly increase the striking power of projectiles, resulting in "more dangerous wounds." Whereas a smoothbore round might be deflected from a thigh bone "with no serious injury," a Minié bullet "under similar conditions might not only fracture, but crush two or three inches of the bone" (p. 34). The fact that a high percentage of wounds treated by field hospitals had been caused by Minié bullets and musket balls indicates that small arms fire was generally not immediately fatal. Indeed, there are many examples of men shot through the head who lingered for hours or days before they died."

Brother, it might help to listen to the experienced 'gun-guys'. I asked you earlier what your personal firearms training was...with no reply. You obviously do not understand. ...which is ok, all of us started out the same.

There is a thing called 'muzzle energy'; this 'kinetic energy' bleeds off (diminishes) the farther out the distance or shot is. So, Hyrum being shot in the head with a 69 caliber ball at extreme close range is devastating; while a civil war solider being shot at 200-300 yards in the head is completely different story. You also don't know if that civil war head wound was from a ball that ricocheted off the ground or something.

To make the point, a 223 round (AR-15) at close range is as devastating (terminal ballistics) as a much larger bullet. Velocity is everything. But, at 150 yards (with a 16" barrel), the 223 round's kinetic energy is about same as the muzzle energy of a 9mm at point blank range. This results in significant diminishing terminal ballistics (wounds). At somewhere around 250-300 yards, that 223 round's kinetic energy has bled off so that the terminal ballistics is now no worse than being shot by a 22RL.

So, a close range 69 caliber headshot means the head literally explodes...as in nothing left (see below). Watch the prior Youtube video links that proves this happens. Please explain why Hyrum even has a head or face to make a death mask? Please explain Hyrum's chin shot angle?

I understand how kinetic energy works. There’s also a huge difference between the types of wounds that are created by an AR-15 and .69 musket ball. You can’t even compare the two.

Good grief, you completely missed my point. And I wasn't comparing a 223 vs a 69 caliber ball; nor even comparing the "wounds" of such. It was an example of bleeding off kinetic energy.

Smooth bore muskets aren’t accurate at 250 to 300 hundred yards. Most shots were fired much closer than that. Close range musket shots were very common during the civil war.

Whatever. This is from Wikipeadia on Flinklock rifles: "Based on the Jäger rifle, but with a much longer barrel, these were exceptionally accurate for their time, and had an effective range of approximately 250 m (820 ft).[18]". That is almost 300 yards! Average Civil War engagement range was 100 yards, according to a quick Google search.

You’re welcome to produce research that shows that people’s heads were blown off by musket balls when fired at close range.
There’s also a huge difference between shooting a stationary gel head than shooting a moving human head.

Sigh. Sorry to have to attach all the civil war skulls below. Respectfully, you do not know what you are talking about. I'd say that in the first picture the entire back and most of the skull was blown off? The second picture looks as if the skull has been 'put back together' with staples.

I have taken a dozen professional precision rifle (sniper) classes, one of which was when I was invited to our Sheriff's Office SWAT Team week-long sniper class. I have had medical doctors and true professionals, including former Marine Snipers, explain the realities and I have seen pictures/videos of headshots....the stuff you don't see on Google or YouTube.

Please stop making claims on stuff that you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

And please explain why you guys are fixated on a .69 musket ball, when the firearm that was used to fire through the door is unknown?

No, I'm not. Terminal ballistics/Hyrum's face/death mask all tell me that only the smallest and lease muzzle energy handgun (Pepperbox pistol?...equivalent to a 22RL) would have caused so little external face damage. I don't see any small holes in the door, if it is actually the 'real door'. Any other experienced gun-guys think I'm wrong on this? PaulH?

I already gave my explanation for the shot angle to the chin, but it was ignored along with pretty much every other point I made.

I scanned all your previous posts since 9/15. The only thing I can find is, "Yes, I believe that a ball went through the door and struck Hyrum in the face." Regardless of the hole or door, would you please clarify how you would place Hyrum's head in a horizontal position to get the face shot angle?

Unlike you, I don’t claim to be a “gun expert," but I do know the difference between a smooth bore musket and a rifle. But I don’t think you do, since you attempted to refute my factual statement that smooth bore muskets weren’t accurate at 200+ yards with a quote from a Wikipedia article about jaeger rifles.

So please tell me again, who doesn’t know what they are talking about?

I’m assuming that you can verify that each of the skulls from the Civil War you posted were damaged by smooth bore .69 musket balls at close range and not mini-balls, artillery, or some other means?

And I would like to once again point out that I’m not disputing that .69 musket ball shots to the head don’t often significantly damage skulls.

And I’m sorry that you were unable to locate my answer to the question you posed earlier about the chin shot angle after you originally completely ignored it. I guess you’ll have to keep looking. It’s there. Let me know when you find it.

Still waiting on a response to any of the actual points I made.

[IsaiahVision]

You "got into the head of John Taylor" !?? Interesting claim . . . almost endearing, actually.

…you know, like detectives do.

You're just lucky JT's head wasn't blown off with a .69 inch musket ball

LOL. That was a good one.

[PaulH]

I understand how kinetic energy works. There’s also a huge difference between the types of wounds that are created by an AR-15 and .69 musket ball. You can’t even compare the two.

Smooth bore muskets aren’t accurate at 250 to 300 hundred yards. Most shots were fired much closer than that. Close range musket shots were very common during the civil war.
You’re welcome to produce research that shows that people’s heads were blown off by musket balls when fired at close range.

There’s also a huge difference between shooting a stationary gel head than shooting a moving human head. The ball will definitely behave differently inside a moving human head than a stationary gel head. Which means that all of Justin’s test are far from definitive. Looking at reports from actual wounds on humans with musket balls is far more valuable.

And please explain why you guys are fixated on a .69 musket ball, when the firearm that was used to fire through the door is unknown?

I already gave my explanation for the shot angle to the chin, but it was ignored along with pretty much every other point I made.

Dude, you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. I posted a youtube link to a guy shooting an original musket at a skull and you of course discounted it as i said you would when i posted it. Please explain how a "moving head" vs a "stationary head" would have any impact on the lead ball weighing almost an ounce moving at 1000 to 1200 ft per second? Or how a real human skull vs gel skull made to replicate a real human skull would have resulted in minimal damage to Hyrum's skull?

The shot that you claim killed Hyrum would have maybe 3 ft minimum distance to a max of 16 ft from the muzzle to Hyrum's head with a door in between. That shot coming through the door and hitting him in the face would have blown out the back of his head and shattered his skull. The hydrostatic shock of the ball going through his head at that speed would have blown his brain out all over the room.

