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Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 24th, 2023, 8:26 am
by Robin Hood
ransomme wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 6:27 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 1:44 am
tmac wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2023, 3:56 pm
As proudly reported by Deseret News (loud and proud on this subject), according to the UN, and its sustainable goals experts, the very happiest people and countries in the world are also the very most liberal and socialistic.
https://www.deseret.com/u-s-world/2023/ ... y-un-group
It's funny, because I have spent a fair amount of time in Scandanavia, and I guess I might be inclined to define happiness differently than they do. But if never having to make a decision, because they essentially all made for you, and never having to worry about money (because that's covered too), equals happiness, then I guess they're in good shape -- as their uber-happy populations continue to stagnate and slump in decline.
None of the Scandinavian countries are socialist. In fact, there isn't a socialist country in Europe these days.
Some have social democratic leanings in some aspects of their society, but they're not socialist in any true sense of the word. Their default is classic liberalism/capitalism.
North Korea and China are examples of socialist societies.
They have changed the meaning of socialism. Today when people say socialism they really mean welfarism, social safety net. A political socialism rather than an economic one.
I see only one major factor why Finland keeps being crowned as the happiest country, and that is that Finland was never the happiest country before I moved here. Just saying....
Seriously though, the key to happiness in the Nordics (Scandinavia is the less correct term) is that they have lower expectations. People are more content really than happy. I guess being more content just means that they are less unhappy than others.
I think Finland is very different from Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
Certainly if the language is anything to go by!
Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 24th, 2023, 8:29 am
by Luke
tmac wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 8:20 am
So, there's Marxism, communism, and socialism. They may all share some of the same characteristics, but in varying degrees. What, if any, distinction do you make among them?
Socialism and communism pre-dated Marx.
Those who held to those ideas had different opinions about what those things meant (hence all the confusion).
Marx called them “Utopian Socialists” as he thought that the theoreticians of these ideals could only long for such conditions and work towards them, whilst he claimed that his theories “proved” that socialism and communism were inevitable, hence the appellation of “Scientific Socialism” as opposed to “Utopian Socialism”.
He also set forth his own opinions on what these things meant, and as stated, they differ from what others thought.
Also, in his theories, the words “socialism” and “communism” were practically interchangeable.
There are still those who hold to ideas of socialism and communism in a completely non-Marxist sense.
Everyone has their own idea about what these things mean, but there tends to be the common ideas of “fairness”, “equality”, etc. (whatever those things mean).
Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 24th, 2023, 8:29 am
by ransomme
tmac wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 7:05 am
My own simplistic, working definition of socialism has to do with the extent to which Government injects itself into both economics and regulation, and continually seeks to consolidate and centralize power and control.
When government dictates everything you can and can’t do with your property, and/or in your business, and taxes economic activity at a very high level to re-distribute wealth, and “level the economic playing field” from top to bottom, and proactively seeks to vastly reduce financial incentive for economic performance, while providing some level of subsistence to essentially everyone, that is my simplistic, working definition of socialism — which is also how the U.S. and Canada are strongly leaning. I consider the UN to be essentially the epitome of socialistic values.
The concept of liberalism is another can of worms. But in my view, contemporary social liberalism involves policies that tolerate and encourage uninhibited sexual freedom and expression, complete equality, and lack of any traditional moral or religious values or structure.
It is curious, though, that all you Brits seem to have a very different working definition and understanding of these concepts.
That is political socialism, enacted through policy. Economic socialism is more fundamental to how the economy functions, how good are produced and distributed, ownership, etc.
And the Brits still have royal families. The ultimate welfare junkies
Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 24th, 2023, 8:33 am
by Hogmeister
Many are happy living by the work of others and feel they are entitled to it to boot. We have many of them here in Sweden. Fortunately it is never a sustainable society (Elder Christofferson).
Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 24th, 2023, 8:33 am
by ransomme
Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 8:26 am
ransomme wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 6:27 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 1:44 am
None of the Scandinavian countries are socialist. In fact, there isn't a socialist country in Europe these days.