The bullet holes in the door are .75 and .69 inches in diameter. So going with your theory (and the offical story), that the bullet through the door killed him, it had to be a .69 caliber ball. The Lyon brothers think it is the original door, as it is the same wood and design as the other doors in the jail.

I have linked the video again, these shots are from an original musket at 15-20 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXFK3304Q74

Please explain how this video is not relevant to the discussion.

You’re complaining that I haven’t addressed your YouTube video, even though you’ve ignored pretty much every point I have made so far?

The severity of damage that a .69 musket ball would make at close range is of very little significance to the conspiracy theory, since no one has claimed that Hyrum was shot by this and there’s no way of knowing what sized caliber ball he was shot by. So let’s stop hyper-fixating on this irrelevant issue and discuss the ones that actually matter.

Please respond to each of the points I made that actually matter regarding the huge problems with Justin’s conspiracy theory.

A person with no leg to stand on says "lets ignore the evidence and go with how we feel". Which is what you said above.

I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions. I provided details that show that your theory (official story) is incorrect, you minimize and deflect. Based on your comments, you don't even know what the official story is. And you have no clue how Justin arrived at his conclusions. Which means we really cant have a meaning full discussion until you educate yourself.

You are late to the show, the questions you asked were asked by others earlier in the thread. Go back about 6-7 pages and start reading, several others beside myself have posted the answers to your questions.

[larsenb]

There are some simple conclusions that can be deducted. The narratives behind WR and JTs stories don’t match. You can chalk that up to a lot of things. But one theory is they lied. At minimum, their stories are questionable.

I do stand firmly on the position that they had the MO to do it. You don’t see it that way. Ok, we disagree, we can shake hands and part ways on that issue. I fully believe corrupt men introduced polygamy after Joseph was murdered, and this practice was a driving factor behind their murders.

And to top it all off, from this time forward the entire church and their philosophies began to change and adapt, many of them for the worse. And today, well, they have a hell of a lot of problems, some far surpassing the issues surrounding the murders at carthage.

Regardless, the church is in full blown apostasy today.

There’s that’s my story… no need to dive in further. Something just doesn’t seem right with the position the church leaders took then, and how they are handling it today.

Unfortunately, your ‘deductions’ are more akin to being abductions, because though your conclusions may have some plausibility, they can’t be verified as the truth.

And I wouldn’t say WR and JT’s testimonies are questionable. This wording implies they were ingenuous about them, for which you have no evidence except to cite the inconsistencies (circular reasoning). Saying their testimonies don’t coincide in every detail is a better way of putting it.

Further, if WR and JT collaborated in murdering the Smiths, you would think they would want to get their stories straight. The fact they didn’t do this, lends some support that they weren’t in the kind of collusion you think they were in.

And instead of MO, I think you meant ‘motive’. The problem with your implication that WR and JT had a motive to murder the Smiths because they didn’t like JS’s alleged opposition to polygamy, is that you have no evidence that they took this stance (opposing JS because of his alleged anti-polygamy stance). That they simply went along with the adoption of polygamy doesn’t provide this evidence

No, I used MO correctly. Leading up to the deaths of these men they were doing some shady stuff. That shady stuff continued for generations.

OK, WR did seem to be engaged w/polygamous marriages prior to the murder of the Smiths: "There is indication that his first plural wife was 26-year-old Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde, who was already married to Orson Hyde (Hyde was away on a mission at the time) . . . .On January 18, 1843, Richards married sixteen-year-old Sarah Longstroth and fourteen-year-old Nanny Longstroth, who were sisters. Joseph Smith officiated the wedding." (Wiki article on WR)

And allegedly marrying the wife of Orson Hyde certainly seems extremely odd and questionable, if true. Did Joseph object to that? He should have . . . . if true.

But how does the statement that Joseph officiated at WR's wedding of two young sisters in early '43 square with the idea he opposed polygamy?

And what MO was JT following that is so shady?

[larsenb]

No, I'm not. Terminal ballistics/Hyrum's face/death mask all tell me that only the smallest and lease muzzle energy handgun (Pepperbox pistol?...equivalent to a 22RL) would have caused so little external face damage. I don't see any small holes in the door, if it is actually the 'real door'. Any other experienced gun-guys think I'm wrong on this? PaulH?

I already gave my explanation for the shot angle to the chin, but it was ignored along with pretty much every other point I made.

I scanned all your previous posts since 9/15. The only thing I can find is, "Yes, I believe that a ball went through the door and struck Hyrum in the face." Regardless of the hole or door, would you please clarify how you would place Hyrum's head in a horizontal position to get the face shot angle?

Were the wounds in the Civil War skull images caused by mini-balls or .69 inch smooth-bore musket balls. Mini-ball damage was much worse than the musket balls, from what I've learned.

[IsaiahVision]

No, I'm not. Terminal ballistics/Hyrum's face/death mask all tell me that only the smallest and lease muzzle energy handgun (Pepperbox pistol?...equivalent to a 22RL) would have caused so little external face damage. I don't see any small holes in the door, if it is actually the 'real door'. Any other experienced gun-guys think I'm wrong on this? PaulH?

I already gave my explanation for the shot angle to the chin, but it was ignored along with pretty much every other point I made.

I scanned all your previous posts since 9/15. The only thing I can find is, "Yes, I believe that a ball went through the door and struck Hyrum in the face." Regardless of the hole or door, would you please clarify how you would place Hyrum's head in a horizontal position to get the face shot angle?

Were the wounds in the Civil War skull images caused by mini-balls or .69 inch smooth-bore musket balls. Mini-ball damage was much worse than the musket balls, from what I've learned.

I think you mean Minié ball? Yes, I generally agree; I read that.
I can't remember which body organs are 'inflexible' and are damaged more by gunshots. But, I know the brain is one organ that is inflexible.

[Bjǫrnúlfr]

A person with no leg to stand on says "lets ignore the evidence and go with how we feel". Which is what you said above.

I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions. I provided details that show that your theory (official story) is incorrect, you minimize and deflect. Based on your comments, you don't even know what the official story is. And you have no clue how Justin arrived at his conclusions. Which means we really cant have a meaning full discussion until you educate yourself.

You are late to the show, the questions you asked were asked by others earlier in the thread. Go back about 6-7 pages and start reading, several others beside myself have posted the answers to your questions.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just haven’t read any of my comments. I said I watched the documentary and two other videos from Justin, including the one that he made in response to the rebuttal video in the OP, which I also watched, along with several other rebuttal videos. So I have a very good idea of what is being claimed and how he arrived at his conclusions.

I haven’t ignored any of your questions or responses, other than not feeling inclined to respond to the YouTube video because you refuse to address any of the points I have made and instead keep making one false accusation against me after the other. And because I consider the question of the severity of damage that .69 musket ball would make to a head at close range to be pretty irrelevant (and I’ve explained why several times).

I read through the entire thread multiple times before I made my first post here, and my points were definitely not all addressed earlier. I don’t think any of them were. If you disagree and think I missed something, please point me to specific posts you believe address my points.

[IsaiahVision]

Brother, it might help to listen to the experienced 'gun-guys'. I asked you earlier what your personal firearms training was...with no reply. You obviously do not understand. ...which is ok, all of us started out the same.

There is a thing called 'muzzle energy'; this 'kinetic energy' bleeds off (diminishes) the farther out the distance or shot is. So, Hyrum being shot in the head with a 69 caliber ball at extreme close range is devastating; while a civil war solider being shot at 200-300 yards in the head is completely different story. You also don't know if that civil war head wound was from a ball that ricocheted off the ground or something.

To make the point, a 223 round (AR-15) at close range is as devastating (terminal ballistics) as a much larger bullet. Velocity is everything. But, at 150 yards (with a 16" barrel), the 223 round's kinetic energy is about same as the muzzle energy of a 9mm at point blank range. This results in significant diminishing terminal ballistics (wounds). At somewhere around 250-300 yards, that 223 round's kinetic energy has bled off so that the terminal ballistics is now no worse than being shot by a 22RL.

So, a close range 69 caliber headshot means the head literally explodes...as in nothing left (see below). Watch the prior Youtube video links that proves this happens. Please explain why Hyrum even has a head or face to make a death mask? Please explain Hyrum's chin shot angle?

I understand how kinetic energy works. There’s also a huge difference between the types of wounds that are created by an AR-15 and .69 musket ball. You can’t even compare the two.

Good grief, you completely missed my point. And I wasn't comparing a 223 vs a 69 caliber ball; nor even comparing the "wounds" of such. It was an example of bleeding off kinetic energy.

Smooth bore muskets aren’t accurate at 250 to 300 hundred yards. Most shots were fired much closer than that. Close range musket shots were very common during the civil war.

Whatever. This is from Wikipeadia on Flinklock rifles: "Based on the Jäger rifle, but with a much longer barrel, these were exceptionally accurate for their time, and had an effective range of approximately 250 m (820 ft).[18]". That is almost 300 yards! Average Civil War engagement range was 100 yards, according to a quick Google search.

You’re welcome to produce research that shows that people’s heads were blown off by musket balls when fired at close range.
There’s also a huge difference between shooting a stationary gel head than shooting a moving human head.

Sigh. Sorry to have to attach all the civil war skulls below. Respectfully, you do not know what you are talking about. I'd say that in the first picture the entire back and most of the skull was blown off? The second picture looks as if the skull has been 'put back together' with staples.

I have taken a dozen professional precision rifle (sniper) classes, one of which was when I was invited to our Sheriff's Office SWAT Team week-long sniper class. I have had medical doctors and true professionals, including former Marine Snipers, explain the realities and I have seen pictures/videos of headshots....the stuff you don't see on Google or YouTube.

Please stop making claims on stuff that you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

And please explain why you guys are fixated on a .69 musket ball, when the firearm that was used to fire through the door is unknown?

No, I'm not. Terminal ballistics/Hyrum's face/death mask all tell me that only the smallest and lease muzzle energy handgun (Pepperbox pistol?...equivalent to a 22RL) would have caused so little external face damage. I don't see any small holes in the door, if it is actually the 'real door'. Any other experienced gun-guys think I'm wrong on this? PaulH?

I already gave my explanation for the shot angle to the chin, but it was ignored along with pretty much every other point I made.

I scanned all your previous posts since 9/15. The only thing I can find is, "Yes, I believe that a ball went through the door and struck Hyrum in the face." Regardless of the hole or door, would you please clarify how you would place Hyrum's head in a horizontal position to get the face shot angle?

Unlike you, I don’t claim to be a “gun expert," but I do know the difference between a smooth bore musket and a rifle. But I don’t think you do, since you attempted to refute my factual statement that smooth bore muskets weren’t accurate at 200+ yards with a quote from a Wikipedia article about jaeger rifles. So please tell me again, who doesn’t know what they are talking about?

Good grief. Brother, are you reading what I am writing? I said I looked up Wikipeadia on Flintlock rifles. ...Not Wikipeadia on Jager rifles. Wikipeadia said that Flintlock rifles were "Based on the Jäger rifle..."

I have certain training, but certainly do not know everything. My training and experience is different than PaulH or larsenb. I am certainly not a historian or any kind of expert on black-powder.

I’m assuming that you can verify that each of the skulls from the Civil War you posted were damaged by smooth bore .69 musket balls at close range and not mini-balls, artillery, or some other means?

This is from: https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/ap ... eld-wounds

"According to statistics in the multi-volume Medical and Surgical History of the War of the Rebellion, published by the U.S. government between 1870 and 1888, the vast majority of battlefield wounds, 88 percent to be precise, were caused by rifle or musket fire."

"Twelve percent of gunshot wounds were caused by the .69-caliber smoothbore musket round, whereas 76 percent were inflicted by the more common .58-caliber "Minié" bullet (commonly, but incorrectly, called a ball), used in the rifled muskets of both armies. Between 1863 and 1865 fewer smoothbores were in use than was the case in 1861 and 1862. Hence, the number of injuries caused by .69-caliber rounds decreased dramatically, while those inflicted by Minié bullets rose."

You are correct, there is some guessing on the rounds used on the civil war skulls. The point is that there is massive damage. I'm not sure what mini-balls are, but it sure wasn't artillery!

And I would like to once again point out that I’m not disputing that .69 musket ball shots to the head don’t often significantly damage skulls.

Good to know.

And I’m sorry that you were unable to locate my answer to the question you posed earlier about the chin shot angle after you originally completely ignored it. I guess you’ll have to keep looking. It’s there. Let me know when you find it.

LOL. I did take time to scan your posts. I'm not looking any further.

[Bjǫrnúlfr]

Brother, it might help to listen to the experienced 'gun-guys'. I asked you earlier what your personal firearms training was...with no reply. You obviously do not understand. ...which is ok, all of us started out the same.

There is a thing called 'muzzle energy'; this 'kinetic energy' bleeds off (diminishes) the farther out the distance or shot is. So, Hyrum being shot in the head with a 69 caliber ball at extreme close range is devastating; while a civil war solider being shot at 200-300 yards in the head is completely different story. You also don't know if that civil war head wound was from a ball that ricocheted off the ground or something.