Some have social democratic leanings in some aspects of their society, but they're not socialist in any true sense of the word. Their default is classic liberalism/capitalism.
North Korea and China are examples of socialist societies.
They have changed the meaning of socialism. Today when people say socialism they really mean welfarism, social safety net. A political socialism rather than an economic one.
I see only one major factor why Finland keeps being crowned as the happiest country, and that is that Finland was never the happiest country before I moved here. Just saying....
Seriously though, the key to happiness in the Nordics (Scandinavia is the less correct term) is that they have lower expectations. People are more content really than happy. I guess being more content just means that they are less unhappy than others.
I think Finland is very different from Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
Certainly if the language is anything to go by!
Fo sure!!!!!!!!!!
But Norway and Finland have a lot in common... The same bad neighbors.
.
Seriously though there are many similarities, but Finland culture stand apart a bit.
Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 24th, 2023, 6:24 pm
by TheDuke
I disagree that most European countries are not socialist because of economy. they are socialist. Perhaps money is generated by capitalists, but when a huge, huge chunk is taken by the government powers for redistribution. when the government decides outdoor farming is illegal due to their climate pledges. When everything you basically need is taken from the capitalists and given by the government. It is fully socialist.
I mean socialists never attempted to create money. they always took it. when there was no one to take it from, they took it from the people and made them poorer.
I would suggest that maybe there is a bar we could set to define economic socialism. Maybe a GDP percentage of government take? Or magnitude of the government handouts and subsites? or maybe the people's ability to affect change?
The Obama and Biden folks are pushing US to be socialist. The only real people pushing back are the communists like Bernie and AOC that want more and call it communism w/o the communes.
Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 25th, 2023, 1:21 am
by Niemand
TheDuke wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 6:24 pm
I disagree that most European countries are not socialist because of economy. they are socialist. Perhaps money is generated by capitalists, but when a huge, huge chunk is taken by the government powers for redistribution. when the government decides outdoor farming is illegal due to their climate pledges. When everything you basically need is taken from the capitalists and given by the government. It is fully socialist.
Noam Chomsky – who is firmly on the left – has illustrated one of the main problems with most western countries, i.e. that profit is private and debt is public. Even outside the west. The perfect example is Russia's Gazprom. The oil and gas pipes are publicly owned and maintained but the product which comes out of the other end goes into the pockets of a few people including Vladimir Putin.
Chomsky on the other hand got the Covid jag thing utterly wrong but he at least got this right.
The little man in Europe (not the best of phrases) is currently having to deal with the combined forces of government regulation and corporate aggression. Small business can barely turn a profit now. Big business can. And the public pays in both cases.
Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 25th, 2023, 6:51 am
by Fight for the right
Socialism and Communism. Two words Ezra Taft Benson hated but used a lot in his talks warning against them.
Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 25th, 2023, 8:20 am
by tmac
Over time the model has been tweaked to the point that the economic model of the day is socialism, coupled with crony capitalism, to fund huge, out-of-control, micro-managing government. And that is essentially my working definition of modern socialism.
Re: Socialists Claim that the Most Socialistic Countries are Happiest
Posted: March 25th, 2023, 2:33 pm
by Niemand
tmac wrote: ↑March 25th, 2023, 8:20 am
Over time the model has been tweaked to the point that the economic model of the day is socialism, coupled with crony capitalism, to fund huge, out-of-control, micro-managing government. And that is essentially my working definition of modern socialism.
Benito Mussolini himself defined Fascism as the merger of the corporate and the political, which is exactly what we see today... but it is obviously not Fascism in the traditional sense since it is global in focus.
Maybe we should be looking at globalism as a toxic form of nationalism instead. (I'm not against all forms of nationalism by any means.) Its aim is to produce a global nation by all methods at its disposal, even when that project is harmful to both its supporters and the unwitting global public. This includes undermining the social and economic structures which uphold the remnants of civilisation in many places.