To make the point, a 223 round (AR-15) at close range is as devastating (terminal ballistics) as a much larger bullet. Velocity is everything. But, at 150 yards (with a 16" barrel), the 223 round's kinetic energy is about same as the muzzle energy of a 9mm at point blank range. This results in significant diminishing terminal ballistics (wounds). At somewhere around 250-300 yards, that 223 round's kinetic energy has bled off so that the terminal ballistics is now no worse than being shot by a 22RL.

So, a close range 69 caliber headshot means the head literally explodes...as in nothing left (see below). Watch the prior Youtube video links that proves this happens. Please explain why Hyrum even has a head or face to make a death mask? Please explain Hyrum's chin shot angle?

I understand how kinetic energy works. There’s also a huge difference between the types of wounds that are created by an AR-15 and .69 musket ball. You can’t even compare the two.

Good grief, you completely missed my point. And I wasn't comparing a 223 vs a 69 caliber ball; nor even comparing the "wounds" of such. It was an example of bleeding off kinetic energy.

Smooth bore muskets aren’t accurate at 250 to 300 hundred yards. Most shots were fired much closer than that. Close range musket shots were very common during the civil war.

Whatever. This is from Wikipeadia on Flinklock rifles: "Based on the Jäger rifle, but with a much longer barrel, these were exceptionally accurate for their time, and had an effective range of approximately 250 m (820 ft).[18]". That is almost 300 yards! Average Civil War engagement range was 100 yards, according to a quick Google search.

You’re welcome to produce research that shows that people’s heads were blown off by musket balls when fired at close range.
There’s also a huge difference between shooting a stationary gel head than shooting a moving human head.

Sigh. Sorry to have to attach all the civil war skulls below. Respectfully, you do not know what you are talking about. I'd say that in the first picture the entire back and most of the skull was blown off? The second picture looks as if the skull has been 'put back together' with staples.

I have taken a dozen professional precision rifle (sniper) classes, one of which was when I was invited to our Sheriff's Office SWAT Team week-long sniper class. I have had medical doctors and true professionals, including former Marine Snipers, explain the realities and I have seen pictures/videos of headshots....the stuff you don't see on Google or YouTube.

Please stop making claims on stuff that you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

And please explain why you guys are fixated on a .69 musket ball, when the firearm that was used to fire through the door is unknown?

No, I'm not. Terminal ballistics/Hyrum's face/death mask all tell me that only the smallest and lease muzzle energy handgun (Pepperbox pistol?...equivalent to a 22RL) would have caused so little external face damage. I don't see any small holes in the door, if it is actually the 'real door'. Any other experienced gun-guys think I'm wrong on this? PaulH?

I already gave my explanation for the shot angle to the chin, but it was ignored along with pretty much every other point I made.

I scanned all your previous posts since 9/15. The only thing I can find is, "Yes, I believe that a ball went through the door and struck Hyrum in the face." Regardless of the hole or door, would you please clarify how you would place Hyrum's head in a horizontal position to get the face shot angle?

Unlike you, I don’t claim to be a “gun expert," but I do know the difference between a smooth bore musket and a rifle. But I don’t think you do, since you attempted to refute my factual statement that smooth bore muskets weren’t accurate at 200+ yards with a quote from a Wikipedia article about jaeger rifles. So please tell me again, who doesn’t know what they are talking about?

Good grief. Brother, are you reading what I am writing? I said I looked up Wikipeadia on Flintlock rifles. ...Not Wikipeadia on Jager rifles. Wikipeadia said that Flintlock rifles were "Based on the Jäger rifle..."

I have certain training, but certainly do not know everything. My training and experience is different than PaulH or larsenb. I am certainly not a historian or any kind of expert on black-powder.

I’m assuming that you can verify that each of the skulls from the Civil War you posted were damaged by smooth bore .69 musket balls at close range and not mini-balls, artillery, or some other means?

This is from: https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/ap ... eld-wounds

"According to statistics in the multi-volume Medical and Surgical History of the War of the Rebellion, published by the U.S. government between 1870 and 1888, the vast majority of battlefield wounds, 88 percent to be precise, were caused by rifle or musket fire."

"Twelve percent of gunshot wounds were caused by the .69-caliber smoothbore musket round, whereas 76 percent were inflicted by the more common .58-caliber "Minié" bullet (commonly, but incorrectly, called a ball), used in the rifled muskets of both armies. Between 1863 and 1865 fewer smoothbores were in use than was the case in 1861 and 1862. Hence, the number of injuries caused by .69-caliber rounds decreased dramatically, while those inflicted by Minié bullets rose."

You are correct, there is some guessing on the rounds used on the civil war skulls. The point is that there is massive damage. I'm not sure what mini-balls are, but it sure wasn't artillery!

And I would like to once again point out that I’m not disputing that .69 musket ball shots to the head don’t often significantly damage skulls.

Good to know.

And I’m sorry that you were unable to locate my answer to the question you posed earlier about the chin shot angle after you originally completely ignored it. I guess you’ll have to keep looking. It’s there. Let me know when you find it.

LOL. I did take time to scan your posts. I'm not looking any further.

You still don’t seem to know the difference between a smooth bore musket and a rifle. And you really don’t know what a mini-ball (or minie bullet) is and how it is different than a musket ball?

As far as not being able to find the answer I gave you earlier, it was literally in the response comment I made where I quoted your question. You obviously completely ignored it. But just so you don’t think that I didn’t respond, here it is again:

If Hyrum was shot in the back a second before the shot came through the door, he may have flailed backwards into an awkward position before being struck in the face. He may have also been shot a second time while lying on the ground from the stairwell.

[larsenb]

“reasonable to assume the mob were all standing”; Also reasonable to assume there may have been more than one person who kneeled to get a better shot because the upper portions of the door opening were occupied by musket barrels. And it would be easier to do this with a hand gun.

So, between the Carthage door and the banister railing is 35". When I take a kneeling position, arms extended with my handgun, I'm 48" in length. I think that is a math problem?

I’m not totally convinced that all of Hyrum’s and JT’s wounds were caused by handguns.

So, you are backtracking on your previous statement? Or, are you saying, like PaulH, that the hip shot is an 'unknown'? ...But, most of the inside shots on Hyrum and JT were from small arms?

A really big lack in this whole JT/WR assassination model in my strongly held view, is how you integrate JTs wounds into it along with the actions and death of Joseph Smith, coupled with the wounding of 3 of the mobbers by shots from the door, allegedly by JS.

I believe the conspiracy plan was to have the mob take out Joseph. They didn't plan on JS and Hyrum being 'armed' and shooting back. Because of that, like the night before, the mob got chicken and was starting to retreat ... and also tend to their wounded?

If the original conspiracy was to go through, JT has to disarm Joseph and Hyrum and then turn them over to the mob. It was NOT an assassination; that would have been all very easy. It was a hostage situation to disarm and to forward the 'Conspiracy to Commit Murder' that was already 'in play'. Because Hyrum 'resisted', the gunfight inside the room took place.

Conspiracy to commit murder if you:
- agree with one or more other people to intentionally and unlawfully kill someone, and
- at least one of the persons involved commits some act to further the agreement.

Again, there is NOTHING I’m aware of that indicate WR or JT exhibited any similar behavior, either before or after the assassination. And certainly nothing that shows they would have the mentality to murder their leaders.

One more time...BEHAVIOR and MOTIVE are not required by a court to necessarily prove a crime by someone or someone be a murder.

The science of 9/11 doesn’t lie.

Neither does forensics, terminal ballistics, angles, and common sense.

“We don't know the 'motives' of 9/11, therefore, there was 'no crime'?” But there are fairly clear-cut motives that have been reasonable attributed to those planning, executing and covering up 9/11.

No, there wasn't, especially early on. And if there are known motives/evidence, why has nobody ever been indicted??

Do you think the mob was generated just to deflect the blame from WR and JT?? Very strange position to take.

Seriously? Have you not heard of 'Conspiracy to commit murder'? JFK and RFK?

Regarding your use of the term ‘smoking gun’, weapons grade nano thermite was actually identified in WTC dust samples, by a real investigation. Your under-the-chin shot is not physical evidence, it is a concocted scenario.

The angle of the chin shot is part of forensics. Maybe you should talk to the detective about that. The bodies of the Smiths and JT are in the ground; they are part of the physical evidence. Maybe we should exhume them?

"The detective pretty much agreed with almost all of Griffin's conclusions." But the detective is making a pretty drastic leap to think WR or JT pulled the trigger.

Again, I doubt you watched the Griffin films several times. You are completely wrong because the detective did not 100% agree with Griffin and offered his own theory...WHICH DID NOT INCLUDE WR OR JT BEING THE MURDERS.

The detective did say that Griffin's theory was very 'possible'. Sir, please go watch the films again with an open mind.

“So, between the Carthage door and the banister railing is 35 in. When I take a kneeling position, arms extended with my handgun, I'm 48 inches in length. I think that is a math problem?” Someone could have been kneeling parallel to NS. They may have kneeled into a partially open door. We simply don’t have all the details to exclude all the possible scenarios.

"So, you are backtracking on your previous statement? Or, are you saying, like PaulH, that the hip shot is an 'unknown'? ...But, most of the inside shots on Hyrum and JT were from small arms?” I’m dealing with possibilities. We simply don’t know one way or the other, because of incomplete data.

“If the original conspiracy was to go through, JT has to disarm Joseph and Hyrum and then turn them over to the mob. It was NOT an assassination; that would have been all very easy. It was a hostage situation to disarm and to forward the 'Conspiracy to Commit Murder' that was already 'in play'. Because Hyrum 'resisted', the gunfight inside the room took place.” Your conspiracy is simply an abductive exercise in speculation. Nice story. But no proof.

“One more time...BEHAVIOR and MOTIVE are not required by a court to necessarily prove a crime by someone or someone be a murder.” The problem with this is that if a prosecutor trying to convict WR and JT of murder, ignored the possibility of the mobbers having hand guns and couldn’t establish that WR and JT had their own handguns, this would never fly. Couple this with the reality that there really was a mob intent on murdering JS. Lots of luck with your scenario LOL.

larsenb: But there are fairly clear-cut motives that have been reasonable attributed to those planning, executing and covering up 9/11.
IV: “No, there wasn't, especially early on. And if there are known motives/evidence, why has nobody ever been indicted??”
larsenb: Yes, plausible motives based on evidence have been attributed to the probable perpetrators. I could enumerate them. Ask yourself, why weren’t the probable perpetrators of the JFK assassination ever indicted?? Are you implying you believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the ‘lone gunman’??! My, my.

larsenb: Do you think the mob was generated just to deflect the blame from WR and JT?? Very strange position to take.
IV: “Seriously? Have you not heard of 'Conspiracy to commit murder'? JFK and RFK?”
larsen: I don’t think you understood my initial comment . . . I hope . . . . otherwise your response is unintelligible to me.

“The angle of the chin shot is part of forensics. Maybe you should talk to the detective about that. The bodies of the Smiths and JT are in the ground; they are part of the physical evidence. Maybe we should exhume them?”
There was no forensic investigation of the crime scene or the bodies near the time of the murders. The detective is going on very little surviving evidence outside of the death masks. Did he see the exhumed bodies? No he did not. And so far, the photos of the skulls produced here are really poor quality where you can barely even discern the skull outlines.

IV: "The detective pretty much agreed with almost all of Griffin's conclusions."
larsenb: But the detective is making a pretty drastic leap to think WR or JT pulled the trigger.
IV: “You are completely wrong because the detective did not 100% agree with Griffin and offered his own theory...WHICH DID NOT INCLUDE WR OR JT BEING THE MURDERS.”
larsenb: Ah, really!! My confidence in his findings just took an up-tick. Good to know. I’m also curious about what the detective's theory was. That would be really interesting. At least give me a video hyperlink, time-stamp.

[IsaiahVision]

Good grief, you completely missed my point. And I wasn't comparing a 223 vs a 69 caliber ball; nor even comparing the "wounds" of such. It was an example of bleeding off kinetic energy.




Whatever. This is from Wikipeadia on Flinklock rifles: "Based on the Jäger rifle, but with a much longer barrel, these were exceptionally accurate for their time, and had an effective range of approximately 250 m (820 ft).[18]". That is almost 300 yards! Average Civil War engagement range was 100 yards, according to a quick Google search.




Sigh. Sorry to have to attach all the civil war skulls below. Respectfully, you do not know what you are talking about. I'd say that in the first picture the entire back and most of the skull was blown off? The second picture looks as if the skull has been 'put back together' with staples.

I have taken a dozen professional precision rifle (sniper) classes, one of which was when I was invited to our Sheriff's Office SWAT Team week-long sniper class. I have had medical doctors and true professionals, including former Marine Snipers, explain the realities and I have seen pictures/videos of headshots....the stuff you don't see on Google or YouTube.

Please stop making claims on stuff that you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.




No, I'm not. Terminal ballistics/Hyrum's face/death mask all tell me that only the smallest and lease muzzle energy handgun (Pepperbox pistol?...equivalent to a 22RL) would have caused so little external face damage. I don't see any small holes in the door, if it is actually the 'real door'. Any other experienced gun-guys think I'm wrong on this? PaulH?




I scanned all your previous posts since 9/15. The only thing I can find is, "Yes, I believe that a ball went through the door and struck Hyrum in the face." Regardless of the hole or door, would you please clarify how you would place Hyrum's head in a horizontal position to get the face shot angle?

Unlike you, I don’t claim to be a “gun expert," but I do know the difference between a smooth bore musket and a rifle. But I don’t think you do, since you attempted to refute my factual statement that smooth bore muskets weren’t accurate at 200+ yards with a quote from a Wikipedia article about jaeger rifles. So please tell me again, who doesn’t know what they are talking about?

Good grief. Brother, are you reading what I am writing? I said I looked up Wikipeadia on Flintlock rifles. ...Not Wikipeadia on Jager rifles. Wikipeadia said that Flintlock rifles were "Based on the Jäger rifle..."

I have certain training, but certainly do not know everything. My training and experience is different than PaulH or larsenb. I am certainly not a historian or any kind of expert on black-powder.

I’m assuming that you can verify that each of the skulls from the Civil War you posted were damaged by smooth bore .69 musket balls at close range and not mini-balls, artillery, or some other means?

This is from: https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/ap ... eld-wounds

"According to statistics in the multi-volume Medical and Surgical History of the War of the Rebellion, published by the U.S. government between 1870 and 1888, the vast majority of battlefield wounds, 88 percent to be precise, were caused by rifle or musket fire."

"Twelve percent of gunshot wounds were caused by the .69-caliber smoothbore musket round, whereas 76 percent were inflicted by the more common .58-caliber "Minié" bullet (commonly, but incorrectly, called a ball), used in the rifled muskets of both armies. Between 1863 and 1865 fewer smoothbores were in use than was the case in 1861 and 1862. Hence, the number of injuries caused by .69-caliber rounds decreased dramatically, while those inflicted by Minié bullets rose."

You are correct, there is some guessing on the rounds used on the civil war skulls. The point is that there is massive damage. I'm not sure what mini-balls are, but it sure wasn't artillery!

And I would like to once again point out that I’m not disputing that .69 musket ball shots to the head don’t often significantly damage skulls.

Good to know.

And I’m sorry that you were unable to locate my answer to the question you posed earlier about the chin shot angle after you originally completely ignored it. I guess you’ll have to keep looking. It’s there. Let me know when you find it.

LOL. I did take time to scan your posts. I'm not looking any further.

You still don’t seem to know the difference between a smooth bore musket and a rifle. And you really don’t know what a mini-ball (or minie bullet) is and how it is different than a musket ball?

As far as not being able to find the answer I gave you earlier, it was literally in the response comment I made where I quoted your question. You obviously completely ignored it. But just so you don’t think that I didn’t respond, here it is again:

If Hyrum was shot in the back a second before the shot came through the door, he may have flailed backwards into an awkward position before being struck in the face. He may have also been shot a second time while lying on the ground from the stairwell.

I admit zero to little experience with black powder firearms; however, PaulH knows a LOT more about black powder than I do. I've recently read about Minie; ...conical shaped, right? Never heard it called mini-ball before.

Thank you for clarifying. I did try to find your theory. If Hyrum was shot in the back first, I would think there should be a lot more blood on his lower abdomen clothing, right? ...Just like his upper shirt and vest? I believe there is practically no indications of bleeding on his lower torso. Meaning, that shot was most likely made post-mordum?

Second, all the witness statements said Hyrum was shot in the face first. So, you believe JT and WR's statements are incorrect?

[IsaiahVision]

IV: "The detective pretty much agreed with almost all of Griffin's conclusions."
larsenb: But the detective is making a pretty drastic leap to think WR or JT pulled the trigger.
IV: “You are completely wrong because the detective did not 100% agree with Griffin and offered his own theory...WHICH DID NOT INCLUDE WR OR JT BEING THE MURDERS.”
larsenb: Ah, really!! My confidence in his findings just took an up-tick. Good to know. I’m also curious about what the detective's theory was. That would be really interesting. At least give me a video hyperlink, time-stamp.

LOL. Well, at least you have a good sense of sarcastic humor! Sorry, I can't do anymore research for you. ...and you already watched all Griffin's videos multiple times. It would be good to review what a true murder detective thinks about all the theories, evidence, and testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5sDJdd ... KJSPodcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8KY_j0 ... KJSPodcast

[Bronco73idi]

“reasonable to assume the mob were all standing”; Also reasonable to assume there may have been more than one person who kneeled to get a better shot because the upper portions of the door opening were occupied by musket barrels. And it would be easier to do this with a hand gun.

So, between the Carthage door and the banister railing is 35". When I take a kneeling position, arms extended with my handgun, I'm 48" in length. I think that is a math problem?

I’m not totally convinced that all of Hyrum’s and JT’s wounds were caused by handguns.

So, you are backtracking on your previous statement? Or, are you saying, like PaulH, that the hip shot is an 'unknown'? ...But, most of the inside shots on Hyrum and JT were from small arms?

A really big lack in this whole JT/WR assassination model in my strongly held view, is how you integrate JTs wounds into it along with the actions and death of Joseph Smith, coupled with the wounding of 3 of the mobbers by shots from the door, allegedly by JS.

I believe the conspiracy plan was to have the mob take out Joseph. They didn't plan on JS and Hyrum being 'armed' and shooting back. Because of that, like the night before, the mob got chicken and was starting to retreat ... and also tend to their wounded?

If the original conspiracy was to go through, JT has to disarm Joseph and Hyrum and then turn them over to the mob. It was NOT an assassination; that would have been all very easy. It was a hostage situation to disarm and to forward the 'Conspiracy to Commit Murder' that was already 'in play'. Because Hyrum 'resisted', the gunfight inside the room took place.

Conspiracy to commit murder if you:
- agree with one or more other people to intentionally and unlawfully kill someone, and
- at least one of the persons involved commits some act to further the agreement.

Again, there is NOTHING I’m aware of that indicate WR or JT exhibited any similar behavior, either before or after the assassination. And certainly nothing that shows they would have the mentality to murder their leaders.

One more time...BEHAVIOR and MOTIVE are not required by a court to necessarily prove a crime by someone or someone be a murder.

The science of 9/11 doesn’t lie.

Neither does forensics, terminal ballistics, angles, and common sense.

“We don't know the 'motives' of 9/11, therefore, there was 'no crime'?” But there are fairly clear-cut motives that have been reasonable attributed to those planning, executing and covering up 9/11.

No, there wasn't, especially early on. And if there are known motives/evidence, why has nobody ever been indicted??

Do you think the mob was generated just to deflect the blame from WR and JT?? Very strange position to take.

Seriously? Have you not heard of 'Conspiracy to commit murder'? JFK and RFK?

Regarding your use of the term ‘smoking gun’, weapons grade nano thermite was actually identified in WTC dust samples, by a real investigation. Your under-the-chin shot is not physical evidence, it is a concocted scenario.

The angle of the chin shot is part of forensics. Maybe you should talk to the detective about that. The bodies of the Smiths and JT are in the ground; they are part of the physical evidence. Maybe we should exhume them?

"The detective pretty much agreed with almost all of Griffin's conclusions." But the detective is making a pretty drastic leap to think WR or JT pulled the trigger.

Again, I doubt you watched the Griffin films several times. You are completely wrong because the detective did not 100% agree with Griffin and offered his own theory...WHICH DID NOT INCLUDE WR OR JT BEING THE MURDERS.

The detective did say that Griffin's theory was very 'possible'. Sir, please go watch the films again with an open mind.

“So, between the Carthage door and the banister railing is 35 in. When I take a kneeling position, arms extended with my handgun, I'm 48 inches in length. I think that is a math problem?” Someone could have been kneeling parallel to NS. They may have kneeled into a partially open door. We simply don’t have all the details to exclude all the possible scenarios.

"So, you are backtracking on your previous statement? Or, are you saying, like PaulH, that the hip shot is an 'unknown'? ...But, most of the inside shots on Hyrum and JT were from small arms?” I’m dealing with possibilities. We simply don’t know one way or the other, because of incomplete data.

“If the original conspiracy was to go through, JT has to disarm Joseph and Hyrum and then turn them over to the mob. It was NOT an assassination; that would have been all very easy. It was a hostage situation to disarm and to forward the 'Conspiracy to Commit Murder' that was already 'in play'. Because Hyrum 'resisted', the gunfight inside the room took place.” Your conspiracy is simply an abductive exercise in speculation. Nice story. But no proof.

“One more time...BEHAVIOR and MOTIVE are not required by a court to necessarily prove a crime by someone or someone be a murder.” The problem with this is that if a prosecutor trying to convict WR and JT of murder, ignored the possibility of the mobbers having hand guns and couldn’t establish that WR and JT had their own handguns, this would never fly. Couple this with the reality that there really was a mob intent on murdering JS. Lots of luck with your scenario LOL.

larsenb: But there are fairly clear-cut motives that have been reasonable attributed to those planning, executing and covering up 9/11.
IV: “No, there wasn't, especially early on. And if there are known motives/evidence, why has nobody ever been indicted??”
larsenb: Yes, plausible motives based on evidence have been attributed to the probable perpetrators. I could enumerate them. Ask yourself, why weren’t the probable perpetrators of the JFK assassination ever indicted?? Are you implying you believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the ‘lone gunman’??! My, my.

larsenb: Do you think the mob was generated just to deflect the blame from WR and JT?? Very strange position to take.
IV: “Seriously? Have you not heard of 'Conspiracy to commit murder'? JFK and RFK?”
larsen: I don’t think you understood my initial comment . . . I hope . . . . otherwise your response is unintelligible to me.

“The angle of the chin shot is part of forensics. Maybe you should talk to the detective about that. The bodies of the Smiths and JT are in the ground; they are part of the physical evidence. Maybe we should exhume them?”
There was no forensic investigation of the crime scene or the bodies near the time of the murders. The detective is going on very little surviving evidence outside of the death masks. Did he see the exhumed bodies? No he did not. And so far, the photos of the skulls produced here are really poor quality where you can barely even discern the skull outlines.

IV: "The detective pretty much agreed with almost all of Griffin's conclusions."
larsenb: But the detective is making a pretty drastic leap to think WR or JT pulled the trigger.
IV: “You are completely wrong because the detective did not 100% agree with Griffin and offered his own theory...WHICH DID NOT INCLUDE WR OR JT BEING THE MURDERS.”
larsenb: Ah, really!! My confidence in his findings just took an up-tick. Good to know. I’m also curious about what the detective's theory was. That would be really interesting. At least give me a video hyperlink, time-stamp.

I think you are doing an excellent job trying to put logic into their mole hill of concerns.

These guys really think Jospeh was killed because someone wanted to commit adultery. Look at how Jospeh handled John C Bennet. He had sex to help cure his married female patients.

Jospeh got killed because of Bogus money, we call it counterfeiting.

Governor Ford believed the he was innocent but the mob (New York bankers) wanted him dead so Ford hid like the coward he was.

Jospeh had the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed, because it was printing Bogus money. That action wasn’t enough to please the mob.

If they get rid of the community then the problem will go away.

All of the men who went west were charged with Bogus money charges. But we see no evidence of any issues of Bogus money in Utah. The ones who hate BY said he channeled that through his son who lived in New York but all evidence shows that the Son was a financial burden to the early church so it doesn’t add up and the BY haters won’t talk about that angle.


It is a losing battle with these people, they are emotionally attached to hate polygamy. All of the problems have to be polygamy. They can not see that a polygamist marriage is the thing Jesus Christ himself likened to the kingdom of heaven, ie the everlasting covenant…..

Matthew 25:1

[Reluctant Watchman]

I thought this FB post was really quite insightful:

I had a thought or impression a month ago or so, and was reminded as we sang the hymn a couple of weeks ago at church, about the hymn “Praise to the Man.“ As I reviewed it with new spiritual eyes, it stuck out to me that the message has been there the whole time.

The hymn was written by W.W. Phelps who died in 1872 in SLC. In August of 1844, the poem was published, Phelps wrote a poem called “Joseph Smith“ which later became “Praise to the Man,“ the poem being inspired as consequence of Joseph's murder for Joseph's eulogy. It therefore is a historical record of what happened through the eyes of Phelps, his the thoughts and feelings, and even a prophetic message from Phelps perspective.

Here is the message, look at what he said;
“Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins..."

Assassins? Who are they? Why didn't he just say “Shed by the mob“? Since he wasn't straight forward with the mob murdering Joseph (and Hyrum), then who else might he be talking about?
We get a further description of who these assassins could be from words in the chorus;
“Traitors“

What is a traitor? “A person who betrays someone or something, such as a friend, cause, or principle.“
Why would he use the “Traitors“ who are these traitors?

Next word: “Tyrants“

What is a tyrant? “A usurper, one who gains power and rules extralegally, distinguished from kings elevated by election or succession.

Why would he say “Tyrants“ who are these tyrants? Who usurp the power? Who sought for succession?
By the way, if you sing the whole hymn, you repeat the chorus (also known as the “Hook"or in other words the emphasised message of the song, the part you are more likely to remember) four times, we therefore sing those words four times each.

Traitors and tyrants,
traitors and tyrants,
traitors and tyrants,
traitors and tyrants.

What do we need to know from this repeating message, what is so important about it?

To concluded, this group knows who the traitors and tyrants are.
Some in these times, may be asking
“What can I do?“
or “What should I do?“

Here is what one can do, and it comes from the last verse of the hymn!(And the Spirit causes me to shake as I write this, as a witness of it's validity and importance)

“Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know “Brother Joseph” again.“

Therefore this is something one can do,“Wake up!“ and then wake up the world. The time is now coming to pass for of the Phelps prophetic phase, that million shall know who Brother Joseph really is. That he is not a polygamous (Thank you Michelle Brady Stone and others), that he is a true prophet of God, and when he comes back, we will know he is the man, the man who communed with Jehovah, that Joseph is the anointed messenger, the messenger of the covenant. I know the Book of Mormon is true and I praise Joseph for bringing it forth, and recognized him as a true prophet of God.

Let's wake up the world! Ether 8:24.

Rodney Sohn

[IsaiahVision]

I thought this FB post was really quite insightful:

I had a thought or impression a month ago or so, and was reminded as we sang the hymn a couple of weeks ago at church, about the hymn “Praise to the Man.“ As I reviewed it with new spiritual eyes, it stuck out to me that the message has been there the whole time.

The hymn was written by W.W. Phelps who died in 1872 in SLC. In August of 1844, the poem was published, Phelps wrote a poem called “Joseph Smith“ which later became “Praise to the Man,“ the poem being inspired as consequence of Joseph's murder for Joseph's eulogy. It therefore is a historical record of what happened through the eyes of Phelps, his the thoughts and feelings, and even a prophetic message from Phelps perspective.

Here is the message, look at what he said;
“Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins..."

Assassins? Who are they? Why didn't he just say “Shed by the mob“? Since he wasn't straight forward with the mob murdering Joseph (and Hyrum), then who else might he be talking about?
We get a further description of who these assassins could be from words in the chorus;
“Traitors“

What is a traitor? “A person who betrays someone or something, such as a friend, cause, or principle.“
Why would he use the “Traitors“ who are these traitors?

Next word: “Tyrants“

What is a tyrant? “A usurper, one who gains power and rules extralegally, distinguished from kings elevated by election or succession.

Why would he say “Tyrants“ who are these tyrants? Who usurp the power? Who sought for succession?
By the way, if you sing the whole hymn, you repeat the chorus (also known as the “Hook"or in other words the emphasised message of the song, the part you are more likely to remember) four times, we therefore sing those words four times each.

Traitors and tyrants,
traitors and tyrants,
traitors and tyrants,
traitors and tyrants.

What do we need to know from this repeating message, what is so important about it?

To concluded, this group knows who the traitors and tyrants are.
Some in these times, may be asking
“What can I do?“
or “What should I do?“

Here is what one can do, and it comes from the last verse of the hymn!(And the Spirit causes me to shake as I write this, as a witness of it's validity and importance)

“Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know “Brother Joseph” again.“

Therefore this is something one can do,“Wake up!“ and then wake up the world. The time is now coming to pass for of the Phelps prophetic phase, that million shall know who Brother Joseph really is. That he is not a polygamous (Thank you Michelle Brady Stone and others), that he is a true prophet of God, and when he comes back, we will know he is the man, the man who communed with Jehovah, that Joseph is the anointed messenger, the messenger of the covenant. I know the Book of Mormon is true and I praise Joseph for bringing it forth, and recognized him as a true prophet of God.

Let's wake up the world! Ether 8:24.

Rodney Sohn

I just looked the song up myself; you are right. Certainly not 'proof', but very interesting.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I just looked the song up myself; you are right. Certainly not 'proof', but very interesting.

The use of the words “traitors” and “tyrants” is the most fascinating part. Mobs were not traitors.

Traitor :
a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

WW Phelps probably alluded to far more than any of us are aware of.

Can you imagine being any of these traitorous and tyrannical men and singing this song w/ the saints?

[Bronco73idi]

I thought this FB post was really quite insightful:

I had a thought or impression a month ago or so, and was reminded as we sang the hymn a couple of weeks ago at church, about the hymn “Praise to the Man.“ As I reviewed it with new spiritual eyes, it stuck out to me that the message has been there the whole time.

The hymn was written by W.W. Phelps who died in 1872 in SLC. In August of 1844, the poem was published, Phelps wrote a poem called “Joseph Smith“ which later became “Praise to the Man,“ the poem being inspired as consequence of Joseph's murder for Joseph's eulogy. It therefore is a historical record of what happened through the eyes of Phelps, his the thoughts and feelings, and even a prophetic message from Phelps perspective.

Here is the message, look at what he said;
“Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins..."

Assassins? Who are they? Why didn't he just say “Shed by the mob“? Since he wasn't straight forward with the mob murdering Joseph (and Hyrum), then who else might he be talking about?
We get a further description of who these assassins could be from words in the chorus;
“Traitors“

What is a traitor? “A person who betrays someone or something, such as a friend, cause, or principle.“
Why would he use the “Traitors“ who are these traitors?

Next word: “Tyrants“

What is a tyrant? “A usurper, one who gains power and rules extralegally, distinguished from kings elevated by election or succession.

Why would he say “Tyrants“ who are these tyrants? Who usurp the power? Who sought for succession?
By the way, if you sing the whole hymn, you repeat the chorus (also known as the “Hook"or in other words the emphasised message of the song, the part you are more likely to remember) four times, we therefore sing those words four times each.

Traitors and tyrants,
traitors and tyrants,
traitors and tyrants,
traitors and tyrants.

What do we need to know from this repeating message, what is so important about it?

To concluded, this group knows who the traitors and tyrants are.
Some in these times, may be asking
“What can I do?“
or “What should I do?“

Here is what one can do, and it comes from the last verse of the hymn!(And the Spirit causes me to shake as I write this, as a witness of it's validity and importance)

“Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know “Brother Joseph” again.“

Therefore this is something one can do,“Wake up!“ and then wake up the world. The time is now coming to pass for of the Phelps prophetic phase, that million shall know who Brother Joseph really is. That he is not a polygamous (Thank you Michelle Brady Stone and others), that he is a true prophet of God, and when he comes back, we will know he is the man, the man who communed with Jehovah, that Joseph is the anointed messenger, the messenger of the covenant. I know the Book of Mormon is true and I praise Joseph for bringing it forth, and recognized him as a true prophet of God.

Let's wake up the world! Ether 8:24.

Rodney Sohn

Cherry picking, why did he follow who you deem “traitors and tyrants” of that song?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Cherry picking, why did he follow who you deem “traitors and tyrants” of that song?

No idea. But the irony is beautiful.